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(CNN)   Preacher wishes people would stop dressing so badly for church, because while Jesus may love you, he hates that coat, and those shoes... jeez   (religion.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 206
    More: Silly, Sloppy Sabbath, Windsor Castle, National Catholic Register, Queen of England, dress codes  
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4174 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Apr 2014 at 9:51 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



206 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-04-22 08:04:28 AM  
Johnny, what can you make of this?
 
2014-04-22 08:18:55 AM  
I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.
 
2014-04-22 08:30:44 AM  
Matthew 6:
"28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith?"
 
2014-04-22 08:49:34 AM  
"Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9
 
2014-04-22 08:50:51 AM  

Diogenes: "Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9


I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
 
2014-04-22 08:54:12 AM  

naughtyrev: Diogenes: "Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9

I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".


You can't wear cheese.  Unless you're Gaga or something.
 
2014-04-22 08:55:13 AM  
I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.
 
2014-04-22 08:55:36 AM  
Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.
 
2014-04-22 08:57:00 AM  

scottydoesntknow: I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.


The Lord gotta get some scratch, too.
 
2014-04-22 08:57:18 AM  
Just be thankful they're even there, farker.
 
2014-04-22 08:59:39 AM  

gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.


And for people who drone on about the Puritans, they sure misunderstand the sticking points that made them come here.

They didn't like having others telling them how they should observe their faith.  They thought (rightly) that many of the traditions were a joke.  Every time the War on Christmas noise starts I have to laugh, sadly, at how badly the noisemakers just don't get it.
 
2014-04-22 09:15:40 AM  

gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.


Not just the Christian right, and not just in today's world.

Why do you think there are over 40 thousand Christian denominations in this world?
 
2014-04-22 09:16:35 AM  
dailygrindhouse.com

I am reluctant to accept fashion advice from a man who dresses in this manner.
 
2014-04-22 09:18:08 AM  
Hey, my Sunday best just happens to include jorts.
 
2014-04-22 09:18:51 AM  

BunkyBrewman: Not just the Christian right, and not just in today's world.

Why do you think there are over 40 thousand Christian denominations in this world?


And I would imagine at least half of them claim to be "fundamentalist."  Shiat, not even the Catholic or Orthodox churches can claim that.
 
2014-04-22 09:53:36 AM  
Seems awfully concerned about what people are wearing.. maybe he's hiding something.. something fundamental about his true nature.
 
2014-04-22 09:55:13 AM  
If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.
 
2014-04-22 09:56:00 AM  

Diogenes: gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.

And for people who drone on about the Puritans, they sure misunderstand the sticking points that made them come here.

They didn't like having others telling them how they should observe their faith.  They thought (rightly) that many of the traditions were a joke.  Every time the War on Christmas noise starts I have to laugh, sadly, at how badly the noisemakers just don't get it.


You mean, like the people you are lambasting?
 
2014-04-22 09:56:05 AM  
img.photobucket.com

/oblig
 
2014-04-22 09:57:55 AM  
And the LORD spoke and HE said 'though shalt wear extravagant hats whilst though are in my house'.
 
2014-04-22 10:00:07 AM  

naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.


That is my take on it. If Jesus loves me, he will love me in jeans and a t-shirt just as much as slacks and a button-down with a tie.
 
2014-04-22 10:01:00 AM  

Diogenes: gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.

And for people who drone on about the Puritans, they sure misunderstand the sticking points that made them come here.

They didn't like having others telling them how they should observe their faith.  They thought (rightly) that many of the traditions were a joke.  Every time the War on Christmas noise starts I have to laugh, sadly, at how badly the noisemakers just don't get it.


I laugh about the Puritains too and one of the reasons they came here was the fact they hated Christmas or at least the drunken party it was in England.
 
2014-04-22 10:03:19 AM  

scottydoesntknow: I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.


Best part is when they kneel down for Communion.
 
2014-04-22 10:03:47 AM  

Carousel Beast: Diogenes: gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.

And for people who drone on about the Puritans, they sure misunderstand the sticking points that made them come here.

They didn't like having others telling them how they should observe their faith.  They thought (rightly) that many of the traditions were a joke.  Every time the War on Christmas noise starts I have to laugh, sadly, at how badly the noisemakers just don't get it.

You mean, like the people you are lambasting?


Rubber and glue here?  Really?  Weak.

I'm not "lambasting" them.  I'm holding them to their own standards.  They certainly aren't.
 
2014-04-22 10:03:56 AM  
James 2:1-4

My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Focusing on the dress of people is sinful.
 
2014-04-22 10:05:02 AM  
But if they have to buy new clothes they have less money to put in the collection plate. Won't someone please think of the collection plate!!
 
2014-04-22 10:05:11 AM  
GOD HATES RAGS!1!!!!!1!!!!111
 
2014-04-22 10:07:35 AM  

scottydoesntknow: I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.


Every now and then when I go to the church my brother and his family go to, which is very laid back, I am suprised by some of the short dresses. I dont care though and I just hope God isnt mad about me getting a chubby during service.
 
2014-04-22 10:09:25 AM  
Didn't David dance naked before God in the Temple? Not just any church, but the Temple of Solomon when Yahweh was still hanging out in it? Of course, the priests weren't to crazy about that either, but God seemed happy enough.

/atheist
//i.e. read the bible
/// don't ask what the original "dirty hippie" wore...
 
2014-04-22 10:10:05 AM  

groppet: scottydoesntknow: I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.

Every now and then when I go to the church my brother and his family go to, which is very laid back, I am suprised by some of the short dresses. I dont care though and I just hope God isnt mad about me getting a chubby during service.


Ahhh, the holy hard-on
 
2014-04-22 10:12:18 AM  
People don't know how to dress for anything anymore be it work church , court a or just being seen in public-have some self dignity people. You should see the way some folks show up for job interviews. I kid you not, one woman came in to fill out an application at our HR in jogging shorts and heels.

I don't go to church on any regular basis , just for things like wedding or when the SO drags me to one of her things but people dress like slobs. Nobody says buy and wear expensive clothes but at least make sure they are clean and no flip flops,shorts or (as much as Like seeing good looking chicks in them ) short skirts and stripper heels. Heck even as kids we, weren't rich (6 kids in my family) but we had one set of clothes and shoes set aside for things like church, weddings, school events etc,. They were not fancy and they were often hand me downs but we looked presentable and showed some respect for the occasion.

How often to we hear about how easy it is to spot the Americans at Disney land or elsewhere by the way they dress?
 
2014-04-22 10:17:17 AM  
There's a much better way of dealing with church than dressing up or not dressing up.

Just don't farking go.  Stay in bed, mow the lawn, get a beej, whatever you feel like.  Because your god isn't real, and there's no point wasting your time or money on badly written fiction.
 
2014-04-22 10:17:22 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: Johnny, what can you make of this?


i1.ytimg.com
 
2014-04-22 10:18:55 AM  

scottydoesntknow: I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.


The Lord is my Sheppard, he knows what I need!
 
2014-04-22 10:19:09 AM  
So your "god" can only hear you if you go to the right place, at the right time, wearing ONLY the right clothes?? Sounds like one powerful diety!
 
2014-04-22 10:19:27 AM  

hasty ambush: People don't know how to dress for anything anymore be it work church , court a or just being seen in public-have some self dignity people. You should see the way some folks show up for job interviews. I kid you not, one woman came in to fill out an application at our HR in jogging shorts and heels.

I don't go to church on any regular basis , just for things like wedding or when the SO drags me to one of her things but people dress like slobs. Nobody says buy and wear expensive clothes but at least make sure they are clean and no flip flops,shorts or (as much as Like seeing good looking chicks in them ) short skirts and stripper heels. Heck even as kids we, weren't rich (6 kids in my family) but we had one set of clothes and shoes set aside for things like church, weddings, school events etc,. They were not fancy and they were often hand me downs but we looked presentable and showed some respect for the occasion.

How often to we hear about how easy it is to spot the Americans at Disney land or elsewhere by the way they dress?


One of my peeves as well.
Dress appropriately for crissakes, in clothes that FIT!
If you're a  middle aged woman with stretch marks and unsightly bulges do not attempt to dress like your teenage daughter, please.
 
2014-04-22 10:21:53 AM  

Combustion: So your "god" can only hear you if you go to the right place, at the right time, wearing ONLY the right clothes?? Sounds like one powerful diety!


Portland? The city where I saw a woman wearing socks, tevas, and a dress to the symphony?
 
2014-04-22 10:26:19 AM  

JoieD'Zen: Americans at Disney land


They're not the ones wearing track suits or tucking their shirts in?
 
2014-04-22 10:28:05 AM  

Mike Literous: GOD HATES RAGS!1!!!!!1!!!!111


HAHAHAAHAHAHAAA!!!!

Oh man, that's hilarious!!
 
2014-04-22 10:29:44 AM  

Diogenes: Carousel Beast: Diogenes: gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.

And for people who drone on about the Puritans, they sure misunderstand the sticking points that made them come here.

They didn't like having others telling them how they should observe their faith.  They thought (rightly) that many of the traditions were a joke.  Every time the War on Christmas noise starts I have to laugh, sadly, at how badly the noisemakers just don't get it.

You mean, like the people you are lambasting?

Rubber and glue here?  Really?  Weak.

I'm not "lambasting" them.  I'm holding them to their own standards.  They certainly aren't.


It's weak to point out your hypocrisy? Sorry dude, I call it like I see them. You can't hold up the one as an example to defend and then accuse the other of the exact same thing as an attack.

That many (possibly most) religious traditions are stupid and backward we can agree on.
 
2014-04-22 10:30:36 AM  

naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.


This! So many damn idiots out there claiming to be christian but are are really as anti-christian as possible.
 
2014-04-22 10:31:47 AM  

pute kisses like a man: FirstNationalBastard: Johnny, what can you make of this?

[i1.ytimg.com image 480x360]


img.fark.net
 
2014-04-22 10:32:00 AM  
www.quickmeme.com
 
2014-04-22 10:33:20 AM  
One of my Pastors worked in a previous church that split over something as stupid as whether men could wear baseball caps during the service.  That said, the women here took one of the young girls aside and said, "Hey, you are not just your cleavage."

The scriptural precedent could be that if you're doing something that doesn't matter, but upsets other people, you should stop in consideration for their weakness.

Our church ministers to street people.  One of the traditional guys couldn't take the dirt and smells.  He would just about cry when the street folks would break the bread in line ahead of him.  Pastor said, "There was nothing clean and tidy about the crucifixion."  He was also 'germ phobic,' so we started cutting up some of the bread so that people wouldn't touch his portion.  He still left our church.

The remaining people in their Sunday best love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence.  There's a lot of care & compassion going on.

/Evangelical
 
2014-04-22 10:33:21 AM  

Diogenes: naughtyrev: Diogenes: "Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9

I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".

You can't wear cheese.  Unless you're Gaga or something.


Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
 
2014-04-22 10:34:09 AM  

jasonvatch: Matthew 6:
"28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith?"


So... go buck naked?
 
2014-04-22 10:35:56 AM  

Carousel Beast: It's weak to point out your hypocrisy? Sorry dude, I call it like I see them. You can't hold up the one as an example to defend and then accuse the other of the exact same thing as an attack.


I'm holding them to their own farking standards.  Not mine.  Sorry that's so hard for you to grasp.
 
2014-04-22 10:37:02 AM  
Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a crotchety old man being crotchety.
 
2014-04-22 10:38:10 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: Johnny, what can you make of this?


This?

Well, I can make a hat, I can make a broach, I can make a pterodactyl!
 
2014-04-22 10:39:28 AM  
Times change, standards change. Big deal. We don't wear white tie and tails very often anymore, but that used to be a standard evening dress. The world didn't end when that type of dress fell out of favor.

If a public or private place wants to enforce a dress code that is fine; you either don't go there or you dress as expected to in those situations. This is not new....

You want to dress up for church, find one that prefers you do that. You wanna dress in flip flops and tees, find a church that is ok with that. From what I have read of Jesus he won't care.
 
2014-04-22 10:39:40 AM  
This is why churches like Calvary continue to grow while Catholicism and other frumpy, tradition heavy churches stagnate.  There is nothing wrong with going to church in cargo shorts and flipflops.  Hell, Jesus wore a toga.
 
2014-04-22 10:40:47 AM  
s2.quickmeme.com
 
2014-04-22 10:44:22 AM  

vudukungfu: jasonvatch: Matthew 6:
"28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith?"

So... go buck naked?


cdn.static.ovimg.com
 
2014-04-22 10:45:47 AM  
Dressing appropriately is a thing of the past.  It makes no difference if you're talking about church, business, or even going out.

One of the things that children learn is that having different clothes for different activities defines appropriate behavior for the activity.  For example, growing up, we had church clothes, school clothes and play/work clothes.  Our church clothes were never fancy - we were poor.  But when you were wearing your church clothes, a certain behavior was expected.  On Sundays, we had dinner after services and we wore our Sunday clothes because we ate in the dining room with what passed for our good dishes and silverware.  And a higher order of manners was expected.  Most often, we had dinner with the extended family and Grandmother was very exacting about what constituted Sunday manners.

When we went to school, we obviously had our school clothes on.  Again, that dictated a certain kind of behavior and you were expected to behave in school.  Even when we played at recess, we played differently than when we had our play clothes on.  For example, we often had a baseball game going on during recesses at school.  No matter how great the temptation, one would never slide into 2nd base wearing school clothes.  When wearing play clothes, however, he wouldn't hesitate.

It's the same for military, police, sports teams, etc.  When you have the uniform on, certain behavior is expected.

As for church, the lack of any dress standards is part of the problem with the church.  There is no respect for a church when half of the congregation on a Sunday morning is dressed in a manner that would not permit then to enter the sports bar on Saturday night.

When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties.  One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers.  Women often wore suits but with skirts.  Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity.  I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country.  During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices.  Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes.  The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

We used to say that "Clothes make the man."  That may not have been true but clothes can definitely shape his  behavior.
 
2014-04-22 10:47:37 AM  
Good luck with that, you cant even get some of these miscreants to dress decently for their court dates
 
2014-04-22 10:55:53 AM  

naughtyrev: Diogenes: "Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9

I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".


Blessed are the pizza makers, heathen.
 
2014-04-22 10:56:05 AM  

NewWorldDan: If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.


We split our time between our local parish up the block and our old family parish in the city. At the old city church I'd say 80% of the churchgoers are over 50. When we take our 1 and 3 year old we either get the complete stink eye of hate or smiles and approving nods. Whenever the kids are a bit noisy the priest makes sure to mention that a church filled with the cries of youth is a growing church.

