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(Colorado Springs Gazette)   Having picked on enough grandmothers and little kids, the music industry is now suing bars for $21,000 for letting drunk soldiers sing Toby Keith songs   (gazette.com) divider line 60
    More: Asinine, Colorado Springs, ASCAP, songs, industry, children, performing rights, field agents, dessert bars  
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2936 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 21 Apr 2014 at 5:45 PM (14 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-21 05:43:00 PM
If by "now," you mean "has always been," sure.

And it's not the "music industry," at least in the sense that it's the same people that were suing over file-sharing. That was generally the record labels and owners of the particular performance copyrights. This is about the publishers who hold the composition copyright. They've always been pretty vigilant about sending in undercover people to open mic nights, cover band shows, and karaoke nights, making lists of the songs performed, and then sending the bar owner a bill and a letter suggesting (threatening?) they get a ASCAP/BMI license to avoid future litigation.
 
2014-04-21 05:57:36 PM
Not that I speak for the man, but I have a feeling that Toby Kieth would be appalled that the music industry did this in his good name.

/you may not like him
//but the man does a lot of work in support of the troops
 
2014-04-21 06:02:38 PM

Uzzah: If by "now," you mean "has always been," sure.

And it's not the "music industry," at least in the sense that it's the same people that were suing over file-sharing. That was generally the record labels and owners of the particular performance copyrights. This is about the publishers who hold the composition copyright. They've always been pretty vigilant about sending in undercover people to open mic nights, cover band shows, and karaoke nights, making lists of the songs performed, and then sending the bar owner a bill and a letter suggesting (threatening?) they get a ASCAP/BMI license to avoid future litigation.


Why don't bar owners just post signs saying members of the music industry are banned from their establishments.  Then have them arrested for trespassing, hell wouldn't said threatening letter be evidence of the crime.
 
2014-04-21 06:06:36 PM
Answer a survey question to continue reading this content?

How about no.
 
2014-04-21 06:12:50 PM

basemetal: Not that I speak for the man, but I have a feeling that Toby Kieth would be appalled that the music industry did this in his good name.

/you may not like him
//but the man does a lot of work in support of the troops


He belongs to ASCAP, he knows how it works and cashes their checks every month.
 
2014-04-21 06:13:24 PM
Don't we do this bullshiat every six months?
 
2014-04-21 06:13:54 PM

Uzzah: If by "now," you mean "has always been," sure.

And it's not the "music industry," at least in the sense that it's the same people that were suing over file-sharing. That was generally the record labels and owners of the particular performance copyrights. This is about the publishers who hold the composition copyright. They've always been pretty vigilant about sending in undercover people to open mic nights, cover band shows, and karaoke nights, making lists of the songs performed, and then sending the bar owner a bill and a letter suggesting (threatening?) they get a ASCAP/BMI license to avoid future litigation.


This. You gotta have a liquor license to serve booze too.
 
2014-04-21 06:17:36 PM
Just get an ASCAP/BMI license.  They're not expensive.

As much as I think the music industry has their heads up their butts... the whole ASCAP/BMI thing is actually a great service.  Instead of worrying about infringing on the rights of every publisher of every song on your jukebox... you pay one fee and you're in the clear.
 
2014-04-21 06:17:51 PM

Whatthefark: Answer a survey question to continue reading this content?

How about no.


Yep
 
2014-04-21 06:24:59 PM
I think we're missing the real issue here: people are singing Toby Keith songs.
 
2014-04-21 06:25:39 PM

basemetal: Not that I speak for the man, but I have a feeling that Toby Kieth would be appalled that the music industry did this in his good name.

/you may not like him
//but the man does a lot of work in support of the troops


They didn't fine the troops, you moron. Anybody who has ever come within a sniff of operating a bar knows about music licensing. It covers the jukebox, the radio, the cover bands, and any other performances that take place. Running a bar without a music license has been akin to running with scissors for decades.
 
2014-04-21 06:27:17 PM

Whatthefark: Answer a survey question to continue reading this content?

How about no.


