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(Variety)   Didn't like "Man of Steel"? It's not Zack Snyder's fault, it's yours for clinging to Christopher Reeve's Superman   (variety.com) divider line 257
    More: Dumbass, Christopher Reeves, Zack Snyder, Superman, massive damage, Jeremy Irons  
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2293 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 21 Apr 2014 at 8:57 AM (34 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-21 08:55:51 PM  
I like Man of Steel quite a bit, but there are just some holes that yank me out of the suspension of disbelief every time:

The "singularity" they create that sucks the Kryptonian ship into a black hole, along with almost everything else. Debris on the ground is getting pulled UP into it. Yet Lois Lane falls DOWN out of the airplane that crashed into it (i.e. ground-zero of the singularity). WTF?

Zod has the ability to colonize and terraform any planet, so he chooses genocide instead of, say, moving next door to Mars or something. Given that, perhaps Kal El would have been more cooperative with the DNA. Kryptonians, including Zod, were not inherently evil.

Why does the military let Lois Lane tag along EVERYWHERE, including the plane dropping the bomb?

Why does General Zod let Lois Lane tag along EVERYWHERE, including their mother ship?

Why didn't ALL the Kryptonians descend on Metropolis instead of two or three at a time? They would ALL be super powered, no? My hope before I saw the film was that they would explain it by saying that Clark's power comes from the sun, but it's a cumulative thing. He's been there longer and therefore was far more powerful for it. The Kryptonians were powerful, but maybe it was their armor offering them parity with Kal-El. The only way to explain his ability to defeat Zod is that he remains considerably more powerful, which overcomes his total lack of combat skills.


On the other hand, I really liked the flashbacks with Costner, I thought they were the best part of the whole movie and wished there could have been more of that development. Maybe it's because I have adopted sons, but I liked him struggling to find the right way to be a good father to this kid who was obviously not of this earth and how to raise him right so that he wouldn't become the worst thing that ever happened to humanity. I didn't like how he died (Clark could easily have saved him without anyone seeing anything), but it was probably a necessary plot device.

It's a push on the destruction porn. I expected it to be overkill and to go against reason, but Superman did occasionally save people during the fight. And I have to say that I really liked the fight scene in Smallville where they're fighting in a huge hail of bullets without even noticing.
 
2014-04-21 09:04:25 PM  

Rwa2play: Fano: Rwa2play: RyansPrivates: scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"

Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...

Those two features showed me that DCA "get it" and whoever's in charge of DCE doesn't get one fark of the characters.

"the Elite" is fantastic at showing us why asking superman to be dark and edgy is like telling Frank Miller that All star Batman and Robin is fundamentally what we want.

"Is that Superman?" "Not anymore."

I had heard about "What's so funny about..." but that story was amazing to see as an animated feature.  All-Star Superman as well; two stories that showed us that Superman can be a badass hero.

That and his beatdown of Darkseid at the end of JLU.


Superman can issue some fine rebukes: Allstar: "You could have saved the world anytime, Luthor, if it had really mattered to you." I find that one to be the Yang to Red Son Luthor's ultimate FU to Authoritarian Superman's Yin.
 
2014-04-21 09:45:06 PM  
Don't get mad at everyone who noticed you made a Batman movie staring Superman
 
2014-04-21 10:24:28 PM  
mooseyfate: I really enjoyed Man of Steel.  That being said, I have a few problems with it:

#1 - How was Jor-El even close to a match for Zod at the beginning of the movie.  Yes, I know Zod killed Jor-El, but it shouldn't have even been a fight!  If your entire race is based on genetically engineering you
r future generations to serve a single focus, how in the hell would a person bred and raised to be a scientist stand 5 seconds in a fight with a person bred and raised to be a soldier.  Now the defense could be made that Zod was raised to be a General, and to lead men is not the same as besting them all in hand-to-hand combat.  But even if that were true, Zod would still have a million times more experience and capabilities in combat than the scientist that was Jor-El.  This is like watching Boris from Goldeneye man-handle Jason Bourne.  It just shouldn't happen.  That fight should have lasted two seconds before they killed Jor-El.  Even barring that, however, how does a freaking General KNOW that there was an ignition code sent out from Jor-El's home, but not have a few aircraft on stand-by to immediately scuttle anything that tried to take off from that house?

#1 Didn't Jor-El mention they served together? The way I understood it, their society is kind of an all-serve, then you do your own thing (unless you are destined for the military, in which case you'd stay in the military).

