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(Variety)   Didn't like "Man of Steel"? It's not Zack Snyder's fault, it's yours for clinging to Christopher Reeve's Superman   (variety.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Christopher Reeves, Zack Snyder, Superman, massive damage, Jeremy Irons  
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2331 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 21 Apr 2014 at 8:57 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



257 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2014-04-21 05:58:21 AM  
Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.
 
2014-04-21 06:47:41 AM  
New Superman drinks old Superman's milkshake.
 
2014-04-21 07:18:47 AM  
Not enough kneeling before Zod. Besides that, it was fine.
 
2014-04-21 08:36:04 AM  

K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.




Superman tried throwing Zod out into space, Zod fought his way back

This was the extent of damage done in Superman II
geekinthought.files.wordpress.com
Oh. Really. Yeah. That's a huge threat.
 
2014-04-21 08:37:09 AM  
Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.
 
2014-04-21 08:39:11 AM  
Um, no.

www.doctormacro.com

When I was a child, this would come on verrrrry early on Sunday mornings.
 
2014-04-21 09:01:33 AM  

basemetal: Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.


Captain America 2 would like a word with you ($586M worldwide).

Mediocre superhero flicks have been way over done, and DC just can't seem to figure out what to do with its property.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Marvel figured out a formula and it's working very well.
 
2014-04-21 09:02:02 AM  
He's not the Superman of All-Star Superman or Justice League, so his argument is invalid.

Paging PiptheTroll, noted Supermanologist to supesplain to the director.
 
2014-04-21 09:02:11 AM  
Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.
 
2014-04-21 09:02:46 AM  

basemetal: Or...........poorly made superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.


FTFY
 
2014-04-21 09:09:30 AM  

K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.


Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back). The only time he really brought the fight to a city was when he lost his shiat when Zod threatened Martha and he hurled him into Smallville. All during the Metropolis fight, Superman was either on the other side of the world trying to disable the World Engine, or was struggling to gain any kind of control of the fight. It was an origin story, so a young and inexperienced Superman isn't going to quickly gain the upper hand.

I rewatched it a couple of times recently on HBO and it really holds together well from a plotting standpoint. There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script, aside from why the Kryptonians would bother changing the environment of Earth to be more like Krypton if it will make them weaker.
 
2014-04-21 09:10:45 AM  
Man of Steel had a good movie inside of it. There was just enough of it present that I could see its shape: As a child, Superman struggles to cope with his powers and his parents' (especially his father's) desire to keep those powers hidden in order to protect him. His father dies in a way that makes him feel guilty for fighting his father all those years about whether to hide his powers and as a result he retreats from the world and strictly follows his father's wishes as penance.

The arrival of Zod forces him into a journey of self-discovery and, ultimately, acceptance of who he is in order for him to emerge just in time as the hero the world needs. His younger years are told in flashback culminating in the big reveal about the death of his father to explain why Superman is the slightly misanthropic but still well-meaning wreck he is at the beginning of the film, after which he decides to move forward and become the person he's meant to be in the present.

You could make a decent movie with that outline. Unfortunately, they needed massive edits because the movie was way too long for the amount of content they had, and they bungled a few critical scenes for that plot to have any weight.
 
2014-04-21 09:12:43 AM  
Never has a headline been more accurate.
 
2014-04-21 09:17:40 AM  

K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.


Watch the movie again.  The fight was  after the world machine destroyed a good share of Metropolis.  Oh and if Superman didn't fight Zod in Metropolis, Zod would have continued down his desired path of killing people regardless, after the world machine had been destroyed.  Exactly what should have Superman done?  Stood outside the city and watched Zod kill people?  That way, in your mind, Superman wouldn't have been there and not been responsible?
 
2014-04-21 09:18:51 AM  
Giving Pa Kent schizophrenia was a bold choice. I'll give him that.
 
2014-04-21 09:21:56 AM  

Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.


Yep.

Good for nostalgia only.
 
2014-04-21 09:23:27 AM  
Sorry Zack, but his moment from Superman II, had far more "fark yeah, it is on!" then your entire movie.
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-04-21 09:24:43 AM  
I went in to Man of Steel with really, really low expectations, so I ended up enjoying it.
 
2014-04-21 09:26:32 AM  
I liked it.....but then anything, even Superman III, would be better than the abortion that was 'Superman Returns'.
 
2014-04-21 09:26:47 AM  

Mad_Radhu: (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back)


And in S2 he goes back after getting back his powers and kicks that trucker's ass. That never sat right with me.
 
2014-04-21 09:27:37 AM  

K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.


In Superman II, they destroyed a good chunk of Metropolis before the fight was taken to the Fortress of Solitude. Plus, in that movie, Zod's only motivation was to fight Superman.

In Man of Steel, Superman had to stop the World Machine from killing humanity. He had to fight Zod and his folks to make that possible, and getting them to go to another venue doesn't seem feasible, when their job was to stand by and protect the World Machine.
 
2014-04-21 09:27:43 AM  
Except that nobody is complainibg about Henry Cavill's performance. He did a great job with the material he was given.

Just like Reeve did.
 
2014-04-21 09:28:15 AM  

ToastmasterGeneral: Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.

Yep.

Good for nostalgia only.


Yes, and Peter Jackson's King Kong was better than the 1933 version. You kids today, it takes more than splosions to make a good movie. Sorry, but Batman was 100% correct, "Man of Steel . . . was uninspiring."
 
2014-04-21 09:29:15 AM  
Man of Steel is a good flick, holds up with the others in this day and age, and has the proper tone. Haters are just regurgitating shiat they hear on the Internet. Like someone said above, I re watched it on HBO, and none of the usual criticisms of this movie really hold any weight....and especially DERP METROPOLIS one. To quote the girl (whatever her name was) "when you save one, we'll kill a million"

(or something close to that). so yeah....no...he had to fight in the city.
 
2014-04-21 09:31:48 AM  

chewielouie: ToastmasterGeneral: Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.

Yep.

Good for nostalgia only.

Yes, and Peter Jackson's King Kong was better than the 1933 version. You kids today, it takes more than splosions to make a good movie. Sorry, but Batman was 100% correct, "Man of Steel . . . was uninspiring."


Judging a 34 year old movie by its visuals is retarded.
 
2014-04-21 09:32:36 AM  

K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.


I get the argument that Superman was forced to fight in the city because he was barely on equal terms with Zod and his crew and couldn't dictate the terms of the battle, and that he was new/inexperienced so he couldn't outmaneuver him. My problem is that he's just as willing to destroy buildings by throwing Zod through them and blowing up property while ignoring all the people fleeing in terror ("It was safe! Everyone probably evacuated the buildings!" my ass). If he was seen minimizing/mitigating the damage of the fight it would go a long way to actually satisfying a lot of nerd complaints about that fight. Then at the end, after what was probably hundreds killed in the fight so far, suddenly one family being in danger is what drives Superman to kill Zod? And then after his initial scream we cut immediately to everyone happy that the threat is gone and NOBODY discusses what just happened?
 
2014-04-21 09:32:40 AM  
I didn't care for Man of Steel because it was directed like a combination Levi's commercial/video game cutscene.
 
2014-04-21 09:34:11 AM  
Perhaps Snyder should put out a press release, tweet something, make some effort to tell everybody waiting for a Superman like the one they remember from the 80s, or even from the 90s sitcom, that the plotlines now are of headier substance than in the past. Nevertheless, those disenfranchised few should hold on, best they can, as I think Snyder will take their concerns for the franchise to concern, he hasn't dropped them, forgotten them, or anything. But, a storyline like that of the most recent film was too heavy, even for Superman to lift.
 
2014-04-21 09:37:24 AM  
southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com
 
2014-04-21 09:38:19 AM  

Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,


I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.
 
2014-04-21 09:40:18 AM  
The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.
 
2014-04-21 09:40:25 AM  

K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.


THIS x10

How many thousands of people were killed just so Snyder could have a cool backdrop for his fight scene?

Real superman would have gone outside of the city and *SPOILER* superman doesnt kill people...

/unless you count ripping that hooker in half like a phone book
 
2014-04-21 09:41:27 AM  
It was a good movie. Nothing amazing. I should have waited for the movie on Redbox
 
2014-04-21 09:44:19 AM  
Loved Man of Steel and I love that it's on 24/7 on HBO because I keep catching more.

I only have minor complaints and they're in the "accept the premise" department.

1)  Zod goes to Martha Kents front door looking for Clark.  The world can't piece together then that he's Superman?
2) Presumably lots of people died in the battle.  Why was Superman so concerned about the 3 people in the corner Zod was going to heat-vision kill?  It would have made more sense if Lois was in that group, but instead they were just some people.  And couldn't Superman have put his hands over Zod's eyes?  Or couldn't those people, I don't know, have ducked under the heat ray?

Again, minor things.

As for Superman II, Zod DID do lots of damage and kill lots of people.  Though due to the FX of the day, it wasn't as easy to destroy a city.  Blowing people down the street was easier!

Also, why does Ursa flinch when the snake bites her?  She's super now!  She wouldn't have even felt it!!  That's the kind of thing that would get TORN APART on the internet these days.
 
2014-04-21 09:44:36 AM  

smerfnablin: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

THIS x10

How many thousands of people were killed just so Snyder could have a cool backdrop for his fight scene?

Real superman would have gone outside of the city and *SPOILER* superman doesnt kill people...

/unless you count ripping that hooker in half like a phone book


So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?
 
2014-04-21 09:45:29 AM  
So, lets get this straight...no Lex Luthor, and his identity isn't really a secret, and the bad guys can't breathe our atmosphere?  Weird.

Reeve did a great job with Supeman.  This was a nice take on him as well.  But the villains were terrible.  In fact the supporting cast in this movie was wooden and their roles boring.  Except Pa Kent.  He played a nice role...even though it was Costner.  And the guy playing Clark was....boring.

And ultimately what I didn't like about the movie is that Superman became too powerful.  He is not 1000 times stronger than us, he is a million times stronger.  He is too powerful to be a fun character.
 
2014-04-21 09:47:00 AM  

Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.


They were embarrassing to watch when they were made. Man of Steel was still terrible though; got's nothing to do with Reeve or the older movies. The writing was dumb; the philosophy was not just dumb and wrong but actively bad; the acting was wooden; and the attempt to make the Supes property "edgy", "angsty", and "dark" was unnecessary and frankly misses the entire point of the character. Changing Superman from an earnest, hardworking achiever deeply involved in his(adopted) community and with a heart so big he went into journalism so he could fight in print the injustices he can't legally punch to bits, into a Nietzschean loner demi-god detached from human society and sent purposely to awe humanity into submission undermines not only what makes Supes great and the message he was always written to convey, but also transforms his father from a far-sighted, lone moral voice against the excesses and arrogance of the Kyptonian elite into a mere proponent of their galaxy-wide outrages and chauvinistic racism by different means.

Man of Steel just completely misses the point, repeatedly. The CG for the action sequences was pretty sweet though.
 
2014-04-21 09:49:54 AM  
These two were my favorite part.

31.media.tumblr.com

31.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-04-21 09:50:00 AM  
For me it was a question of they say one thing, do another, such as

Freezing cold, you'll die after a couple of minutes of exposure.. so Lois Lane goes out in this cold and has no problem whatsoever, wearing a flimsy coat.

No powers in the ship... the atmosphere from Krypton? but yet a small breach and he's instantly fine (considering that he does get to breather any "earth air").

It's just those little things that really messed up... Superman's power are from the sun, not the air he breathes, etc.

They kept messing things up like that which contradicts one thing after another.. if you're going to make a big deal about something, stick with it, don't change or invalidate it in the next scene to basically "Deus ex Machina" everything.
 
2014-04-21 09:50:00 AM  

smerfnablin: superman doesnt kill people

I hate this argument.  This is making the article's point.  Forget you know ANYTHING about Superman.  This is a NEW story.  Everything is new.  It's the first time you've heard of Superman.  THIS Superman killed someone.  And he was so upset about it, because he clearly didn't want to but had no choice, that maybe NOW his rule will be "I won't kill people every again"
Maybe this is where his code comes from?  

Dwight_Yeast: Someone broken like Bruce Wayne

Hate this argument too.  Poor kid was an orphan.  Lots of other superheroes have MUCH worse lives.  Much worse childhoods.  Sure it's devastating that he saw his parents killed.  But c'mon..... is that justification for this whole life?  He still grew up in the lap of luxury.  Not like his parents were killed so he was forced to live on the streets and forced to turn into this Batman character.
 
2014-04-21 09:50:23 AM  

Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.


Sorry, but no. Man of Steel was ok, but it failed to make me care about a single character in the movie. Pa Kent dies, meh. Ma Kent get's threatened, oh well. Lois's life is in danger, so what? Hell I found myself barely caring about Supes, much less anyone else in the flick. The characters just seemed flat to me.
 
2014-04-21 09:50:58 AM  

buntz: Also, why does Ursa flinch when the snake bites her?  She's super now!  She wouldn't have even felt it!!  That's the kind of thing that would get TORN APART on the internet these days.


I thought of that before. It probably just startled her. She wasn't used to being indestructible yet.
 
2014-04-21 09:52:07 AM  
My biggest complaint was the stupid explanation for the 'S' on his chest. I know it was taken from some of the more modern comics, but that shiat doesn't mean 'Hope', It means Superman.
 
2014-04-21 09:53:20 AM  

RyansPrivates: So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?


You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities? (then flies off with Lois back to Metropolis where he wipes her memories)
 
2014-04-21 09:55:21 AM  

imfallen_angel: RyansPrivates: So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?

You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities? (then flies off with Lois back to Metropolis where he wipes her memories)


Not the emboldend piece.  The theatrical release didn't have that tacked on PC to make palatable for TV. In the theatrical release they get thrown down a trench to (presumably) their deaths.  And they are powerless at the time.
 
2014-04-21 09:55:32 AM  

imfallen_angel: You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities?


wasn't in the theatrical release, therefore I don't accept it as "canon"

In the movie WE saw, he threw them in a dark, possibly bottomless, pit.

Unless we're too assume he has some mattresses down there
 
2014-04-21 09:56:09 AM  

imfallen_angel: RyansPrivates: So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?

You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities? (then flies off with Lois back to Metropolis where he wipes her memories)


You watched an entirely different film. Maybe Indian Superman.
 
2014-04-21 09:57:23 AM  

buntz: Hate this argument too. Poor kid was an orphan. Lots of other superheroes have MUCH worse lives. Much worse childhoods. Sure it's devastating that he saw his parents killed. But c'mon..... is that justification for this whole life? He still grew up in the lap of luxury. Not like his parents were killed so he was forced to live on the streets and forced to turn into this Batman character.


He was traumatized, blamed himself (he made them leave the Theatre), he became obsessed with the crimes that's happening all the time in Gotham.

When you consider that so many Farkers appear traumatized over the most denign thing, are outraged over the stupidest things and rant on Fark like it's their life's mission... yeah, I'd say that watching your parents be killed in front of you in a way that you blame yourself, will break something in your psyche.
 
2014-04-21 09:57:45 AM  

Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back).


Which is why the end fight scene at the end was so awful. The more talented fighter (Zod) should've have squashed the guy who had less-than-0% fighting experience at the point when Zod decides to not hold back any punches since the movie showed them to be pretty at equal strength at that time...regardless of all the mumbo-jumbo talk the movie said about Clark's 30 years of being on the planet. Or Zod should've been showing using that vast amount of military strategy to his advantage. Or something.

Remember, that born-to-be-a-nebbish-scientist Ka-El almost beat Zod in a fist fight at the start of the movie. It's almost as if Snyder sets up an interesting world of idea, but then at some point he goes "It's cool punchy-kicky time! Let's throw away all of those awesome ideas!"

Then again, Zod could just be a lousy fighter regardless of his genetic upbringing.

I don't know, sure, Superman 2 is in a time capsule of when it was made, but resolution of how Superman beats Zod just feels a lot more interesting, where Superman realizes that Zod and himself really can't beat each other up to a win, so he uses his knowledge of people around him and finds a clever solution (by using Luthor's underhandedness). I kind of wish that that's the way MoS would've ended, with Clark using some bit of his 30 years of human knowledge to win the battle, instead of simply taking the easy story-telling way out of "I break your neck like a chicken bone."

The weirdest part of MoS is how completely joyless and un-fun the movie is. For all of it's faults, Superman Returns has more fun and wonder in this 1:30 scene than the entire MoS movie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJ_VSQrW4Y

//and yes, superman logo cellophane trap is stupid
 
2014-04-21 09:58:15 AM  

imfallen_angel: Superman's power are from the sun, not the air he breathes, etc.


As I understand, recent DC Comics retcons have Kryptonian abilities being a result both of yellow sunlight exposure and the atmosphere of Earth.
 
2014-04-21 09:58:19 AM  
No, Man of Steel sucked because the script was terrible.  I hear a lot of people defending Man of Steel from various criticisms, but I have never heard of a reason the movie was actually good.  What did you like about Man of Steel, because I don't know of anything it did right.

/Seriously, who the fark thought turning the dad into a paranoid nutcase then killing him off in the dumbest way possible was a good idea?
 
2014-04-21 09:59:40 AM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.


Okay, forgot about the Pa Kent scene. That was pretty terrible.

As for the dead bodies, they established pretty well in the scene where Perry White and the guy from House of Cards are trying to rescue the intern that people were dying left and right. The movie couldn't really show the corpses and keep PG-13, but it was implied that upteen thousands were getting crushed by the World Engine doing its thing.