THIS
no survey, no 30 second auto play commercial, no agree to our cookie
thanks but you're article isn't that important or interesting, so, NO !
 
2014-04-21 06:27:57 PM
It's like they don't want anyone to listen to their music.
 
2014-04-21 06:36:54 PM
The specifics of the night in question are not really relevant except to gin up a story. Bar owners in the US are required to pay licensing to run karaoke, jukeboxes, live cover bands etc. This is hardly news.

It COULD be wrong, stupid, whatever but it is not news.
 
2014-04-21 06:40:17 PM

gaspode: The specifics of the night in question are not really relevant except to gin up a story. Bar owners in the US are required to pay licensing to run karaoke, jukeboxes, live cover bands etc. This is hardly news.

It COULD be wrong, stupid, whatever but it is not news.


So Fark, then.
 
2014-04-21 06:40:23 PM
It's not like Toby Keith plays country music anyway
 
2014-04-21 06:42:29 PM

downstairs: Just get an ASCAP/BMI license.  They're not expensive.

As much as I think the music industry has their heads up their butts... the whole ASCAP/BMI thing is actually a great service.  Instead of worrying about infringing on the rights of every publisher of every song on your jukebox... you pay one fee and you're in the clear.


THIS. Bars operate at about a huge markup already on cover charges and booze, barely any of which goes to employees, which rely on tips. the ASCAP bill should be as instinctive a monthly expense as the cable bill to run sports and pay-per views.

Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more, I'm not going to sympathize with them trying to get out of what has become a standard expense for any place with a jukebox.
 
2014-04-21 06:51:25 PM

downstairs: Just get an ASCAP/BMI license.  They're not expensive.

As much as I think the music industry has their heads up their butts... the whole ASCAP/BMI thing is actually a great service.  Instead of worrying about infringing on the rights of every publisher of every song on your jukebox... you pay one fee and you're in the clear.


I sort of agree. But the article mentions you actually have to pay 3 orgs, not just one fee. And, I suppose there isn't anything stopping me from forming a 4th group, assuming I could get at least one good song in my catalog.
 
2014-04-21 06:54:23 PM

stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more


A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.
 
2014-04-21 07:04:04 PM

downstairs: Just get an ASCAP/BMI license. They're not expensive.As much as I think the music industry has their heads up their butts... the whole ASCAP/BMI thing is actually a great service. Instead of worrying about infringing on the rights of every publisher of every song on your jukebox... you pay one fee and you're in the clear.


Another thing I see is a lot of bands selling CDs of themselves performing covers with no license fees paid.  We looked into it 10yrs ago....seems as if I recall it was something like $15 a song for 1000 CDs.  Very reasonable, and much better than getting caught by ASCAP/BMI.
 
2014-04-21 07:05:57 PM
As long as they don't rebroadcast or reproduce the pictures and accounts of baseball games without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.
 
2014-04-21 07:21:00 PM

spottymax: As long as they don't rebroadcast or reproduce the pictures and accounts of baseball games without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.


Only implied oral consent.
 
2014-04-21 07:24:13 PM

downstairs: Just get an ASCAP/BMI license.  They're not expensive.

As much as I think the music industry has their heads up their butts... the whole ASCAP/BMI thing is actually a great service.  Instead of worrying about infringing on the rights of every publisher of every song on your jukebox... you pay one fee and you're in the clear.


A big THIS. Seriously.
 
2014-04-21 07:29:38 PM

Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.


$4/beer....wtf? That's a steal around these parts.

Assume weekend is from happy hour Friday til 2 then Saturday and Sunday noon to 2 you get 40 hours. That averages out to 64/hr. Not impossible. your not even thinking about shots, mixed or food. Or hell even jukebox, pool, darts, pull tabs, cigs....have you never been to a bar?
 
2014-04-21 07:30:17 PM
This is the last desperate gasp of an industry that will pass into irrelevance in the next decade. No longer do musicians need the backing of a major label to distribute their music, over-the-air radio play is irrelevant and dying, and production costs are so reasonable that most bands can cover it with a day job at McDonald's. The days of needing a major label to get you into music stores and onto the radio are gone, it's all direct-to-consumer now.