/Wish it had a crying room
 
2014-04-22 10:57:23 AM  

Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.


Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?
 
2014-04-22 10:57:34 AM  
Brought to you by a guy who thinks Jesus was white.
 
2014-04-22 10:58:22 AM  

bhcompy: This is why churches like Calvary continue to grow while Catholicism and other frumpy, tradition heavy churches stagnate.  There is nothing wrong with going to church in cargo shorts and flipflops.  Hell, Jesus wore a toga.


uafjournalism.com
 
2014-04-22 11:00:33 AM  

gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.


One of the biggest controversies among Christians today (in terms of what causes a regular churchgoer to leave one church to go to another) is whether the church service uses "modern" or "traditional" music.  This includes replacing choirs with "praise teams," or using "nontraditional" instruments like drums and guitars, or singing newer songs in addition to the ones your grandmother sang at church.  Churches actually self-destruct over this issue.  New pastor comes in, maybe brings in a new music director, someone decides to update the music, adds new songs, brings in a praise team with drums and guitars, and the people over 50 go nuts.  There are arguments, meetings, the new guy refuses to go back to the way it was, and most of the older folks go to some other church that still does things the old fashioned way.  Then, because the congregation is only half the size it used to be, there are budget cuts, projects get cancelled, more people drift away.  The church may weather the storm and bounce back, or it may implode.

Down the street, the traditional church?  It's less dramatic, but it's dwindling because most of the congregation is that over-50 crowd and they're not getting any younger.  They're loyal and they stick with the church to the bitter end, but the nice young couples with two kids who just moved into the area won't join.  They don't want 12 people in robes singing "Bringing in the Sheaves" while Mildred the octogenarian plays the piano.  No young couples and no kids means this church is dying, too --- just more slowly.  When you have more funerals than baptisms plus weddings, you're doomed.

Some churches try to keep everyone happy by having both a "contemporary" service and a "traditional service," but that has its own set of problems.  It's much more work for everyone involved, for one thing, and it really only works if your congregation was large enough (compared to the size of the physical building) that you pretty much needed to do double services anyway to accommodate the numbers.  And even then the mere fact that a contemporary service happens is enough to piss off some of the more crotchety oldtimers.

Yes, it's petty and trivial and ridiculous, but this is causing churches to self-destruct all over the USA.  And that's just the music, don't even get me started on pews and baptismal immersion and a million other nitpicks that churchgoers lose their freaking minds over.
 
2014-04-22 11:00:51 AM  

naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.


True enough, but it also means that you don't give a damn about Jesus if you really get offended at the idea of combing your hair and finding a pair of least-ripped jeans. The whole "I'm going to wear whatever shiat I want to church." attitude is to be expected, of course, when one lives in WalMartia. After all, if the rest of culture is becoming nothing but fodder for People of WalMart, church will be, too.

So, fly your "WalMart is my soul!" flag high! Go to church in cut-offs and flip-flops, and be MORTALLY OFFENDED that anyone would think it's not the best of all possible things to wear. Glory in your WalMart mind! Revel in your WalMart life!
 
2014-04-22 11:03:29 AM  
WWJW?....Oh yeah.  A loincloth and crown of thorns.
 
2014-04-22 11:06:09 AM  

Mike Literous: GOD HATES RAGS!1!!!!!1!!!!111


Win..... so much.... win!
 
2014-04-22 11:06:46 AM  
Because if there's one thing Jesus wanted, it was a single, centralized, oppulent structure where people could come to once a week to grow their faith and where folks who did not wear the proper attire were shunned and turned away.
 
2014-04-22 11:07:30 AM  

avratt: WWJW?....Oh yeah.  A loincloth and crown of thorns.


And these same people raggin' about attendees wearing clothes would rag about HIM, too!
 
2014-04-22 11:08:34 AM  
The Bible sends mixed messages about the concept of wearing your Sunday best everything.

FTFTFA
 
2014-04-22 11:08:36 AM  
I read that article on Sunday morning as I was getting ready to go to church.
What the author is really saying is that he does not like how our culture has changed.  Because it is our culture, not the church members which is doing this.   I'm sure that somewhere in the past someone else was upset that people stopped wearing hand sewn clothes and instead wore finely woven fabric sewed with a machine.
Your respect is not always shown by what you wear, but how you act.  There are very poor people who attend our church and are obviously wearing donated clothing, we don't change how we treat them.  For everyone it is nice to see them, glad they came.  No judging, no criticism, etc.  Of course we are not the kind of church who has a rock band or some fool prancing about on a stage screaming at everyone.  That is what I find more offensive, the person running the service needs to act with a bit more dignity.
 
2014-04-22 11:09:15 AM  

Silly_Sot: naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.

True enough, but it also means that you don't give a damn about Jesus if you really get offended at the idea of combing your hair and finding a pair of least-ripped jeans. The whole "I'm going to wear whatever shiat I want to church." attitude is to be expected, of course, when one lives in WalMartia. After all, if the rest of culture is becoming nothing but fodder for People of WalMart, church will be, too.

So, fly your "WalMart is my soul!" flag high! Go to church in cut-offs and flip-flops, and be MORTALLY OFFENDED that anyone would think it's not the best of all possible things to wear. Glory in your WalMart mind! Revel in your WalMart life!


Meh.  I live in Southern California.  The churches in my community have surf competitions.  Concern over what one wears to church is way down the list of important things to worry about from the churches perspective and has nothing to do with socioeconomic status.
 
2014-04-22 11:09:38 AM  
HEY! LEPER!

Ya, YOU! GIT outta here!

We have a STRICT two-hands dress code here!
 
2014-04-22 11:10:30 AM  
I wore jeans under my cassock for both the Easter Vigil and Sunday services so I'm getting a kick out of some of these replies...
 
2014-04-22 11:10:52 AM  

cgraves67: naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.

That is my take on it. If Jesus loves me, he will love me in jeans and a t-shirt just as much as slacks and a button-down with a tie.


True. But, if you show up to church in jeans and a t-shirt, the rest of us might be forgiven for thinking you're a poorly socialized slob.

/atheist, but understands situation-appropriate attire
//my lawn, and so forth...
 
2014-04-22 11:11:21 AM  

NewWorldDan: If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.


If I may expound a bit on my last post, there's a big divide between the over-50 crowd and the under-40 crowd, with folks in their 40s being largely in transition between those two groups.  The over-50s want things to be very traditional and the under-40s want what's often called "contemporary services," with one of the differences between the two being that the traditional crowd still wears their Sunday best and the contemporaries don't care if you wear jeans and a t-shirt.  There are other differences.

And more and more they go do different churches altogether.  Churches are choosing (and very deliberately and consciously) whether to cater to the young folks or the old fogies, and churchgoers are, in turn, voting with their feet.

Your wife could cross the street and find a church with few people OVER 50.
 
2014-04-22 11:13:47 AM  

naughtyrev: Diogenes: "Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9

I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".


Not Beermakers?  How about winemakers?  Perhaps condommakers?  Bluntmakers?  Not Bankers? or Conservative  Politicians?  Pot Growers?  How about Breast Augmentation makers?
I like Breast Augmentation makers best of all - Matt would've liked 'em too, I'm sure of it.
 
2014-04-22 11:15:33 AM  

Diogenes


You can't wear cheese. Unless you're Gaga or something.



31.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-04-22 11:16:50 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: Diogenes

You can't wear cheese. Unless you're Gaga or something.

[31.media.tumblr.com image 480x360]


LOL.  I'm going to need a ref on that!
 
2014-04-22 11:18:53 AM  

Silly_Sot: naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.

True enough, but it also means that you don't give a damn about Jesus if you really get offended at the idea of combing your hair and finding a pair of least-ripped jeans. The whole "I'm going to wear whatever shiat I want to church." attitude is to be expected, of course, when one lives in WalMartia. After all, if the rest of culture is becoming nothing but fodder for People of WalMart, church will be, too.

So, fly your "WalMart is my soul!" flag high! Go to church in cut-offs and flip-flops, and be MORTALLY OFFENDED that anyone would think it's not the best of all possible things to wear. Glory in your WalMart mind! Revel in your WalMart life!


Couple of facts here: 1) I don't go to church. Haven't been to one other than for weddings in over 30 years. I honestly don't give a damn about Jesus. 2) I don't shop at WalMart. I don't even know where one is near me. 3) I wear a suit to the office 5 days a week, and really the only time I'm bumming around in flip-flops is on the beach.

All that said, I don't care what people wear to church, because it has no impact on my life.
 
2014-04-22 11:21:36 AM  

Felix_T_Cat: One of my Pastors worked in a previous church that split over something as stupid as whether men could wear baseball caps during the service.  That said, the women here took one of the young girls aside and said, "Hey, you are not just your cleavage."

The scriptural precedent could be that if you're doing something that doesn't matter, but upsets other people, you should stop in consideration for their weakness.



You're probably referring to  Romans 14:1-4, and while I agree with you in principle, the problem is that pretty much EVERYTHING upsets somebody.  To use the specific example Paul used, do you really think that, because SOME Christians might be offended by eating meat or see non-vegetarianism as sinful, that every Christian in the world should practice vegetarianism "in consideration for their weakness"?  That seems rather extreme and impractical.

Also what about Romans 14:3 specifically, where Paul says "the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them"?  Is that not saying that God commands we NOT JUDGE the person who wears a baseball cap or shows off a little too much cleavage?
 
2014-04-22 11:27:04 AM  
Heh. Reminds me of when I was a kid in Puerto Rico and Sunday morning church was basically a fashion show. Puerto Ricans dress appropriately (and possibly overdress) for everything. If I went to church now, I'd feel weird going in jeans or flip-flops but realize that if there is an all-loving God, He probably wouldn't care what you're wearing. Cuz he would love you. (Obviously he doesn't cuz, well... look at the world we live in now. But that's my problem, I'll deal with it.)
 
2014-04-22 11:28:04 AM  

hasty ambush: showed some respect for the occasion.


That's the key. Respect. People hate the idea that they should have to respect anything.

rev. dave: Your respect is not always shown by what you wear, but how you act.


How you dress is part of how you act. It's a conscious choice. When you are choosing to wear informal clothing to a formal occasion, you are acting, and your actions are showing disrespect for your surroundings and for the other people there who did take the time to look presentable.

bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?


What would make you think that? Because somebody has the temerity to say something that doesn't support your pre-existing opinions about how great it is to dress like a slob?
 
2014-04-22 11:28:32 AM  

Diogenes: gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.

And for people who drone on about the Puritans, they sure misunderstand the sticking points that made them come here.

They didn't like having others telling them how they should observe their faith.  They thought (rightly) that many of the traditions were a joke.  Every time the War on Christmas noise starts I have to laugh, sadly, at how badly the noisemakers just don't get it.


And do you know why they were told to STFU?  Because they had spent several decades trying to tell everyone else how to worship - and even killed a king over it.  The Puritans were not a small band of meek, quiet lambs, just sitting around England, being sweet and innocent until the mean ole CoE decided to grind them under.  They were the farking Taliban of their day, with their own Oliver bin Cromwell leading the charge to turn England into a wasteland of constipated parsimoniousness.  Hell, the English brought back Charles II simply because they were tired of judgmental sanctimonious Puritanism.  The major failing of Charles was not to ruthlessly and utterly exterminate every sour-faced monochrome motherfarker off the face of the Earth.  Letting the flagrantly socipathic scum infect America was way more of a justification for independence than the Stamp Act - if the British government couldn't protect good, honest colonists from those vermin, it didn't deserve to run the colonies.
 
2014-04-22 11:28:50 AM  
"Put the mouse back in the house," saith the Lord.

Or something.  Pretty sure that's in there.
 
2014-04-22 11:31:52 AM  

cptjeff: bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?


What would make you think that? Because somebody has the temerity to say something that doesn't support your pre-existing opinions about how great it is to dress like a slob?


Wow, you REALLY enjoying making up other people's motives, I see.  You know, if people disagreeing with you chaps your ass this much, Fark might not be the best place for you.
 
2014-04-22 11:33:21 AM  
I am part of a small congregation, we like it small and on Easter everyone wore nice clothes, but very few suits.  Some of us like me get hot very fast so I try to look nice while staying cool, so no suit jackets.
Sometimes during the summer, you will see people in shorts and t-shirts.  It is no big deal, we don't have one of those churches as a social meeting type of congregations.  I think everyone ends up going where they feel they belong.  Every place is different.
But I also know that the clothes I wear at home and to Wal-Mart are not the same clothes I wear to work.  I thought everyone understood those boundaries.
 
2014-04-22 11:33:53 AM  

Diogenes


LOL. I'm going to need a ref on that!


It's from the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' television series. The gang is watching a movie and they all fall asleep. Everyone has different dreams but the "cheese man" is in all of them for some reason.

Anyway, it seemed to be the most logical response to your post. :-)
 
2014-04-22 11:35:16 AM  
I am Pope Francis' smug satisfaction and smirking grin.
 
2014-04-22 11:35:25 AM  

hasty ambush: People don't know how to dress for anything anymore be it work church , court a or just being seen in public-have some self dignity people. You should see the way some folks show up for job interviews. I kid you not, one woman came in to fill out an application at our HR in jogging shorts and heels.

I don't go to church on any regular basis , just for things like wedding or when the SO drags me to one of her things but people dress like slobs. Nobody says buy and wear expensive clothes but at least make sure they are clean and no flip flops,shorts or (as much as Like seeing good looking chicks in them ) short skirts and stripper heels. Heck even as kids we, weren't rich (6 kids in my family) but we had one set of clothes and shoes set aside for things like church, weddings, school events etc,. They were not fancy and they were often hand me downs but we looked presentable and showed some respect for the occasion.

How often to we hear about how easy it is to spot the Americans at Disney land or elsewhere by the way they dress?


Can somebody find/link last year's thread from the article on Bieber wearing overalls or whatever to the White House? I want to compare the Farker handles between that thread and this. See how much kneejerk anti-religion hypocrisy is going on. And who's doing it.
 
2014-04-22 11:35:56 AM  
Even worse than church: ritzy country clubs. My sister dated a rich guy (endodontist) who was a member of the local country club, and he would invite the family up there for their buffet dinners on special occasions. One time I wore some jeans - really nice, brand new jeans - and caught hell. There was no posted prohibition of jeans, and no one said anything to my face, but the waiter eventually came over and said the maitre d' had received a complaint from one of the members that I was wearing jeans. I could not get up and go to the buffet table for the rest of the meal and had to have food brought to me, and beeline for the exit when the meal was done. One of the most humiliating experiences ever, and for wearing jeans? And to think that somebody actually had the nerve to complain about it! As one of those upper crust ladies might say, "Well, I never!"