#2 Stupidity of the writers. Although I'd imagine they'd hire people from the area whom you wouldn't expect to know about a secret military  operation.

#3 Stupid Lois needs to be involved so that Superman can save her or vice-versa.
 
2014-04-21 10:46:40 PM  
Zack Snyder lost himself up inside his own asshole with Sucker Punch. Never been more embarrassed for a writer/director in my life.
 
2014-04-21 11:04:15 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.


This. I was just talking the other day about why Westerns went out of fashion, and the same things that drove them out make Superman no longer a fashionable character. Nowadays we like heroes who are dealing with their own problems, maybe in addition to helping others but they still have issues or flaws of their own. In the past this wasn't so.
Then, with Westerns, people tried for a while to make them gritty and filled with flawed characters but it really doesn't work, because that's not what Westerns were supposed to be about and doing this just disappoints the Western fans. Same thing happens when you try to make a gritty Superman; that's just no what he's about.

There is a genre of film known as the Visiting Angel story, in which a character who is virtually perfect can be the "star" while another character (or characters) they help are really the ones the story is about (A lot of Disney films with "perfect" main characters do this, like Mary Poppins, Belle from Beauty and the Beast, etc.) I'm surprised no one has attempted that with Superman, since that's really all you can do with him and what he was made to do.

Also, in that article, the director says something about how in all these action movies he makes that flop, he's trying to show how violence "isn't fun or funny." Um, that's the point of an action movie isn't it? If you want something popular, it's supposed to be entertaining. If your goal is merely to make some kind of statement about the real life miseries of war and death, shoot for low budget arthouse style.
 
2014-04-21 11:14:28 PM  

Sobekneferu: Dwight_Yeast: The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.

This. I was just talking the other day about why Westerns went out of fashion, and the same things that drove them out make Superman no longer a fashionable character. Nowadays we like heroes who are dealing with their own problems, maybe in addition to helping others but they still have issues or flaws of their own. In the past this wasn't so.
Then, with Westerns, people tried for a while to make them gritty and filled with flawed characters but it really doesn't work, because that's not what Westerns were supposed to be about and doing this just disappoints the Western fans.


Yes, Unforgiven is a terrible western hated by western fans...
 
2014-04-21 11:44:18 PM  

Loan Starr: Mugato: Mad_Radhu: (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back)

And in S2 he goes back after getting back his powers and kicks that trucker's ass. That never sat right with me.

That never sat right with me either.  When I was a kid it was funny and I guess it was added for laughs but it makes Superman look like a puss.  He cries when he gets his butt kicked and only returns when he's invincible.  I love Superman I-III, though.  I saw the original in the theater when I was 7.  Oddly enough to this day it's the only movie I ever saw in the theater that had an intermission.  WTF?



You're both wrong. That scene was and still is funny. The guy was a douche and had it coming. Besides, Supes didn't do anything to him except let him be a douche a second time. Then he just slid him into the pinball machine. Justice served.
 
2014-04-21 11:45:58 PM  
Trocadero:

Yes, Unforgiven is a terrible western hated by western fans...

I assume you're being sarcastic, but must admit I don't know much about the movie in question. I've heard of it, that's all I can say.
 
2014-04-21 11:52:56 PM  

Sobekneferu: Trocadero:

Yes, Unforgiven is a terrible western hated by western fans...

I assume you're being sarcastic, but must admit I don't know much about the movie in question. I've heard of it, that's all I can say.


I haven't seen every western ever made but I'd say it's the best I've ever seen. No one in the film is good or evil, except the guys at the beginning who started the story. Which is probably how it really was. Although my favorite western is Silverado along with Tombstone.
 
2014-04-22 12:10:23 AM  
"gritty" westerns dont work because, wtf??

tell that to Sergio Leone , Samuel Peckinpa...or Clint Eastwood. (not just for "Unforgiven" but Josey Wales and Pale Rider) and HBOs Deadwood would have been sooo much more successful had it been all Hayes code polyanna...riiight.
 
2014-04-22 12:48:06 AM  
I know I'm late to the party, but I'll never understand why people are so outraged that one superhero allowed part of a city to get destroyed, and so forgiving that a team of superheroes allowed part of another city to get destroyed.
 
2014-04-22 01:27:33 AM  

CTZanderman: I know I'm late to the party, but I'll never understand why people are so outraged that one superhero allowed part of a city to get destroyed, and so forgiving that a team of superheroes allowed part of another city to get destroyed.