Again, it really seemed like Superman was fighting for his life, so he didn't have as much control over if they were flying through skyscrapers or not. Most of the time Zod was the one hurling Supes through the buildings or knocking them down.
 
2014-04-21 10:00:10 AM  

scottydoesntknow: My biggest complaint was the stupid explanation for the 'S' on his chest. I know it was taken from some of the more modern comics, but that shiat doesn't mean 'Hope', It means Superman.


Funny thing about that.  A guy I work with HATES superman, tolerates Batman, but can't stand any of the Marvel movies.  (He doesn't like the whole superhero trope, to be honest).  That being said, he found the whole "that isn't a 'S'" thing from the trailer to be believable; he didn't like the idea that a guy from another civilization would suddenly adopt our language).  For me I thought it was kind of silly (maybe that's what the 'S' means).  I liked the movie just fine, the best IMO, since the Donner Cut of Superman II, about the same as the original release of Superman 2, but not as good as the the original Superman with Reeve.
 
2014-04-21 10:02:09 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.


But a big complaint about the movie is Snyder did make Superman into a flawed character, it's just a flawed character that already exists in the DC comic/movie universe.

The movie had a lot of potential like many people have said. A lot of the things that Snyder added could make for a darker, more conflicted Last Son of Krypton than we're used to. The problems with the movie ultimately boil down to finding moments unsatisfying (Pa Kent's death coming off ridiculously forced giving how drawn out it was paced and that the damn dog was saved first to set it up), his behavior uncharacteristic even with the darker tone (how Superman chose to fight Zod with maximum collateral damage even ignoring what Zod does in the fight), and the decision not to explore the killing of Zod (something that could lead to the angst and internal conflict Snyder obviously wants Supes to have) in favor of having everyone celebrate a happy ending at the end. All you need is a 20 second clip of Superman admitting to Lois that he can't help but feel this victory is somewhat bittersweet, that he's going to take some time to process what went down but that he thinks he'll be alright and force a smile. Nope, it's yell after the kill, then everyone lives happily ever after until any sequel where it might be addressed.
 
2014-04-21 10:02:35 AM  

RyansPrivates: imfallen_angel: RyansPrivates: So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?

You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities? (then flies off with Lois back to Metropolis where he wipes her memories)

Not the emboldend piece.  The theatrical release didn't have that tacked on PC to make palatable for TV. In the theatrical release they get thrown down a trench to (presumably) their deaths.  And they are powerless at the time.


buntz: imfallen_angel: You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities?

wasn't in the theatrical release, therefore I don't accept it as "canon"

In the movie WE saw, he threw them in a dark, possibly bottomless, pit.

Unless we're too assume he has some mattresses down there


I was much younger when this movie came out, but I still figured that he pushed them down the hole to some sort of "jail" so to deal with them later... either the fortress had a "jail" or he'd get them later.

But regardless, there is a bit of a difference in pushing three tugs down a ice slide and snapping their neck.

But the snapping of the neck in Man of Steel was fine by me, if anything it might have been the only part of the whole movie where he really needed to face the reality of his position of being the "hero".
 
2014-04-21 10:03:18 AM  
"The thing I was surprised about in response to Superman was how everyone clings to the Christopher Reeve version of Superman."

That's your task as a director... make everyone forget about the CR version.

He does make a good point about the destruction and violence, however. Comic fanboys are always talking about sticking with "canon", but when they do it in this movie everyone freaks out saying Superman would never do that.
 
2014-04-21 10:03:42 AM  

EyeballKid: Perhaps Snyder should put out a press release, tweet something, make some effort to tell everybody waiting for a Superman like the one they remember from the 80s, or even from the 90s sitcom, that the plotlines now are of headier substance than in the past. Nevertheless, those disenfranchised few should hold on, best they can, as I think Snyder will take their concerns for the franchise to concern, he hasn't dropped them, forgotten them, or anything. But, a storyline like that of the most recent film was too heavy, even for Superman to lift.


There was nothing more intellectual about Man of Steel. Less optimistic, more misanthropic, lacking in a sense of humor and the ridiculous, sure; but that's not a lack of ardent shallowness, but rather ardent shallowness pointed in a different direction. Also the presentation of female characters in the film bugged me, though I can't exactly put my finger on why(that they always seemed to be there merely to be saved? That their parts seemed to revolve entirely around male characters? Shooting Jor's death to make it come after his wife drew his attention away from Zod seemed pretty unnecessary, too. I don't know, Synder's treatment of women felt skeezy to me).

I will amend my earlier post a bit by agreeing that Cavil(and the young Kal actors) did do a good job with the material he had, though. His scene in the interrogation chamber was excellent.
 
2014-04-21 10:09:01 AM  

Dimensio: imfallen_angel: Superman's power are from the sun, not the air he breathes, etc.

As I understand, recent DC Comics retcons have Kryptonian abilities being a result both of yellow sunlight exposure and the atmosphere of Earth.


Good thing that he didn't land in China then... he'd have super lung cancer by twelve.

Well, at some point they need to stop with the retcons... seriously. if you need to reestablish the origins and rules or the heros over and over so to make it fit the new and epic fashion of the day, it's just terrible writing.

Just kill the character off and create a new one already.
 
2014-04-21 10:11:09 AM  
Man of Steel was basically a cartoon, and as such, I enjoyed it. It had some nice setpieces, cool fight scenes, and Amy Adams's ass. I didn't feel it necessary to look deeper than that.
 
2014-04-21 10:13:55 AM  

imfallen_angel: Dimensio: imfallen_angel: Superman's power are from the sun, not the air he breathes, etc.

As I understand, recent DC Comics retcons have Kryptonian abilities being a result both of yellow sunlight exposure and the atmosphere of Earth.

Good thing that he didn't land in China then... he'd have super lung cancer by twelve.

Well, at some point they need to stop with the retcons... seriously. if you need to reestablish the origins and rules or the heros over and over so to make it fit the new and epic fashion of the day, it's just terrible writing.

Just kill the character off and create a new one already.


One of the reasons Captain America works is because they took the 1940s super patriot and put him in today's world.  They didn't change what made him a hero.  They changed his surroundings and focus on what it takes for him to stay true to that ideal of the 1940s.  Batman is similar, in that they take this broken rich kid and let him do it his way.  When his way is illegal, he struggles with the morality of it and ultimately decides that he needs to be outside the law.  Superman is the ideal "American Way of Justice" guy.  He is the ultimate do it by the books hero.  This movie throws all that away and turns him into a kid with lots of doubts about what he is supposed to do...and at the same time makes him completely indestructible and untouchable by human standards...totally alien.
 
2014-04-21 10:14:24 AM  
Frank Miller didn't make Superman go dark.

How is Frank Miller able to grasp this point of character and Zack Snyder isn't?  It's like it's opposite day.
 
2014-04-21 10:17:18 AM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.

Sorry, but no. Man of Steel was ok, but it failed to make me care about a single character in the movie. Pa Kent dies, meh. Ma Kent get's threatened, oh well. Lois's life is in danger, so what? Hell I found myself barely caring about Supes, much less anyone else in the flick. The characters just seemed flat to me.


I cared about Lois' ass.
 
2014-04-21 10:21:55 AM  

snowshovel: Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back).

Which is why the end fight scene at the end was so awful. The more talented fighter (Zod) should've have squashed the guy who had less-than-0% fighting experience at the point when Zod decides to not hold back any punches since the movie showed them to be pretty at equal strength at that time...regardless of all the mumbo-jumbo talk the movie said about Clark's 30 years of being on the planet. Or Zod should've been showing using that vast amount of military strategy to his advantage. Or something.

Remember, that born-to-be-a-nebbish-scientist Ka-El almost beat Zod in a fist fight at the start of the movie. It's almost as if Snyder sets up an interesting world of idea, but then at some point he goes "It's cool punchy-kicky time! Let's throw away all of those awesome ideas!"

Then again, Zod could just be a lousy fighter regardless of his genetic upbringing.

I don't know, sure, Superman 2 is in a time capsule of when it was made, but resolution of how Superman beats Zod just feels a lot more interesting, where Superman realizes that Zod and himself really can't beat each other up to a win, so he uses his knowledge of people around him and finds a clever solution (by using Luthor's underhandedness). I kind of wish that that's the way MoS would've ended, with Clark using some bit of his 30 years of human knowledge to win the battle, instead of simply taking the easy story-telling way out of "I break your neck like a chicken bone."

The weirdest part of MoS is how completely joyless and un-fun the movie is. For all of it's faults, Superman Returns has more fun and wonder in this 1:30 scene than the entire MoS movie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtJ_VSQrW4Y

//and yes, superman logo cellophane trap is stupid


The sequence where Kal learns to fly had a lot of joy in it.
 
2014-04-21 10:30:06 AM  
I'm totally fine with them not using the John Williams Superman March in the movie... but would it not have been perfect music for the end of the movie?
 
2014-04-21 10:30:17 AM  
Look, all you people defending the death and destruction because it's justified in the script are missing the freaking point!  The script did not just appear one day like some divine missive and they were helpless to do anything about it - it was written and re-written to become exactly what it was.  If there was no way to avoid the destruction of Metropolis, if there was no other possible solution except for Superman to kill, it's because the writers made it that way.   That's the problem with the movie.  Completely deliberately, they created a Superman movie where there was massive loss of life and property damage while the hero either couldn't or didn't (depending on how lenient you're willing to be) do anything to stop it, and which culminated in him deliberately taking a life.  The fact that the script was constructed such that "he couldn't do anything else" (if you so believe) is exactly the point.  If you get to that point in your Superman script, and you really, really, can't think of any other way out except death, destruction and darkness, you need to back and start rewriting because you have royally screwed it up.

I'm not saying it needs to be quite as campy as the Christopher Reeves movies, but I shouldn't leave a Superman movie feeling like I need grief counselling for Christ's sake.  For a guy whose symbol supposedly means "hope", he sure didn't do much to inspire any.
 
2014-04-21 10:31:31 AM  

llortcM_yllort: No, Man of Steel sucked because the script was terrible.  I hear a lot of people defending Man of Steel from various criticisms, but I have never heard of a reason the movie was actually good.  What did you like about Man of Steel, because I don't know of anything it did right.

/Seriously, who the fark thought turning the dad into a paranoid nutcase then killing him off in the dumbest way possible was a good idea?


Zach Snyder, who outside of movie openings (and The 300) sucks.
 
2014-04-21 10:32:21 AM  
Nah Zach, I didn't like it because the story was a mess of contradictions and plot holes and the Kryptonians as a whole seemed so pants on head retarded that it's amazing their race was ever able to survive in the first place.  shiat blew up real nice though.
 
2014-04-21 10:34:36 AM  

scottydoesntknow: My biggest complaint was the stupid explanation for the 'S' on his chest. I know it was taken from some of the more modern comics, but that shiat doesn't mean 'Hope', It means Superman.


The notion (weirdly, it came from Brando) in the original Donner Superman was that the chest symbols were clan or family symbols, which is why Brando's character's symbol is also an "S".

So even they recognized it's not an "S", it's something from a completely alien culture that just happens to look like an "S".  I'm sure there's a term for that in linguistics.
 
2014-04-21 10:36:56 AM  
Man of Steel was awesome. I enjoyed watching it. It's not perfect, by any means, but after the Bryan Singer movie, I was asking for more scenes of Superman standing up against an enemy as powerful as he is, and that's exactly what I got.

People complain about Superman being too perfect and having no flaws, but the second a movie presents a Superman with flaws, people go into nerdsplosions. It just goes to show, you can't please us comic book geeks as a community, and that if there's one thing we love, it's being pissed off at stuff when just a slight adjustment could lead to us really enjoying it.
 
2014-04-21 10:40:16 AM  

buntz: Dwight_Yeast: Someone broken like Bruce Wayne
Hate this argument too. Poor kid was an orphan. Lots of other superheroes have MUCH worse lives. Much worse childhoods. Sure it's devastating that he saw his parents killed. But c'mon..... is that justification for this whole life? He still grew up in the lap of luxury. Not like his parents were killed so he was forced to live on the streets and forced to turn into this Batman character.


Some of the most interesting people in the world (both good and bad) are obsessed by one thing.  Those who are born to great wealth are able to indulge these obsessions while those who are not have to either find a way to make their obsessions pay or to keep them as a hobby.

One of the things I find interesting about Batman/Bruce Wayne is that he's still a really interesting, really layered character in spite of all his wealth.  Usually, giving a character unlimited wealth makes them boring, like Daddy Warbucks or Richie Rich.
 
2014-04-21 10:40:30 AM  
Pa Kent's unusual tone and thoughts are pretty much required for a Superman movie in the 21st century. He's a good man at his core, evidenced by his actions saving people during the tornado. He does, however, place protecting his fallen alien son from the omnipresent government and a fearful world above all else. Consider his perspective on his life's events, he married Martha and they had no kids of their own. They find Kal and, as said in the movie, they expect the government to arrive and take him but no one ever did. No child of his own, but one is provided for he and Martha by the stars, and you think he wouldn't consider EVERY option possible to protect it?

He raised Kal right. He never hid from Kal the truth that ultimately Kal would have to choose who to be. What is more solid, the untested "you must be good because I raised you to be good" philosophy of old or the development from early on in life of the notion that being good requires actively CHOOSING to be good?

/love the movie
//modernized Superman mythos for the silver screen
 
2014-04-21 10:45:28 AM  
Man of Steel was obviously better that Superman III or IV (which, I admit, isn't saying much) and I guess I enjoyed it enough...but I saw Superman I the other day, and there is just something about it that works. Was it more innocent? Sure. But that was part of its "gee whiz" charm. It was a superhero movie that aimed at both parents AND children. Man of Steel cannot say the same. It was gloomier, more violent, more serious...

Look, here's the thing that both DC and Chris Nolan don't get (his fingerprints were all over Man of Steel, even if he didn't direct): movies about superheroes are supposed to be FUN. Sure, Dark Knight Rises made a billion dollars, but let's be honest: wasn't most of that residual goodwill left over from Dark Knight? And again, let's be honest: would anyone have cared nearly as much about Dark Knight if Heath Ledger wasn't in it? Outside of him, that was an overlong, over-depressing film. Why so serious?

Dark Knight Rises came out the same summer as, and got beaten by, The Avengers, and there is one reason for this: THE AVENGERS WAS MORE FUN. That movie, as well as most Marvel films, understood that superhero movies are goofy almost by definition. The Avengers picked up that ball and ran with it. I have rarely had more fun watching a movie, and I was never into comic books. Summer movies are supposed to be FUN. Chris Nolan's films may be well-written and well-made, but they are not fun. Now, I get that with Batman. That whole thing has always been kind of moody. But when they did that to Superman, I was annoyed. Zack Snyder is exactly right...I AM clinging the Reeve films...largely because the first two were way better.
 
2014-04-21 10:47:16 AM  
No it's Zach's because that end fight scene was laughable.
Even a farking satellite falls on the city because fighting wasn't enough.

Superman has always been about Hope. Even MoS said it, but there was none.
If you lived on Earth when this Superman arrived, you'd just be sitting around waiting for him to destroy your city from a second hand villain.

/BTW. Kevin Costner. Dumbest. Death scene. Ever.
 
2014-04-21 10:53:38 AM  
My biggest complaint.
Writing disappointment is easy.
Writing hope is hard.
They took the easy, lazy way out.
 
2014-04-21 11:00:55 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: I'm sure there's a term for that in linguistics.


False Friends
 
2014-04-21 11:05:13 AM  

Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back). The only time he really brought the fight to a city was when he lost his shiat when Zod threatened Martha and he hurled him into Smallville. All during the Metropolis fight, Superman was either on the other side of the world trying to disable the World Engine, or was struggling to gain any kind of control of the fight. It was an origin story, so a young and inexperienced Superman isn't going to quickly gain the upper hand.

I rewatched it a couple of times recently on HBO and it really holds together well from a plotting standpoint. There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script, aside from why the Kryptonians would bother changing the environment of Earth to be more like Krypton if it will make them weaker.


Except the in the Smallville battle, there are MILES of cornfields right next to them.  Superman flies over them to get to the Kryptonians.  He throws them into a gas station, dozens of buildings--even a friggin' train depot.  Throw them into the miles of farmland, you idiot!

And Metropolis is right on the water.  A huge ocean to go fight over.  Nah, I think I'll just throw a few more buildings on the guy.  The one time the fight gets taken out of the city, they end up in space and STILL manage to do damage.  (Mind you, while still being able to breathe perfectly fine.  Neither can stand the other's atmosphere for prolonged periods but space?  Oh, no problem there.)

There's no rationale for the extent of damage done in either battle.  It's just Zack Snyder channeling his inner Michael Bay.
 
2014-04-21 11:05:20 AM  

Hebalo: The sequence where Kal learns to fly had a lot of joy in it.


That was a very small sequence in the middle of a long, largely dreary movie.  The movie needed much more of that.

Owangotang: Pa Kent's unusual tone and thoughts are pretty much required for a Superman movie in the 21st century. He's a good man at his core, evidenced by his actions saving people during the tornado.


Yeah, that part didn't bother me the way it did some people, mainly because the delivery on "...maybe" made it clear he was very conflicted and knew it wasn't the right answer, but he just didn't have a better one.  For the first time, his greatest fear was on the verge of becoming a reality, and he was terrified for the life and safety of his son.  He knew Clark couldn't let all those kids die, but he also couldn't -- yet -- bring himself to accept the idea that Clark should put himself at risk.  Up until that point it hadn't been an issue - the priority was on keeping the secret and in doing so, keeping Clark safe.  The situation where Clark had to choose between revealing himself and letting people die hadn't come up before.  And like most parents, he was slow to realize his son was growing up and he hadn't yet come around to the idea that he needed to stop trying to protect Clark as a child and start teaching him how to use his powers wisely as an adult.
 