The next year we went, the sign at the front that once read "GENTS - PLEASE REMOVE HATS" read "NO HATS, BLUE JEANS OR CELL PHONES."

Needless to say, I would never waste my money on one of those snooty clubs, even if I was raking it in.
 
2014-04-22 11:37:10 AM  

naughtyrev: I don't really think Jesus would have given a damn what you wore as long as you were listening to him.


Poor and whore, come unto me?
 
2014-04-22 11:37:56 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: Johnny, what can you make of this?


I can make a hat, or a brooch, or a pterodactyl...
 
2014-04-22 11:38:39 AM  

Mike Literous: GOD HATES RAGS!1!!!!!1!!!!111


win
 
2014-04-22 11:39:41 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-04-22 11:40:59 AM  

gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.  Christ is liberal enough to move forward into the future.  These poor sobs are just going to wail in their little churches about the end of the world when it is just really the end of the world as they have known it.

Oh their faith turns out to be so weak and small.


What's funnier is that Jesus stated that they have made the word of God invalid by their traditions (Matthew chapter 15):

Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: "Why do your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal."In reply he said to them: "Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition? For example, God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Let the one who speaks abusively of his father or mother be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother: "Whatever I have that could benefit you is a gift dedicated to God," he need not honor his father at all.' So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 'This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.'"
 
2014-04-22 11:41:19 AM  

destrip


Even worse than church: ritzy country clubs. My sister dated a rich guy (endodontist) who was a member of the local country club, and he would invite the family up there for their buffet dinners on special occasions. One time I wore some jeans - really nice, brand new jeans - and caught hell.


I am surprised that you were surprised by this. Were you completely unfamiliar with the concept of a "country club"?

Even if your only CC experience was watching 'Caddyshack', you were an invited guest for dinner so a little extra effort would have been expected.
 
2014-04-22 11:43:07 AM  

Diogenes: naughtyrev: Diogenes: "Blessed are the dressmakers, for they will clothe the children of God."

Matthew 5:9

I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".

You can't wear cheese.  Unless you're Gaga or something.


or from Green Bay......
 
2014-04-22 11:43:46 AM  

ciberido: NewWorldDan: If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.

If I may expound a bit on my last post, there's a big divide between the over-50 crowd and the under-40 crowd, with folks in their 40s being largely in transition between those two groups.  The over-50s want things to be very traditional and the under-40s want what's often called "contemporary services," with one of the differences between the two being that the traditional crowd still wears their Sunday best and the contemporaries don't care if you wear jeans and a t-shirt.  There are other differences.

And more and more they go do different churches altogether.  Churches are choosing (and very deliberately and consciously) whether to cater to the young folks or the old fogies, and churchgoers are, in turn, voting with their feet.

Your wife could cross the street and find a church with few people OVER 50.


Traditional Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with jeremiads about how 1830s America was the Golden Age of Christianity and if the darkies, women, and poor would just accept that rape and lynching are God's gifts life would be better.

Contemporary Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with horribly vapid songs performed by people so musically incompetent passers-by would charge them for busking.

I always thought you couldn't get more useless than a traditional service - until I attended a contemporary one and realized there were entire depths of vacuousness that had not been plumbed.  Pretty much gave up on church after that, when I realized that in 25 years, I had heard a grand total of 3 sermons that weren't complete dreck.
 
2014-04-22 11:44:53 AM  

Mike Literous: GOD HATES RAGS!1!!!!!1!!!!111


Huh. I think you just won the internet.
 
2014-04-22 11:45:38 AM  

ciberido: cptjeff: bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?


What would make you think that? Because somebody has the temerity to say something that doesn't support your pre-existing opinions about how great it is to dress like a slob?

Wow, you REALLY enjoying making up other people's motives, I see.  You know, if people disagreeing with you chaps your ass this much, Fark might not be the best place for you.


Oh, poor little baby. Did somebody on the internet hurt your feelings?

The poster I was responding to called a perfectly reasonable post trolling. I wanted to confront them on the judgement they made to force them to examine why they made it. Given the attitude of most people on fark towards the entire concept of formal attire, it's not hard to guess what that motivation was. I might be wrong about their motivation, but if I were a betting man, I'd put money on that particular one.
 
2014-04-22 11:48:20 AM  

Mr. Right: I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.


Posit all you want, but there is plenty of research that proves you have it backwards. As dress codes have relaxed, productivity has exploded. Granted, my office is very casual, but the only folks here in suits are incompetent, and hide behind their dress. The best workers here don't worry over much about their fashion.
 
2014-04-22 11:51:02 AM  
Religious people are pretty much assholes.
 
2014-04-22 11:51:23 AM  
The small, evangelical town I come from in rural, central Pennsylvania traditionally had the ladies putting their hair up in curlers on a Saturday night, ensuring both that they will look good for Jesus on Sunday and that they definitely are NOT having sex on a Saturday night with anyone, not even their husbands. There are some that insist on this yarmulke like doily on top of the head, too. Have to wear their "Sunday best" to church, too.
My grandmother used to walk us to church (one mile, uphill) for an hour of Sunday school in the basement, then an hour of regular service upstairs. Then we had to hike another mile, still uphill, to the other grandmother's church, in jacket, suit and tie, on a hot summer's day, to repeat the basement Sunday school, and hour of regular service. Because by god, each of the grandmothers went to different churches and that meant we had to attend BOTH.
After this, we were maybe allowed a half a pop-cycle, but hot hose water was a treat at that point. All this was done after chores and before lunch. By the time it was as hot as could be outside, then, and only then, were we sent outside to play. Off to the chicken coop for to find some shade and maybe a comic book. Jeepers. We were so lucky not to have computers. We had to play with bugs, and sticks, and we had to breathe fresh air and exercise and be in the sunshine. Kids these days are like locked in prison. No fresh air. No sunshine. Bah.
Get off my lawn.
 
2014-04-22 11:56:09 AM  

destrip: ritzy country clubs.


One of the reasons I declined to marry in to wealth a few times.
Really. I live in the country.
That is all the "country club" I need.
 
2014-04-22 12:00:57 PM  

phalamir: ciberido: NewWorldDan: If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.

If I may expound a bit on my last post, there's a big divide between the over-50 crowd and the under-40 crowd, with folks in their 40s being largely in transition between those two groups.  The over-50s want things to be very traditional and the under-40s want what's often called "contemporary services," with one of the differences between the two being that the traditional crowd still wears their Sunday best and the contemporaries don't care if you wear jeans and a t-shirt.  There are other differences.

And more and more they go do different churches altogether.  Churches are choosing (and very deliberately and consciously) whether to cater to the young folks or the old fogies, and churchgoers are, in turn, voting with their feet.

Your wife could cross the street and find a church with few people OVER 50.

Traditional Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with jeremiads about how 1830s America was the Golden Age of Christianity and if the darkies, women, and poor would just accept that rape and lynching are God's gifts life would be better.

Contemporary Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with horribly vapid songs performed by people so musically incompetent passers-by would charge them for busking.

I always thought you couldn't get more useless than a traditional service - until I attended a contemporary one and realized there were entire depths of vacuousness that had not been plumbed.  Pretty much gave up on church after that, when I realized that in 25 years, I had heard a grand total of 3 sermons that weren't complete dreck.


i'm not catholic, but I pretty much only go to catholic services.

there's millions of catholic churches around, they're mind-numbingly beautiful, and the sermons are often thought out, eloquent, and focus on being a good person/helping those in need, which can be appreciated by secular ears.

most people dress well.  especially for holidays.  however, there are people dressed down, or in work clothes, and absolutely no one is batting an eye.  however, if you were wearing slutty mcslut clothes, you might garner some negative attention.  but, by no means would you be asked to leave
 
2014-04-22 12:03:05 PM  
""If you had the opportunity to meet the Queen of England, you wouldn't show up in at Windsor Castle wearing jeans and a T-shirt," she says. "

The Queen of England doesn't love you unconditionally. She is also very rich and judgey.

"38As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces,  39and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.40They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely." "

To be fair, Jesus seems to be more of mocking judges and lawyers than those who dress nicely for Church here.

I prefer the passage in Matthew 6, which talks about:

6"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,  4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face,  18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

If you're dressed in a suit on a Sunday morning, everyone knows you're going to church. It is an announcement, like blowing a trumpet, of your own righteousness. No one should be able to tell that you're going to church, that you are praying, that you are fasting.

And the final nail in the coffin:

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?  27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.  30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you-you of little faith?  31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.  33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.  34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
 
2014-04-22 12:09:48 PM  

phalamir: Traditional Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with jeremiads about how 1830s America was the Golden Age of Christianity and if the darkies, women, and poor would just accept that rape and lynching are God's gifts life would be better.

Contemporary Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with horribly vapid songs performed by people so musically incompetent passers-by would charge them for busking.

I always thought you couldn't get more useless than a traditional service - until I attended a contemporary one and realized there were entire depths of vacuousness that had not been plumbed.  Pretty much gave up on church after that, when I realized that in 25 years, I had heard a grand total of 3 sermons that weren't complete dreck.


Well, at least it didn't turn you cynical.
 
2014-04-22 12:12:34 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: One of my Pastors worked in a previous church that split over something as stupid as whether men could wear baseball caps during the service.  That said, the women here took one of the young girls aside and said, "Hey, you are not just your cleavage."

The scriptural precedent could be that if you're doing something that doesn't matter, but upsets other people, you should stop in consideration for their weakness.

Our church ministers to street people.  One of the traditional guys couldn't take the dirt and smells.  He would just about cry when the street folks would break the bread in line ahead of him.  Pastor said, "There was nothing clean and tidy about the crucifixion."  He was also 'germ phobic,' so we started cutting up some of the bread so that people wouldn't touch his portion.  He still left our church.

The remaining people in their Sunday best love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence.  There's a lot of care & compassion going on.

/Evangelical


Seems like it wouldn't cost much to put in a shower and let the bums us it instead of being happy about having pee and poo rubbed all over you.

/yourenothelping.jpg
 
2014-04-22 12:14:41 PM  

JoieD'Zen: hasty ambush: People don't know how to dress for anything anymore be it work church , court a or just being seen in public-have some self dignity people. You should see the way some folks show up for job interviews. I kid you not, one woman came in to fill out an application at our HR in jogging shorts and heels.

I don't go to church on any regular basis , just for things like wedding or when the SO drags me to one of her things but people dress like slobs. Nobody says buy and wear expensive clothes but at least make sure they are clean and no flip flops,shorts or (as much as Like seeing good looking chicks in them ) short skirts and stripper heels. Heck even as kids we, weren't rich (6 kids in my family) but we had one set of clothes and shoes set aside for things like church, weddings, school events etc,. They were not fancy and they were often hand me downs but we looked presentable and showed some respect for the occasion.

How often to we hear about how easy it is to spot the Americans at Disney land or elsewhere by the way they dress?

One of my peeves as well.
Dress appropriately for crissakes, in clothes that FIT!
If you're a  middle aged woman with stretch marks and unsightly bulges do not attempt to dress like your teenage daughter, please.


While I'd rather you show up to church in ratty jeans and a t-shirt than not at all, but for the love of Christ dress like you give a damn. I'm not talking suit and tie, but how about nice fitting jeans and t-shirt. It takes just as much time to put on a pair of khaki's and a polo shirt as it does for a pair of sweatpants and your Phillies 2009 National League Champions T-shirt. Dress like you got some sense.

/Get off my lawn.
 
2014-04-22 12:18:35 PM  
I don't think Jesus has any ground to comment on other people's dress. This is a dude that runs around in a bed sheet.
 
2014-04-22 12:18:42 PM  

Doctor Funkenstein: scottydoesntknow: I went to church with the family on Easter because my mom wanted me to go since it had been a couple years. I was shocked, shocked I say, by the number of hot girls wearing low cut dresses/skirts. The thigh is not the limit in the house of the lord.

The Lord gotta get some scratch, too.


Jesus was shacked up with a whore and turned water into wine.  You damned right he would approve
 
2014-04-22 12:19:41 PM  

rev. dave: I am part of a small congregation, we like it small and on Easter everyone wore nice clothes, but very few suits.


Dave, have you ever heard of non-evangelicals? I have about a dozen or so that worship above my house every 4 weeks - very elderly congregation . Look them up. I've never heard of "non-evangelical" before meeting this bunch.
 
2014-04-22 12:20:24 PM  

mjohnson71: NewWorldDan: If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.

We split our time between our local parish up the block and our old family parish in the city. At the old city church I'd say 80% of the churchgoers are over 50. When we take our 1 and 3 year old we either get the complete stink eye of hate or smiles and approving nods. Whenever the kids are a bit noisy the priest makes sure to mention that a church filled with the cries of youth is a growing church.

/Wish it had a crying room


Always hated that. When I was a kid I was capable of sitting in the pew and paying attention. I'm talking kids and not babies of course, but these days they seem to let kids do whatever they want instead of just babies.

That and the whole "selfie" thing is getting out of control. At Easter mass a couple and their two girls were taking pictures in front of the altar right before mass. Was like wtf...

Family in front of me had 3 kids, had them wearing little wicker fedoras. I know not that long ago women had to keep their heads covered at mass, but since then we hit the "it is disrespectful to wear a hat in church" thing. Anyway, the kids were talking and climbing all over in the pews. When I was that age I would have had my mouth covered if I tried talking and smacked with a hymnal for using the pew as a playground.
 
2014-04-22 12:21:28 PM  

cptjeff: bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?

What would make you think that? Because somebody has the temerity to say something that doesn't support your pre-existing opinions about how great it is to dress like a slob?


Since when is not wearing a suit an opinion on "how great it is to dress like a slob"?  How does questioning the absurd reasoning behind someone suggesting that not wearing a suit reduces productivity in anyway support the bullshiat flowing out of your mouth?
 
2014-04-22 12:25:21 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: One of my Pastors worked in a previous church that split over something as stupid as whether men could wear baseball caps during the service.  That said, the women here took one of the young girls aside and said, "Hey, you are not just your cleavage."

The scriptural precedent could be that if you're doing something that doesn't matter, but upsets other people, you should stop in consideration for their weakness.

Our church ministers to street people.  One of the traditional guys couldn't take the dirt and smells.  He would just about cry when the street folks would break the bread in line ahead of him.  Pastor said, "There was nothing clean and tidy about the crucifixion."  He was also 'germ phobic,' so we started cutting up some of the bread so that people wouldn't touch his portion.  He still left our church.

The remaining people in their Sunday best love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence.  There's a lot of care & compassion going on.

