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(LA Times)   The Koch brothers go after the Sun. "These green energy mandates are bad policy." The Sun is there, for now   (latimes.com) divider line 178
    More: Obvious, green energy, Koch Brothers, energy mandates, Edison Electric Institute, Kansas Senate, David Owens, American Legislative Exchange Council, solar power  
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2164 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Apr 2014 at 10:29 AM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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NFA [TotalFark]
2014-04-20 07:54:26 AM
Solar and Wind energy are great policies.  Alternative green energy gets America off the oil teat and as a result we'll have fewer wars and will not be susceptible to global  fluctuations in the oil supply.  Remember the 1970's when people couldn't get gas to drive to work?
 
2014-04-20 08:12:43 AM
Gee, a fossil fuel magnate thinks green energy is bad policy? It's almost as if he has some sort of ulterior motive for thinking so.
 
2014-04-20 08:14:33 AM
i290.photobucket.com

This solar power business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.
 
2014-04-20 08:28:23 AM
Suddenly these guys are concerned about good public policy? Riiiiggghhht.
 
2014-04-20 08:29:19 AM
What's stopping people with solar panels from just saying "Fine. Screw you. We won't connect to your grid"? Especially in sunny states. (I'm not expert on this at all so please bear with me)
 
2014-04-20 08:48:24 AM
Same guys trying to make efficient high speed rail illegal. It looks like they've succeed in Florida and Tennessee.

This space intentionally left blank.: What's stopping people with solar panels from just saying "Fine. Screw you. We won't connect to your grid"? Especially in sunny states. (I'm not expert on this at all so please bear with me)


A few issues come up.  One is storing that solar energy when the panels are not producing.

More importantly is the fact that states like Texas and Florida are doing their damndest to make it illegal to live off the grid.  In Texas, the raid on a self-sustaining community called Garden of Eden was done under the guise of a marijuana bust but only resulted in code violations.  In Florida, the recent ruling against a Coral Gable homeowner that was living off the grid because she was not hooked up to the city's water system.
 
2014-04-20 08:51:45 AM

This space intentionally left blank.: What's stopping people with solar panels from just saying "Fine. Screw you. We won't connect to your grid"? Especially in sunny states. (I'm not expert on this at all so please bear with me)


Arizona did it's damndest to fark over people with solar panels.  The utilities were trying to force a rate increase of $50-$100 on solar customers.  They managed to get a $5 monthly surcharge to people who install solar panels.
 
2014-04-20 08:52:24 AM
Simpsons did it.

www.extremetech.com
 
2014-04-20 09:36:01 AM
What's the deal with all these old people who have more money than they could possibly use in their short ass lifetime trying to fark with everyone else? Just buy an island and go be gay like everyone knows you want to.
 
2014-04-20 09:39:14 AM
i know the kochs aren't anti-science. and they claim to be libertarians. so where does their deep, visceral, pathological hatred of obama come from?
 
2014-04-20 09:43:48 AM

Mugato: What's the deal with all these old people who have more money than they could possibly use in their short ass lifetime trying to fark with everyone else? Just buy an island and go be gay like everyone knows you want to.


Or a mandatory retirement bank balance. If you hit $5b you have to retire and spend your life with your monies.
 
2014-04-20 09:50:18 AM

FlashHarry: i know the kochs aren't anti-science. and they claim to be libertarians. so where does their deep, visceral, pathological hatred of obama come from?


What is, "because he's black", Alex?
 
2014-04-20 10:21:28 AM

This space intentionally left blank.: FlashHarry: i know the kochs aren't anti-science. and they claim to be libertarians. so where does their deep, visceral, pathological hatred of obama come from?

What is, "because he's black", Alex?


that seems to be the most logical conclusion. he's an "uppity" black man who doesn't know his place. while it would be fine if he were handing you your brandy at the club or parking your car, his ascension to the highest office in the land is way beyond his station.
 
2014-04-20 10:33:39 AM
It's almost as though for-profit power companies are a bad thing.
 
2014-04-20 10:39:24 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Gee, a fossil fuel magnate thinks green energy is bad policy? It's almost as if he has some sort of ulterior motive for thinking so.


And done.
 