Because one was a war and the other was a fistfight, basically. And they showed Cap at least trying to protect people during all that. Hulk did the most damage by punching out that big dragon thing. But that's the Hulk. That's what he does.
 
2014-04-22 01:34:38 AM  
 
2014-04-22 01:42:44 AM  
I would consider the terraforming attempt by Zod's lil' army, which was the cause of a considerable amount of damage to the city, to be fairly war-like and not so much a fistfight.  But we can ignore the massive amount of damage that had already been done before the fistfight if we want to keep up the hate.
 
2014-04-22 01:58:07 AM  

CTZanderman: I would consider the terraforming attempt by Zod's lil' army, which was the cause of a considerable amount of damage to the city, to be fairly war-like and not so much a fistfight.  But we can ignore the massive amount of damage that had already been done before the fistfight if we want to keep up the hate.


I don't think that's the part people had problems with, but if you want to bring that up then it's more than evened out by the Smallville battle where Supes chooses to bring the fight away from a remote location and directly into a populated area.
 
2014-04-22 02:20:48 AM  
Smallville isn't well contained by any means, but at least the people were able to get inside of their stores and lock the doors.  Keep them off the streets, right?   That was more or less the plan laid out by Captain America to save people at the end of the Avengers, so I'm sure it worked!

For as much as people have gone on in this thread about the writers trapping Superman in a bad situation, Joss certainly gave his gang an easy out.  The get invaded by hundreds of trained soldiers who are about as skilled with their rifles as your average storm trooper, easily contained in a certain radius by Iron Man flying around in a circle, and ultimately defeated by a nuke.  Such heroics!
 
2014-04-22 02:43:06 AM  

CTZanderman: Smallville isn't well contained by any means, but at least the people were able to get inside of their stores and lock the doors.  Keep them off the streets, right?   That was more or less the plan laid out by Captain America to save people at the end of the Avengers, so I'm sure it worked!

For as much as people have gone on in this thread about the writers trapping Superman in a bad situation, Joss certainly gave his gang an easy out.  The get invaded by hundreds of trained soldiers who are about as skilled with their rifles as your average storm trooper, easily contained in a certain radius by Iron Man flying around in a circle, and ultimately defeated by a nuke.  Such heroics!


But Captain America didn't put those people in direct danger himself by actively bringing the fight to themand wailing on a guy like something out of a prison yard scene while blowing up silos and gas stations along the way. And you want to talk about heroics?
 
2014-04-22 02:51:25 AM  
CTZanderman:

I feel the need to add here that I love Superman and am not a Marvel fanboy by any stretch. I'm not coming from a position of bias here but as a moviegoer who would like to enjoy silver screen adaptations of all the Superheroes regardless of who publishes them. I've never read a Captain America comic in my life but I can tell you his films and his appearance in the Avengers nailed what I do know of his character a hundred times better than Man of Steel was able to grasp the fundamentals on Superman.
 
2014-04-22 03:10:28 AM  
Considering he was unleashing his powers for the first time and engaged in his first ever fight, I'm willing to say some is to be expected.  I'm willing to bet that you probably weren't completely rational and restrained that first time someone bigger than you started a fight.

Most of the beloved Marvel guys have at some point put people at risk.  Thor creates a damn tornado in a small town to defeat the destroyer.  WHY NOT JUST LEAD HIM AWAY FROM THE BATTLE TO AN OPEN FIELD?  Banner goes all green rage monster vs Abomination and wrecks up parts of New York City with civilians everywhere AND NOT ONCE USHERS THEM INTO THE SUBWAYS!  Iron Man punches the heck our of Iron Monger on a busy highway LIKE THEY'RE PLAYING BAD BOYS 3.  And those guys aren't even fighting for the first time.

I mean, Thor literally had to sacrifice himself to prove he was worthy of his hammer, and then he immediately uses it to endanger everyone.  But Superman is is the worst dude ever.
 
2014-04-22 03:14:44 AM  
All those bad guys were already in the populated areas when the fights broke out. It's not a matter of asking the good guys to take them out of it, it's asking them not to deliberately bring them in.
 
2014-04-22 03:17:23 AM  
Fafai:

Point taken.  Similarly-ish, I've found enjoyment in most of the comic book movies.  MoS needed a second viewing before I got into it, and I get some of the issues people have, but I find most of these conversations put a lot of hate on it for things that are apparent throughout the genre but often get ignored because everyone has a chubby for Marvel.  It's popular to hate on Nolan and love on Joss, but there's room for both.  I'll take the occasional flawed Superman to see a world in actual danger and then enjoy a nice Sunday drive with an Avenger's member, and all will be well!
 