/Evangelical


And the people with urine and fecal incontinence do their very best to love the rest of the people in their Sunday best, despite those folk's presumption of superiority and attitudes of "tolerance."

But Lord knows it's hard.
 
2014-04-22 12:27:35 PM  

ciberido: Felix_T_Cat: One of my Pastors worked in a previous church that split over something as stupid as whether men could wear baseball caps during the service.  That said, the women here took one of the young girls aside and said, "Hey, you are not just your cleavage."

The scriptural precedent could be that if you're doing something that doesn't matter, but upsets other people, you should stop in consideration for their weakness.


You're probably referring to  Romans 14:1-4, and while I agree with you in principle, the problem is that pretty much EVERYTHING upsets somebody.  To use the specific example Paul used, do you really think that, because SOME Christians might be offended by eating meat or see non-vegetarianism as sinful, that every Christian in the world should practice vegetarianism "in consideration for their weakness"?  That seems rather extreme and impractical.

Also what about Romans 14:3 specifically, where Paul says "the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them"?  Is that not saying that God commands we NOT JUDGE the person who wears a baseball cap or shows off a little too much cleavage?


Of course.  I didn't say every situation.  You have to weigh the act against the effect.  You don't offer ham to Muslims or go to a Messianic Jewish temple and start complaining about Palestine.  I wear my cap in churches we're it doesn't offend.  I take it off where it does.  The Indian people at church don't eat meat, but they don't get offended when others do.

The guy who I mentioned was always on me to not wear cargo shorts.  After a while, since it upset him so much, I stopped.  Then he started with, "You should cut your long hair."

Deny self where it would do some good.  Besides, you have to look at the goal.  This guy needs Jesus, am I gonna crap on him over something stupid?  Am I going to try an please someone who won't be happy no matter what?  If he's got a biblical point, I have to look at it.  "be a Jew to the Jews, a gentile to the gentiles."
 
2014-04-22 12:27:51 PM  

rev. dave: I read that article on Sunday morning as I was getting ready to go to church.
What the author is really saying is that he does not like how our culture has changed.  Because it is our culture, not the church members which is doing this.   I'm sure that somewhere in the past someone else was upset that people stopped wearing hand sewn clothes and instead wore finely woven fabric sewed with a machine.
Your respect is not always shown by what you wear, but how you act.  There are very poor people who attend our church and are obviously wearing donated clothing, we don't change how we treat them.  For everyone it is nice to see them, glad they came.  No judging, no criticism, etc.  Of course we are not the kind of church who has a rock band or some fool prancing about on a stage screaming at everyone.  That is what I find more offensive, the person running the service needs to act with a bit more dignity.


Decently refreshing in a sea of trolls.

The traditional idea is don't criticize someone if their best dress isn't very good, but everyone still should dress the best they can.

Today, both in our culture and our society, we conform to the lowest common denominator instead of the other way around.
 
2014-04-22 12:31:05 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: Heh. Reminds me of when I was a kid in Puerto Rico and Sunday morning church was basically a fashion show. Puerto Ricans dress appropriately (and possibly overdress) for everything. If I went to church now, I'd feel weird going in jeans or flip-flops but realize that if there is an all-loving God, He probably wouldn't care what you're wearing. Cuz he would love you. (Obviously he doesn't cuz, well... look at the world we live in now. But that's my problem, I'll deal with it.)


Wouldn't the heels the ladies wear there chip the marble? :)

Been to PR 3 times, 2 on business, once for fun.  Doesn't seem to matter how tall a lady is in PR, she is rockin' 3" heels *minimum* at the office.

/also the cathedral in Old San Juan is beautiful
 
2014-04-22 12:32:02 PM  

Bullseyed: Decently refreshing in a sea of trolls.

The traditional idea is don't criticize someone if their best dress isn't very good, but everyone still should dress the best they can.

Today, both in our culture and our society, we conform to the lowest common denominator instead of the other way around.


img.fark.net


I blame the limbo

/How low can you go?
 
2014-04-22 12:32:33 PM  

ciberido: Felix_T_Cat: One of my Pastors worked in a previous church that split over something as stupid as whether men could wear baseball caps during the service.  That said, the women here took one of the young girls aside and said, "Hey, you are not just your cleavage."

The scriptural precedent could be that if you're doing something that doesn't matter, but upsets other people, you should stop in consideration for their weakness.


You're probably referring to  Romans 14:1-4, and while I agree with you in principle, the problem is that pretty much EVERYTHING upsets somebody.  To use the specific example Paul used, do you really think that, because SOME Christians might be offended by eating meat or see non-vegetarianism as sinful, that every Christian in the world should practice vegetarianism "in consideration for their weakness"?  That seems rather extreme and impractical.

Also what about Romans 14:3 specifically, where Paul says "the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them"?  Is that not saying that God commands we NOT JUDGE the person who wears a baseball cap or shows off a little too much cleavage?


Bit of a misinterpretation there. If there were a specific Christian sect that centered around the wearing of baseball caps and exposing boobies, it would be more applicable.
 
2014-04-22 12:35:20 PM  

destrip: Even worse than church: ritzy country clubs. My sister dated a rich guy (endodontist) who was a member of the local country club, and he would invite the family up there for their buffet dinners on special occasions. One time I wore some jeans - really nice, brand new jeans - and caught hell. There was no posted prohibition of jeans, and no one said anything to my face, but the waiter eventually came over and said the maitre d' had received a complaint from one of the members that I was wearing jeans. I could not get up and go to the buffet table for the rest of the meal and had to have food brought to me, and beeline for the exit when the meal was done. One of the most humiliating experiences ever, and for wearing jeans? And to think that somebody actually had the nerve to complain about it! As one of those upper crust ladies might say, "Well, I never!"

The next year we went, the sign at the front that once read "GENTS - PLEASE REMOVE HATS" read "NO HATS, BLUE JEANS OR CELL PHONES."

Needless to say, I would never waste my money on one of those snooty clubs, even if I was raking it in.


I don't think you'll ever need to worry about that.
 
2014-04-22 12:35:34 PM  

Diogenes: Carousel Beast: It's weak to point out your hypocrisy? Sorry dude, I call it like I see them. You can't hold up the one as an example to defend and then accuse the other of the exact same thing as an attack.

I'm holding them to their own farking standards.  Not mine.  Sorry that's so hard for you to grasp.


Frankly I don't much care for either of you, so don't mistake this as me weighing in on either side. But I'm tired of reading this squabble so I'm gonna help out with this explanation:

Diogenes, you accused Group X of demanding that everyone else think (dress, believe) the same as they do. Carousel_Beast pointed out that you are criticizing Group X for, essentially, not thinking the way *you* do.

Call it imprecision, irony, or hypocrisy. I don't care, just the both of you shut up unless you have something to say other than no-I-didn't-stupidhead/yes-you-did-jerkface. I'm tired of wading through it to get to the interesting comments.
 
2014-04-22 12:37:24 PM  

Bullseyed: mjohnson71: NewWorldDan: If my wife's church is typical, they should be happy that anyone under the age of 50 is coming to church.

We split our time between our local parish up the block and our old family parish in the city. At the old city church I'd say 80% of the churchgoers are over 50. When we take our 1 and 3 year old we either get the complete stink eye of hate or smiles and approving nods. Whenever the kids are a bit noisy the priest makes sure to mention that a church filled with the cries of youth is a growing church.

/Wish it had a crying room

Always hated that. When I was a kid I was capable of sitting in the pew and paying attention. I'm talking kids and not babies of course, but these days they seem to let kids do whatever they want instead of just babies.

That and the whole "selfie" thing is getting out of control. At Easter mass a couple and their two girls were taking pictures in front of the altar right before mass. Was like wtf...

Family in front of me had 3 kids, had them wearing little wicker fedoras. I know not that long ago women had to keep their heads covered at mass, but since then we hit the "it is disrespectful to wear a hat in church" thing. Anyway, the kids were talking and climbing all over in the pews. When I was that age I would have had my mouth covered if I tried talking and smacked with a hymnal for using the pew as a playground.


You do realize the phrase is "suffer the children to come unto me", not "the children must suffer".  Hell, even into the 1600s it wasn't unheard of for animals to be allowed to wander into services.  One of the complaints about Laude was that he erected a fence around the altar to stop dogs from pissing on it.  This implies that (a) dogs were allowed into services, (b) said dog hiking his leg on the altar not only wasn't seen as weird, but that preventing the dog from doing so was seen as beyond the pale, and (c) even the High church fascist had no problem with the dog in church, but only the pissing on the altar part.

Easter ought to be boisterous and fun.  I don't want to know why the family was taking a selfie - I want to know why you weren't.  Do you think the multitudes mentioned in the gospels were all lined up in solemn rows, with the children bound and gagged?  No.  Unless the disciples were standing there with drawn weapons, cutting down people left and right, the crowds were doing what crowds have been doing forever: milling around, holding side conversations, and trying half-heartedly to snag children running around being kids
 
2014-04-22 12:42:01 PM  
A few years ago, the youth choir was expected to perform and then sit in the choir loft for the remainder of the service.  By the next time, a modesty rail had been installed, and the parents had all received written rules of dress, especially geared to young ladies' hemlines, bustlines, and sheerness.  The boys were expected to wear collared shirts, with no extra writing.  The parents howled until someone (not me, but I wish it had been) pointed out that "Basic Instinct" was not a good role model for girls under the age of 18.  Since the parents were unwilling to teach the kids modesty, the youth director and choir leader had to step in and come up with a fix. The youth choir now wears khakis and polo shirts.  If you want to perform, you gotta buy the uniform.

And if any of you saw the article posted yesterday, the mother of the Kardashian clan wore a freakin' miniskirt on Sunday.  It was hideous.  No Class At All.
 
2014-04-22 12:42:26 PM  

Bullseyed: Always hated that. When I was a kid I was capable of sitting in the pew and paying attention. I'm talking kids and not babies of course, but these days they seem to let kids do whatever they want instead of just babies.


That's part of the reason we go: to try and teach our 3 year old to sit down, shut up and listen for just a little bit.
 
2014-04-22 12:45:13 PM  

hstein3: phalamir: Traditional Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with jeremiads about how 1830s America was the Golden Age of Christianity and if the darkies, women, and poor would just accept that rape and lynching are God's gifts life would be better.

Contemporary Service = soul-crushing monotony interspersed with horribly vapid songs performed by people so musically incompetent passers-by would charge them for busking.

I always thought you couldn't get more useless than a traditional service - until I attended a contemporary one and realized there were entire depths of vacuousness that had not been plumbed.  Pretty much gave up on church after that, when I realized that in 25 years, I had heard a grand total of 3 sermons that weren't complete dreck.

Well, at least it didn't turn you cynical.


Dude, being exposed to American Christianity would turn Pollyanna cynical.  Hell, if Jesus showed up this Sunday at any random church in America, I suspect he would be begging them to nail him back up on the cross before the end of the second hymn.

I have this image of God announcing the Second Coming, and Jesus' reply being to repeat Mark 15:34
 
2014-04-22 12:46:07 PM  
This thread reminded me of what happened to me this past Sunday. Sometimes you just aren't meant to be dressed nicely. I had on work-boots, faded jeans, a tooled leather belt that matched the boots, and a dark pink longsleeved button-down, tucked in with the sleeves rolled up to the elbow. That's about as nice as I ever dress for church, but this is small-town Texas, and that's pretty standard Church Of Christ Sunday attire. Five minutes into the service however, my 5-month-old niece PAINTS me with puke, chest to lap. I really didn't think her belly could hold that much, and I guess not since it came back up. So I hand the little monster back to her parents, and stroll my puke-plastered self back down the aisle and out to my truck, where I had a change of clothes, and I got to finish Easter Sunday wearing brown leather flip-flops, khaki cargo shorts and a John Deere t-shirt. Fist-bump, niece number two.
 
2014-04-22 12:46:49 PM  

mjohnson71: Bullseyed: Always hated that. When I was a kid I was capable of sitting in the pew and paying attention. I'm talking kids and not babies of course, but these days they seem to let kids do whatever they want instead of just babies.

That's part of the reason we go: to try and teach our 3 year old to sit down, shut up and listen for just a little bit.


If you need church to instill that in your kid, please turn your child over to Family Services and then sterilize yourselves.
 
2014-04-22 12:49:53 PM  

DarkVader: There's a much better way of dealing with church than dressing up or not dressing up.

Just don't farking go.  Stay in bed, mow the lawn, get a beej, whatever you feel like.  Because your god isn't real, and there's no point wasting your time or money on badly written fiction.


Now, speaking of tiresome hypocrisy and people who need to just shut up. I'm looking at all you hipster atheists. And yes, that's what it is. Genuine atheists believe what they believe (or disbelieve as the case may be), and while they don't hide it, they don't feel the need to go dick-wagging in the faces of those who do believe in God.

*Hipster* atheists, OTOH, post condescending shiat like this because it's currently trendy. You've got an FSM decal on your car bumper, you stopped redditing when r/atheism got kicked off the defaults list (but you secretly reddit anyway), and-- such an irony-- you roll your eyes as publicly as you can at people who *don't believe what you believe.* And boy you can't wait for one of those atheist churches to open in your city.

The only good thing about it is that, when it inevitably *stops* being trendy, all your smug hypocrisy will still be on the internet. Exposed forever. You'd better open an alt account now if you don't want to look like a newbie when you have to abandon your current accounts.

Lifehack (since you hipsters love those): any time you're being condescending, you're probably wrong and you're definitely an ashhole.
 
2014-04-22 12:50:06 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: Our church ministers to street people.  One of the traditional guys couldn't take the dirt and smells.  He would just about cry when the street folks would break the bread in line ahead of him.  Pastor said, "There was nothing clean and tidy about the crucifixion."  He was also 'germ phobic,' so we started cutting up some of the bread so that people wouldn't touch his portion.  He still left our church.

The remaining people in their Sunday best love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence.  There's a lot of care & compassion going on.

/Evangelical



Do your pews have shiat stains on them?

Funny how people can be convinced that if they just do one thing, they become holier than thou. In this case,  "love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence", if you want to be  one of the team. If you are one of us, you'll do it!!!
 
2014-04-22 12:50:48 PM  

cptjeff: hasty ambush: showed some respect for the occasion.

That's the key. Respect. People hate the idea that they should have to respect anything.

rev. dave: Your respect is not always shown by what you wear, but how you act.

How you dress is part of how you act. It's a conscious choice. When you are choosing to wear informal clothing to a formal occasion, you are acting, and your actions are showing disrespect for your surroundings and for the other people there who did take the time to look presentable.

bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?