2014-04-20 10:39:53 AM

FlashHarry: that seems to be the most logical conclusion. he's an "uppity" black man who doesn't know his place. while it would be fine if he were handing you your brandy at the club or parking your car, his ascension to the highest office in the land is way beyond his station.


Which by extension, since Obama was elected with an overwhelming mandate both times is the message that uppity average voters don't know what's good for them and need to be put in their place as well.
 
2014-04-20 10:44:17 AM
It's things like this that make me wish sympathetic magic was real.

static.tvtropes.org
I think 'Poke a Koch' dolls would sell.
 
2014-04-20 10:45:06 AM
What's absolutely farking hilarious is these bastards could make HUGE money off of solar power.

Tell your money people to slowly divest yourself of traditional power and start offering a hell of a deal to communities: We'll install free solar panels and maintain them at no charge to you, but we keep any extra power generated and sold back. With billions in assets, you could snatch up prime power real estate in Florida-Texas-Arizona-Hawaii and lobby the government to push for solar power in the non-profitable areas (like Maine).

In 10 to 15 years, you have a power plant without actually having to pay for a power plant with the benefit of getting in early and monopolizing all the sunny areas.
 
2014-04-20 10:53:12 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: What's absolutely farking hilarious is these bastards could make HUGE money off of solar power...


That would involve doing something that benefits us as a whole; that would be poison to Koch DNA.
 
2014-04-20 10:54:24 AM
You can always vote for these guys by patronizing the NY Metropolitan Museum of Art.
 
2014-04-20 10:56:52 AM
These so called libertarians get nervous when the competition of very cheap chips is certain on the horizon. "If you are using the grid and benefiting from the grid, you should pay for it..." said David Owens, executive vice president of the Edison Electric Institute.     hmm, what a socialistic ideal

Solution, pay the government to inhibit the competition.

it has all been said before...
 
2014-04-20 11:01:18 AM
Their whole argument is a fantasy. 99% of people with solar panels still pay for the grid, either through base rate fees or simply because with current net-metering rules, it doesn't make financial sense to fully zero out the meter year round.

With net metering, you can bring your consumption down to zero, but not get paid or credited for a kWh over (typically within a 12-month billing cycle). Because of this, it doesn't make any financial sense to overbuild a PV array to meet the total annual need, because any excess is simply taken by the utility for free, and you see zero benefit.

They're simply afraid, now that PV is cheaper than grid power in many areas, that they'll have reduced profits as customers become more independent. If they push too hard with fees, especially in the case of a $100 monthly surcharge, it may make financial sense for folks to completely cut ties from the grid and put that former surcharge fee into batteries (especially as huge electric car batteries cycle out of old EVs).
 
2014-04-20 11:01:27 AM

one of Ripley's Bad Guys: That would involve doing something that benefits us as a whole; that would be poison to Koch DNA.


Not at all, they can do it purely for the profit potential to control an entire industry.

A basic PR spin campaign can turn the entire endeavor into Elon Musk-esque populists: Big money with big dreams. Get the public on your side and you can use it to leverage more things you like from the government (like tax cuts) because now you have votes AND money
 
2014-04-20 11:02:34 AM
image2.findagrave.com
 
2014-04-20 11:04:15 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: ....... In 10 to 15 years, you have a power plant without actually having to pay for a power plant with the benefit of getting in early and monopolizing all the sunny areas.


One of them was born in 1940, the other in 1935.  Investing for the next 10-15 years won't give a ROI before they begin their dirt naps.  At this point it's all just grab as much cash and power in the short term as possible, which is pretty sick if you ask me.

I suppose when your entire life has been about nothing but amassing power and wealth, that's all you know.
 
2014-04-20 11:06:10 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: What's absolutely farking hilarious is these bastards could make HUGE money off of solar power.

Tell your money people to slowly divest yourself of traditional power and start offering a hell of a deal to communities: We'll install free solar panels and maintain them at no charge to you, but we keep any extra power generated and sold back. With billions in assets, you could snatch up prime power real estate in Florida-Texas-Arizona-Hawaii and lobby the government to push for solar power in the non-profitable areas (like Maine).

In 10 to 15 years, you have a power plant without actually having to pay for a power plant with the benefit of getting in early and monopolizing all the sunny areas.


There are already companies that do this. Solar leasing, you get to power your home, they sell the excess.
 