2014-04-22 03:21:18 AM  

Fafai: All those bad guys were already in the populated areas when the fights broke out. It's not a matter of asking the good guys to take them out of it, it's asking them not to deliberately bring them in.


See, that's the thing though.  I don't think he was saying to himself "You know what would be great?  If we went for a romp around Smallville.  I need to pick up some things at True Value, we could have lunch at the Waffle House, and then for shiats and giggles I'll kick you through a gas pump."  I'm fairly certain it was more like "GET THE HELL AWAY FRO MMY MOM" and then it ended up there after a couple of good punches.  Again, it's the first time he's actually hitting someone and he may not have known what the exact result was going to be.
 
2014-04-22 03:38:49 AM  

CTZanderman: Fafai: All those bad guys were already in the populated areas when the fights broke out. It's not a matter of asking the good guys to take them out of it, it's asking them not to deliberately bring them in.

See, that's the thing though.  I don't think he was saying to himself "You know what would be great?  If we went for a romp around Smallville.  I need to pick up some things at True Value, we could have lunch at the Waffle House, and then for shiats and giggles I'll kick you through a gas pump."  I'm fairly certain it was more like "GET THE HELL AWAY FRO MMY MOM" and then it ended up there after a couple of good punches.  Again, it's the first time he's actually hitting someone and he may not have known what the exact result was going to be.


I don't really buy that, especially since he has Zod all disoriented on the ground and instead of coming to his senses and taking him out of there, he lectures him on how to control his powers. They've shown him save people (the bus, the oil rig*) so he values human life and has come to appreciate how fragile people are compared to himself. I chalk it up to Snyder's penchant for style over substance.

*that's another thing that bothered me. All the "saving people" stuff was done out of costume and dealt with early on to make room for all the cool explodey kapow stuff. I think he saved one guy in costume. The scene at the end would have held a lot more weight if they showed Superman being worn down gradually, saving who he can but not able to save everyone, and finally deciding enough is enough. But it was too abrubpt. It literally went from "kill millions of off screen people? No problem" to "no don't kill that one family!" right when the plot needed it.

I remember being stoked for this movie. The trailer where they showed him hugging his mom on the farm in costume, I was all over that. I love Donner's Superman but I never understood why he had to abandon his mom like that. Seemed like a dick move considering he can travel anywhere in the world quickly and for free. Had I known that hug was basically "hey ma glad to see youre still alive after I stranded your ass with two evil kryptonians so I could go destroy Smallville" I wouldn't have paid.

Marvel movies have their flaws but none of those flaws end up completely going against the characters. All those characters are portrayed loyally. If you changed the names and costumes of the characters in MoS and it was an original character, I would have come out of it thinking "man they really ripped off superman's origin and powers" but not his character. That's the most important thing
 
2014-04-22 03:58:02 AM  
I would argue that in costume he did save almost an entire planet's worth of people, but he doesn't catch them all one by one and settle them down safely.  And in all fairness, the number of times the Marvel heroes rescue people who aren't their love interests or their partner is pretty low.

He could have a moment to get Zod out of Smallville during his sensory overload, but Zod's crew were right behind him and there's no guarantee that they would have been out of the town.

I agree that the ending is abrupt with the family, but in a way Supes goes from a big, overwhelming fight to something smaller and contained.  It's the classroom scene all over again, only he snaps Zod's neck instead of hugging his mom.

I think the foundation is there for who Superman is, but he's not there yet.  He spent an awful long time hiding a big part of himself, he had a massive event bring him out of hiding, and now that he's saved the planet he's going to have to figure out how to actually interact with it instead of hiding out in remote areas.
 
2014-04-22 04:41:15 AM  

CTZanderman: And in all fairness, the number of times the Marvel heroes rescue people who aren't their love interests or their partner is pretty low.


This much is true. All I can think of is Iron Man 3 with the people falling from the plane, but that movie pretty much sucks. Saving masses of people from certain death using weird powers in creative ways is what I want to see in a superhero movie. Spider-Man 2 did this best with the train. Traditionally that's more Superman's M-O than say Iron Man or Hulk. Superman Returns was boring as shiat but stopping the plane from crashing is among my favorite parts in any Superman film.