2014-04-21 11:08:58 AM  

James Rieper: Frank Miller didn't make Superman go dark.

How is Frank Miller able to grasp this point of character and Zack Snyder isn't?  It's like it's opposite day.


Screw Miller. Miller's Superman in The Dark Knight Returns is the ultimate example of someone treating Supes as the ultimate boy scout. Superman is treated as an unquestioning tool of those in power, the good little soldier who only decides not to kill Batman and instead pretend to fall for Batman's faked death because of their history and because Batman convinces him that he needs to question authority.

Superman has never accepted laws or authorities who he feels are not acting on behalf of the people supposedly served by them and has killed when pushed to a point he feels it is necessary. Snyder's Superman is problematic at times, but Miller's caricature is much worse.
 
2014-04-21 11:16:05 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Never has a headline been more accurate.


This.
 
2014-04-21 11:17:31 AM  
I really like MoS.  I didn't get to watch it and read all the hate and when I finally saw it. It became one of my favorite super hero movies of all time.

I caught it again on HBO recently and liked it even more.

I can't wait for the next movie and hope one day to get a decent GL movie too.

Although, I'll still watch the Ryan renoulds one of I see it on every once in awhile.

The second GL had the possibility to be greatish, ok good-ish.
 
2014-04-21 11:23:13 AM  

chewielouie: ToastmasterGeneral: Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.

Yep.

Good for nostalgia only.

Yes, and Peter Jackson's King Kong was better than the 1933 version. You kids today, it takes more than splosions to make a good movie. Sorry, but Batman was 100% correct, "Man of Steel . . . was uninspiring."


Oh, I was the original Superman movies' target audience, and greatly loved them as a kid.  But that doesn't change the fact that they're highly dated, and flawed movies.

Christopher Reeve does a great job as Superman.  He's fine in the bumbling Kent role, but I've always found that to be a pointless portrayal.  If the only reason for Clark Kent is to be a klutzy disguise, then why not give up on him, entirely?  Clark Kent doesn't need to be dashing, but he needs to be an actual character, and not just a disguise.  That's who Kal-El grew up as.  That's why he wants to help the humans.

As for the non-explosion movies:  the first one is clearly the best, but not with much.  Hackman's Luthor is a fairly ridiculous villan, but there's not much there.  Lex doesn't have superpowers, so his main threat is his intellect, and yet the only interaction between the main villian and the hero is one brief meeting with a hidden rock in a lead box?  And then ne pulls the James Bond villian, elaborate-death-scene-that-I'm-totally-going-to-leave-you-alone move.  Then the real main tension is whether Superman's fast enough to get to both missiles in time.  He isn't.  Except, then the deus ex machina of him being much faster, so that he could reverse time.  It was a good movie for what it was, but it doesn't hold up.

Superman II - Uh, better villans, intriguing concepts, but Lester's campiness ruins whatever might've made it the better movie.  Highly unwatchable scenes.  Though, Reeve's "Oh, I've been working out" and then knowing look to the camera almost makes it worth it.

Superman III - Superman vs. Clark is intriguing.  The rest of the movie is beyond dated.  Superman missile video game interface with Pac Man sound effects?  Next.

Superman IV - Nuclear Man?  Nuclear Man.

In closing, the originals do not hold up well at all.

But I will give you, the Hishe bits are hilarious.  Hilarious, because he's Batman.
 
2014-04-21 11:25:22 AM  

Grungehamster: James Rieper: Frank Miller didn't make Superman go dark.

How is Frank Miller able to grasp this point of character and Zack Snyder isn't?  It's like it's opposite day.

Screw Miller. Miller's Superman in The Dark Knight Returns is the ultimate example of someone treating Supes as the ultimate boy scout. Superman is treated as an unquestioning tool of those in power, the good little soldier who only decides not to kill Batman and instead pretend to fall for Batman's faked death because of their history and because Batman convinces him that he needs to question authority.

Superman has never accepted laws or authorities who he feels are not acting on behalf of the people supposedly served by them and has killed when pushed to a point he feels it is necessary. Snyder's Superman is problematic at times, but Miller's caricature is much worse.


That's the point.  Superman adheres to his principles.  Miller makes fun of that stance for the obvious reasons, but he gets that is a core component of this character.

I'd disagree with the presentation of Superman as "unquestioning" there though.  That's why when Batman starts pushing Superman's buttons, it hurts.
 
2014-04-21 11:30:56 AM  

Mugato: Judging a 34 year old movie by its visuals is retarded.


Yes, it is.  And that's the point.
Idiots today can't do anything but that, they have no idea what makes a good story. They can't fathom anything that doesn't include 90% crappy CGI.

Reeves Superman was, and is, liked because he portrays the actual character.
The "new" superman movies lack an audience not because he's "realistic", it's because he sucks.
There is nothing, at all, of Superman in MoS. Nothing.

Things become Icons for a reason.
If you then change those things, people are no linger going to like it.
It's not hard to understand.  Snyder is probably even capable of understanding it, though he would have to pull his head out and try to think.
 
2014-04-21 11:38:02 AM  
It was the shakey-cam.

That's why the movie suck so farking hard.

Who filmed it, Michael J. Fox?
 
2014-04-21 11:41:42 AM  

buntz: imfallen_angel: You mean the part where he strip them of their powers and have them picked up by the local authorities?

wasn't in the theatrical release, therefore I don't accept it as "canon"

In the movie WE saw, he threw them in a dark, possibly bottomless, pit.

Unless we're too assume he has some mattresses down there


You didn't know? Superman was constructing a theme park down there and he was just testing it with Zod and the rest. That was a Goonies style fun slide.
 
2014-04-21 11:48:37 AM  

ferretman: I liked it.....but then anything, even Superman III, would be better than the abortion that was 'Superman Returns'.


What's funny is Returns was made for the nostalgia crowd, which is precisely why it sucked.  Snyders film had its issues but at least he was willing to go in a new direction and I enjoyed a lot more than I thought I would.
 
2014-04-21 12:03:40 PM  
tobaccotimeline.files.wordpress.com

img2.timeinc.net

Haters gonna hate.
 
2014-04-21 12:20:32 PM  

Sybarite: These two were my favorite part.

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]


Antje Traue can kick my ass any day she wants.

www.nylonguysmag.com
 
2014-04-21 12:23:38 PM  
Christopher Reeves was better in Somewhere in Time and Deathtrap.

Man of Steel was great. I don't know why at least one Kryptonian didn't snark that Clark was just wearing his underwear.  Nobody is talking about that as far as I know.
 
2014-04-21 12:26:34 PM  

Heron: hey were embarrassing to watch when they were made. Man of Steel was still terrible though; got's nothing to do with Reeve or the older movies. The writing was dumb; the philosophy was not just dumb and wrong but actively bad; the acting was wooden; and the attempt to make the Supes property "edgy", "angsty", and "dark" was unnecessary and frankly misses the entire point of the character. Changing Superman from an earnest, hardworking achiever deeply involved in his(adopted) community and with a heart so big he went into journalism so he could fight in print the injustices he can't legally punch to bits, into a Nietzschean loner demi-god detached from human society and sent purposely to awe humanity into submission undermines not only what makes Supes great and the message he was always written to convey, but also transforms his father from a far-sighted, lone moral voice against the excesses and arrogance of the Kyptonian elite into a mere proponent of their galaxy-wide outrages and chauvinistic racism by different means.

Man of Steel just completely misses the point, repeatedly. The CG for the action sequences was pretty sweet though.


Great post. Too bad its wrong. The Nietzschean loner Demigod is what I WANT to see. Its the only way the character is interesting. No one wants to see a "big blue boyscout", as bats calls him.

Also, Chris Reeve DOES appear in the movie when he's flying up to the world machine. Its only a frame or 10. He's there though...and it was touching.

/needs to be watched fram by frame...then its obvious.
 
2014-04-21 12:31:12 PM  

Fano: He's not the Superman of All-Star Superman or Justice League, so his argument is invalid.

Paging PiptheTroll, noted Supermanologist to supesplain to the director.


I have a confession to make. My name is Pip_the_Troll and I'm a Man of Steel Apologist.

Or at least I was.

I did enjoy the movie and there were some parts of it I felt were really great. But as a whole... I don't have it in me to defend it anymore. They say time heals all wounds, but it hasn't healed this one. That movie was such a let down.

I had a shocking revelation recently. Somehow, I'd totally missed the "Adventures of Superman" series that just ended. It simply didn't show up on my radar - prolly because I've been avoiding most of DC since the nu-52 crap.

Oh my God, is that a great series. Nearly every single issue is a beautifully crafted love letter to Superman.

Everybody says it's hard to write Superman stories because he's so powerful and such a good guy. As the learned gentleman pointed out above, superheroes need to be flawed. They're better when they're 'broken', like Batman.

I call bullshiat.

You can write amazing stories for Superman. You just need to understand the character.

Consider one of the aforementioned "Adventures of Superman" issues.

Superman saves a guy that deliberately throws himself off a building, wearing a Superman tshirt. He later saves the same guy throwing himself off a bridge. He comes to discover that this nutjob is part of something called "The Church of Superman", a blog started by a kid and exploited by her parents for money. Now there's hundreds of these people standing on buildings all over Metropolis. All getting ready to throw themselves off as a form of worship - to prove that Superman is a god when he saves them. He begs and pleads with them, tells them he's not a god and he can't save them all. They don't believe them. So he arranges to have himself beaten bloody by a fake Metallo created by Star Labs so they would lose their faith in his ability to save them all. They look down at him from their perches, broken and bloody and step down, saving themselves.

That's Superman.
 
2014-04-21 12:34:07 PM  
Man of Steel was crap. If Clark went to talk to his holodad after Zod showed up instead of the priest, he would have learned that the Codex was in his cells and how to use his pod to send the Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zone. MoS is the kind of movie where a man who never threw a punch in his life can beat Krypton's top general in a fight and a reporter can gun down genetically-bred soldiers without breaking a sweat.
 
2014-04-21 12:37:08 PM  
ExcedrinHeadache:

People complain about Superman being too perfect and having no flaws, but the second a movie presents a Superman with flaws, people go into nerdsplosions.

I think those are two different groups of people, though.
 
2014-04-21 12:43:48 PM  

Owangotang: Pa Kent's unusual tone and thoughts are pretty much required for a Superman movie in the 21st century. He's a good man at his core, evidenced by his actions saving people during the tornado. He does, however, place protecting his fallen alien son from the omnipresent government and a fearful world above all else. Consider his perspective on his life's events, he married Martha and they had no kids of their own. They find Kal and, as said in the movie, they expect the government to arrive and take him but no one ever did. No child of his own, but one is provided for he and Martha by the stars, and you think he wouldn't consider EVERY option possible to protect it?

He raised Kal right. He never hid from Kal the truth that ultimately Kal would have to choose who to be. What is more solid, the untested "you must be good because I raised you to be good" philosophy of old or the development from early on in life of the notion that being good requires actively CHOOSING to be good?


THIS... as evidenced in the scene when Clark goes to talk to the preacher. The backdrop is a stained glass window image of Christ nailed to a cross.  Humans don't treat their heroes well.
 
2014-04-21 12:46:36 PM  
I laughed out loud during certain parts of the "fight scene" in Man of Steel because of the sheer audacity and stupidity of it.  The moment when he gets thrown through a train, which promptly explodes, was the height of silliness, and, like The Avengers, the newest wave of explosion porn, where audiences don't really need to think about why th--  POW!  KABANG! KABOOM!
 
2014-04-21 01:00:19 PM  
Remember when Superman stole those clothes, and when he ruined that trucker's livelihood and destroyed his property in broad daylight without anyone noticing?  I'm all for changing stuff around, getting dark, serious, real, flawed, ect.

But the nerd in me draws the line at Pa Kent's advice.

Pa Kent is never going to answer "maybe" to the question "Should Clark stand by and let innocent people die in order to protect his own self interests?"
 
2014-04-21 01:03:07 PM  

Sybarite: These two were my favorite part.

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]


yep

mjones73: Antje Traue can kick my ass any day she wants.


amen


The true star of MOS:

img838.imageshack.us
 
2014-04-21 01:05:07 PM  
Yep, pretty much. I never liked Donner's version, and I loved Man of Steel.
 
2014-04-21 01:05:43 PM  

thatguyoverthere70: Remember when Superman stole those clothes, and when he ruined that trucker's livelihood and destroyed his property in broad daylight without anyone noticing?  I'm all for changing stuff around, getting dark, serious, real, flawed, ect.

But the nerd in me draws the line at Pa Kent's advice.

Pa Kent is never going to answer "maybe" to the question "Should Clark stand by and let innocent people die in order to protect his own self interests?"


I had trouble with that as well. But then he goes running to help during the tornado. I'm guessing Papa Kent was just trying to get his son to think about it, and then come to the answer himself.
 
2014-04-21 01:08:26 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.


You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboardAlways taking care not to break something, to break someoneNever allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid across the city with a single blow]
 
2014-04-21 01:10:41 PM  
I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.
 
2014-04-21 01:13:55 PM  
Glad to see a Man of Steel thread with a good number of people who liked it. Some days I've felt like I've been taking crazy pills, what with all the nerdrage over it.

Man of Steel was fantastic. Yes they fought in the city because Superman didn't have a farking choice in the matter. Zoe and his flunkies were explicitly there to kill everyone. What was Superman supposed to do - hurl super-curses at them from outside the city while they laughed at him and completed their plan, killing everyone, from inside of it? That makes no damn sense... Zoe and company would just stay inside the city and win.
 
2014-04-21 01:14:32 PM  

jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.


I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.
 
2014-04-21 01:15:27 PM  
Mad_Radhu:I rewatched it a couple of times recently on HBO and it really holds together well from a plotting standpoint.

No it doesn't.

Why?

Because you had to watch it 5 farking times, that's why.

The movie was 1 1/2 hours of invincible asshats throwing each other through buildings and then for no real good reason, they hop on a ship and fly away. Rinse repeat.

All of the exploding shiat gave me a headache. This coming from a guy that does 3D particle VFX for a living.
 
2014-04-21 01:20:51 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.

You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid across the city wit ...


World of Cardboard for the win....
 
2014-04-21 01:21:45 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.


Nonsense. Batman is Superman. He never gets shot and has unlimited resources because he's a perfect billionaire. In Dark Knight 1 & 2 he can fly, in Dark Knight he has x-ray vision. How does Batman win every time? He planned ahead while everyone else was sitting on their thumbs. The only reason Batman and Iron Man aren't boring is because Americans are obsessed with the dream of being wealthy.
 
2014-04-21 01:22:04 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: Confabulat: Man of Steel was a better Superman movie than any of the Reeve flicks. They are embarrassing to watch in 2014.

Sorry, but no. Man of Steel was ok, but it failed to make me care about a single character in the movie. Pa Kent dies, meh. Ma Kent get's threatened, oh well. Lois's life is in danger, so what? Hell I found myself barely caring about Supes, much less anyone else in the flick. The characters just seemed flat to me.


I feel the same. I didn't get what Superman saw in Lois Lane in this movie except that she just happened to be around a lot when shiat hit the fan. It was clearly a case of the director/writer going, "Well, the audience already knows they're supposed to get together so who cares."
 
2014-04-21 01:22:53 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.

You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid across the city wit ...


that or the earlier episode where Superman is baited into fighting Captain Marvel.

does no one else have a problem with Superman leaving Smallville with one assumes a mere high school diploma, then manages to do heat vision surgery on Lois Lane, while not leaving a mark on her?  you'd think she'd have a cauterized hole in her abdomen, that she could show Perry White later when he accuses her of hallucinating.   Zack Snyder should go back to making music videos. All his films make as much as sense a 5 year old playing with their toys.  meaning...NONE.
 
2014-04-21 01:24:54 PM  

RyansPrivates: RoyFokker'sGhost: Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.

You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid a ...


World of Cardboard for the win...

/now with link hotness
//or hotty linkness
 
2014-04-21 01:25:34 PM  

RyansPrivates: RoyFokker'sGhost: Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.

You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid a ...


Oh god, not the world of cardboard. That's the saddest retcon I've ever seen. "All those times I winced in pain and fell backwards during this 200 episode series? I was faking it. So what if millions of lives depended on me using my full capacity? I wanted to look weak so I could headfake a single buff alien who wears a skirt."
 
2014-04-21 01:29:08 PM  
It would have been a billion times better if he'd fought a giant spider at the end
 
2014-04-21 01:30:02 PM  

RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: RoyFokker'sGhost: Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.

You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Pun ...


Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero.

/"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"
 
2014-04-21 01:32:29 PM  
Wow, no Zack.  "Superman Returns" should've clued you in to the fact that a lot of people were tired of Reeve/Donner Superman.

The fact that the story was about as good as Geoff Johns' current run (read: total suck) should've clued you in that MoS wasn't going to be the blockbuster you thought it should've been.
 
2014-04-21 01:33:40 PM  
Face it.
If you hated Donner's first two and loved Man of Steel, you don't know who Superman was and never really cared or read comics.
You can say I'm wrong, but I'm not.
 
2014-04-21 01:34:05 PM  
Hey, Zack... fark you. That work for ya?
 
2014-04-21 01:35:09 PM  

clkeagle: Except that nobody is complainibg about Henry Cavill's performance. He did a great job with the material he was given.