What would make you think that? Because somebody has the temerity to say something that doesn't support your pre-existing opinions about how great it is to dress like a slob?


This. I have never believed in casual days dress code.  What message are you sending?  Four days  a week we take things serious but one day we are not?  Does the client/customer/vendor think we are also not taking things serious that day when it comes to their account?   Conversely if one day is OK why not the other four?
 
2014-04-22 12:50:54 PM  

phalamir: Easter ought to be boisterous and fun.  I don't want to know why the family was taking a selfie - I want to know why you weren't.


Because I'm not a disrespectful, self obsessed person who puts my own wants or needs in front of those of others. If you're visiting someone's home for dinner, you don't go lay in their bed, look through their closet or take a dump in the master bathroom.

People are praying at church, focusing on the altar or tabernacle. It is rude to come between them. It demonstrates a lack of respect for your fellow man and a lack of reverence for the place you are in.

When I visited Hindu and Buddhist temples in China, I didn't take pictures inside. It is a place of worship, not a tourist destination. In areas where people were praying or meditating, I was silent. It is rude to interrupt them.
 
2014-04-22 12:51:51 PM  
But shiat, it was 99 cents!!

i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-22 12:52:28 PM  

bhcompy: How does questioning the absurd reasoning behind someone suggesting that not wearing a suit reduces productivity


You didn't do that. You called the poster a troll. And in fact, he's got a pretty good argument. He also has some evidence- personal experience from several decades as a business consultant, responsible for gauging things like productivity, working in different business environments with different dress codes. That makes him credible as an expert on business dynamics (if what he's saying is true, and I have no reason to think he's lying), and allows him to make direct comparison. Expert opinion is citable as a source in just about any publication on the planet, and I've seen other experts in business and psychology make the same case. You responded with ad hominem and mockery, not substance.
 
2014-04-22 12:53:04 PM  

phalamir: Dude, being exposed to American Christianity would turn Pollyanna cynical.  Hell, if Jesus showed up this Sunday at any random church in America, I suspect he would be begging them to nail him back up on the cross before the end of the second hymn.

I have this image of God announcing the Second Coming, and Jesus' reply being to repeat Mark 15:34


We get it, you're a crazy fundie. Enjoy your WBC ceremonies.
 
2014-04-22 12:58:16 PM  

Bullseyed: phalamir: Dude, being exposed to American Christianity would turn Pollyanna cynical.  Hell, if Jesus showed up this Sunday at any random church in America, I suspect he would be begging them to nail him back up on the cross before the end of the second hymn.

I have this image of God announcing the Second Coming, and Jesus' reply being to repeat Mark 15:34

We get it, you're a crazy fundie. Enjoy your WBC ceremonies.


I don't think it is possible to express how off base you are without using scientific notation
 
2014-04-22 01:05:46 PM  
Dressing nicely is pretty well understood as a sign of respect. God does not love you more or less depending on your clothing, and you are not more or less saved based on what you wear. But any good Christian should say, hey, I've been given forgiveness of my sins and the promise of everlasting life after death. Maybe I should do good things unto my fellow man and honor and serve God during my life on this earth.

You don't do this to get in good with God, you do this because you are acknowledging what God has already done for you.

It is not unreasonable to suggest wearing something more than your everyday garments when you stop what you are doing normally and specifically try to pay attention to God for that 55 minutes or so each week. If your present station on earth doesn't include having nice clothes, no problem. But if you have been blessed with money and goods and you do have the means to dress well, perhaps you should.
 
2014-04-22 01:12:00 PM  

bhcompy: This is why churches like Calvary continue to grow while Catholicism and other frumpy, tradition heavy churches stagnate.  There is nothing wrong with going to church in cargo shorts and flipflops.  Hell, Jesus wore a toga.


To be fair, only the most vile, evil men wore trousers back then, since they had no morals and was seen as a sign of being untrustworthy. A number of wars were fought over the centuries with those sickos who would wear trousers back in the day.
 
2014-04-22 01:15:07 PM  

Its Still Real to Me Damnit!: But shiat, it was 99 cents!!

[i.imgur.com image 575x862]


If I had a coat like that, I'd be like the second greatest bro of all-time or something. F*cking alpha as sh*t. I'd wear it to take my morning s*** and I'd look great in it doing so - wearing nothing else mind you. Be pretty nice.
 
2014-04-22 01:15:37 PM  
When I was first checking out the Unitarian church, I called and asked about what to wear for services. The lady I spoke to said "well, you could wear a suit if you really want to, but you'd be the exception. We much prefer that people be comfortable, so your regular weekend clothes are fine."
 
2014-04-22 01:16:02 PM  

Mr. Right: Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity.  I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country.  During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices.  Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes


Well your assertion is disproven by facts, productivity has increased consistantly in the past 25 years.

http://www.bls.gov/lpc/prodybar.htm
 
2014-04-22 01:16:52 PM  

Bullseyed: don't criticize someone if their best dress isn't very good, but everyone still should dress the best they can.


QFT
 
2014-04-22 01:23:04 PM  

Bullseyed: Family in front of me had 3 kids, had them wearing little wicker fedoras. I know not that long ago women had to keep their heads covered at mass, but since then we hit the "it is disrespectful to wear a hat in church" thing. Anyway, the kids were talking and climbing all over in the pews. When I was that age I would have had my mouth covered if I tried talking and smacked with a hymnal for using the pew as a playground.


Better your church than the shiatheads who drag their spastic crotchfruit into bars and restaraunts like in my neighborhood.
 
2014-04-22 01:25:47 PM  

bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?


It's not and, except for the bit about productivity, I agree. Don't show up to your brother's wedding in pajamas. Don't show up to grandpa's funeral in shorts and a Juggaloes tee. Don't show up to the classy gentleman's club in a collar-less shirt.

Seriously, dressing better for the nudie bar than for church? Yes: unlike the nudie bar, the church will (or should) warmly welcome you *whatever* you wear. That doesn't mean you take advantage of that by wearing crap if you've got better. God doesn't care, but show some respect for where you are and the people you're with.

/many of you arguing with this think jeans sagging is a social blight. Yet you can't see a problem here. Wtf?
 
2014-04-22 01:37:12 PM  

ciberido: gunslinger_RG: Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it.   American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.  You dress for church, women have a certain role, gays don't come out of the closet, and black men don't get to be president.  It is why they make no sense in terms of actual Christianity because that is not in any way shape or form what they are fighting for at all.

They are pissed the world changed and their traditions are giving way.. as all traditions must... to a new dawn and a new age.

One of the biggest controversies among Christians today (in terms of what causes a regular churchgoer to leave one church to go to another) is whether the church service uses "modern" or "traditional" music.  This includes replacing choirs with "praise teams," or using "nontraditional" instruments like drums and guitars, or singing newer songs in addition to the ones your grandmother sang at church.  Churches actually self-destruct over this issue.  New pastor comes in, maybe brings in a new music director, someone decides to update the music, adds new songs, brings in a praise team with drums and guitars, and the people over 50 go nuts.  There are arguments, meetings, the new guy refuses to go back to the way it was, and most of the older folks go to some other church that still does things the old fashioned way.  Then, because the congregation is only half the size it used to be, there are budget cuts, projects get cancelled, more people drift away.  The church may weather the storm and bounce back, or it may implode.

Down the street, the traditional church?  It's less dramatic, but it's dwindling because most of the congregation is that over-50 crowd and they're not getting any younger.  They're loyal and they stick with the church to the bitter end, but the nice young couples with two kids who just moved into the area won't join.  They don't want 12 people in robes singing "Bringing in the Sheaves" while Mildred the octogenarian plays the piano.  No young couples and no kids means this church is dying, too --- just more slowly.  When you have more funerals than baptisms plus weddings, you're doomed.

Some churches try to keep everyone happy by having both a "contemporary" service and a "traditional service," but that has its own set of problems.  It's much more work for everyone involved, for one thing, and it really only works if your congregation was large enough (compared to the size of the physical building) that you pretty much needed to do double services anyway to accommodate the numbers.  And even then the mere fact that a contemporary service happens is enough to piss off some of the more crotchety oldtimers.

Yes, it's petty and trivial and ridiculous, but this is causing churches to self-destruct all over the USA.  And that's just the music, don't even get me started on pews and baptismal immersion and a million other nitpicks that churchgoers lose their freaking minds over.


All of which is the result of human frailties, the way we cling to what we're individually used to. Over, as you say, little things like the style of music.

And then everybody loses their minds when the Catholics "refuse to get with the 21st century" over issues with actual faith implications like reproductive technology.

Anyone who thinks about human nature for even half an hour can't be surprised that the Church changes glacially on many things. If it didn't, the balkanization of Protestantism would be tiny by comparison.
 
2014-04-22 01:38:00 PM  
Jesus is too busy cutting your grass to care
 
2014-04-22 01:38:19 PM  

ObscureNameHere: Needlessly Complicated: Heh. Reminds me of when I was a kid in Puerto Rico and Sunday morning church was basically a fashion show. Puerto Ricans dress appropriately (and possibly overdress) for everything. If I went to church now, I'd feel weird going in jeans or flip-flops but realize that if there is an all-loving God, He probably wouldn't care what you're wearing. Cuz he would love you. (Obviously he doesn't cuz, well... look at the world we live in now. But that's my problem, I'll deal with it.)

Wouldn't the heels the ladies wear there chip the marble? :)

Been to PR 3 times, 2 on business, once for fun.  Doesn't seem to matter how tall a lady is in PR, she is rockin' 3" heels *minimum* at the office.

/also the cathedral in Old San Juan is beautiful


Probably. :)

And it's kinda like that in Dallas, too.

I used to wear high heels all the time. These days, not so much. They hurt my feet. And the really high platforms? I get vertigo just looking at them. I don't know how all these women do it.
 
2014-04-22 01:41:00 PM  

bhcompy: This is why churches like Calvary continue to grow while Catholicism and other frumpy, tradition heavy churches stagnate.  There is nothing wrong with going to church in cargo shorts and flipflops.  Hell, Jesus wore a toga.


Wat???  Have you been to a mass lately?  I go in jeans and a golf shirt and that is pretty dressy.  The closest our priest ever came to saying anything about dress was at the 5:30 pm mass on Sunday.  They add that one during the summer for people coming back from the beach.  He just asked that you change out of bikini's before "SERVING" communion.  They may have relaxed a little since you went... maybe.

I mean there are some African ladies who wear these AMAZING dresses and their husbands are decked out too.. and some of the Indian ladies dress in traditional Indian garb which is pretty well put together.  In fact, I like looking around and seeing all kinds, colors, and what not of people.  I don't know, for me, makes me feel like maybe this is how it should be.   If I looked around and only saw boring old white dudes like me... I would be gone.
 
2014-04-22 01:41:04 PM  

brimed03: It's not and, except for the bit about productivity, I agree. Don't show up to your brother's wedding in pajamas. Don't show up to grandpa's funeral in shorts and a Juggaloes tee. Don't show up to the classy gentleman's club in a collar-less shirt.

Seriously, dressing better for the nudie bar than for church? Yes: unlike the nudie bar, the church will (or should) warmly welcome you *whatever* you wear. That doesn't mean you take advantage of that by wearing crap if you've got better. God doesn't care, but show some respect for where you are and the people you're with.


People should certainly understand where they are and dress applicably, you should not show up to formal events like a funeral or a wedding outside of how that event expects people to dress.  That would be disrespectful to the *people* hosting the event.

I suppose churches should set this expectation before a question of "disrespect" can be ascertained - if it is a formal church that expects it, than I assume that could be taken as "disrspectful" towards those who run the church (although, If I were still a follower of mesopotamian mythology I would probably think it is more disrespectful to waste money that could be going to helping the poor and dry cleaning my suit so that I can show off to my peers in a meaningless display of peacocking).

The idiots who decry the fact that people no longer dress up to get on planes, or that employees who don't see customers should somehow have to wear suits like I do are just old people angry that the world has changed, just like I am sure their grandparents decried thing x they did that was 'disrespectful' to their lemming like servitude towards tradition.
 
2014-04-22 01:45:11 PM  
We've lost something in our society in the past few years.   I went to a funeral last week and was surprised to see many professional people wearing shorts and sports shirts to the wake.  To me it's a sign of respect to dress appropriately to certain functions.
 
2014-04-22 01:45:38 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: Its Still Real to Me Damnit!: But shiat, it was 99 cents!!

[i.imgur.com image 575x862]

If I had a coat like that, I'd be like the second greatest bro of all-time or something. F*cking alpha as sh*t. I'd wear it to take my morning s*** and I'd look great in it doing so - wearing nothing else mind you. Be pretty nice.


costumei.com
 
2014-04-22 01:46:13 PM  

lilplatinum: Mr. Right: Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity.  I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country.  During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices.  Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes

Well your assertion is disproven by facts, productivity has increased consistantly in the past 25 years.

http://www.bls.gov/lpc/prodybar.htm


Unless I read those charts incorrectly, they were referring to labor productivity.  When it comes to manufacturing productivity and the productivity of jobs like writing code or doing CAD drawings, there is absolutely no doubt that productivity is much higher than at any time in history and it will only continue to grow as we learn how to better utilize existing technologies and develop new ones.  When someone is working on tasks either on a machine or in an office on a solo basis, how one dresses is unimportant.  But in the "soft" jobs like management, HR, etc. and in meetings and collaborative projects, it was my experience that the more casually people dressed, the more casually they performed.   It was much easier to sidetrack discussions, harder to keep a group focused.  The only thing that wrecked a meeting more was somebody bringing donuts in half-way through the meeting.

Probably the worst part (and only peripherally affected productivity) was that how someone dressed became a subject of discussion.  When all your suits are some shade of  navy blue or dark gray (a really wild suit was one with a chalk stripe instead of a pin stripe) all your shirts are white, all your socks are black, your power ties go with about any dark color of suit you own, and your greatest deliberation is which pair of black wing-tips to wear today, getting dressed can be accomplished in the dark.  Once you go casual, you have to consider whether this shirt goes with these slacks; whether these shoes match the rest of your ensemble or are too casual/dressy; should I wear a jacket or a sweater?  What kind of sweater?  Does this sportcoat match the slacks/shirt?  I know that women have been doing this all their lives but us olde phart guys had one hell of a learning curve.
 