I'm not a hater. I really wanted to like MoS but I have no interest in rewatching it at all. It's among the least enjoyable superhero films I've ever seen and apparently I'm not alone there. I can forgive bad movies. Hell I even purchased Spider-Man 3 on dvd to complete the trilogy in my collection. But I can't say I've ever seen anyone miss the mark quite so astoundingly as Snyder did with this one. Maybe as you say he's just "not there yet" but that's no excuse after sitting through the entire movie.
 
2014-04-22 05:18:25 AM  

CTZanderman: And in all fairness, the number of times the Marvel heroes rescue people who aren't their love interests or their partner is pretty low.


Well, just from memory...

In Iron Man, Iron Man saves a village of people he's never met from terrorists, then saves a pilot he's never met who he accidentally endangers on the way home.

In Captain America, Cap rescues thousands of POWs from Hydra during WWII.

In Thor, Thor destroys the Bifrost to save Frost Giants, who aren't just people he doesn't know, but his mortal enemies.

In Iron Man 2, Iron man repeatedly put himself in danger to protect people he doesn't know in the final battle.

In Avengers, Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye all spend a bunch of time evacuating civilians while the aliens are attacking. And Cap saves someone's life when loki is about to kill them in the bow down scene.

In Iron Man 3, there is the whole bit where Tony save everyone falling out of the plane.

In Thor 2, Thor literally saves every single living thing in every universe. So, yeah.

In Cap 2, Cap puts himself and all his friends on the line to stop the murder of 20 million people. I don't think Cap knows 20 million people.

Which covers every MCU movie other than Hulk, which I don't remember much about.

Seriously, you are just wrong.
 
2014-04-22 06:46:40 AM  

CTZanderman: I know I'm late to the party, but I'll never understand why people are so outraged that one superhero allowed part of a city to get destroyed, and so forgiving that a team of superheroes allowed part of another city to get destroyed.


It's largely about tone.  The Avengers was so bright and fun that any thoughts about the destruction being serious or body counts just didn't resonate.  Also, it highlighted the heroes saving people rather than the destruction itself.  It really became comic book violence where somehow no one really gets hurt any time the Hulk goes on a rampage and destroys city blocks.

Man of Steel, on the other hand, was so steeped in its own misery and grimness that I couldn't help think of anything but the staggering pain and death as building after building collapsed.
 
2014-04-22 07:07:30 AM  
Meant to say, "couldn't help think[ing] of nothing but".  Big difference there.
 
2014-04-22 09:01:21 AM  

RyansPrivates: smerfnablin: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

THIS x10

How many thousands of people were killed just so Snyder could have a cool backdrop for his fight scene?

Real superman would have gone outside of the city and *SPOILER* superman doesnt kill people...

/unless you count ripping that hooker in half like a phone book

So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?


I have had this complaint about the 'Superman doesn't kill people' whiners since MoS came out.  All they can say is 'in the extended version, the Kryptonians are arrested and taken to jail' - except that is not what was released in the theaters and therefore should not be 'canon' for the movies.  If you watch Superman 2 with no extended cuts, he kills the Kryptonians after he has taken away their powers.  So, really, in Superman 2, he is kind of a dick.  Once he took the powers there was no reason to kill them, just like there was no reason to go back to the diner and beat up the trucker that messed with him early.
 
2014-04-22 09:28:31 AM  

bluenote13: I have had this complaint about the 'Superman doesn't kill people' whiners since MoS came out. All they can say is 'in the extended version, the Kryptonians are arrested and taken to jail' - except that is not what was released in the theaters and therefore should not be 'canon' for the movies. If you watch Superman 2 with no extended cuts, he kills the Kryptonians after he has taken away their powers. So, really, in Superman 2, he is kind of a dick. Once he took the powers there was no reason to kill them, just like there was no reason to go back to the diner and beat up the trucker that messed with him early.


No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing. If the extended version isn't canon, then the bluenote13 version can't possibly be canon either. You can't say he killed them. All you can say is he dropped them into something.
 
2014-04-22 09:38:49 AM  

CTZanderman: I would consider the terraforming attempt by Zod's lil' army, which was the cause of a considerable amount of damage to the city, to be fairly war-like and not so much a fistfight.  But we can ignore the massive amount of damage that had already been done before the fistfight if we want to keep up the hate.


The difference being that in the Avengers there was a portal directly over the city with hundreds of those things pouring out. They couldn't exactly move the portal to the desert.
 
2014-04-22 10:10:08 AM  

Fafai: No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing.


Indeed, if the tone of the whole movie is anything to go by, they landed in a big multi-coloured ball pit while the Price is Right "loser" music played.  To assume that they were killed, that Superman flat-out murdered them in cold blood, is so staggeringly out of step with the rest of the movie that I think it says more about the viewer than the movie if that's what you see there.
 