Just like Reeve did.


And, to be honest, Brandon Routh as well.  Not his fault "SR" was (at best) mediocre.
 
2014-04-21 01:35:29 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"


Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...
 
2014-04-21 01:35:57 PM  

Rwa2play: clkeagle: Except that nobody is complainibg about Henry Cavill's performance. He did a great job with the material he was given.

Just like Reeve did.

And, to be honest, Brandon Routh as well.  Not his fault "SR" was (at best) mediocre.


Superman Returns remains the only movie that I actually fell asleep in. It was just soooo boring.
 
2014-04-21 01:35:57 PM  
I enjoyed it, girlfriend hated it.
 
2014-04-21 01:36:05 PM  

Geoff Peterson: Man of Steel is a good flick, holds up with the others in this day and age, and has the proper tone. Haters are just regurgitating shiat they hear on the Internet. Like someone said above, I re watched it on HBO, and none of the usual criticisms of this movie really hold any weight....and especially DERP METROPOLIS one. To quote the girl (whatever her name was) "when you save one, we'll kill a million"

(or something close to that). so yeah....no...he had to fight in the city.


Except for Pa Kent dying in the most retarded way imaginable.
 
2014-04-21 01:39:30 PM  

Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.


Pretty gawddamn much; it's one thing to ask people to have a level of disbelief when watching a movie and then completely do something stupid to throw that trust out the window.

And I say this as someone that's seen JL:U and continue to shake my head at the utter incompetence and retarded corporate mindset that the higher-ups at DC/WB continue to show.
 
2014-04-21 01:42:59 PM  

ToastmasterGeneral: Superman IV - Nuclear Man?  Nuclear Man.


No, not Nuclear Man...the scenes of him flying look like they should've been in the 70s.

Seriously, I took one look at that and said "WTF?!" out loud; whoever threatened Chris Reeve's career over him not being Superman for that movie should've been blackballed himself.
 
2014-04-21 01:44:24 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid across the city with a single blow]


All of this right farking here.  That final episode in JLU was light years better than MoS.  Light.  Years.  MoS wasn't fit to smell the shiat of that scene.
 
2014-04-21 01:47:20 PM  
Meh. It was ok. It just wasn't on the level of awesomeness that any of the Marvel Cinematic movies have been, and we were all hoping it would be.

Pa Kent sacrificing himself to a tornado was the major problem I had with the plot. Another Farker pointed out that the movie was about Clark Kent learning to be human and that Pa Kent sacrificing himself was a lesson he had to learn about not being able to save everyone (as a human). While that sounds... ok... it's still a stupid reason to let him die when he didn't have to.

And the music was typical droning Hans Zimmer boring stuff. He used to be great in the 90s (Broken Arrow was great). But now, meh. If only they had included John Williams theme in some form (even Superman Returns did that), because it felt like it was missing. Otherwise, it was ok. But mostly forgettable.
 
2014-04-21 01:47:50 PM  
For greatest Superman comic one-shot stories, look at Starman 75, and Hitman 34. Written from the prospective of reluctant heroes who idolize Superman.

img2.wikia.nocookie.net

http://www.shwiggie.com/hitman/hm-34/
 
2014-04-21 01:48:39 PM  

Stratohead: jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.

I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.


Yeah...I'm sorry but I can't buy MoS even being campy...and I want DC to succeed but good god almighty don't take a giant intellectual dump on your audience and expect people not to raise a stink about it.
 
2014-04-21 01:49:17 PM  

ThatBillmanGuy: Meh. It was ok. It just wasn't on the level of awesomeness that any of the Marvel Cinematic movies have been, and we were all hoping it would be.

Pa Kent sacrificing himself to a tornado was the major problem I had with the plot. Another Farker pointed out that the movie was about Clark Kent learning to be human and that Pa Kent sacrificing himself was a lesson he had to learn about not being able to save everyone (as a human). While that sounds... ok... it's still a stupid reason to let him die when he didn't have to.

And the music was typical droning Hans Zimmer boring stuff. He used to be great in the 90s (Broken Arrow was great). But now, meh. If only they had included John Williams theme in some form (even Superman Returns did that), because it felt like it was missing. Otherwise, it was ok. But mostly forgettable.


Another one I thought about was how stupid it was for Kal El to reveal exactly how to get over the sensory overload that the enemies were experiencing.

You have Zod, overwhelmed and writhing on the ground, and you tell him to FOCUS?! What a buffoon.
 
2014-04-21 01:50:12 PM  

RyansPrivates: scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"

Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...


Those two features showed me that DCA "get it" and whoever's in charge of DCE doesn't get one fark of the characters.
 
2014-04-21 01:52:46 PM  

ThatBillmanGuy: Meh. It was ok. It just wasn't on the level of awesomeness that any of the Marvel Cinematic movies have been, and we were all hoping it would be.

Pa Kent sacrificing himself to a tornado was the major problem I had with the plot. Another Farker pointed out that the movie was about Clark Kent learning to be human and that Pa Kent sacrificing himself was a lesson he had to learn about not being able to save everyone (as a human). While that sounds... ok... it's still a stupid reason to let him die when he didn't have to.


All it takes is a simple change in the script:  Instead of Pa Kent telling his son not to do it, Clark should've been saving someone from a distance, the tornado takes an unexpected turn and veers right into the path of Pa, he can't escape and gets swept up.  By the time Clark realizes what's happened it's too late, gets Pa out...but he dies in Clark's arms.
 
2014-04-21 01:56:19 PM  

Rwa2play: ThatBillmanGuy: Meh. It was ok. It just wasn't on the level of awesomeness that any of the Marvel Cinematic movies have been, and we were all hoping it would be.

Pa Kent sacrificing himself to a tornado was the major problem I had with the plot. Another Farker pointed out that the movie was about Clark Kent learning to be human and that Pa Kent sacrificing himself was a lesson he had to learn about not being able to save everyone (as a human). While that sounds... ok... it's still a stupid reason to let him die when he didn't have to.

All it takes is a simple change in the script:  Instead of Pa Kent telling his son not to do it, Clark should've been saving someone from a distance, the tornado takes an unexpected turn and veers right into the path of Pa, he can't escape and gets swept up.  By the time Clark realizes what's happened it's too late, gets Pa out...but he dies in Clark's arms.


Yeah, that would fit better.
 
2014-04-21 01:57:14 PM  

Stratohead: jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.

I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.


The only thing moronic here is the over-analysis of a comic book action movie.

Get a life nerds, ffs.

*Then* maybe you'll stop expecting farking reality to be brought to you in a comic book movie.

You aren't peer reviewing a doctoral thesis. It's a movie about a guy in tights that flies and shoots laser beams from his head.


/old school super fan
//loved the old version and the new
///that one with Kevin Spacey was kinda suckage, but only because of lighting/atmosphere and being so muted and anticlimactic
 
2014-04-21 01:57:18 PM  
The problem w/ Man of Steel was there was no farking Clark Kent. It's Kal-El the space alien trying to figure out how to pretend to be a human. Chris Reeves was Clark Kent, a good mama's boy from Kansas who gets a crush on the fast talking big city reporter, who also happens to be able to fly and is invulnerable. Clark Kent is a more interesting character than Kal-El, period. Kal-El is boring, and weird, and emo, and doesn't enjoy his time around Lois, he's just constantly nervous about her safety.
 
2014-04-21 01:57:56 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Superman tried throwing Zod out into space, Zod fought his way back


Get farked. It was Superman who carried Zod away from a remote cornfield and into Smallville.
 
2014-04-21 01:58:43 PM  
www.shwiggie.com
 
2014-04-21 02:00:56 PM  
old movies are old.

new movies are awesome.
 
2014-04-21 02:08:09 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: [www.shwiggie.com image 490x762]


Wow, nice one.
 
2014-04-21 02:09:01 PM  

Rwa2play: Kangaroo_Ralph: [www.shwiggie.com image 490x762]

Wow, nice one.


That issue won an award.  You can read the whole thing here: http://www.shwiggie.com/hitman/hm-34/
 
2014-04-21 02:09:30 PM  
Zombie DJ: No it's Zach's because that end fight scene was laughable.
Even a farking satellite falls on the city because fighting wasn't enough.


This.  Soooo many scenes of buildings....planes....EVERYTHING being completely annihilated over and over again.  Tiresome.

And then when they finally send Zod's followers back into a black hole, Zod starts ranting about Kal-El destroyeing his soul, etc.  And I think "Good, he's working his way up to killing himself, right?"  Wrong!  So we get more farkin' scenes of buildings, etc. being completely annihilated, yadda ya culminating in Superman breaking Zod's neck and killing him!

Not right.  Just....not....right.

Superman has always been about Hope. Even MoS said it, but there was none.
If you lived on Earth when this Superman arrived, you'd just be sitting around waiting for him to destroy your city from a second hand villain.


THIS.

/BTW. Kevin Costner. Dumbest. Death scene. Ever.

THIS times a google.

The best characterization of Superman I've seen has been Bruce Timm's Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited.  There's nothing in The Man of Steel movie that has made me change my mind.
 
2014-04-21 02:16:03 PM  

browneye: The best characterization of Superman I've seen has been Bruce Timm's Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, and Justice League Unlimited.  There's nothing in The Man of Steel movie that has made me change my mind.


This.
 
2014-04-21 02:23:32 PM  

MurphyMurphy: Stratohead: jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.

I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.

The only thing moronic here is the over-analysis of a comic book action movie.

Get a life nerds, ffs.

*Then* maybe you'll stop expecting farking reality to be brought to you in a comic book movie.

You aren't peer reviewing a doctoral thesis. It's a movie about a guy in tights that flies and shoots laser beams from his head.


/old school super fan
//loved the old version and the new
///that one with Kevin Spacey was kinda suckage, but only because of lighting/atmosphere and being so muted and anticlimactic


Oh, "FFS." It's just a comic book movie. You aren't watching Citizen Kane.
 
2014-04-21 02:29:47 PM  
Although I do wonder how much of this is CG Henry Cavil, nevertheless, does look better without a shirt than any other Superman on film.

starcasm.net
 
2014-04-21 02:32:50 PM  
Whatever you think of Man of Steel, you have to admit that Kevin Costner's death scene was one of the most ridiculous, hilarious deaths ever filmed.

Singer's Superman flick was kinda goofy, but was an all around better movie.

Reeve all the way-the guy could act, and balanced the characteristics of human and hero perfectly.  Cavill can't act.


//couple years later the world knows who Superman is.
 
2014-04-21 02:34:32 PM  

browneye: Although I do wonder how much of this is CG Henry Cavil, nevertheless, does look better without a shirt than any other Superman on film.

[starcasm.net image 720x420]


Apparently that was all Cavil. People were so shocked at how jacked he got that some speculated he was roiding. He (and everyone else associated with it) vehemently denied that and said he just worked out like a monster.
 
2014-04-21 02:34:37 PM  
Rwa2play:

Except for Pa Kent dying in the most retarded way imaginable.

YES
 
2014-04-21 02:34:39 PM  

MurphyMurphy: Stratohead: jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.

I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.

The only thing moronic here is the over-analysis of a comic book action movie.

Get a life nerds, ffs.

*Then* maybe you'll stop expecting farking reality to be brought to you in a comic book movie.

You aren't peer reviewing a doctoral thesis. It's a movie about a guy in tights that flies and shoots laser beams from his head.


/old school super fan
//loved the old version and the new
///that one with Kevin Spacey was kinda suckage, but only because of lighting/atmosphere and being so muted and anticlimactic


What's funny is the movies everyone loses their minds gushing over(Avengers, Dark Knight) are also riddled with gaping plot holes.  The only thing more annoying than fanboi rage is selective fanboi rage.
 
2014-04-21 02:36:05 PM  

Flappyhead: MurphyMurphy: Stratohead: jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.

I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.

The only thing moronic here is the over-analysis of a comic book action movie.

Get a life nerds, ffs.

*Then* maybe you'll stop expecting farking reality to be brought to you in a comic book movie.

You aren't peer reviewing a doctoral thesis. It's a movie about a guy in tights that flies and shoots laser beams from his head.


/old school super fan
//loved the old version and the new
///that one with Kevin Spacey was kinda suckage, but only because of lighting/atmosphere and being so muted and anticlimactic

What's funny is the movies everyone loses their minds gushing over(Avengers, Dark Knight) are also riddled with gaping plot holes.  The only thing more annoying than fanboi rage is selective fanboi rage.


It's because the characters are better-the actors are better-and the writing is better.  People want good performances, and will forgive some plot holes, as long as there is a beginning and end.
 
2014-04-21 02:37:22 PM  
Nice way to deflect criticism of your movie. "It was his fault people didn't like it!" Zack Snyder is never going to improve as a storyteller with this attitude. He can't get much worse either so he's just going to stagnate and keep making the same old shiat. I can't stand this guy. It's made worse by the powers that be constantly throwing established IPs at him. Suckerpunch is his best movie simply because it didn't shiat on anyone else's creation.

MoS would have sucked whether it was Superman or an original character. It just wasn't a good movie. Flat characters, go-nowhere thematic elements, cheap, false emotionality, boring, monochrome, shakycam garbage.
 
2014-04-21 02:43:23 PM  

scottydoesntknow: browneye: Although I do wonder how much of this is CG Henry Cavil, nevertheless, does look better without a shirt than any other Superman on film.

[starcasm.net image 720x420]

Apparently that was all Cavil. People were so shocked at how jacked he got that some speculated he was roiding. He (and everyone else associated with it) vehemently denied that and said he just worked out like a monster.


Its in the special features of the bluray that for that one shot his body fat percentage was like 3.5% He had to work out like crazy for the entire movie but that one shot was some crazy shiat that had to be done to show he's a muscular guy. Zack rewarded him by giving a whole pizza after that.

I think the criticism's on Man Of steel are definitely warranted and it's been beaten to death what people hate and like about the movie. I enjoyed it and completely accept all its flaws, I wasn't very convinced about Pa Kent's motivations at all. I couldn't relate to anything he said or did. They could definitely have toned down the CG on the destruction. While the stunts and action was excellent it was overdone.


Even with that I enjoyed the rest of the movie. Also Man of steel was the best honest trailers video you'll ever see, I laugh every single time even though I love the movie and own it on bluray.
 
2014-04-21 02:58:59 PM  

noheadphones: Flappyhead: MurphyMurphy: Stratohead: jjorsett: I liked the Man of Steel movie better. I thought its plotline and character motivations were a lot more coherent than the original films.

I'm guessing you enjoy driving massively large trucks through Grand Canyon sized holes in much the same way this film plows through its enormous plot holes, the 7th fleet takes on your mom.


/Seriously..."Man of Steel" is moronic.

The only thing moronic here is the over-analysis of a comic book action movie.

Get a life nerds, ffs.

*Then* maybe you'll stop expecting farking reality to be brought to you in a comic book movie.

You aren't peer reviewing a doctoral thesis. It's a movie about a guy in tights that flies and shoots laser beams from his head.


/old school super fan
//loved the old version and the new
///that one with Kevin Spacey was kinda suckage, but only because of lighting/atmosphere and being so muted and anticlimactic

What's funny is the movies everyone loses their minds gushing over(Avengers, Dark Knight) are also riddled with gaping plot holes.  The only thing more annoying than fanboi rage is selective fanboi rage.

It's because the characters are better-the actors are better-and the writing is better.  People want good performances, and will forgive some plot holes, as long as there is a beginning and end.


pretty much THIS... they at least keep consistent within their own internal logic.  They don't introduce elements into the plot to justify some other nonsensical point, only to have either ignore it, or create and even more retarded rationalization ...  MoS starts out with a big hole...and just keeps digging deeper and deeper.

Nothing in MoS makes any sense under the barest of scrutiny using the alphabet the FILM gives us to read.
The planets dying...so lets waste one of the few ships we have left giving it to the convicted criminals...they are dangerous so be sure to give them weapons before we put them in the "phantom zone" that surely won't fail as soon as Krypton explodes...oops...they destroyed their planet build ships and "world engines" to make countless colonies on other planets...that exist solely to justify having a ship already on earth and the big "world engine" only to have an "act III"...but all the colonies conveniently just died out the second Krypton exploded? LOL WUT TF?  and let me get this straight... Zods only pissed at Superman because he was a "natural birth" and he is willing to kill all humanity because having asthma for a few years is to much of a hassle? You on some sort of timetable? where you got to be?  and most importantly of all... thank god Zod has to turn his ENTIRE farkING HEAD to aim his "heat vision".
 
2014-04-21 03:03:22 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.


They don't show that episode on TV anymore.....it ends with 'Part I'.... :(
 
2014-04-21 03:06:05 PM  
myhollywooddream.com
 
2014-04-21 03:12:06 PM  
no, Man of Steel was boring and lacked any sense of FUN whatsoever
 
2014-04-21 03:22:40 PM  

Mega Steve: It would have been a billion times better if he'd fought a giant spider at the end


Did you know that spiders are one of the deadliest killing machines in the animal kingdom?

/and needed more polar bear razzling
 
2014-04-21 03:30:13 PM  

scottydoesntknow: basemetal: Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.

Captain America 2 would like a word with you ($586M worldwide).

Mediocre superhero flicks have been way over done, and DC just can't seem to figure out what to do with its property.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Marvel figured out a formula and it's working very well.


After devouring both seasons of Young Justice in one weekend I'd somewhat agree and disagree.

They can't figure out how to make movies for shiat. They seem to do amazing jobs with the animation.
But I think it might be more because of the cast: a lot of smaller, B list heroes, who have to struggle and fight and grow, rather than just having godlike powers. It's really just boring to watch Superman emo-angst about things when he is a literal god.