They've held on to this outdated business model long after the writing was on the wall and translated into 60 different languages, yet decided that suing to stay relevant and eliminate progress was the right choice. Each of these labels (or all of them, under RIAA or ASCAP) could have formed iTunes before iTunes existed, cornered the market, and continued to control it that way. Instead, they insisted that people would continue to buy plastic discs of some kind or another in record stores and that artists would not embrace the new technology to reach their fans directly.

The party is over. This shiat is just cleaning up the mess before the lights go off for good.
 
2014-04-21 07:32:17 PM
So farking stupid.
 
2014-04-21 07:36:26 PM

Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.


Every bar is different... some have food, some serve higher-end cocktails.  But indeed $10,000 on a weekend isn't that crazy.  Now- that's not *profit*.  But in terms of what gets stuffed into the registers and tip jars... $10,000 is totally do-able for most bars.

The key is the profit margin.  Most bars run at a razor-thin margin.  $10k in and then $10k out happens quite a bit- which is why its hard to run a bar for a long time.
 
2014-04-21 07:42:51 PM
Automatic tracking and settlement is why most venues use internet connected juke boxes and karaoke systems.
 
2014-04-21 07:43:26 PM

JerkStore: This is the last desperate gasp of an industry that will pass into irrelevance in the next decade. No longer do musicians need the backing of a major label to distribute their music, over-the-air radio play is irrelevant and dying, and production costs are so reasonable that most bands can cover it with a day job at McDonald's. The days of needing a major label to get you into music stores and onto the radio are gone, it's all direct-to-consumer now.


Ok, so your band just cut a killer song. Just how do you propose getting it heard beyond your existing fan base?

You put the video on YouTube. How are you going to get people to click on it?
You put it on an album. How are you going to convince record stores to stock it?
You want to sell it on iTunes. How are you going to get Apple to list it?
You want it on Pandora. How are you going to get them to take it?

By necessity, every vector for getting your song into the hands of new listeners has gatekeepers whose purpose is to separate the songs people will be interested in from the mess of self-produced garbage that every schmoe with Garage Band and a YouTube account puts out. They're music buyers for record stores and concert promoters and radio programmers and music journalists, and if you want your song to get distributed to the masses, even in this modern music world, you have to go through them. Record labels exist because they know who these gatekeepers are and how to influence them. Unless you know that, too, you might get lucky and get a few hundred or a few thousand people to listen to and buy your song, but you're never going to get mass distribution.

If your metric of success is a few hundred or a few thousand listeners, congratulations. The new music economy has done you a favor. If your definition of success is something more than that, meet the new boss [etc.]...
 
2014-04-21 07:53:05 PM

downstairs: Just get an ASCAP/BMI license.  They're not expensive.


According to the article, getting ASCAP, SESAC and BMI licenses costs $4,500 a year. In Colorado Springs, where this story is, that's more than a state liquor license, a county liquor license, a food and beverage license, fire insurance and injury/liability insurance combined.
 
2014-04-21 08:00:39 PM

All Latest: It's like they don't want anyone to listen to their music.


Not even close.

It's like musicians and composers don't want bars to get free entertainment or make money off their backs. If bar owners wanted free music they should pick up an instrument and make their own goddamn racket.
 
2014-04-21 08:05:00 PM

JerkStore: This is the last desperate gasp of an industry that will pass into irrelevance in the next decade. No longer do musicians need the backing of a major label to distribute their music, over-the-air radio play is irrelevant and dying, and production costs are so reasonable that most bands can cover it with a day job at McDonald's. The days of needing a major label to get you into music stores and onto the radio are gone, it's all direct-to-consumer now.

They've held on to this outdated business model long after the writing was on the wall and translated into 60 different languages, yet decided that suing to stay relevant and eliminate progress was the right choice. Each of these labels (or all of them, under RIAA or ASCAP) could have formed iTunes before iTunes existed, cornered the market, and continued to control it that way. Instead, they insisted that people would continue to buy plastic discs of some kind or another in record stores and that artists would not embrace the new technology to reach their fans directly.