2014-04-22 10:12:09 AM  

Fafai: bluenote13: I have had this complaint about the 'Superman doesn't kill people' whiners since MoS came out. All they can say is 'in the extended version, the Kryptonians are arrested and taken to jail' - except that is not what was released in the theaters and therefore should not be 'canon' for the movies. If you watch Superman 2 with no extended cuts, he kills the Kryptonians after he has taken away their powers. So, really, in Superman 2, he is kind of a dick. Once he took the powers there was no reason to kill them, just like there was no reason to go back to the diner and beat up the trucker that messed with him early.

No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing. If the extended version isn't canon, then the bluenote13 version can't possibly be canon either. You can't say he killed them. All you can say is he dropped them into something.


So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.  He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series.   Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.
 
2014-04-22 10:15:19 AM  

RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.


Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.
 
2014-04-22 10:35:17 AM  

RyansPrivates: And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well.


I'm thinking that the trucker tends to pick on people, aka he's a bully and a jerk.

Superman going back to "teach him a lesson" is within the realm of showing to the bully that someone that he picked on returned and dished it right back, so that this trucker will think twice about harassing anyone else in the future.
 
2014-04-22 10:41:22 AM  
Superman beating up the trucker is definitely sending the wrong message in the movie, but again it's played so much for laughs that it's far more silly than anything, and a HUGE leap from there to "yeah, he probably murdered some people as well".  If you watch the scene, the worst damage the guy suffered was self-inflicted when he punched Clark in the stomach.  The rest was all Looney Tunes-style violence - and that's using the term in its loosest possible definition.   Again, tone counts for a lot in movies.
 
2014-04-22 10:58:11 AM  

Gawain: Fafai: No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing.

Indeed, if the tone of the whole movie is anything to go by, they landed in a big multi-coloured ball pit while the Price is Right "loser" music played.  To assume that they were killed, that Superman flat-out murdered them in cold blood, is so staggeringly out of step with the rest of the movie that I think it says more about the viewer than the movie if that's what you see there.


I think it would have been a funny scene if in Superman 3 we saw Zod pushing a shopping cart down the streets of Metropolis.

/okay maybe not "LOL" funny
 
2014-04-22 10:59:38 AM  
I actually think earth under Zod's rule would be pretty sweet. He didn't really bother anyone when he was in power and he wouldn't have put up with all the wars and terrorism around the world.

Hail Zod.
 
2014-04-22 11:02:17 AM  

RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.

Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.


Let's not lie by omission though - Superman had every intention of killing Darkseid right then and there. His stated intention was to beat him to death with his bare hands.

Supes has complicated relationships. He and Lex are almost co-dependent. He loves and loathes Lex Luthor.

But he *HATES* Darkseid. Mr. Miniskirt pushes all of his buttons. He makes Supes reckless and crazy with rage. He compromises his principles. He becomes homicidal.

It's always fun when those two crazy kids get together.
 
2014-04-22 11:07:03 AM  

Mugato: I actually think earth under Zod's rule would be pretty sweet. He didn't really bother anyone when he was in power and he wouldn't have put up with all the wars and terrorism around the world.

Hail Zod.


Kneel when you say that.
 
2014-04-22 11:09:06 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Supes has complicated relationships. He and Lex are almost co-dependent. He loves and loathes Lex Luthor.


Didn't Luthor hold a funeral for Superman when he "died"?

Then in Superman 2, in yet another dick move, he strands Luthor in the Fortress of Solitude. Then again in that universe, the North Pole is less than a mile long before the first Canadian diner.
 
2014-04-22 12:01:44 PM  

RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.

Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.


To be fair to Superman regarding Darkseid: NO ONE, not even Luthor, pushes Superman's buttons in quite that way. After killing Dan Turpin and using Superman as a mind controlled slave, making the people of Earth frightened of him. ("If I knew killing one human would affect you so much, Kal-El, I'd have killed billions(or something like that)") The showdown when he "kills" Darkseid he fought Batman tooth and nail to commit suicide sacrificing himself to ensure it was done. He was furious with Batman for not letting him do it for sure. While he considers that Luthor could be redeemed, he sees nothing for Darkseid, the enemy of all life and freedom. Even Zod and the evil Kryptonians he considers misguided. It causes him lots of trouble not to go down the Justice Lord path, but if he cannot bring himself to kill Darkseid, there is literally no one he could morally kill.
 