It was awesome to watch superboy struggle with stuff, and angst a bit, because he couldn't just 'stop holding himself down at 1% of his strength' and bump it to 1.5% to win.

Same really goes for Flash, Green Lantern, Batman, and the other A listers. Sure, Dark Knight/etc with Bale showed us it can be done well. It's just harder.

/anyone recommend something as good as young justice?
//printed or film, doesn't matter
///also enjoyed the previous Teen Titans show
 
2014-04-21 03:36:06 PM  
Anyone else sick of "this" as a response, even when they agree with the thing the "this" is "this"-ing?

/THIS
//THIS
///THIS
 
2014-04-21 03:39:18 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Sybarite: These two were my favorite part.

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]

yep

mjones73: Antje Traue can kick my ass any day she wants.

amen


The true star of MOS:

[img838.imageshack.us image 850x478]


I think more pics are needed.
 
2014-04-21 03:44:29 PM  

kroonermanblack: scottydoesntknow: basemetal: Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.

Captain America 2 would like a word with you ($586M worldwide).

Mediocre superhero flicks have been way over done, and DC just can't seem to figure out what to do with its property.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Marvel figured out a formula and it's working very well.

After devouring both seasons of Young Justice in one weekend I'd somewhat agree and disagree.

They can't figure out how to make movies for shiat. They seem to do amazing jobs with the animation.
But I think it might be more because of the cast: a lot of smaller, B list heroes, who have to struggle and fight and grow, rather than just having godlike power
s. It's really just boring to watch Superman emo-angst about things when he is a literal god.

It was awesome to watch superboy struggle with stuff, and angst a bit, because he couldn't just 'stop holding himself down at 1% of his strength' and bump it to 1.5% to win.

Same really goes for Flash, Green Lantern, Batman, and the other A listers. Sure, Dark Knight/etc with Bale showed us it can be done well. It's just harder.

/anyone recommend something as good as young justice?
//printed or film, doesn't matter
///also enjoyed the previous Teen Titans show


THIS....er wait.... I agree.

Young justice was pretty good, I enjoyed that take on it (set on the New 52's earth-16, supposedly).  Really liked the whole Roy/Speedy/Arsenal angle.

Am also enjoying Arrow which is still better then AoS (though AoS is showing some promise).  The new Flash may end up being interesting, since it is from the same team.  Goes back to my whole view:  Marvel:Movies::DC:Television(including animation)

Marvel is getting better on TV, but in the same way that DC did with the Nolan Batman movies: we may see a trend starting, but too early tell.
 
2014-04-21 03:45:20 PM  
kroonermanblack:

/anyone recommend something as good as young justice? printed or film, doesn't matter

Cartoon:
Tron: Uprising... great story and voice-acting. It takes a few episodes to get into it.
Star Wars The Clone Wars
Justice League Unlimited (all episodes were good)

Comics:
Starman (the James Robinson issues, about 80 of them, available as trade paperbacks)
Hitman (by Garth Ennis, about 60 issues)
 
2014-04-21 03:50:45 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: kroonermanblack:

/anyone recommend something as good as young justice? printed or film, doesn't matter

Cartoon:
Tron: Uprising... great story and voice-acting. It takes a few episodes to get into it.
Star Wars The Clone Wars
Justice League Unlimited (all episodes were good)

Comics:
Starman (the James Robinson issues, about 80 of them, available as trade paperbacks)
Hitman (by Garth Ennis, about 60 issues)


Eh, while I liked Tron Uprising, it's kind of a disappointment since it got cancelled and you're left hanging a bit.
 
2014-04-21 04:15:31 PM  

kroonermanblack: scottydoesntknow: basemetal: Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.

Captain America 2 would like a word with you ($586M worldwide).

Mediocre superhero flicks have been way over done, and DC just can't seem to figure out what to do with its property.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Marvel figured out a formula and it's working very well.

After devouring both seasons of Young Justice in one weekend I'd somewhat agree and disagree.


I wish Netflix would put season 2 of Young Justice up already.  I burned through season 1 in a week.

/and they could get back the DC animated movies too
 
2014-04-21 04:19:14 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: Justice League Unlimited (all episodes were good)


Everyone who saw JLU will co-sign, but especially season 1 which was off the charts with fun, action, intrigue, laughs, etc.
 
2014-04-21 04:20:44 PM  

Bubblegum Tate: kroonermanblack: scottydoesntknow: basemetal: Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.

Captain America 2 would like a word with you ($586M worldwide).

Mediocre superhero flicks have been way over done, and DC just can't seem to figure out what to do with its property.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Marvel figured out a formula and it's working very well.

After devouring both seasons of Young Justice in one weekend I'd somewhat agree and disagree.

I wish Netflix would put season 2 of Young Justice up already.  I burned through season 1 in a week.

/and they could get back the DC animated movies too


If there's one drawback with YJ, it was (sign) Zatanna.  IIRC Season 1 Zee was great.  Season 2 Zee was...trying to make her jailbait (by her costume, not her demeanor), which I did not appreciate.
 
2014-04-21 04:20:52 PM  
Stratohead:

pretty much THIS... they at least keep consistent within their own internal logic.  They don't introduce elements into the plot to justify some other nonsensical point, only to have either ignore it, or create and even more retarded rationalization ...  MoS starts out with a big hole...and just keeps digging deeper and deeper.


You mean like in Avengers when the movie opens with one of their agents getting possessed and they don't think to maybe change the IFF in order to keep him from getting near their airship?  Or the scientist who is completely under Lokis control building a failsafe into a staff he never touches?  Or Loki getting captured so he could unleash the Hulk and escape because he knew the Hulk would be there and he wanted to get caught so he could just escape and so on?  The film is still enjoyable but as I said, it also has a lot of inconsistencies that don't hold up very well.
 
2014-04-21 04:22:14 PM  

Rwa2play: If there's one drawback with YJ, it was (sigh) Zatanna.  IIRC Season 1 Zee was great.  Season 2 Zee was...trying to make her jailbait (by her costume, not her demeanor), which I did not appreciate.


FTFM.
 
2014-04-21 04:24:21 PM  

Flappyhead: Stratohead:

pretty much THIS... they at least keep consistent within their own internal logic.  They don't introduce elements into the plot to justify some other nonsensical point, only to have either ignore it, or create and even more retarded rationalization ...  MoS starts out with a big hole...and just keeps digging deeper and deeper.


You mean like in Avengers when the movie opens with one of their agents getting possessed and they don't think to maybe change the IFF in order to keep him from getting near their airship?  Or the scientist who is completely under Lokis control building a failsafe into a staff he never touches?  Or Loki getting captured so he could unleash the Hulk and escape because he knew the Hulk would be there and he wanted to get caught so he could just escape and so on?  The film is still enjoyable but as I said, it also has a lot of inconsistencies that don't hold up very well.


Ummmm everybody knew he was onto something...they just didn't know what he was aiming for until BW tricked him into spilling it.
 
2014-04-21 04:32:54 PM  

Rwa2play: everybody knew he was onto something...they just didn't know what he was aiming for until BW tricked him into spilling it.


And what guy wouldn't spill all over Black Widow given the opportunity.  She has the kind of face I don't come across often.
 
2014-04-21 04:35:05 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: Rwa2play: everybody knew he was onto something...they just didn't know what he was aiming for until BW tricked him into spilling it.

And what guy wouldn't spill all over Black Widow given the opportunity.


Obviously not Loki; "mewling quim" and all that...

She has the kind of face I don't come across often.

Just the face?
 
2014-04-21 04:38:48 PM  

Flappyhead: Stratohead:

pretty much THIS... they at least keep consistent within their own internal logic.  They don't introduce elements into the plot to justify some other nonsensical point, only to have either ignore it, or create and even more retarded rationalization ...  MoS starts out with a big hole...and just keeps digging deeper and deeper.


You mean like in Avengers when the movie opens with one of their agents getting possessed and they don't think to maybe change the IFF in order to keep him from getting near their airship?  Or the scientist who is completely under Lokis control building a failsafe into a staff he never touches?  Or Loki getting captured so he could unleash the Hulk and escape because he knew the Hulk would be there and he wanted to get caught so he could just escape and so on?  The film is still enjoyable but as I said, it also has a lot of inconsistencies that don't hold up very well.


No. Loki planned to be captured to serve as a distraction. Barton and Selvig were assembling the components to build the portal generator and they used the distraction to finish it and set the device up on Stark Tower. Loki also got his staff on the Helicarrier, where it started to mess with the heroes' minds and, later, allowed Barton to track down the invisible ship and nearly knock it out of the sky.
 
2014-04-21 04:39:22 PM  

Larry Mahnken: I'm totally fine with them not using the John Williams Superman March in the movie... but would it not have been perfect music for the end of the movie?


That used to be a real strength of the Reeves Superman and Keaton Batman. Those theme songs are some of the most appropriate I've ever heard for a character. All it takes is those first few notes from either to put an actual visual image of the character in my head.
 
2014-04-21 04:42:36 PM  
I can forgive quite a few criticisms I initially had with MoS but the last 20 minutes was a loud, drawn-out assault on the viewer as the final fight between Supes and Zod was laughable. If the Krypton guys don't actually feel the effects or have repercussions of their head being shoved all the day down the entire side of a skyscraper then the fight is pointless. Dull.
 
2014-04-21 04:44:43 PM  

Rwa2play: Just the face?


Sorry, I was double-entendreing all over the place.
 
2014-04-21 04:45:32 PM  

mongbiohazard: Glad to see a Man of Steel thread with a good number of people who liked it. Some days I've felt like I've been taking crazy pills, what with all the nerdrage over it.

Man of Steel was fantastic. Yes they fought in the city because Superman didn't have a farking choice in the matter. Zoe and his flunkies were explicitly there to kill everyone. What was Superman supposed to do - hurl super-curses at them from outside the city while they laughed at him and completed their plan, killing everyone, from inside of it? That makes no damn sense... Zoe and company would just stay inside the city and win.


This right here.

Seriously, as much as I think that I'm nerdy, I know that I can never hold a candle to some of you guys. The way some people lose their mmind over the most minute details...
 
2014-04-21 04:46:39 PM  

noheadphones: What's funny is the movies everyone loses their minds gushing over(Avengers, Dark Knight) are also riddled with gaping plot holes.  The only thing more annoying than fanboi rage is selective fanboi rage.


It's because the characters are better-the actors are better-and the writing is better.  People want good performances, and will forgive some plot holes, as long as there is a beginning and end.


I'd say that this is evidence for my thesis that people habitually assign way too much importance to plotting when reviewing movies.

You're absolutely right that the other things -- the narrative, the acting, the dialog, and so forth -- are the things that really make or break a film. The plot of a movie is just the skeleton; everything else is the flesh that animates it and gives it character.

By that very point, though, I find criticism that focus on plot points to be off target. I suspect that when people attack plot points in movies (and  every movie has plot holes, kids), it's really a way of rationalizing the facts that they didn't like it. I think that their irritation with the plot is the effect of them not liking a movie, not the cause.
 
2014-04-21 04:51:22 PM  

fatz3456: Larry Mahnken: I'm totally fine with them not using the John Williams Superman March in the movie... but would it not have been perfect music for the end of the movie?

That used to be a real strength of the Reeves Superman and Keaton Batman. Those theme songs are some of the most appropriate I've ever heard for a character. All it takes is those first few notes from either to put an actual visual image of the character in my head.


Hell, the original Williams Superman theme still gives me a bit of a thrill when it kicks into high gear. I actually re-watched the Reeves Superman 1 and the Donner cut of Superman 2, and while a bit cheesy in parts, and the effects are kinda laughable, it still holds up to be a decent flick IMO.

As far as Keaton's Batman theme, it also helps that the animated series for Batman that came about a few years later kept a modified version of the same theme. When I hear that theme I immediately think about Batman:The Animated Series and Kevin Conroy's voice.
 
2014-04-21 04:54:30 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: For greatest Superman comic one-shot stories, look at Starman 75, and Hitman 34. Written from the prospective of reluctant heroes who idolize Superman.

[img2.wikia.nocookie.net image 400x611]

http://www.shwiggie.com/hitman/hm-34/


There will never be any way to swing a Jack Knight adaptation, especially so many years after the run ended and how ancillary he is to just about any significant franchise WB could milk (JSA maybe, but nothing he did in it that they couldn't give to another team member even during Robinson's run).

This is a tragedy. Easily my favorite super hero book, and it's what got me over a youthful "Marvel is better because their characters are more realistic!" fanboyism and learn to embrace the mythology of comics.

Yes the Superman issue is great. However I'd say it's no moreso than every other page of that series.

...except for some of the one-off issues during A Starry Knight. A special appearance by Space Cabbie? REALLY>
 
2014-04-21 04:54:54 PM  
I'm a big fan of the Reeve Superman flicks, especially I & II, but enjoyed the heck out of MOS.  I did start watching it again on HBO recently and found it kind of boring.  I don't really see it as a flick I'll watch over and over.
 
2014-04-21 05:21:13 PM  

Blathering Idjut: I'm a big fan of the Reeve Superman flicks, especially I & II, but enjoyed the heck out of MOS.  I did start watching it again on HBO recently and found it kind of boring.  I don't really see it as a flick I'll watch over and over.


You know, one hopes that B/S will be great.  If it isn't it's going to sink WB and DC; it cannot afford to be mediocre.
 
2014-04-21 05:25:37 PM  

Rwa2play: You know, one hopes that B/S will be great.


Ok, so I *FINALLY* watched Dark Knight Rises.

****SPOILER ALERT JUST TO BE NICE. SERIOUSLY THOUGH, THE MOVIE IS 2 YEARS OLD.****

So... WHY aren't they using Levitt or Bale? I mean, storyling wise, not using Bale can be understood (although they could wedge him in there if they really wanted).... why not his replacement?
 
2014-04-21 05:31:17 PM  
Had an argument with a co worker last week.  He was throwing the same hissy fit about Superman killing Zod.  I reminded him that CR Superman also killed Zod.  "No he didnt no he didnt, he just stripped him of his powers".  And I asked him what he thought happened to Zod after Supes dropped his ass down that chasm?  Its not like its a ball pit down there.
 
2014-04-21 05:36:31 PM  

Flappyhead: ferretman: I liked it.....but then anything, even Superman III, would be better than the abortion that was 'Superman Returns'.

What's funny is Returns was made for the nostalgia crowd, which is precisely why it sucked.  Snyders film had its issues but at least he was willing to go in a new direction and I enjoyed a lot more than I thought I would.


No, "Returns" sucked because it forgot what made the original movies so fun and so good for families. It was more like the Nolan films in that is was darker and more mean-spirited. Gene Hackman always made it look like being "the greatest criminal mind of our time" was so much fun. Kevin Spacey just yelled at everybody and didn't seem to be enjoying himself at all. When the cast isn't having fun, neither is the audience. That's too bad, too, because Brandon Routh was PERFECT as Superman. They honestly should have given him his job back for "Man of Steel". Henry Cavill is fine, but Routh was better. It is freaky how much he looked like Reeve. But "Returns" was too dark and moody. It just wasn't any fun.
 
2014-04-21 05:50:51 PM  

scottydoesntknow: basemetal: Or...........superhero flicks have been way over done and everyone is bored with them.

Captain America 2 would like a word with you ($586M worldwide).

Mediocre superhero flicks have been way over done, and DC just can't seem to figure out what to do with its property.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Marvel figured out a formula and it's working very well.


Making a lot of money doesn't mean it's a good movie.

/or tired and predictable
 
2014-04-21 06:03:14 PM  

RyansPrivates: RoyFokker'sGhost: Jim from Saint Paul: Mad_Radhu: There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script,

I shall qualify my questions with the standard "No really, I liked the movie despite these things" defense.

1. WHERE. ARE. ALL. THE. DEAD. PEOPLE?  I mean they took down umpteen skyscrapers and there was ZERO collateral damage? Really?

2. So Pa Kent is 20 feet from a tornado and isn;t being sucked off the ground? SURRRRRRRRRRRRE.

3. That and the fact that there are plenty of OTHER scenes where no one is reacting to the CGI. Especiallty when Supes, Lois and the Army dude from Dollhouse™ are all meeting and all of the soliders have their guns trained on Supes. He liftsoff and ALL OF THEM JUST KEEP LOOKING FORWARD LIKE HE IS THERE for another 15 seconds.

All of these things take me out of the movie.

You forgot the fact that the US Government is spending millions of dollars in trying to find out who Superman is when they have radar records of a Kryptonian ship landing in Smallville, more specifically at the Kent home. Military intelligence might be an oxymoron, but it's not that farking blind.

Also, Zach Snyder needs to STFU. You want to see a Superman/Overpowered Villain fight in Metropolis done right? Watch the final episode of Justice league Unlimited, 'Destroyer', where Superman takes on Darkseid and its only a few thousand times better action and more dramatic than 'Man of Steel'.

/[Fighting Darkseid] That man [Batman] won't quit so long as he can draw breath.  None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a  different problem.  [Punches Darkseid through the wall] I feel like I live in a world made of  cardboard.  Always taking care not to break something, to break someone.  Never allowing myself to lose control, even for a moment, or someone could die.  [Punches Darkseid again] But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to  cut loose, and show you  just how powerful I really am.[Punches Darkseid a ...