The party is over. This shiat is just cleaning up the mess before the lights go off for good.


ASCAP and BMI are two reasons artists can forego labels. No independent artist can pursue royalties like that and frankly, nobody buys music any more so there is no real way to get money outside of performance and publishing rights.

Making sure other businesses aren't making money by using your music is important.
 
2014-04-21 08:11:18 PM

Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.


You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.
 
2014-04-21 08:21:49 PM

dr_blasto: ASCAP and BMI are two reasons artists can forego labels. No independent artist can pursue royalties like that and frankly, nobody buys music any more so there is no real way to get money outside of performance and publishing rights.


Yep. This is totally true. It's why iTunes failed so miserably Google and Amazon modeled their online business segments after it.
 
2014-04-21 09:24:43 PM

kroonermanblack: dr_blasto: ASCAP and BMI are two reasons artists can forego labels. No independent artist can pursue royalties like that and frankly, nobody buys music any more so there is no real way to get money outside of performance and publishing rights.

Yep. This is totally true. It's why iTunes failed so miserably Google and Amazon modeled their online business segments after it.


Funny thing is that you can't just create an iTunes or Amazon user account. You need to go through an intermediary. Those intermediaries have various pricing plans, most of which involve you, the artist, paying them a monthly fee to keep your crap on iTunes or Amazon.

It is a scam, through and through. You'll pay a percentage of sales plus a fixed fee. That $.99 song? Once you include pricing for studio time, engineering, mastering and, sadly still, the replication fee for CD media, art and printing, shipping and you see that a lucky artist will get at least that $.99 back. Most can't.

Artists pay BMI and ASCAP too. Really, today, the money is in licensing if you can get it and live performance. The album is basically an ad for your shows, but that live show is a farking rip off too.

iTunes and Amazon are good to keep people from just straight up sharing everything; they're like a bandage on a sucking chest wound, and they're really cool for a listener as you can buy almost ANYTHING and you can simply buy by the song to check out new stuff. Tons of cash make it to the Apples and Amazons, signed stuff makes a cash feed to the labels. Still, little makes it to the artists. For the established acts, it is great as they can reach even more people with less effort. New acts? Not so much: that's still pay-to-play all over the place, losing proposition if you want to reach people.
 
2014-04-21 09:36:49 PM

stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.


Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.
 
2014-04-21 09:44:56 PM

Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.


Revenue vs profit?
 
2014-04-21 09:55:09 PM

dr_blasto: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

Revenue vs profit?


Winna, winna, chicken dinna.
 
2014-04-21 09:58:22 PM

Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.


I know that bars charge more than four bucks for anything above lower domestics. In fact, anyone that went out this past weekend can tell you that.
 
2014-04-21 10:01:50 PM

dr_blasto: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

Revenue vs profit?



I hit the add comment button too quick but this is how I deal with those music industry turds at our restaurant:

https://www.siriusxm.com/siriusxmforbusiness

All fees paid for and mostly it's just background music piped to the overhead speakers. We've briefly discussed doing live music but not now as I don't need the booking and other hassles plus business is moving along fine without it. Maybe one day...
 
2014-04-21 10:05:38 PM

Enormous-Schwanstucker: dr_blasto: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

Revenue vs profit?

Winna, winna, chicken dinna.


did I say they profited that much? I said they pulled in that much. And an expense that everyone knows to factor in is licensing to keep the jukeboxes and karaoke machines going. I don't have much sympathy for a place that doesn't remember to put aside some dough for a standard expense.
 
2014-04-21 10:11:43 PM

stoli n coke: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

I know that bars charge more than four bucks for anything above lower domestics. In fact, anyone that went out this past weekend can tell you that.


Ok, i'll bite, but just once.

You've grossly confused the price of a beer, any beer with it being pure or some absurd level of profit.

Here's a list off the top of my head that the profit from each one of those beers or any other alcoholic beverage pays for and this excludes the very important fact that the craft beers I buy, by the keg and bottle ARE more expensive than a comparable corporate piss beer product. A lot more expensive.