2014-04-22 12:08:29 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.

Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.

Let's not lie by omission though - Superman had every intention of killing Darkseid right then and there. His stated intention was to beat him to death with his bare hands.

Supes has complicated relationships. He and Lex are almost co-dependent. He loves and loathes Lex Luthor.

But he *HATES* Darkseid. Mr. Miniskirt pushes all of his buttons. He makes Supes reckless and crazy with rage. He compromises his principles. He becomes homicidal.

It's always fun when those two crazy kids get together.


Awesome moment in AU, when he defeats Darkseid on Apokalips, telling the people now you're free, they lift him away and tend to him. "I am many things, Kal-El. But here I am GOD."

I think Superman was even good to Starro.His relationship with Luthor IS complicated. The running theme I like is that while he wisely doesn't trust Luthor after all his evil schemes, he genuinely hopes that vast intelligence will be used eventually for good. There IS hope for Luthor.
 
2014-04-22 12:15:02 PM  

Fafai: CTZanderman:

I feel the need to add here that I love Superman and am not a Marvel fanboy by any stretch. I'm not coming from a position of bias here but as a moviegoer who would like to enjoy silver screen adaptations of all the Superheroes regardless of who publishes them. I've never read a Captain America comic in my life but I can tell you his films and his appearance in the Avengers nailed what I do know of his character a hundred times better than Man of Steel was able to grasp the fundamentals on Superman.


Cap was never my favorite but they did a good job with capturing the feel of "boy scout hero" without being hokey. It can be done.

"What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the America Way?"
 
2014-04-22 01:53:11 PM  

RyansPrivates: Anyone else sick of "this" as a response, even when they agree with the thing the "this" is "this"-ing?

/THIS
//THIS
///THIS


That.
 
2014-04-22 02:12:27 PM  
Even Superman has his limits.  Darkseid to Luthor are Apples and Oranges in comparison.  Darkseid is looking to eliminate ALL LIFE in the Universe. ALL of it. I think given the point in JLU where that fight occurs, Darkseid is so close to acquiring the "Antilife Equation" that Supes is more than justified in taking the dude down. They've fought multiple times, and no matter how many times Darkseids been beaten back , he always returned for more.  This time...it had to be dealt with once and for all. Its not like the situation with Batman and the Joker...  Batman could easily kill the Joker, and by all rights probably should...but he won't due to his code, which is entirely unflexable.  However as has been demonstrated repeatedly , even his code has limits...he can let bad people like the Joker hang themselves.
 
2014-04-22 02:20:05 PM  

Sybarite: These two were my favorite part.

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]


You know they're in the phantom zone hate-farking away the time.

As to everyone clinging to the Chris Reeve Supes flicks, it's absolutely true and depressing because the first movie was awful with an ending that simply cannot be fixed via any sort of retcon.  Spinning the Earth backwards to change time is just too farking stupid.  Also, Lex Luthor as a glorified real-estate scammer with a gangsters moll and an idiot henchman didn't help. And I grew up with this movie, I have real memories of the early 80's.  I'm not too young and wouldn't understand, the movie just sucks.

The second one was beter all the way up until Supes kisses away Lois's memory.  Also, just farking stupid... BUT retcon-able.

Superman Returns could have fixed the memory wipe first thing, butt re-enacting the scene, but from Clark's POV, where the camera follows him out of the room and shows him pull a glowing crystal(or whatever) from his pocket, revealing the whole thing was Kryptonian tech.Stupid, yes, but the audience would thank you, especially as Lois's memory would become a key plot point, with even Luthor realizing that she doesn't remember the Fortress which is what tips him off about who Connor's dad is.  When Lois get's clocked during the yacht sinking be an easy thing to have that jog her memory and explain why she isn't more than a little pissed off when she goes to the hospital room and demands to know(as Kevin Smith pointed out)"When did we fark?"

The whole damn trilogy is a mess, and that's BEFORE you go into how badly the character himself is handled - for all of it's faults, Man of Steel AT LEAST pegs the identity crisis correctly.  It was NEVER about Clark v. SUPERMAN, Superman is a nickname, not a person.  It's about a kid named Clark finding out that he wasn't born on Earth and can fly. It's Clark v. Kal-el, and guess what, Clark wins. For that alone Man of Steel is the superior film.
 