Captain Marvel calling him out in Clash also applies here: "and you, you were more than a hero. I idolized you. I wanted to BE you. Whenever i was out there, facing down the bad guys, i'd think 'what would Superman do?' Now I know. ...I've fought my share of of pretty nasty bad guys, but I never had to act the way they did to win a fight. I always found another way. I guess I'm saying I like being a hero, a symbol. And that's why I'm quitting the Justice League. You don't act like heroes anymore."
 
2014-04-21 06:13:05 PM  

Rwa2play: RyansPrivates: scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"

Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...

Those two features showed me that DCA "get it" and whoever's in charge of DCE doesn't get one fark of the characters.


I have to agree with that statement. MoS and Dark Knight Rises both have shown to me that DC doesn't understand their characters in the movies. As generally well done as Nolan's series was, the way things played out showed that they wanted 'realism' more than 'Batman.'

I will leave the details out for the moment, but it does show why Marvel's been doing so well without quite as many complaints: They understand the characters a lot more and stay true to the general premise.
 
2014-04-21 06:13:14 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: noheadphones: What's funny is the movies everyone loses their minds gushing over(Avengers, Dark Knight) are also riddled with gaping plot holes.  The only thing more annoying than fanboi rage is selective fanboi rage.


It's because the characters are better-the actors are better-and the writing is better.  People want good performances, and will forgive some plot holes, as long as there is a beginning and end.

I'd say that this is evidence for my thesis that people habitually assign way too much importance to plotting when reviewing movies.

You're absolutely right that the other things -- the narrative, the acting, the dialog, and so forth -- are the things that really make or break a film. The plot of a movie is just the skeleton; everything else is the flesh that animates it and gives it character.

By that very point, though, I find criticism that focus on plot points to be off target. I suspect that when people attack plot points in movies (and  every movie has plot holes, kids), it's really a way of rationalizing the facts that they didn't like it. I think that their irritation with the plot is the effect of them not liking a movie, not the cause.


and it was people like yourself that Mike Judge was lampooning with the "Ass the Movie" segment of Idocricy.
 
2014-04-21 06:21:23 PM  
Actually the real plot hole in Superman 2 was how did powerless Clark and Lois get back to civilization from the Fortress of Solitude? I mean that' s a long walk from the North Pole, unless they borrowed Santa's sleigh.
 
2014-04-21 06:22:52 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: fatz3456: Larry Mahnken: I'm totally fine with them not using the John Williams Superman March in the movie... but would it not have been perfect music for the end of the movie?

That used to be a real strength of the Reeves Superman and Keaton Batman. Those theme songs are some of the most appropriate I've ever heard for a character. All it takes is those first few notes from either to put an actual visual image of the character in my head.

Hell, the original Williams Superman theme still gives me a bit of a thrill when it kicks into high gear. I actually re-watched the Reeves Superman 1 and the Donner cut of Superman 2, and while a bit cheesy in parts, and the effects are kinda laughable, it still holds up to be a decent flick IMO.

As far as Keaton's Batman theme, it also helps that the animated series for Batman that came about a few years later kept a modified version of the same theme. When I hear that theme I immediately think about Batman:The Animated Series and Kevin Conroy's voice.


bruce time said about the superman theme that you should be able to sing the word "Superman" to it. It fits the Williams song, the superman cartoon, and I'm pretty sure the old Fleischer shorts and George reeves version.
 
2014-04-21 06:32:05 PM  

Zombie DJ: Superman has always been about Hope. Even MoS said it, but there was none.
If you lived on Earth when this Superman arrived, you'd just be sitting around waiting for him to destroy your city from a second hand villain.


This. Kirby and Lee got it first, Miller got it, Burton got it, Dini & Timm got it, the current Marvel crew gets it, even Nolan got it. Realism is all well and good, but they're superheroes. With great power comes great responsibility. They have to stand for something. What did MoS Supes stand for? Epic amounts of destruction porn?
 
2014-04-21 06:32:09 PM  

Rwa2play: RyansPrivates: scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"

Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...

Those two features showed me that DCA "get it" and whoever's in charge of DCE doesn't get one fark of the characters.


"the Elite" is fantastic at showing us why asking superman to be dark and edgy is like telling Frank Miller that All star Batman and Robin is fundamentally what we want.

"Is that Superman?" "Not anymore."
 
2014-04-21 06:58:42 PM  
I thought George Reeves was too old and not muscular enough to make a convincing superman. Henry Cavill is just too "petty," like Billy Zane. To me, Christopher Reeve was perfect. He was manly, had that strong jaw, and just enough muscle tone without looking like a Rob Liefeld reject.
 
2014-04-21 07:27:06 PM  
Mad_Radhu

I rewatched it a couple of times recently on HBO and it really holds together well from a plotting standpoint.
Next time watch it sans beer / pot brownies.
 
2014-04-21 07:33:49 PM  

Fano: "Is that Superman?" "Not anymore."


Damn straight.

Superman strikes a particular tone. One you have to get right or it doesn't work. That's why Batman's so flexible. All you need is black, a bat symbol and copious psychological problems.

Superman doesn't work like that. Did you read the recent Adventures of Superman run, Fano? If not, I recommend going to Comixology and getting on that.
 
2014-04-21 07:40:58 PM  
MurphyMurphy

The only thing moronic here is the over-analysis of a comic book action movie.
You know you're a gusher, when your argument is "Stop thinking!"
 
2014-04-21 07:47:09 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Fano: "Is that Superman?" "Not anymore."

Damn straight.

Superman strikes a particular tone. One you have to get right or it doesn't work. That's why Batman's so flexible. All you need is black, a bat symbol and copious psychological problems.

Superman doesn't work like that. Did you read the recent Adventures of Superman run, Fano? If not, I recommend going to Comixology and getting on that.


and you couldnt be more wrong sbout Batman. which is why the Nolan films may be popular, but they sure as fark arent Batman.  "I hate guns...better arm my vehicles to the teeth and shoot them alot, just to show how much I hate guns!"...retarded.  Nolans "Batman" isnt a detective either...he detects jack and shiat. he just has a lot of money and a massive pile of plot-tonium.
 
2014-04-21 07:56:33 PM  

Stratohead: Nolans "Batman" isnt a detective either...he detects jack and shiat. he just has a lot of money and a massive pile of plot-tonium.


None of the Batman films had him as a detective or a scientist. He figured out the combination of The Joker's cosmetic poison scheme in the first film and he did that non-sensical CSI shiat with the bullet in TDK but apparently the world's greatest detective and scientist is too hard to write for.
 
2014-04-21 08:12:45 PM  

Mugato: Mad_Radhu: (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back)

And in S2 he goes back after getting back his powers and kicks that trucker's ass. That never sat right with me.


That never sat right with me either.  When I was a kid it was funny and I guess it was added for laughs but it makes Superman look like a puss.  He cries when he gets his butt kicked and only returns when he's invincible.  I love Superman I-III, though.  I saw the original in the theater when I was 7.  Oddly enough to this day it's the only movie I ever saw in the theater that had an intermission.  WTF?

'Superman isn't brave.  You don't understand. He's smart, handsome, even decent. But he's not brave. No, listen to me. Superman is indestructible, and you can't be brave if you're indestructible. It's people like you and your mother. People who are different, and can be crushed and know it. Yet they keep on going out there every time.'

/I always loved that movie quote
//Wouldn't expect it to be obscure on Fark
 
2014-04-21 08:37:10 PM  

Mugato: Stratohead: Nolans "Batman" isnt a detective either...he detects jack and shiat. he just has a lot of money and a massive pile of plot-tonium.

None of the Batman films had him as a detective or a scientist. He figured out the combination of The Joker's cosmetic poison scheme in the first film and he did that non-sensical CSI shiat with the bullet in TDK but apparently the world's greatest detective and scientist is too hard to write for.


Here's hoping the next reboot will make him a detective. I have to give Burton Batman some credit for pulling us away from the Adam West goofiness that all superhero movies had to do (even Reeves Superman with the beloved Otis and then Richard Pryor). That led to the animated series and away from "isn't that the guy that hangs out with Scooby Door?" Adam West Batman solved puzzles with insane moon logic. Nolan Batman started promising, but collapsed under his own seriousness. Next outing we can hope for a guy that solves mysteries and whomps bad guys, like Robert Downey Sherlock Holmes, but with less weirdness other than wearing a cape and bat ears.

I know I wear my DCAU fandom on my sleeve.
 
2014-04-21 08:38:44 PM  

Fano: Rwa2play: RyansPrivates: scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"

Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...

Those two features showed me that DCA "get it" and whoever's in charge of DCE doesn't get one fark of the characters.

"the Elite" is fantastic at showing us why asking superman to be dark and edgy is like telling Frank Miller that All star Batman and Robin is fundamentally what we want.

"Is that Superman?" "Not anymore."


I had heard about "What's so funny about..." but that story was amazing to see as an animated feature.  All-Star Superman as well; two stories that showed us that Superman can be a badass hero.

That and his beatdown of Darkseid at the end of JLU.
 
2014-04-21 08:48:47 PM  

Fano: Here's hoping the next reboot will make him a detective


I don't see that happening. If any series of films were to get into the intellectual side of Batman it would have been the Nolan films but it didn't happen. The reboot is going to have Superman, Wonder Woman and who knows who else. They're not going to have time for a smart Batman and the kids would probably be bored if they did.
 
2014-04-21 08:53:54 PM  
I really enjoyed Man of Steel.  That being said, I have a few problems with it:

#1 - How was Jor-El even close to a match for Zod at the beginning of the movie.  Yes, I know Zod killed Jor-El, but it shouldn't have even been a fight!  If your entire race is based on genetically engineering your future generations to serve a single focus, how in the hell would a person bred and raised to be a scientist stand 5 seconds in a fight with a person bred and raised to be a soldier.  Now the defense could be made that Zod was raised to be a General, and to lead men is not the same as besting them all in hand-to-hand combat.  But even if that were true, Zod would still have a million times more experience and capabilities in combat than the scientist that was Jor-El.  This is like watching Boris from Goldeneye man-handle Jason Bourne.  It just shouldn't happen.  That fight should have lasted two seconds before they killed Jor-El.  Even barring that, however, how does a freaking General KNOW that there was an ignition code sent out from Jor-El's home, but not have a few aircraft on stand-by to immediately scuttle anything that tried to take off from that house?

#2 - Yes, we saw Clark overhearing those two guys talking about the government going after something that was buried in the ice, but in the next scene he's part of their equipment team?  How the hell did that happen?  I'm pretty sure if the government/armed forces is looking into a mysterious anomaly buried in ice, they're not going to allow just any joe schmoe to show up and say "Hey, got any work?".  They'd have their own people for that, right?  So how was Clark there without a question asked?  Did he just avoid anyone and everyone that could have possibly known he wasn't on their crew?

#3 - Why does Lois have the superpower of "Being exactly where she needs to be for the plot"?  She is literally every single place she needs to be in order for the plot to progress in some small way.  The one at the end was the biggest farking headscratcher.  Zod and Superman just literally flew ALL OVER METROPOLIS but just so happen to land within 20 seconds of Lois so she can come witness his tragic victory over Zod.  Even ignoring all of the other extremely convenient Lois sightings in the film, this one takes the cake.


None of those stopped me from enjoying the film.  I'm not a fan of Superman by any means, I honestly can't stand the character, but I liked that movie.  Hell, maybe that's WHY I liked the movie.
 
2014-04-21 08:55:26 PM  

Mugato: Fano: Here's hoping the next reboot will make him a detective

I don't see that happening. If any series of films were to get into the intellectual side of Batman it would have been the Nolan films but it didn't happen. The reboot is going to have Superman, Wonder Woman and who knows who else. They're not going to have time for a smart Batman and the kids would probably be bored if they did.


Yeah, they'll save that for their animated universe movies.

/Justice League: Doom is my favorite so far
 
2014-04-21 08:55:51 PM  
I like Man of Steel quite a bit, but there are just some holes that yank me out of the suspension of disbelief every time:

The "singularity" they create that sucks the Kryptonian ship into a black hole, along with almost everything else. Debris on the ground is getting pulled UP into it. Yet Lois Lane falls DOWN out of the airplane that crashed into it (i.e. ground-zero of the singularity). WTF?

Zod has the ability to colonize and terraform any planet, so he chooses genocide instead of, say, moving next door to Mars or something. Given that, perhaps Kal El would have been more cooperative with the DNA. Kryptonians, including Zod, were not inherently evil.

Why does the military let Lois Lane tag along EVERYWHERE, including the plane dropping the bomb?

Why does General Zod let Lois Lane tag along EVERYWHERE, including their mother ship?

Why didn't ALL the Kryptonians descend on Metropolis instead of two or three at a time? They would ALL be super powered, no? My hope before I saw the film was that they would explain it by saying that Clark's power comes from the sun, but it's a cumulative thing. He's been there longer and therefore was far more powerful for it. The Kryptonians were powerful, but maybe it was their armor offering them parity with Kal-El. The only way to explain his ability to defeat Zod is that he remains considerably more powerful, which overcomes his total lack of combat skills.


On the other hand, I really liked the flashbacks with Costner, I thought they were the best part of the whole movie and wished there could have been more of that development. Maybe it's because I have adopted sons, but I liked him struggling to find the right way to be a good father to this kid who was obviously not of this earth and how to raise him right so that he wouldn't become the worst thing that ever happened to humanity. I didn't like how he died (Clark could easily have saved him without anyone seeing anything), but it was probably a necessary plot device.

It's a push on the destruction porn. I expected it to be overkill and to go against reason, but Superman did occasionally save people during the fight. And I have to say that I really liked the fight scene in Smallville where they're fighting in a huge hail of bullets without even noticing.
 
2014-04-21 09:04:25 PM  

Rwa2play: Fano: Rwa2play: RyansPrivates: scottydoesntknow: Superman vs. The Elite is another great one. He shows what would happen if he didn't care about collateral damage and goes full anti-hero./"I finally get it. Thank you... I made the mistake of treating you people like, people. Now, I understand better... I understand now what the world wants, what it NEEDS. The world needs people in charge, willing to put the animals DOWN!"

Oh yes. Loved that and All-Star superman, watched them both on the same weekend.

/and welcome to my DC Animated fans favorites list...

Those two features showed me that DCA "get it" and whoever's in charge of DCE doesn't get one fark of the characters.

"the Elite" is fantastic at showing us why asking superman to be dark and edgy is like telling Frank Miller that All star Batman and Robin is fundamentally what we want.

"Is that Superman?" "Not anymore."

I had heard about "What's so funny about..." but that story was amazing to see as an animated feature.  All-Star Superman as well; two stories that showed us that Superman can be a badass hero.

That and his beatdown of Darkseid at the end of JLU.


Superman can issue some fine rebukes: Allstar: "You could have saved the world anytime, Luthor, if it had really mattered to you." I find that one to be the Yang to Red Son Luthor's ultimate FU to Authoritarian Superman's Yin.
 
2014-04-21 09:45:06 PM  
Don't get mad at everyone who noticed you made a Batman movie staring Superman
 
2014-04-21 10:24:28 PM  
mooseyfate: I really enjoyed Man of Steel.  That being said, I have a few problems with it:

#1 - How was Jor-El even close to a match for Zod at the beginning of the movie.  Yes, I know Zod killed Jor-El, but it shouldn't have even been a fight!  If your entire race is based on genetically engineering you
r future generations to serve a single focus, how in the hell would a person bred and raised to be a scientist stand 5 seconds in a fight with a person bred and raised to be a soldier.  Now the defense could be made that Zod was raised to be a General, and to lead men is not the same as besting them all in hand-to-hand combat.  But even if that were true, Zod would still have a million times more experience and capabilities in combat than the scientist that was Jor-El.  This is like watching Boris from Goldeneye man-handle Jason Bourne.  It just shouldn't happen.  That fight should have lasted two seconds before they killed Jor-El.  Even barring that, however, how does a freaking General KNOW that there was an ignition code sent out from Jor-El's home, but not have a few aircraft on stand-by to immediately scuttle anything that tried to take off from that house?

#1 Didn't Jor-El mention they served together? The way I understood it, their society is kind of an all-serve, then you do your own thing (unless you are destined for the military, in which case you'd stay in the military).

#2 Stupidity of the writers. Although I'd imagine they'd hire people from the area whom you wouldn't expect to know about a secret military  operation.

#3 Stupid Lois needs to be involved so that Superman can save her or vice-versa.
 
2014-04-21 10:46:40 PM  
Zack Snyder lost himself up inside his own asshole with Sucker Punch. Never been more embarrassed for a writer/director in my life.
 
2014-04-21 11:04:15 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.


This. I was just talking the other day about why Westerns went out of fashion, and the same things that drove them out make Superman no longer a fashionable character. Nowadays we like heroes who are dealing with their own problems, maybe in addition to helping others but they still have issues or flaws of their own. In the past this wasn't so.
Then, with Westerns, people tried for a while to make them gritty and filled with flawed characters but it really doesn't work, because that's not what Westerns were supposed to be about and doing this just disappoints the Western fans. Same thing happens when you try to make a gritty Superman; that's just no what he's about.

There is a genre of film known as the Visiting Angel story, in which a character who is virtually perfect can be the "star" while another character (or characters) they help are really the ones the story is about (A lot of Disney films with "perfect" main characters do this, like Mary Poppins, Belle from Beauty and the Beast, etc.) I'm surprised no one has attempted that with Superman, since that's really all you can do with him and what he was made to do.

Also, in that article, the director says something about how in all these action movies he makes that flop, he's trying to show how violence "isn't fun or funny." Um, that's the point of an action movie isn't it? If you want something popular, it's supposed to be entertaining. If your goal is merely to make some kind of statement about the real life miseries of war and death, shoot for low budget arthouse style.
 