2014-04-22 01:48:48 PM  

cptjeff: ciberido: cptjeff: bhcompy: Mr. Right: When I first entered the ranks of management, office workers were expected to wear suits, white shirts, and ties. One could remove one's jacket in the confines of his office but jackets were always worn at meetings or when meeting with customers or suppliers. Women often wore suits but with skirts. Nowadays, wearing a tie in an office is a rarity. I was a consultant for over 25 years and worked with clients all over the country. During that part of my career is when the dress codes changed in offices. Having observed the change in a couple of companies, including 2 Fortune 100 companies, I would posit that productivity declined after the relaxation of dress codes. The employees didn't become dumber or lazier or less creative but the sense of urgency, the standards of professionalism, and the sense of decorum dropped dramatically.

Is this a troll account that I'm not aware of?


What would make you think that? Because somebody has the temerity to say something that doesn't support your pre-existing opinions about how great it is to dress like a slob?

Wow, you REALLY enjoying making up other people's motives, I see.  You know, if people disagreeing with you chaps your ass this much, Fark might not be the best place for you.

Oh, poor little baby. Did somebody on the internet hurt your feelings?


No, I'm just mildly curious why you are being so belligerent to so many different people.  By all means, if you are enjoying yourself, carry on.  I admit, some people do like being angry, so you may be in exactly the right place.
 
2014-04-22 01:49:38 PM  

brimed03: Seriously, dressing better for the nudie bar than for church? Yes: unlike the nudie bar, the church will (or should) warmly welcome you *whatever* you wear. That doesn't mean you take advantage of that by wearing crap if you've got better. God doesn't care, but show some respect for where you are and the people you're with.



Apparently, there are some churches where you can wear actual crap, and urine too, running down your leg, and the well dressed rich will love on you for it. Go figure.
 
2014-04-22 01:51:09 PM  
Oh bother, Mr Preacher, DO NOT go to a biker church. Not everyone wants to get up and throw on a suit and tie (or long dress) to hear someone speak for a few minutes, and constantly sit/stand for songs of praise. The clothing appropriate for a typical white-collar job is sufficient for going to church.
 
2014-04-22 01:52:15 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: ciberido: You're probably referring to  Romans 14:1-4, and while I agree with you in principle, the problem is that pretty much EVERYTHING upsets somebody.  To use the specific example Paul used, do you really think that, because SOME Christians might be offended by eating meat or see non-vegetarianism as sinful, that every Christian in the world should practice vegetarianism "in consideration for their weakness"?  That seems rather extreme and impractical.

Also what about Romans 14:3 specifically, where Paul says "the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them"?  Is that not saying that God commands we NOT JUDGE the person who wears a baseball cap or shows off a little too much cleavage?

Of course.  I didn't say every situation.  You have to weigh the act against the effect.


Fair enough.
 
2014-04-22 01:52:51 PM  

cptjeff: bhcompy: How does questioning the absurd reasoning behind someone suggesting that not wearing a suit reduces productivity

You didn't do that. You called the poster a troll. And in fact, he's got a pretty good argument. He also has some evidence- personal experience from several decades as a business consultant, responsible for gauging things like productivity, working in different business environments with different dress codes. That makes him credible as an expert on business dynamics (if what he's saying is true, and I have no reason to think he's lying), and allows him to make direct comparison. Expert opinion is citable as a source in just about any publication on the planet, and I've seen other experts in business and psychology make the same case. You responded with ad hominem and mockery, not substance.


upload.wikimedia.org

It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this
 
2014-04-22 01:55:37 PM  

WeenerGord: Felix_T_Cat: Our church ministers to street people.  One of the traditional guys couldn't take the dirt and smells.  He would just about cry when the street folks would break the bread in line ahead of him.  Pastor said, "There was nothing clean and tidy about the crucifixion."  He was also 'germ phobic,' so we started cutting up some of the bread so that people wouldn't touch his portion.  He still left our church.

The remaining people in their Sunday best love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence.  There's a lot of care & compassion going on.

/Evangelical


Do your pews have shiat stains on them?

Funny how people can be convinced that if they just do one thing, they become holier than thou. In this case,  "love on the people with urine and fecal incontinence", if you want to be  one of the team. If you are one of us, you'll do it!!!


Well, they're chairs, not pews per se.  Really, there are 2 or 3 guys who are incontinent out of 50 of us. The rest of us have different problems.  They can't help it.  Not gonna a judge a guy based on something he can't control.  We care about them as individuals.  Everybody's story is their own.  One guy was abandoned as a child because of his TBI, another other was injured (TBI) in the military.  Some of the homeless come in with dirty clothes, so we give them clean clothes and they can clean up.  If a guy is a little drunk or high, he doesn't get turned away.  Bleeding or injured people get evaluated by a nurse.

We do what we can to give them dignity and friendship.  It's not an act, I really do like these guys.  We work with social work agencies to get them services.  We help the agencies locate people and attend case conferences with them.  This isn't coming from some sort of BS holier than thou or tolerance crap.  It's about relieving someone's suffering.  Also, we can reach people that the agencies can't.

I guess it's easy to suppose that there's some sort of 'Erma Gerhd it's a church so condescension .'  Or 'you can't really like people, you're just getting brownie points with people or God.'  One guy actually said, "You can't really like me, you're just a soft touch."  I dunno, when I was an atheist, I didn't hate groups or even churches.  I hated individuals for their actions.  But I did suspect people's motivations too.

We're just doing what a church is supposed to do.  Share Jesus, support people.  There's enough problems in the world.  As a group, our little church is good at a particular set of problems.  If you see a need, have at it.  It doesn't have to be what we're doing.
 
2014-04-22 01:56:25 PM  

brimed03: DarkVader: There's a much better way of dealing with church than dressing up or not dressing up.

Just don't farking go.  Stay in bed, mow the lawn, get a beej, whatever you feel like.  Because your god isn't real, and there's no point wasting your time or money on badly written fiction.

Now, speaking of tiresome hypocrisy and people who need to just shut up. I'm looking at all you hipster atheists. And yes, that's what it is. Genuine atheists believe what they believe (or disbelieve as the case may be), and while they don't hide it, they don't feel the need to go dick-wagging in the faces of those who do believe in God.

*Hipster* atheists, OTOH, post condescending shiat like this because it's currently trendy. You've got an FSM decal on your car bumper, you stopped redditing when r/atheism got kicked off the defaults list (but you secretly reddit anyway), and-- such an irony-- you roll your eyes as publicly as you can at people who *don't believe what you believe.* And boy you can't wait for one of those atheist churches to open in your city.


I've been calling them "asshat atheists" but I rather like "hipster atheist."
 
2014-04-22 02:01:47 PM  

Felix_T_Cat: One guy was abandoned as a child because of his TBI, another other was injured (TBI) in the military



Because of his what? What is TBI?
 
2014-04-22 02:02:02 PM  

bhcompy: cptjeff: bhcompy: How does questioning the absurd reasoning behind someone suggesting that not wearing a suit reduces productivity

You didn't do that. You called the poster a troll. And in fact, he's got a pretty good argument. He also has some evidence- personal experience from several decades as a business consultant, responsible for gauging things like productivity, working in different business environments with different dress codes. That makes him credible as an expert on business dynamics (if what he's saying is true, and I have no reason to think he's lying), and allows him to make direct comparison. Expert opinion is citable as a source in just about any publication on the planet, and I've seen other experts in business and psychology make the same case. You responded with ad hominem and mockery, not substance.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x364]

It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this


When I first graduated college and got my first real programming job as a consultant for AT&T, I was required to dress in a business suit everyday with a white shirt and shoes (with laces) and there was a facial hair requirement.  A few years ago I saw nearly a whole development group explode because they asked that we not wear flip flops and shorts with holes in them to work.  In business, you want to reflect what your customer expects.  Today, customers have a very different expectations for programmers.

Let's say, you are paying me between 120 and 150 an hour.  My going rate for consulting.  Today would people think they were getting a top notch programmer if they came in an saw a spit an polish office with me in a suit or would they feel like they were getting the best if they saw my desk with an assortment of empty Red Bull cans, a few Mountain Dew bottles, and a half a cup of coffee, the place as disheveled as I look.  I look like I could have been living at that desk for days and seem rather hurky jerky in my speech and movements.  Trust me.. they want to buy the stereotype.. hey they are the customer.
 
2014-04-22 02:02:39 PM  

bhcompy: It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this


My original post said nothing about labor productivity.  I was referring to management productivity.  Those are the folks that had their dress code relaxed, not labor.  There is a difference between management and labor.  Anyone who has ever had a job more advanced than 2nd temporary assistant part-time French Fry salter knows this.
 
2014-04-22 02:07:35 PM  

WeenerGord: Felix_T_Cat: One guy was abandoned as a child because of his TBI, another other was injured (TBI) in the military


Because of his what? What is TBI?


Traumatic brain injury.  There are a couple of group homes and an agency in the area that specialize in brain injury.
 
2014-04-22 02:09:14 PM  

bhcompy: cptjeff: bhcompy: How does questioning the absurd reasoning behind someone suggesting that not wearing a suit reduces productivity

You didn't do that. You called the poster a troll. And in fact, he's got a pretty good argument. He also has some evidence- personal experience from several decades as a business consultant, responsible for gauging things like productivity, working in different business environments with different dress codes. That makes him credible as an expert on business dynamics (if what he's saying is true, and I have no reason to think he's lying), and allows him to make direct comparison. Expert opinion is citable as a source in just about any publication on the planet, and I've seen other experts in business and psychology make the same case. You responded with ad hominem and mockery, not substance.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x364]

It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this


But that productivity has more to due with technology and automation doing more of the work not people working harder

s3.amazonaws.com

static.betazeta.com

patrickbaty.co.uk

www.uvisor.com
 
2014-04-22 02:09:42 PM  

Oreamnos: Dressing nicely is pretty well understood as a sign of respect. God does not love you more or less depending on your clothing, and you are not more or less saved based on what you wear. But any good Christian should say, hey, I've been given forgiveness of my sins and the promise of everlasting life after death. Maybe I should do good things unto my fellow man and honor and serve God during my life on this earth.

You don't do this to get in good with God, you do this because you are acknowledging what God has already done for you.



Personally I'm of the school of thought that a Christian's prime directive is to convince non-Christians they should give Christianity a try.  Everything else, even praising God, giving thanks unto Him, etc. is subordinate to that.  I can praise God all the live-long day once I'm in Heaven.  But I won't be meeting many non-Christians up there, will I?  So I'd better focus on the non-Christians while I can --- while I'm on Earth.

To be honest, I don't give what I wear to church that much thought, but if I do think the matter over, the question in my mind is, "What will give the best possible impression to any non-Christians visiting the church today?" not "What will look the most pious?" or "What will get the approval of my fellow Christians?"

Frankly, if Christianity is true and Christians are going to heaven, then nothing I say or do is going to matter one iota with respect to other Christians, so why should I worry in the slightest what you think?  It's the non-Christians I should be trying to influence, and the message I would hope to send isn't "Look how pious and respectful and thankful I am!"

And if Christianity isn't true, then we're all just wasting our time in church, aren't we?  So we might as well be comfortable while doing it.
 
2014-04-22 02:13:34 PM  

gunslinger_RG: bhcompy: cptjeff: bhcompy: How does questioning the absurd reasoning behind someone suggesting that not wearing a suit reduces productivity

You didn't do that. You called the poster a troll. And in fact, he's got a pretty good argument. He also has some evidence- personal experience from several decades as a business consultant, responsible for gauging things like productivity, working in different business environments with different dress codes. That makes him credible as an expert on business dynamics (if what he's saying is true, and I have no reason to think he's lying), and allows him to make direct comparison. Expert opinion is citable as a source in just about any publication on the planet, and I've seen other experts in business and psychology make the same case. You responded with ad hominem and mockery, not substance.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x364]

It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this

When I first graduated college and got my first real programming job as a consultant for AT&T, I was required to dress in a business suit everyday with a white shirt and shoes (with laces) and there was a facial hair requirement.  A few years ago I saw nearly a whole development group explode because they asked that we not wear flip flops and shorts with holes in them to work.  In business, you want to reflect what your customer expects.  Today, customers have a very different expectations for programmers.

Let's say, you are paying me between 120 and 150 an hour.  My going rate for consulting.  Today would people think they were getting a top notch programmer if they came in an saw a spit an polish office with me in a suit or would they feel like they were getting the best if they saw my desk with an assortment of empty Red Bull cans, a few Mountain Dew bottle ...


Clients (huge companies) used to really appreciate my appearance when I showed up in a suit, but with long hair and hiking boots.  "Oh, you must really know what you're doing.  'Cause if you didn't, your bosses would have you cut your hair."
 
2014-04-22 02:20:18 PM  

Mr. Right:  But in the "soft" jobs like management, HR, etc. and in meetings and collaborative projects, it was my experience that the more casually people dressed, the more casually they performed.   It was much easier to sidetrack discussions, harder to keep a group focused.  The only thing that wrecked a meeting more was somebody bringing donuts in half-way through the meeting.


Well that is a conveniently more difficult thing to metric efficiency, but I still question it.  My corporate experience has also been both having to wear suits and, now, where we all wear jeans and t-shirts to work unless clients are coming in.    I found that when we all wore suits to work it was more of an old boy network and we all thought we were in an episode of madmen - sexist jokes, more drinking during work hours, etc.  

Far more efficient now.   I think most observations people make are colored by their age and world view, everyone always looks down on how next generations change their dress-up transitions.

Probably the worst part (and only peripherally affected productivity) was that how someone dressed became a subject of discussion.  When all your suits are some shade of  navy blue or dark gray (a really wild suit was one with a chalk stripe instead of a pin stripe) all your shirts are white, all your socks are black, your power ties go with about any dark color of suit you own, and your greatest deliberation is which pair of black wing-tips to wear today, getting dressed can be accomplished in the dark.

Thank god.  I do enjoy dressing well when going out, and the whole 80s suit mentality was a farking atrocity this world is better off without.
 
2014-04-22 02:22:23 PM  

Mr. Right: bhcompy: It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this

My original post said nothing about labor productivity.  I was referring to management productivity.  Those are the folks that had their dress code relaxed, not labor.  There is a difference between management and labor.  Anyone who has ever had a job more advanced than 2nd temporary assistant part-time French Fry salter knows this.


I would venture to guess that management productivity issues can be linked to title inflation and inadequate (or non-existent) management training programs, though they are probably closely linked to the dress code issue. Or perhaps that is just my own experience. I have so many "managers" running around my organization that have no direct reports I just want to rip my hair out, yet many of my colleagues defend this by saying it increases workplace satisfaction by basically handing out meaningless titles. Most of these managers couldn't lead a team out of a wet paper bag if they had one to lead, and the people who supervise them often never received any management training themselves.
 
2014-04-22 02:31:53 PM  

lilplatinum: Thank god. I do enjoy dressing well when going out, and the whole 80s suit mentality was a farking atrocity this world is better off without.