Insurance (dram and liability)
electricity
gas
water
waste handling
salaries
workers comp
payroll taxes
RENT
CAM
NNN
permits
maintenance
ABC license fees
debt servicing
etc....
 
2014-04-21 10:16:47 PM

stoli n coke: Enormous-Schwanstucker: dr_blasto: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

Revenue vs profit?

Winna, winna, chicken dinna.

did I say they profited that much? I said they pulled in that much. And an expense that everyone knows to factor in is licensing to keep the jukeboxes and karaoke machines going. I don't have much sympathy for a place that doesn't remember to put aside some dough for a standard expense.


Yes, actually you did.


"THIS. Bars operate at about a huge markup already on cover charges and booze, barely any of which goes to employees, which rely on tips."

I'd love to see our bar pull in $10K in one weekend. It's a fantasy.
 
2014-04-21 10:26:48 PM

Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Enormous-Schwanstucker: dr_blasto: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

Revenue vs profit?

Winna, winna, chicken dinna.

did I say they profited that much? I said they pulled in that much. And an expense that everyone knows to factor in is licensing to keep the jukeboxes and karaoke machines going. I don't have much sympathy for a place that doesn't remember to put aside some dough for a standard expense.

Yes, actually you did.


"THIS. Bars operate at about a huge markup already on cover charges and booze, barely any of which goes to employees, which rely on tips."

I'd love to see our bar pull in $10K in one weekend. It's a fantasy.


There's not a huge markup? Jaegermeister really does cost 6 bucks per shot glass? That same Budweiser that's a dollar a beer at the grocery store suddenly quadruples in price on the way to the barstool? Those cigarettes that are 6 bucks at the gas station increase in value 3 bucks a pack at the machine?
 
2014-04-21 10:40:20 PM

stoli n coke: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Enormous-Schwanstucker: dr_blasto: Enormous-Schwanstucker: stoli n coke: Scrotastic Method: stoli n coke: Considering even a smaller venue can pull 10-grand a weekend or more

A small bar pulls in over $10,000 a weekend? That's 2500 beers at $4 a piece. That's not happening.

You realize most bars sell beers that aren't Budweiser and Coors Light, right? They tend to cost more than 4-bucks.

Wanna know how I can tell you don't know anything about the restaurant or bar business?

The previous two posts demonstrate this clearly.

Revenue vs profit?

Winna, winna, chicken dinna.

did I say they profited that much? I said they pulled in that much. And an expense that everyone knows to factor in is licensing to keep the jukeboxes and karaoke machines going. I don't have much sympathy for a place that doesn't remember to put aside some dough for a standard expense.

Yes, actually you did.


"THIS. Bars operate at about a huge markup already on cover charges and booze, barely any of which goes to employees, which rely on tips."

I'd love to see our bar pull in $10K in one weekend. It's a fantasy.

There's not a huge markup? Jaegermeister really does cost 6 bucks per shot glass? That same Budweiser that's a dollar a beer at the grocery store suddenly quadruples in price on the way to the barstool? Those cigarettes that are 6 bucks at the gas station increase in value 3 bucks a pack at the machine?


Your comments once again indicate you have no clue as to what a place has to charge to stay open. Go open a restaurant and let me know how that works.
 
2014-04-21 10:54:00 PM
Mafia racketeering.
 
2014-04-21 11:36:16 PM
They should fine Toby Keith for singing Toby Keith songs.
 
2014-04-22 12:06:10 AM
Singing Toby Keith songs?
Wow! That PTSD is worse than I thought.
 
2014-04-22 12:38:28 AM
As people who have drunkenly mangled Journey songs on karaoke run for cover.
Every one of us who's ever been to a bar has seen that: someone drunker than a poet on payday thinking they sound like Steve Perry, when in reality they sound more like IceJJfish or Charlie Day.
 
2014-04-22 01:47:08 AM
♫This 'country' singer will fight
When you cover his songs
And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The R.I.A.A.
`Cause they`ll put a boot in your ass
It`s the American way♪
 
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