2014-04-22 02:22:37 PM  

Grungehamster: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

I get the argument that Superman was forced to fight in the city because he was barely on equal terms with Zod and his crew and couldn't dictate the terms of the battle, and that he was new/inexperienced so he couldn't outmaneuver him. My problem is that he's just as willing to destroy buildings by throwing Zod through them and blowing up property while ignoring all the people fleeing in terror ("It was safe! Everyone probably evacuated the buildings!" my ass). If he was seen minimizing/mitigating the damage of the fight it would go a long way to actually satisfying a lot of nerd complaints about that fight. Then at the end, after what was probably hundreds killed in the fight so far, suddenly one family being in danger is what drives Superman to kill Zod? And then after his initial scream we cut immediately to everyone happy that the threat is gone and NOBODY discusses what just happened?


No one will probably see this post.  But Superman does not throw a Zod through a single (finished/occupied) building.

At the start of the fight Zod smashes Supes into a skyscraper.  He then uses heat vision for the first time causing the ONE AND ONLY skyscraper to crash DURING the Zod/Supes fight.

Then they fight on the street.  Zod throws a gas liner (lexcorp) at superman and blows up a parking garage.  More ground fighting as cars rain from the sky.

Then Superman flies to the top of a building, and Zod does that monkey climb up it.  They smash in the middle blowing a portion out of the building, and Supes chucks Zod through the construction tower.  Zod tries to hit him with the beam and Superman heat visions it.

Then you have an aerial fight where superman/zod grind their faces along the sides of the buildings.  Then Zod throws Superman (not the other way around) through a giant expanse of buildings (seeing Supes go through an empty hallway) before finally the fight goes up to space.  The sattellite is wrecked causing more destruction in the city before the final scene in grand central.

snowshovel: Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back).

Which is why the end fight scene at the end was so awful. The more talented fighter (Zod) should've have squashed the guy who had less-than-0% fighting experience at the point when Zod decides to not hold back any punches since the movie showed them to be pretty at equal strength at that time...regardless of all the mumbo-jumbo talk the movie said about Clark's 30 years of being on the planet. Or Zod should've been showing using that vast amount of military strategy to his advantage. Or something.

Remember, that born-to-be-a-nebbish-scientist Ka-El almost beat Zod in a fist fight at the start of the movie. It's almost as if Snyder sets up an interesting world of idea, but then at some point he goes "It's cool punchy-kicky time! Let's throw away all of those awesome ideas!"

Then again, Zod could just be a lousy fighter regardless of his genetic upbringing.

I don't know, sure, Superman 2 is in a time capsule of when it was made, but resolution of how Superman beats Zod just feels a lot more interesting, where Superman realizes that Zod and himself really can't beat each other up to a win, so he uses his knowledge of people around him and finds a clever solution (by using Luthor's underhandedness). I kind of wish that that's the way MoS would've ended, with Clark using some bit of his 30 years of human knowledge to win the battle, instead of simply taking the easy story-telling way out o ...


Jor-El beat the crap outta Zod before Zod sucker stabbed him.
 
2014-04-22 02:31:16 PM  

Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back). The only time he really brought the fight to a city was when he lost his shiat when Zod threatened Martha and he hurled him into Smallville. All during the Metropolis fight, Superman was either on the other side of the world trying to disable the World Engine, or was struggling to gain any kind of control of the fight. It was an origin story, so a young and inexperienced Superman isn't going to quickly gain the upper hand.

I rewatched it a couple of times recently on HBO and it really holds together well from a plotting standpoint. There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script, aside from why the Kryptonians would bother changing the environment of Earth to be more like Krypton if it will make them weaker.


Actually it kind of is.  There's a weak throw away line by Zod about having a painful adjustment to Earth's atmosphere(which gets forgotten about during the actual fight) more telling is Zod's stated purpose.  He was bred to protect Krypton, and Earth with all of it's greenery was NOT Krypton.  The Krypton he was protecting did not have super-powers, which is reason enough for a fanatic (like the character was re-envisioned as) to simply dismiss the opportunity.  They didn't have it on Krypton, then they didn't need it.

Remember, Jor-El doesn't say that Zod was a ruthless despot that would stop at nothing to impose an iron fist over Krypton, he says that Zod's coup "was too late."  The obvious implication was that the ruling council really was totally responsible for the destruction of Krypton and that the military had failed by not stopping the politicians.  It makes sense that a zealot would take away from that a desire to simply eliminate the bloodlines of those that were responsible for the destruction of their homeworld,  Jor-El's plan seems to involve Clark one day recreating the Kryptonian race, perhaps hybridizing them with humans once the human figure out the tech because Clark has inspired them to greatness.  That's what I took from it anyway.
 
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