Getting dressed is certainly less expensive without the suits but for "portly" men, suits are way more flattering than any polo shirt is ever going to be.
 
2014-04-22 02:35:40 PM  

brimed03: And then everybody loses their minds when the Catholics "refuse to get with the 21st century" over issues with actual faith implications like reproductive technology.


I realize you aren't speaking of me specifically, and I hesitate to say anything to you that is defensive or argumentative, since you've been very polite and rational, two characteristics rather uncommon in Fark threads.  Yet I'd like to address that point all the same, and I'm sorry to say it will be argumentative.  Bear in mind I am a Christian but not a Catholic; if that makes my argument any more or less valid in your mind, so be it.

None of these issues are new.  Birth control predates Jesus.  Abortion predates Jesus.  Gay marriage predates the Bible (even if it didn't, would you argue the Bible forbids something that didn't exist yet?)  Female priests predate Christianity, and the Catholic Church in particular ordained female bishops and deaconesses for hundreds of years before that changed in the 12th century.   As  Ecclesiastes 1:9 says, there is nothing new under the sun.  So, I'm sorry, but "the Church changes glacially on many things" isn't really an excuse.  You have had since before you even existed to "get with the times" --- and the farking BC times at that.

If you truly believe that the Catholic Church's positions reflect the Will of God, then by all means, stick to your guns and more power to you.  We can agree to disagree and go our separate ways.  But please do not try to make excuses about history and tradition and slow change.  None of that applies to topics that predate the birth of Christ.
 
2014-04-22 02:38:46 PM  
Because the Christ only chatted up the folks in ties.
 
2014-04-22 02:39:49 PM  

bhcompy: It's pretty much unquestionable and common knowledge that labor productivity has grown almost every year since it started being tracked, which is why I asked if it was a troll. Anyone who has taken economics in high school or college knows this


And that's largely due to computers and automation. You're using numbers from across all sectors and industries that are influenced by three zillion factors. That is to say, completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Anybody who's done a middle school science project knows that you need to isolate your variables when testing. You can do that observational rather than experimentally, and there are multiple ways. You can observe the same population sequentially under different circumstances, or you can observe similar populations simultaneously. Sounds like Mr. Right has experience doing professional analysis in both circumstances.


naughtyrev: I would venture to guess that management productivity issues can be linked to title inflation and inadequate (or non-existent) management training programs,


That's not a bad point. There's a lot less training in offices than there used to be, probably a chicken and egg thing with the fact that people change jobs much more often. Promotions are rarer, so if you want to move up, you change jobs and move up that way. Companies have less of an incentive to train if they expect you to just move on in 5 years.
 
2014-04-22 02:41:59 PM  

ReverendJynxed: Because the Christ only chatted up the folks in ties.


Well.. he did biatch at them, and flip their money changing tables...
 
2014-04-22 02:45:42 PM  

lilplatinum: The idiots who decry the fact that people no longer dress up to get on planes, or that employees who don't see customers should somehow have to wear suits like I do are just old people angry that the world has changed, just like I am sure their grandparents decried thing x they did that was 'disrespectful' to their lemming like servitude towards tradition.


The point about air travel interests me particularly.  What has changed between now and then is not a loss of gratitude. It's the natural response to how air travel itself has changed.  When it was new and uncommon and special, it was treated as something special.  People dressed up for it, and in turn they got fairly swanky treatment.  Now that air travel is common and, well, "unspecial", it is no longer treated as something special.  The experience is made much less pleasant for the traveler (this was true even before the attacks of September 11, 2001), and people dress now accordingly.

And frankly, that's for the best.  When I fly, it's often transoceanic and hours if not days will pass between point A and point B.  Yes, wearing a dress and heels, or a suit with a tie, would be more classy.  But if I am going to sit in a narrow little chair bolted to the floor without being allowed to get up for hours at a time I think I'll take comfort over class.
 
2014-04-22 02:49:34 PM  
gunslinger_RG [TotalFark]


Everything wrong with American Christian Right is actually nut shelled in this article if you study it. American Christian right fundie's today, are not arguing over actual tenets of Christian dogma or parts of high theology but they are up in arms over their TRADITIONS as they have come to know them.

Churches adopt casual dress. Article even describes preachers in jeans and casual shirts

Farktard response "derp fundy up in arms over casual clothing derp derp derp.

// illiterate fool.
 
2014-04-22 02:51:33 PM  

Danger Mouse: We've lost something in our society in the past few years.


Yes, but we've also gained things.  There's always a trade-off.  I'm reminded of the monologue from Inherit the Wind: "Progress has never been a bargain.  You have to pay for it."
 
2014-04-22 02:52:07 PM  

Mr. Right: lilplatinum: Thank god. I do enjoy dressing well when going out, and the whole 80s suit mentality was a farking atrocity this world is better off without.

Getting dressed is certainly less expensive without the suits but for "portly" men, suits are way more flattering than any polo shirt is ever going to be.


I wasn't criticizing suits in general, I own about 10 and a tux and wear them fairly regularly (although I think the fact that others do not is neither disrespectful nor a sign of their degenerating managerial skills).  I was referring to "all your suits are some shade of  navy blue or dark gray (a really wild suit was one with a chalk stripe instead of a pin stripe) all your shirts are white, all your socks are black, your power ties go with about any dark color of suit you own, and your greatest deliberation is which pair of black wing-tips to wear today " - that whole 80s power suit abomination thing needs to die and be wiped from human nature.
 
2014-04-22 02:52:50 PM  
ts2.mm.bing.net
I like to dress nice for church.
 
2014-04-22 02:53:29 PM  

ciberido: And frankly, that's for the best.  When I fly, it's often transoceanic and hours if not days will pass between point A and point B.  Yes, wearing a dress and heels, or a suit with a tie, would be more classy.  But if I am going to sit in a narrow little chair bolted to the floor without being allowed to get up for hours at a time I think I'll take comfort over class.


I love the looks I get when i fly business class looking like shiat and reeking like the requisite amount of bourbon and weed I need to consume to deal with international air travel.
 
2014-04-22 02:57:30 PM  

ciberido: No, I'm just mildly curious why you are being so belligerent to so many different people.  By all means, if you are enjoying yourself, carry on.  I admit, some people do like being angry, so you may be in exactly the right place.


I like vigorous debate, and I'm not much of one to let idiocy slide by unchallenged. I respond forcefully to bullshiat and talk nicely to those who know what they're talking about. And despite often stating things forcefully, I don't get emotionally invested- your opinion is just not anywhere close to important enough for me to care. It's often easier to type what I really want to say than it is to type a nice, diplomatic reply that makes people feel like their post wasn't completely wrong when it was. So if I offend you, tough titties. You're an adult, you can handle it. There's no right to not be offended.
 
2014-04-22 03:08:23 PM  
Felix_T_Cat:
Clients (huge companies) used to really appreciate my appearance when I showed up in a suit, but with long hair and hiking boots. "Oh, you must really know what you're doing. 'Cause if you didn't, your bosses would have you cut your hair."

Eh. yes and no. There's a point  were it's goes to far.  Usually it's with personal hygene and ability to communicate. You could be a farking genius but the boss isn't going to put you  in front of a 500 milllion dollar account if your smell like shiat and talk with your mouth full. We'll let the ecentric guy who wears the tardis t shirt and  and the  socks don't match and looks like he attempted to comb his hair. The customers get's that. They think oooh, he must be an eccentric genius, but  the fat POS who farts in public, smells like a musty basement  and says he doens't care what he looks like? yea, we keep him locked in the back room.
 
2014-04-22 03:21:57 PM  

cptjeff: I like vigorous debate, and I'm not much of one to let idiocy slide by unchallenged. I respond forcefully to bullshiat and talk nicely to those who know what they're talking about. And despite often stating things forcefully, I don't get emotionally invested- your opinion is just not anywhere close to important enough for me to care.


You can keep saying that if it makes you feel better.  I think it's pretty clear to the rest of us how emotionally invested you are.  Once again, you're free to act as you like and say what you like, but it might be in your best interest to ask yourself why you're so angry with so many different people.
 
2014-04-22 03:23:48 PM  

tlars699: ReverendJynxed: Because the Christ only chatted up the folks in ties.

Well.. he did biatch at them, and flip their money changing tables...


Seems he kicked the suits out of the temple.
 
2014-04-22 03:25:17 PM  
lilplatinum:
I love the looks I get when i fly business class looking like shiat and reeking like the requisite amount of bourbon and weed I need to consume to deal with international air travel.

Looks that say "hey, you look like everybody else in business class"?
 
2014-04-22 03:25:59 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-22 03:28:16 PM  

WanPhat: lilplatinum:
I love the looks I get when i fly business class looking like shiat and reeking like the requisite amount of bourbon and weed I need to consume to deal with international air travel.

Looks that say "hey, you look like everybody else in business class"?


There are still substantially more greyhairs who wear sportcoats/suits in business class than in cattle class, and they most certainly have been known to give denigrading looks to those they think don't belong there.

Although that pales in comparison to the farking woman who brought her 4 children onto business class from Shanghai to NYC and then promptly fell asleep as they decided to bring in the chaos.
 
2014-04-22 03:31:56 PM  
We moved a couple times in the past couple years and cyber-shopped churches.  Every church, and I mean every church, advertises that they have coffee and casual dress.  The funny thing is that they all say they are "different", which is like every Starbucks saying they are different.

If you haven't been to church in awhile, this is EXACTLY how most churches are these days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giM04ESUiGw
 
2014-04-22 03:40:32 PM  

ciberido: cptjeff: I like vigorous debate, and I'm not much of one to let idiocy slide by unchallenged. I respond forcefully to bullshiat and talk nicely to those who know what they're talking about. And despite often stating things forcefully, I don't get emotionally invested- your opinion is just not anywhere close to important enough for me to care.

You can keep saying that if it makes you feel better.  I think it's pretty clear to the rest of us how emotionally invested you are.  Once again, you're free to act as you like and say what you like, but it might be in your best interest to ask yourself why you're so angry with so many different people.


My, you're full of yourself. It's interesting to learn how somebody thousands of miles away who I've never met can know my emotional state so well.

You said something moronic in the other thread. I called you out. Get over it.
 
2014-04-22 03:50:45 PM  

Danger Mouse: Felix_T_Cat:
Clients (huge companies) used to really appreciate my appearance when I showed up in a suit, but with long hair and hiking boots. "Oh, you must really know what you're doing. 'Cause if you didn't, your bosses would have you cut your hair."

Eh. yes and no. There's a point  were it's goes to far.  Usually it's with personal hygene and ability to communicate. You could be a farking genius but the boss isn't going to put you  in front of a 500 milllion dollar account if your smell like shiat and talk with your mouth full. We'll let the ecentric guy who wears the tardis t shirt and  and the  socks don't match and looks like he attempted to comb his hair. The customers get's that. They think oooh, he must be an eccentric genius, but  the fat POS who farts in public, smells like a musty basement  and says he doens't care what he looks like? yea, we keep him locked in the back room.


Yep,  one company sent a guy out to do hardware repair.  He ate the person's lunch while he worked and fixed the grammar in a memo they were working on.

I was sent to another site where the client tech was a half foot taller and had about 50 lbs on me.  We both had beards and long hair.  His coworkers kept walking up to us and giggling, "I shall call him 'mini me'"

Another place had a programmer that was so abrasive, he wasn't allowed to talk to customers on the phone when he worked on their projects.  They would have a person from another department field the calls and answer the emails.

The client IT never met me before hand, so as we walked to the machines, I would quick tell a few stories of hilariously bad networks I had encountered and the bizarre tricks I used to get the work done.  Usually, the tech would then introduce me to the staff, "This is Felix, he knows what hes's doing."

I used to work on modem problems and the client would never believe when I told them the issue was their premises wiring.  I noticed that when I carried tools, they would believe me.  One day, I walked in with my tool bag, a box of cable and my lineman's test set.  I set them down without looking at anything, told them what the problem was.  They believed me and I hadn't even checked anything.  I had been there 5 months earlier without tools, ran tests and they didn't believe me.
 
2014-04-22 03:52:34 PM  
lilplatinum:
There are still substantially more greyhairs who wear sportcoats/suits in business class than in cattle class, and they most certainly have been known to give denigrading looks to those they think don't belong there.

H
aven't seen that.  Seems like Asian guys wear suits, but American guys are like me: sweaty fat guys in untucked shirts.  But I mostly fly to Asia and tropical areas and suits don't suit us large folks in hot areas.  Haven't ever noticed dirty looks.  I'm 6-6, 300 lbs and I'm not sure the Asian guys regard me as being of the same species.  Plus we all understand that we're likely there because of random upgrade or miles because we're some sap who has to fly that route a lot.  Actually, I can't say that I've ever noticed looks of any kind.  I'm just trying to get through it, not noticing what others think of me.
 .
 
2014-04-22 03:53:10 PM  

ciberido: cptjeff: I like vigorous debate, and I'm not much of one to let idiocy slide by unchallenged. I respond forcefully to bullshiat and talk nicely to those who know what they're talking about. And despite often stating things forcefully, I don't get emotionally invested- your opinion is just not anywhere close to important enough for me to care.

You can keep saying that if it makes you feel better.  I think it's pretty clear to the rest of us how emotionally invested you are.  Once again, you're free to act as you like and say what you like, but it might be in your best interest to ask yourself why you're so angry with so many different people.



I have cptjeff farkied as captain stinky, because in one clothes thread, he bragged that he had wool suits, which he repeatedly described as his "nice shiat" which he imagined were "naturally antimicrobial" so he had NEVER WASHED them. Or dry cleaned them. Ever. Just imagine the BO.

So maybe the reason he is so angry is because he stinks to high heaven. Or maybe he is in one of those lines of work that require you to be a jerk, like debt collector.
 
2014-04-22 03:55:01 PM  

WanPhat: lilplatinum:
 but American guys...


btw, Australians make us look formal.  And I saw a Russian girl get off a flight in Dubai wearing a bikini.
 .
 
2014-04-22 03:58:53 PM  

WanPhat: Haven't seen that.  Seems like Asian guys wear suits, but American guys are like me: sweaty fat guys in untucked shirts.  But I mostly fly to Asia and tropical areas and suits don't suit us large folks in hot areas.  Haven't ever noticed dirty looks.  I'm 6-6, 300 lbs and I'm not sure the Asian guys regard me as being of the same species.  Plus we all understand that we're likely there because of random upgrade or miles because we're some sap who has to fly that route a lot.  Actually, I can't say that I've ever noticed looks of any kind.  I'm just trying to get through it, not noticing what others think of me.