2014-04-21 11:14:28 PM  

Sobekneferu: Dwight_Yeast: The problem isn't Chris Reeves.  It's Superman: perfect heroes are boring as hell.  Aeneas was boring, and his story is saved only by the gods farking with him.

If you want an interesting (super)hero, you want someone flawed.  Some one like Odysseus.  Someone broken like Bruce Wayne.

Captain America should be boring, too, but they did such a good job when they reintroduced him in the comics that he's much more a modern hero, a flawed hero, than Superman can ever be.

This. I was just talking the other day about why Westerns went out of fashion, and the same things that drove them out make Superman no longer a fashionable character. Nowadays we like heroes who are dealing with their own problems, maybe in addition to helping others but they still have issues or flaws of their own. In the past this wasn't so.
Then, with Westerns, people tried for a while to make them gritty and filled with flawed characters but it really doesn't work, because that's not what Westerns were supposed to be about and doing this just disappoints the Western fans.


Yes, Unforgiven is a terrible western hated by western fans...
 
2014-04-21 11:44:18 PM  

Loan Starr: Mugato: Mad_Radhu: (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back)

And in S2 he goes back after getting back his powers and kicks that trucker's ass. That never sat right with me.

That never sat right with me either.  When I was a kid it was funny and I guess it was added for laughs but it makes Superman look like a puss.  He cries when he gets his butt kicked and only returns when he's invincible.  I love Superman I-III, though.  I saw the original in the theater when I was 7.  Oddly enough to this day it's the only movie I ever saw in the theater that had an intermission.  WTF?



You're both wrong. That scene was and still is funny. The guy was a douche and had it coming. Besides, Supes didn't do anything to him except let him be a douche a second time. Then he just slid him into the pinball machine. Justice served.
 
2014-04-21 11:45:58 PM  
Trocadero:

Yes, Unforgiven is a terrible western hated by western fans...

I assume you're being sarcastic, but must admit I don't know much about the movie in question. I've heard of it, that's all I can say.
 
2014-04-21 11:52:56 PM  

Sobekneferu: Trocadero:

Yes, Unforgiven is a terrible western hated by western fans...

I assume you're being sarcastic, but must admit I don't know much about the movie in question. I've heard of it, that's all I can say.


I haven't seen every western ever made but I'd say it's the best I've ever seen. No one in the film is good or evil, except the guys at the beginning who started the story. Which is probably how it really was. Although my favorite western is Silverado along with Tombstone.
 
2014-04-22 12:10:23 AM  
"gritty" westerns dont work because, wtf??

tell that to Sergio Leone , Samuel Peckinpa...or Clint Eastwood. (not just for "Unforgiven" but Josey Wales and Pale Rider) and HBOs Deadwood would have been sooo much more successful had it been all Hayes code polyanna...riiight.
 
2014-04-22 12:48:06 AM  
I know I'm late to the party, but I'll never understand why people are so outraged that one superhero allowed part of a city to get destroyed, and so forgiving that a team of superheroes allowed part of another city to get destroyed.
 
2014-04-22 01:27:33 AM  

CTZanderman: I know I'm late to the party, but I'll never understand why people are so outraged that one superhero allowed part of a city to get destroyed, and so forgiving that a team of superheroes allowed part of another city to get destroyed.


Because one was a war and the other was a fistfight, basically. And they showed Cap at least trying to protect people during all that. Hulk did the most damage by punching out that big dragon thing. But that's the Hulk. That's what he does.
 
2014-04-22 01:34:38 AM  
 
2014-04-22 01:42:44 AM  
I would consider the terraforming attempt by Zod's lil' army, which was the cause of a considerable amount of damage to the city, to be fairly war-like and not so much a fistfight.  But we can ignore the massive amount of damage that had already been done before the fistfight if we want to keep up the hate.
 
2014-04-22 01:58:07 AM  

CTZanderman: I would consider the terraforming attempt by Zod's lil' army, which was the cause of a considerable amount of damage to the city, to be fairly war-like and not so much a fistfight.  But we can ignore the massive amount of damage that had already been done before the fistfight if we want to keep up the hate.


I don't think that's the part people had problems with, but if you want to bring that up then it's more than evened out by the Smallville battle where Supes chooses to bring the fight away from a remote location and directly into a populated area.
 
2014-04-22 02:20:48 AM  
Smallville isn't well contained by any means, but at least the people were able to get inside of their stores and lock the doors.  Keep them off the streets, right?   That was more or less the plan laid out by Captain America to save people at the end of the Avengers, so I'm sure it worked!

For as much as people have gone on in this thread about the writers trapping Superman in a bad situation, Joss certainly gave his gang an easy out.  The get invaded by hundreds of trained soldiers who are about as skilled with their rifles as your average storm trooper, easily contained in a certain radius by Iron Man flying around in a circle, and ultimately defeated by a nuke.  Such heroics!
 
2014-04-22 02:43:06 AM  

CTZanderman: Smallville isn't well contained by any means, but at least the people were able to get inside of their stores and lock the doors.  Keep them off the streets, right?   That was more or less the plan laid out by Captain America to save people at the end of the Avengers, so I'm sure it worked!

For as much as people have gone on in this thread about the writers trapping Superman in a bad situation, Joss certainly gave his gang an easy out.  The get invaded by hundreds of trained soldiers who are about as skilled with their rifles as your average storm trooper, easily contained in a certain radius by Iron Man flying around in a circle, and ultimately defeated by a nuke.  Such heroics!


But Captain America didn't put those people in direct danger himself by actively bringing the fight to themand wailing on a guy like something out of a prison yard scene while blowing up silos and gas stations along the way. And you want to talk about heroics?
 
2014-04-22 02:51:25 AM  
CTZanderman:

I feel the need to add here that I love Superman and am not a Marvel fanboy by any stretch. I'm not coming from a position of bias here but as a moviegoer who would like to enjoy silver screen adaptations of all the Superheroes regardless of who publishes them. I've never read a Captain America comic in my life but I can tell you his films and his appearance in the Avengers nailed what I do know of his character a hundred times better than Man of Steel was able to grasp the fundamentals on Superman.
 
2014-04-22 03:10:28 AM  
Considering he was unleashing his powers for the first time and engaged in his first ever fight, I'm willing to say some is to be expected.  I'm willing to bet that you probably weren't completely rational and restrained that first time someone bigger than you started a fight.

Most of the beloved Marvel guys have at some point put people at risk.  Thor creates a damn tornado in a small town to defeat the destroyer.  WHY NOT JUST LEAD HIM AWAY FROM THE BATTLE TO AN OPEN FIELD?  Banner goes all green rage monster vs Abomination and wrecks up parts of New York City with civilians everywhere AND NOT ONCE USHERS THEM INTO THE SUBWAYS!  Iron Man punches the heck our of Iron Monger on a busy highway LIKE THEY'RE PLAYING BAD BOYS 3.  And those guys aren't even fighting for the first time.

I mean, Thor literally had to sacrifice himself to prove he was worthy of his hammer, and then he immediately uses it to endanger everyone.  But Superman is is the worst dude ever.
 
2014-04-22 03:14:44 AM  
All those bad guys were already in the populated areas when the fights broke out. It's not a matter of asking the good guys to take them out of it, it's asking them not to deliberately bring them in.
 
2014-04-22 03:17:23 AM  
Fafai:

Point taken.  Similarly-ish, I've found enjoyment in most of the comic book movies.  MoS needed a second viewing before I got into it, and I get some of the issues people have, but I find most of these conversations put a lot of hate on it for things that are apparent throughout the genre but often get ignored because everyone has a chubby for Marvel.  It's popular to hate on Nolan and love on Joss, but there's room for both.  I'll take the occasional flawed Superman to see a world in actual danger and then enjoy a nice Sunday drive with an Avenger's member, and all will be well!
 
2014-04-22 03:21:18 AM  

Fafai: All those bad guys were already in the populated areas when the fights broke out. It's not a matter of asking the good guys to take them out of it, it's asking them not to deliberately bring them in.


See, that's the thing though.  I don't think he was saying to himself "You know what would be great?  If we went for a romp around Smallville.  I need to pick up some things at True Value, we could have lunch at the Waffle House, and then for shiats and giggles I'll kick you through a gas pump."  I'm fairly certain it was more like "GET THE HELL AWAY FRO MMY MOM" and then it ended up there after a couple of good punches.  Again, it's the first time he's actually hitting someone and he may not have known what the exact result was going to be.
 
2014-04-22 03:38:49 AM  

CTZanderman: Fafai: All those bad guys were already in the populated areas when the fights broke out. It's not a matter of asking the good guys to take them out of it, it's asking them not to deliberately bring them in.

See, that's the thing though.  I don't think he was saying to himself "You know what would be great?  If we went for a romp around Smallville.  I need to pick up some things at True Value, we could have lunch at the Waffle House, and then for shiats and giggles I'll kick you through a gas pump."  I'm fairly certain it was more like "GET THE HELL AWAY FRO MMY MOM" and then it ended up there after a couple of good punches.  Again, it's the first time he's actually hitting someone and he may not have known what the exact result was going to be.


I don't really buy that, especially since he has Zod all disoriented on the ground and instead of coming to his senses and taking him out of there, he lectures him on how to control his powers. They've shown him save people (the bus, the oil rig*) so he values human life and has come to appreciate how fragile people are compared to himself. I chalk it up to Snyder's penchant for style over substance.

*that's another thing that bothered me. All the "saving people" stuff was done out of costume and dealt with early on to make room for all the cool explodey kapow stuff. I think he saved one guy in costume. The scene at the end would have held a lot more weight if they showed Superman being worn down gradually, saving who he can but not able to save everyone, and finally deciding enough is enough. But it was too abrubpt. It literally went from "kill millions of off screen people? No problem" to "no don't kill that one family!" right when the plot needed it.

I remember being stoked for this movie. The trailer where they showed him hugging his mom on the farm in costume, I was all over that. I love Donner's Superman but I never understood why he had to abandon his mom like that. Seemed like a dick move considering he can travel anywhere in the world quickly and for free. Had I known that hug was basically "hey ma glad to see youre still alive after I stranded your ass with two evil kryptonians so I could go destroy Smallville" I wouldn't have paid.

Marvel movies have their flaws but none of those flaws end up completely going against the characters. All those characters are portrayed loyally. If you changed the names and costumes of the characters in MoS and it was an original character, I would have come out of it thinking "man they really ripped off superman's origin and powers" but not his character. That's the most important thing
 
2014-04-22 03:58:02 AM  
I would argue that in costume he did save almost an entire planet's worth of people, but he doesn't catch them all one by one and settle them down safely.  And in all fairness, the number of times the Marvel heroes rescue people who aren't their love interests or their partner is pretty low.

He could have a moment to get Zod out of Smallville during his sensory overload, but Zod's crew were right behind him and there's no guarantee that they would have been out of the town.

I agree that the ending is abrupt with the family, but in a way Supes goes from a big, overwhelming fight to something smaller and contained.  It's the classroom scene all over again, only he snaps Zod's neck instead of hugging his mom.

I think the foundation is there for who Superman is, but he's not there yet.  He spent an awful long time hiding a big part of himself, he had a massive event bring him out of hiding, and now that he's saved the planet he's going to have to figure out how to actually interact with it instead of hiding out in remote areas.
 
2014-04-22 04:41:15 AM  

CTZanderman: And in all fairness, the number of times the Marvel heroes rescue people who aren't their love interests or their partner is pretty low.


This much is true. All I can think of is Iron Man 3 with the people falling from the plane, but that movie pretty much sucks. Saving masses of people from certain death using weird powers in creative ways is what I want to see in a superhero movie. Spider-Man 2 did this best with the train. Traditionally that's more Superman's M-O than say Iron Man or Hulk. Superman Returns was boring as shiat but stopping the plane from crashing is among my favorite parts in any Superman film.

I'm not a hater. I really wanted to like MoS but I have no interest in rewatching it at all. It's among the least enjoyable superhero films I've ever seen and apparently I'm not alone there. I can forgive bad movies. Hell I even purchased Spider-Man 3 on dvd to complete the trilogy in my collection. But I can't say I've ever seen anyone miss the mark quite so astoundingly as Snyder did with this one. Maybe as you say he's just "not there yet" but that's no excuse after sitting through the entire movie.
 
2014-04-22 05:18:25 AM  

CTZanderman: And in all fairness, the number of times the Marvel heroes rescue people who aren't their love interests or their partner is pretty low.


Well, just from memory...

In Iron Man, Iron Man saves a village of people he's never met from terrorists, then saves a pilot he's never met who he accidentally endangers on the way home.

In Captain America, Cap rescues thousands of POWs from Hydra during WWII.

In Thor, Thor destroys the Bifrost to save Frost Giants, who aren't just people he doesn't know, but his mortal enemies.

In Iron Man 2, Iron man repeatedly put himself in danger to protect people he doesn't know in the final battle.

In Avengers, Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye all spend a bunch of time evacuating civilians while the aliens are attacking. And Cap saves someone's life when loki is about to kill them in the bow down scene.

In Iron Man 3, there is the whole bit where Tony save everyone falling out of the plane.

In Thor 2, Thor literally saves every single living thing in every universe. So, yeah.

In Cap 2, Cap puts himself and all his friends on the line to stop the murder of 20 million people. I don't think Cap knows 20 million people.

Which covers every MCU movie other than Hulk, which I don't remember much about.

Seriously, you are just wrong.
 
2014-04-22 06:46:40 AM  

CTZanderman: I know I'm late to the party, but I'll never understand why people are so outraged that one superhero allowed part of a city to get destroyed, and so forgiving that a team of superheroes allowed part of another city to get destroyed.


It's largely about tone.  The Avengers was so bright and fun that any thoughts about the destruction being serious or body counts just didn't resonate.  Also, it highlighted the heroes saving people rather than the destruction itself.  It really became comic book violence where somehow no one really gets hurt any time the Hulk goes on a rampage and destroys city blocks.

Man of Steel, on the other hand, was so steeped in its own misery and grimness that I couldn't help think of anything but the staggering pain and death as building after building collapsed.
 
2014-04-22 07:07:30 AM  
Meant to say, "couldn't help think[ing] of nothing but".  Big difference there.
 
2014-04-22 09:01:21 AM  

RyansPrivates: smerfnablin: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

THIS x10

How many thousands of people were killed just so Snyder could have a cool backdrop for his fight scene?

Real superman would have gone outside of the city and *SPOILER* superman doesnt kill people...

/unless you count ripping that hooker in half like a phone book

So if he doesn't what did he do at to Zod at the end of the theatrical release of Superman II?


I have had this complaint about the 'Superman doesn't kill people' whiners since MoS came out.  All they can say is 'in the extended version, the Kryptonians are arrested and taken to jail' - except that is not what was released in the theaters and therefore should not be 'canon' for the movies.  If you watch Superman 2 with no extended cuts, he kills the Kryptonians after he has taken away their powers.  So, really, in Superman 2, he is kind of a dick.  Once he took the powers there was no reason to kill them, just like there was no reason to go back to the diner and beat up the trucker that messed with him early.
 
2014-04-22 09:28:31 AM  

bluenote13: I have had this complaint about the 'Superman doesn't kill people' whiners since MoS came out. All they can say is 'in the extended version, the Kryptonians are arrested and taken to jail' - except that is not what was released in the theaters and therefore should not be 'canon' for the movies. If you watch Superman 2 with no extended cuts, he kills the Kryptonians after he has taken away their powers. So, really, in Superman 2, he is kind of a dick. Once he took the powers there was no reason to kill them, just like there was no reason to go back to the diner and beat up the trucker that messed with him early.


No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing. If the extended version isn't canon, then the bluenote13 version can't possibly be canon either. You can't say he killed them. All you can say is he dropped them into something.
 
2014-04-22 09:38:49 AM  

CTZanderman: I would consider the terraforming attempt by Zod's lil' army, which was the cause of a considerable amount of damage to the city, to be fairly war-like and not so much a fistfight.  But we can ignore the massive amount of damage that had already been done before the fistfight if we want to keep up the hate.


The difference being that in the Avengers there was a portal directly over the city with hundreds of those things pouring out. They couldn't exactly move the portal to the desert.
 
2014-04-22 10:10:08 AM  

Fafai: No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing.


Indeed, if the tone of the whole movie is anything to go by, they landed in a big multi-coloured ball pit while the Price is Right "loser" music played.  To assume that they were killed, that Superman flat-out murdered them in cold blood, is so staggeringly out of step with the rest of the movie that I think it says more about the viewer than the movie if that's what you see there.
 
2014-04-22 10:12:09 AM  

Fafai: bluenote13: I have had this complaint about the 'Superman doesn't kill people' whiners since MoS came out. All they can say is 'in the extended version, the Kryptonians are arrested and taken to jail' - except that is not what was released in the theaters and therefore should not be 'canon' for the movies. If you watch Superman 2 with no extended cuts, he kills the Kryptonians after he has taken away their powers. So, really, in Superman 2, he is kind of a dick. Once he took the powers there was no reason to kill them, just like there was no reason to go back to the diner and beat up the trucker that messed with him early.

No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing. If the extended version isn't canon, then the bluenote13 version can't possibly be canon either. You can't say he killed them. All you can say is he dropped them into something.


So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.  He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series.   Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.
 
2014-04-22 10:15:19 AM  

RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.


Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.
 
2014-04-22 10:35:17 AM  

RyansPrivates: And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well.