Obviously not paying attention to others, as I'm sure a 6-6 300 lb guy gets dirty looks by literally everyone he sits next to in an airplane ;)
 
2014-04-22 03:59:44 PM  
This is easy. Just attend a Baptist church and show up naked. Problem solved. Ask me how I know.
 
2014-04-22 04:24:49 PM  

WeenerGord: ciberido: cptjeff: I like vigorous debate, and I'm not much of one to let idiocy slide by unchallenged. I respond forcefully to bullshiat and talk nicely to those who know what they're talking about. And despite often stating things forcefully, I don't get emotionally invested- your opinion is just not anywhere close to important enough for me to care.

You can keep saying that if it makes you feel better.  I think it's pretty clear to the rest of us how emotionally invested you are.  Once again, you're free to act as you like and say what you like, but it might be in your best interest to ask yourself why you're so angry with so many different people.


I have cptjeff farkied as captain stinky, because in one clothes thread, he bragged that he had wool suits, which he repeatedly described as his "nice shiat" which he imagined were "naturally antimicrobial" so he had NEVER WASHED them. Or dry cleaned them. Ever. Just imagine the BO.


And I have you farkied as "Not too bright". BTW, Lanolin, an oil found naturally in wool, is indeed antimicrobial. Which is part of the reason it's so popular for use in cosmetics. Frequent cleaning is entirely unnecessary for wool clothing, especially when you're wearing layers between the wool and the sweaty parts of your body that do get washed. And if you give it adequate time to air out between wearings, you can go a very long time without cleaning a suit. Which is part of the attraction, but if you've never worn anything but cotton and polyester that have to be cleaned often, I can see how it might seem strange to you. But you should probably stop being so proud of your ignorance.
 
2014-04-22 04:47:29 PM  
cptjeff: And if you give it adequate time to air out between wearings, you can go a very long time without cleaning a suit.


You said something moronic in the other thread. I called you out. Get over it, Stinky
 
Oak
2014-04-22 04:52:41 PM  
"...Of course people accuse us sometimes of not practicing what we preach, but you must remember that, if you're trying to propagate a creed of poverty, gentleness and tolerance, you need a very rich, powerful, authoritarian organization to do it...."
 
2014-04-22 04:56:39 PM  

lilplatinum: I wasn't criticizing suits in general, I own about 10 and a tux and wear them fairly regularly (although I think the fact that others do not is neither disrespectful nor a sign of their degenerating managerial skills). I was referring to "all your suits are some shade of navy blue or dark gray (a really wild suit was one with a chalk stripe instead of a pin stripe) all your shirts are white, all your socks are black, your power ties go with about any dark color of suit you own, and your greatest deliberation is which pair of black wing-tips to wear today " - that whole 80s power suit abomination thing needs to die and be wiped from human nature.


The power suit is not a power suit if everybody wears it.  And "back in the day" everyone did wear them.  It was the uniform.  Come to think of it, after the 70s and the leisure suit, power suits were a decided improvement.

csb:  After the relaxation of dress codes, most of my clients had very few suits or ties in evidence anywhere in the office.  And so I usually followed the standards of whichever client I was at.  Then one day I had to drop off some documents to the CFO of one of my clients on the way to another.  My ultimate destination usually wore suits and so I had one on.  When I dropped off the documents, I noticed that the CFO (who had been a royal PITA on this project) was as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.  I thought maybe he had heard from a divorce lawyer or something so I just blew it off.  On my next visit, the Controller told me that the CFO was, for some reason, completely intimidated  by anyone wearing a suit and that he was very nervous when I stopped by wearing one.  So guess what I wore every time I had to meet with the little SOB.  He couldn't have been more obsequious.  It got to be a joke with the receptionist.  "Oh, hi, Mr. Right.  I see you're wearing a suit.  I'll tell CFO you're here."
 end csb.
 
2014-04-22 04:57:36 PM  

cptjeff: And if you give it adequate time to air out between wearings, you can go a very long time without cleaning a suit


You should certainly not go "a very long time" without pressing your pants, however.   And if you are already doing that you might as well get them cleaned on occasion.
 
2014-04-22 05:00:53 PM  

WeenerGord: cptjeff: And if you give it adequate time to air out between wearings, you can go a very long time without cleaning a suit.


You said something moronic in the other thread. I called you out. Get over it, Stinky


Ooh, look at how clever you are! The trouble for you is that I happen to actually be right. You know, with facts and stuff. Here's the for dummies citation.

Maybe I'm old fashioned for thinking that facts matter, but so it goes.
 
2014-04-22 06:35:38 PM  
i.imgur.com

Tim Tebow & Jesus Christ, high-fiving while standing on the noses of Orcas, frown upon these shenanigans...
 
2014-04-22 08:09:38 PM  

cptjeff: Ooh, look at how clever you are!



Tsk tsk. You sound emotionally invested.

/And butthurt.
//And stinky.

You are right about one thing though. I am clever. :D
 
2014-04-22 10:50:29 PM  

lilplatinum: brimed03: It's not and, except for the bit about productivity, I agree. Don't show up to your brother's wedding in pajamas. Don't show up to grandpa's funeral in shorts and a Juggaloes tee. Don't show up to the classy gentleman's club in a collar-less shirt.

Seriously, dressing better for the nudie bar than for church? Yes: unlike the nudie bar, the church will (or should) warmly welcome you *whatever* you wear. That doesn't mean you take advantage of that by wearing crap if you've got better. God doesn't care, but show some respect for where you are and the people you're with.

People should certainly understand where they are and dress applicably, you should not show up to formal events like a funeral or a wedding outside of how that event expects people to dress.  That would be disrespectful to the *people* hosting the event.

I suppose churches should set this expectation before a question of "disrespect" can be ascertained - if it is a formal church that expects it, than I assume that could be taken as "disrspectful" towards those who run the church (although, If I were still a follower of mesopotamian mythology I would probably think it is more disrespectful to waste money that could be going to helping the poor and dry cleaning my suit so that I can show off to my peers in a meaningless display of peacocking).

The idiots who decry the fact that people no longer dress up to get on planes, or that employees who don't see customers should somehow have to wear suits like I do are just old people angry that the world has changed, just like I am sure their grandparents decried thing x they did that was 'disrespectful' to their lemming like servitude towards tradition.


See, you hit the nail on the head, but the wrong way.  Churches shouldn't need to clarify that they are "formal"; wearing one's Sunday best has been the expectation, so if anything they would need to clarify that they are "casual."  Which very, very few have done; perhaps one or two protestant denominations, but frankly that always struck me as a barely more subtle version of this sort of thing:

upload.wikimedia.org


Do you need fancy clothes to go to mass?  Nope.  If all you own are torn cargo shorts and broken sandals, come on in and welcome; no need to sit in the back either.  Or at least, that's how it should be, and I recognize there are some Church Ladies and even priests who violate this.  But mainly, the complaint is with the folks who pile out of their late-model, air-conditioned, built-in GPS, headrest-mounted video screened SUVs wearing what they might wear to the mall.  When did the status of attending mass at church fall to the level of going to the mall?  How do so many people not see this as a problem?  It's distressing because most of the time it's an indication of a form of casualness that has no place in worship.  And that's an old-fashioned word, I know, and I risk prejudicing my argument by using it.  But community events are supposed to be not-common; they're supposed to be special.  You dress up for the town dance, for graduation ceremonies.  And community worship is supposed to be even more special.  There's a reason they call churches "God's house."  The community is gathering for a meal and conversation with each other and with God.  I think that calls for dressing at least on par with a high school graduation, don't you?

Oh.  The dry-cleaning-vs-charitable-giving thing?  So don't dry clean your suit.  Generations of people have (and still do) maintain immaculate "Sunday" wardrobes without spending more than a couple of cents on home-based cleaning and ironing.  It is possible to dress respectfully and still give to the collection plate.
 
2014-04-22 10:53:38 PM  

WeenerGord: brimed03: Seriously, dressing better for the nudie bar than for church? Yes: unlike the nudie bar, the church will (or should) warmly welcome you *whatever* you wear. That doesn't mean you take advantage of that by wearing crap if you've got better. God doesn't care, but show some respect for where you are and the people you're with.


Apparently, there are some churches where you can wear actual crap, and urine too, running down your leg, and the well dressed rich will love on you for it congratulate each other for tolerating you. Go figure.


FTFY
 
2014-04-22 11:00:03 PM  
ciberido:  Personally I'm of the school of thought that a Christian's prime directive is to convince non-Christians they should give Christianity a try.  Everything else, even praising God, giving thanks unto Him, etc. is subordinate to that.  I can praise God all the live-long day once I'm in Heaven.  But I won't be meeting many non-Christians up there, will I?  So I'd better focus on the non-Christians while I can --- while I'm on Earth.

To be honest, I don't give what I wear to church that much thought, but if I do think the matter over, the question in my mind is, "What will give the best possible impression to any non-Christians visiting the church today?" not "What will look the most pious?" or "What will get the approval of my fellow Christians?"


It's not my school of thought, but I can understand the looking-good-for-conversions thing as "look, what we do here matters and is an occasion for respect-- for God, for each other, and for you."  That aligns with what I've said about how dressing for church (any church) matters because it's an important community occasion and a cause for showing respect.
 
2014-04-22 11:23:45 PM  

ciberido: brimed03: And then everybody loses their minds when the Catholics "refuse to get with the 21st century" over issues with actual faith implications like reproductive technology.

I realize you aren't speaking of me specifically, and I hesitate to say anything to you that is defensive or argumentative, since you've been very polite and rational, two characteristics rather uncommon in Fark threads.  Yet I'd like to address that point all the same, and I'm sorry to say it will be argumentative.  Bear in mind I am a Christian but not a Catholic; if that makes my argument any more or less valid in your mind, so be it.

None of these issues are new.  Birth control predates Jesus.  Abortion predates Jesus.  Gay marriage predates the Bible (even if it didn't, would you argue the Bible forbids something that didn't exist yet?)  Female priests predate Christianity, and the Catholic Church in particular ordained female bishops and deaconesses for hundreds of years before that changed in the 12th century.   As  Ecclesiastes 1:9 says, there is nothing new under the sun.  So, I'm sorry, but "the Church changes glacially on many things" isn't really an excuse.  You have had since before you even existed to "get with the times" --- and the farking BC times at that.

If you truly believe that the Catholic Church's positions reflect the Will of God, then by all means, stick to your guns and more power to you.  We can agree to disagree and go our separate ways.  But please do not try to make excuses about history and tradition and slow change.  None of that applies to topics that predate the birth of Christ.


Not to worry, you're actually on my Favorites list, largely because you contribute meaningful, thoughtful discussion.  My temper only flares up when someone is dismissively disrespectful.  And now I can hear a bunch of Fark trolls writing that little note down.

You raise a great point, and "there is nothing new under the Sun" is one of my favorite human observations.  Yes, it's true: all these issues and more pre-date Catholicism.  And yet, positions have to be "staked out," as it were, and in time these positions become established dogma.  Your misunderstanding of my post is that I am not talking about the correctness of dogma, but the difficulty in changing it.  If Christians of any denomination schism over petty things like the choice of music, how difficult must it be to enact changes that will move a church forward without leaving anyone behind?  Frankly, it's impossible, and the Catholic church lost many followers after Vatican II.  They also picked up even more new (including returning) parishioners, and that sort of trade-off is probably happening again right now under Francis.  But the Church won't see that as a good thing.

The Church can't see a "net gain" as a good thing because the Church sees it self as responsible for all souls.  So a soul "left behind" by change is a soul lost, and that is a grievous thing.  You can counter that a soul not-gained because of unwillingness to change is equally grievous, and a lot of Churchmen have made exactly that argument for centuries.  Either way, it's a really difficult road to walk.

Of course, the Church also has a much vaster vision than any of us are used to.  We think, at most, in terms of decades.  The Church has existed for two millenia, and thinks in terms of centuries.  It has to, because the social norms and demands of today are vastly different from what they were two centuries ago, and will be be equally different two centuries from now.  A church that modifies its dogma to fit "current" ideas is, in the long view, a wildly unstable and uncommitted church.  It looks more like a politician than the messenger of God.

Since you showed me yours, I should probably show you mine: I never said I was Catholic.  :)  Really, go back and check.  But in truth, I was raised Catholic and had a lot of really interesting education from non-dogmatic priest and lay teachers at various points.  What am I now?  Not sure.  Hit a crisis of faith and got stuck there a long time ago.  I'm definitely not atheist, and am equally not dogmatic Catholic (I was never that).  You'd probably be surprised at how many issues you raised above that we'd agree on.  But I have perhaps a little more patience for the dilemma of change that the Catholic Church faces.  It's really not as easy as it seems, when every soul matters-- and human frailty makes it so easy to lose the ones you've got.
 
2014-04-23 11:47:12 AM  
Many, many thoughts on this thread.

Someone compared going to a country club vs. going to church.  Generally getting into a country club the person wants to be there.  Generally with church the church wants you there.  That being said as a former church goer I am surprised (but not appalled) that people often wear shorts and flip flops to church.

Any priest (or anyone else) telling a man to cut their hair should just be told you're trying to look like Jesus.

Society evolves and along with it how people dress also does.  Look at any old newsreels of the Babe Ruth era Yankees.  Everyone at the ball park is in a suit or a dress.  Welfare/bread lines?  People in suits.  Society has evolved.

On the few occasions I have been to church in the last few decades I have noticed how much it reminds me of a nazi rally.  Statement/response.  Statement/response.  There is no thought behind it, it is a learned response.

Lastly the church (Catholic) really made church much worse with the updates to how they are done a few years ago.  The verbiage was changed to be much harsher and much more "the church is infallible".  If I wasn't already anti-organized religion, this would have pushed me further that direction.

//I missed church a total of one week until I left home for college.  Since then I have never went more than once or twice a year (barring weddings and funerals).

//Don't think I'm smart enough to know about a higher power, but also believe that no one else is either.  I don't think any religion has it right, and many have it very wrong.
 
2014-04-23 12:04:31 PM  

brimed03: See, you hit the nail on the head, but the wrong way.  Churches shouldn't need to clarify that they are "formal"; wearing one's Sunday best has been the expectation, so if anything they would need to clarify that they are "casual."


Churches are just clubs, if the majority of that club thinks dressing in way x is appropriate, and the leadership of said club thinks it is inappropriate, it is the obligation of club leadership to clarify the dress code.  Otherwise the dress code will be defined by the views of the club membership.

Something tells me most clubs value their membership dues they collect once a week more than their dress codes, which is why they don't press it... shielding child molestors ain't cheap.
 
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