I'm thinking that the trucker tends to pick on people, aka he's a bully and a jerk.

Superman going back to "teach him a lesson" is within the realm of showing to the bully that someone that he picked on returned and dished it right back, so that this trucker will think twice about harassing anyone else in the future.
 
2014-04-22 10:41:22 AM  
Superman beating up the trucker is definitely sending the wrong message in the movie, but again it's played so much for laughs that it's far more silly than anything, and a HUGE leap from there to "yeah, he probably murdered some people as well".  If you watch the scene, the worst damage the guy suffered was self-inflicted when he punched Clark in the stomach.  The rest was all Looney Tunes-style violence - and that's using the term in its loosest possible definition.   Again, tone counts for a lot in movies.
 
2014-04-22 10:58:11 AM  

Gawain: Fafai: No he doesn't. He drops them into a pit that is obscured by mist at the top. We don't know what happened. The pit could be 15 feet deep for all we know. It could be a big slide leading to the outside. Or, as the MoS fans seem to think, it could have spikes with bodies impaled all over them like in mortal kombat. However, the tone of that scene really doesn't suggest any such thing.

Indeed, if the tone of the whole movie is anything to go by, they landed in a big multi-coloured ball pit while the Price is Right "loser" music played.  To assume that they were killed, that Superman flat-out murdered them in cold blood, is so staggeringly out of step with the rest of the movie that I think it says more about the viewer than the movie if that's what you see there.


I think it would have been a funny scene if in Superman 3 we saw Zod pushing a shopping cart down the streets of Metropolis.

/okay maybe not "LOL" funny
 
2014-04-22 10:59:38 AM  
I actually think earth under Zod's rule would be pretty sweet. He didn't really bother anyone when he was in power and he wouldn't have put up with all the wars and terrorism around the world.

Hail Zod.
 
2014-04-22 11:02:17 AM  

RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.

Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.


Let's not lie by omission though - Superman had every intention of killing Darkseid right then and there. His stated intention was to beat him to death with his bare hands.

Supes has complicated relationships. He and Lex are almost co-dependent. He loves and loathes Lex Luthor.

But he *HATES* Darkseid. Mr. Miniskirt pushes all of his buttons. He makes Supes reckless and crazy with rage. He compromises his principles. He becomes homicidal.

It's always fun when those two crazy kids get together.
 
2014-04-22 11:07:03 AM  

Mugato: I actually think earth under Zod's rule would be pretty sweet. He didn't really bother anyone when he was in power and he wouldn't have put up with all the wars and terrorism around the world.

Hail Zod.


Kneel when you say that.
 
2014-04-22 11:09:06 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Supes has complicated relationships. He and Lex are almost co-dependent. He loves and loathes Lex Luthor.


Didn't Luthor hold a funeral for Superman when he "died"?

Then in Superman 2, in yet another dick move, he strands Luthor in the Fortress of Solitude. Then again in that universe, the North Pole is less than a mile long before the first Canadian diner.
 
2014-04-22 12:01:44 PM  

RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.

Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.


To be fair to Superman regarding Darkseid: NO ONE, not even Luthor, pushes Superman's buttons in quite that way. After killing Dan Turpin and using Superman as a mind controlled slave, making the people of Earth frightened of him. ("If I knew killing one human would affect you so much, Kal-El, I'd have killed billions(or something like that)") The showdown when he "kills" Darkseid he fought Batman tooth and nail to commit suicide sacrificing himself to ensure it was done. He was furious with Batman for not letting him do it for sure. While he considers that Luthor could be redeemed, he sees nothing for Darkseid, the enemy of all life and freedom. Even Zod and the evil Kryptonians he considers misguided. It causes him lots of trouble not to go down the Justice Lord path, but if he cannot bring himself to kill Darkseid, there is literally no one he could morally kill.
 
2014-04-22 12:08:29 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: RyansPrivates: RyansPrivates: So what, they fall into a ball pit like at Chucky Cheese?  Or as a poster upthread posited: superman keeps mattresses down there, just in case?   And beating up a trucker (who isn't superpowered) is pretty bad as well. In fact, i have more of a problem with that in Superman2 than him killing Zod in MoS.  At least in MoS he was posing a threat at that moment.  And just be clear, it isn't just the movies: Superman kills Zod in the comics.   He kills Darkseid (who is then resurrected later) in the justice league animated series. Superman does kill.  Just not often, and only superbeings.

Before people get all whiny about this one: he kills Darkseid by beating the shiat out of him and then leaving him to blow up (after Batman pulls him away).  It is made pretty clear by later continuity that he (Darkseid) is dead.

Let's not lie by omission though - Superman had every intention of killing Darkseid right then and there. His stated intention was to beat him to death with his bare hands.

Supes has complicated relationships. He and Lex are almost co-dependent. He loves and loathes Lex Luthor.

But he *HATES* Darkseid. Mr. Miniskirt pushes all of his buttons. He makes Supes reckless and crazy with rage. He compromises his principles. He becomes homicidal.

It's always fun when those two crazy kids get together.


Awesome moment in AU, when he defeats Darkseid on Apokalips, telling the people now you're free, they lift him away and tend to him. "I am many things, Kal-El. But here I am GOD."

I think Superman was even good to Starro.His relationship with Luthor IS complicated. The running theme I like is that while he wisely doesn't trust Luthor after all his evil schemes, he genuinely hopes that vast intelligence will be used eventually for good. There IS hope for Luthor.
 
2014-04-22 12:15:02 PM  

Fafai: CTZanderman:

I feel the need to add here that I love Superman and am not a Marvel fanboy by any stretch. I'm not coming from a position of bias here but as a moviegoer who would like to enjoy silver screen adaptations of all the Superheroes regardless of who publishes them. I've never read a Captain America comic in my life but I can tell you his films and his appearance in the Avengers nailed what I do know of his character a hundred times better than Man of Steel was able to grasp the fundamentals on Superman.


Cap was never my favorite but they did a good job with capturing the feel of "boy scout hero" without being hokey. It can be done.

"What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the America Way?"
 
2014-04-22 01:53:11 PM  

RyansPrivates: Anyone else sick of "this" as a response, even when they agree with the thing the "this" is "this"-ing?

/THIS
//THIS
///THIS


That.
 
2014-04-22 02:12:27 PM  
Even Superman has his limits.  Darkseid to Luthor are Apples and Oranges in comparison.  Darkseid is looking to eliminate ALL LIFE in the Universe. ALL of it. I think given the point in JLU where that fight occurs, Darkseid is so close to acquiring the "Antilife Equation" that Supes is more than justified in taking the dude down. They've fought multiple times, and no matter how many times Darkseids been beaten back , he always returned for more.  This time...it had to be dealt with once and for all. Its not like the situation with Batman and the Joker...  Batman could easily kill the Joker, and by all rights probably should...but he won't due to his code, which is entirely unflexable.  However as has been demonstrated repeatedly , even his code has limits...he can let bad people like the Joker hang themselves.
 
2014-04-22 02:20:05 PM  

Sybarite: These two were my favorite part.

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]

[31.media.tumblr.com image 245x143]


You know they're in the phantom zone hate-farking away the time.

As to everyone clinging to the Chris Reeve Supes flicks, it's absolutely true and depressing because the first movie was awful with an ending that simply cannot be fixed via any sort of retcon.  Spinning the Earth backwards to change time is just too farking stupid.  Also, Lex Luthor as a glorified real-estate scammer with a gangsters moll and an idiot henchman didn't help. And I grew up with this movie, I have real memories of the early 80's.  I'm not too young and wouldn't understand, the movie just sucks.

The second one was beter all the way up until Supes kisses away Lois's memory.  Also, just farking stupid... BUT retcon-able.

Superman Returns could have fixed the memory wipe first thing, butt re-enacting the scene, but from Clark's POV, where the camera follows him out of the room and shows him pull a glowing crystal(or whatever) from his pocket, revealing the whole thing was Kryptonian tech.Stupid, yes, but the audience would thank you, especially as Lois's memory would become a key plot point, with even Luthor realizing that she doesn't remember the Fortress which is what tips him off about who Connor's dad is.  When Lois get's clocked during the yacht sinking be an easy thing to have that jog her memory and explain why she isn't more than a little pissed off when she goes to the hospital room and demands to know(as Kevin Smith pointed out)"When did we fark?"

The whole damn trilogy is a mess, and that's BEFORE you go into how badly the character himself is handled - for all of it's faults, Man of Steel AT LEAST pegs the identity crisis correctly.  It was NEVER about Clark v. SUPERMAN, Superman is a nickname, not a person.  It's about a kid named Clark finding out that he wasn't born on Earth and can fly. It's Clark v. Kal-el, and guess what, Clark wins. For that alone Man of Steel is the superior film.
 
2014-04-22 02:22:37 PM  

Grungehamster: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

I get the argument that Superman was forced to fight in the city because he was barely on equal terms with Zod and his crew and couldn't dictate the terms of the battle, and that he was new/inexperienced so he couldn't outmaneuver him. My problem is that he's just as willing to destroy buildings by throwing Zod through them and blowing up property while ignoring all the people fleeing in terror ("It was safe! Everyone probably evacuated the buildings!" my ass). If he was seen minimizing/mitigating the damage of the fight it would go a long way to actually satisfying a lot of nerd complaints about that fight. Then at the end, after what was probably hundreds killed in the fight so far, suddenly one family being in danger is what drives Superman to kill Zod? And then after his initial scream we cut immediately to everyone happy that the threat is gone and NOBODY discusses what just happened?


No one will probably see this post.  But Superman does not throw a Zod through a single (finished/occupied) building.

At the start of the fight Zod smashes Supes into a skyscraper.  He then uses heat vision for the first time causing the ONE AND ONLY skyscraper to crash DURING the Zod/Supes fight.

Then they fight on the street.  Zod throws a gas liner (lexcorp) at superman and blows up a parking garage.  More ground fighting as cars rain from the sky.

Then Superman flies to the top of a building, and Zod does that monkey climb up it.  They smash in the middle blowing a portion out of the building, and Supes chucks Zod through the construction tower.  Zod tries to hit him with the beam and Superman heat visions it.

Then you have an aerial fight where superman/zod grind their faces along the sides of the buildings.  Then Zod throws Superman (not the other way around) through a giant expanse of buildings (seeing Supes go through an empty hallway) before finally the fight goes up to space.  The sattellite is wrecked causing more destruction in the city before the final scene in grand central.

snowshovel: Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back).

Which is why the end fight scene at the end was so awful. The more talented fighter (Zod) should've have squashed the guy who had less-than-0% fighting experience at the point when Zod decides to not hold back any punches since the movie showed them to be pretty at equal strength at that time...regardless of all the mumbo-jumbo talk the movie said about Clark's 30 years of being on the planet. Or Zod should've been showing using that vast amount of military strategy to his advantage. Or something.

Remember, that born-to-be-a-nebbish-scientist Ka-El almost beat Zod in a fist fight at the start of the movie. It's almost as if Snyder sets up an interesting world of idea, but then at some point he goes "It's cool punchy-kicky time! Let's throw away all of those awesome ideas!"

Then again, Zod could just be a lousy fighter regardless of his genetic upbringing.

I don't know, sure, Superman 2 is in a time capsule of when it was made, but resolution of how Superman beats Zod just feels a lot more interesting, where Superman realizes that Zod and himself really can't beat each other up to a win, so he uses his knowledge of people around him and finds a clever solution (by using Luthor's underhandedness). I kind of wish that that's the way MoS would've ended, with Clark using some bit of his 30 years of human knowledge to win the battle, instead of simply taking the easy story-telling way out o ...


Jor-El beat the crap outta Zod before Zod sucker stabbed him.
 
2014-04-22 02:31:16 PM  

Mad_Radhu: K3rmy: Christopher Reeve's Superman was cognizant enough to take the fight OUTSIDE OF THE CITY so that innocents did not get hurt while he was fighting Zod and his minions.

Yeah, Zod and his minions were playing rope a dope with Superman all though the fight scenes. Keep in mind that although Superman is stronger than the Kryptonians, he was fighting seasoned soldiers bred for battle while he hadn't even thrown a punch against a person before due to this strength (as the movie reminded us of when they showed the scene of Clark getting bullied as a kid and holding back). The only time he really brought the fight to a city was when he lost his shiat when Zod threatened Martha and he hurled him into Smallville. All during the Metropolis fight, Superman was either on the other side of the world trying to disable the World Engine, or was struggling to gain any kind of control of the fight. It was an origin story, so a young and inexperienced Superman isn't going to quickly gain the upper hand.

I rewatched it a couple of times recently on HBO and it really holds together well from a plotting standpoint. There's really not any major complaint that isn't covered in the script, aside from why the Kryptonians would bother changing the environment of Earth to be more like Krypton if it will make them weaker.


Actually it kind of is.  There's a weak throw away line by Zod about having a painful adjustment to Earth's atmosphere(which gets forgotten about during the actual fight) more telling is Zod's stated purpose.  He was bred to protect Krypton, and Earth with all of it's greenery was NOT Krypton.  The Krypton he was protecting did not have super-powers, which is reason enough for a fanatic (like the character was re-envisioned as) to simply dismiss the opportunity.  They didn't have it on Krypton, then they didn't need it.

Remember, Jor-El doesn't say that Zod was a ruthless despot that would stop at nothing to impose an iron fist over Krypton, he says that Zod's coup "was too late."  The obvious implication was that the ruling council really was totally responsible for the destruction of Krypton and that the military had failed by not stopping the politicians.  It makes sense that a zealot would take away from that a desire to simply eliminate the bloodlines of those that were responsible for the destruction of their homeworld,  Jor-El's plan seems to involve Clark one day recreating the Kryptonian race, perhaps hybridizing them with humans once the human figure out the tech because Clark has inspired them to greatness.  That's what I took from it anyway.
 
2014-04-22 03:02:05 PM  

JerkStore: I like Man of Steel quite a bit, but there are just some holes that yank me out of the suspension of disbelief every time:

The "singularity" they create that sucks the Kryptonian ship into a black hole, along with almost everything else. Debris on the ground is getting pulled UP into it. Yet Lois Lane falls DOWN out of the airplane that crashed into it (i.e. ground-zero of the singularity). WTF?

Zod has the ability to colonize and terraform any planet, so he chooses genocide instead of, say, moving next door to Mars or something. Given that, perhaps Kal El would have been more cooperative with the DNA. Kryptonians, including Zod, were not inherently evil.


Makes for a more interesting movie?

Why does the military let Lois Lane tag along EVERYWHERE, including the plane dropping the bomb?

She knows who he is.  She is the one who knew about the plan to destroy the mothership.

Why does General Zod let Lois Lane tag along EVERYWHERE, including their mother ship?

She knows who he is.  It's one of the reasons they knew about Smallville (they got the info from either her or Clark)

Why didn't ALL the Kryptonians descend on Metropolis instead of two or three at a time? They would ALL be super powered, no? My hope before I saw the film was that they would explain it by saying that Clark's power comes from the sun, but it's a cumulative thing. He's been there longer and therefore was far more powerful for it. The Kryptonians were powerful, but maybe it was their armor offering them parity with Kal-El. The only way to explain his ability to defeat Zod is that he remains considerably more powerful, which overcomes his total lack of combat skills.

The suits give them powers similar to Clark's.  Zod even admits when Clark says they can share the planet that he will not make Kryptonians suffer years of pain to adapt to the atmosphere as Clark has.  So while Zod was quickly adapting to the powers, he was still likely weaker than Clark.  Not to mention Clark got one advantage the entire fight when he landed on Zod after falling from space.  Until that point, it had pretty much been a one sided fight with Zod beating the ever loving shiat out of clark.
 
2014-04-22 04:09:20 PM  
I just thought it wasn't any fun.
 
2014-04-22 05:24:02 PM  

Stratohead: Batman could easily kill the Joker, and by all rights probably should...but he won't due to his code, which is entirely unflexable


There was a line in "The Dark Knight Returns" where Batman thinks about all of the people he killed because he let The Joker live so long.
 
2014-04-22 05:27:03 PM  

Neeek: Seriously, you are just wrong.


So they each have about one scene per movie where they rescue someone who isn't a love interest?  Oh man, I'm waaaaay wrong.
 
2014-04-22 05:41:06 PM  

Mugato: Stratohead: Batman could easily kill the Joker, and by all rights probably should...but he won't due to his code, which is entirely unflexable

There was a line in "The Dark Knight Returns" where Batman thinks about all of the people he killed because he let The Joker live so long.


that must have been one of the times I fell asleep during that cinematic shiatstain in the theater.
 
2014-04-22 06:20:53 PM  

Stratohead: Mugato: Stratohead: Batman could easily kill the Joker, and by all rights probably should...but he won't due to his code, which is entirely unflexable

There was a line in "The Dark Knight Returns" where Batman thinks about all of the people he killed because he let The Joker live so long.

that must have been one of the times I fell asleep during that cinematic shiatstain in the theater.


Dark Knight Returns (the animated film)...not Rises (the shiatstain you are talking about)
 
2014-04-22 06:49:14 PM  

hammer85: Stratohead: Mugato: Stratohead: Batman could easily kill the Joker, and by all rights probably should...but he won't due to his code, which is entirely unflexable

There was a line in "The Dark Knight Returns" where Batman thinks about all of the people he killed because he let The Joker live so long.

that must have been one of the times I fell asleep during that cinematic shiatstain in the theater.

Dark Knight Returns (the animated film)...not Rises (the shiatstain you are talking about)



Well originally the graphic novel but yeah.
 
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