2014-04-20 11:07:48 AM
The power industry argues that net metering provides an unfair advantage to solar consumers, who don't pay to maintain the power grid although they draw money from it and rely on it for backup on cloudy days. The more people produce their own electricity through solar, the fewer are left being billed for the transmission lines, substations and computer systems that make up the grid, industry officials say.

"If you are using the grid and benefiting from the grid, you should pay for it," said David Owens, executive vice president of the Edison Electric Institute, the advocacy arm for the industry. "If you don't, other customers have to absorb those costs."


Looking at my electric bill, I pay a $7.98 "Customer Charge". I would guess that anyone on the grid would pay a similar charge. It may be called something different depending on what utility you use. Wouldn't that be "paying for the use of the grid"?
 
2014-04-20 11:10:19 AM

NFA: Solar and Wind energy are great policies.  Alternative green energy gets America off the oil teat and as a result we'll have fewer wars and will not be susceptible to global  fluctuations in the oil supply.  Remember the 1970's when people couldn't get gas to drive to work?


AND the Koches are really into making disposable paper products as well (paper towels, toilet paper, etc.).

It's like being Bond villains isn't evil enough for them. They have to be cartoon villains from Captain Planet as well.

I bet the two of them argue at night in their mansions whether they should wear a handlebar mustache to twiddle or get the iron mask and Dr Doom cowl.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-20 11:13:10 AM

This space intentionally left blank.: What's stopping people with solar panels from just saying "Fine. Screw you. We won't connect to your grid"? Especially in sunny states. (I'm not expert on this at all so please bear with me)


Off grid solar is very expensive and most solar installations don't produce all the electricity needed.  Imagine a UPS big enough to power your whole house.
 
2014-04-20 11:13:11 AM
We as a society are responsible for our crappy elected officials and off the leash billionaires so we have no one to blame but ourselves, untill we say enough is enough they'll keep getting worse.
 
2014-04-20 11:13:34 AM

Pavia_Resistance: Looking at my electric bill, I pay a $7.98 "Customer Charge". I would guess that anyone on the grid would pay a similar charge. It may be called something different depending on what utility you use. Wouldn't that be "paying for the use of the grid"?


Yup, in almost every case, that is how electricity is billed, including people with rooftop solar. They want an additional solar surcharge . . . because . . . liberty! Freedom!

Why would anyone be against freedom and liberty?
 
2014-04-20 11:14:37 AM

edmo: Suddenly these guys are concerned about good public policy? Riiiiggghhht.


Oh, these types not only want to be extremely evil. They want to be seen as heroes for being so evil. They want parades and huge golden statues of them made, with herds of chained peasants singing praises from the pit. It's all part of their Randian upbringing, where being a filthy-rich DoucheLord is supposed to be a thing to be worshiped.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-20 11:14:49 AM
It's difficult to fathom the depth of greed and evil of these people.  Sometimes I wish there was a hell.
 
2014-04-20 11:18:27 AM

Pavia_Resistance: The power industry argues that net metering provides an unfair advantage to solar consumers, who don't pay to maintain the power grid although they draw money from it and rely on it for backup on cloudy days. The more people produce their own electricity through solar, the fewer are left being billed for the transmission lines, substations and computer systems that make up the grid, industry officials say.

"If you are using the grid and benefiting from the grid, you should pay for it," said David Owens, executive vice president of the Edison Electric Institute, the advocacy arm for the industry. "If you don't, other customers have to absorb those costs."

Looking at my electric bill, I pay a $7.98 "Customer Charge". I would guess that anyone on the grid would pay a similar charge. It may be called something different depending on what utility you use. Wouldn't that be "paying for the use of the grid"?


Sure, but you still didn't build that
 
2014-04-20 11:19:14 AM
Some people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat.

I am not worried about running out of energy. Why? Because enough of us are sane enough to get ahead of any emergency by pushing the technology earlier. Losses today from subsidies or mandates will all payoff if shiat hits the fan. If shiat doesn't, then we will be fine too.

Plus what if we go renewable clean energy early and global warming was all a hoax.jpg
 
2014-04-20 11:19:24 AM
Using political influence to distort a market and create barriers to entry is the absolute opposite of free-market economics.

These guys aren't 'libertarians'. They have no principles beyond give me more stuff.
 
2014-04-20 11:20:36 AM
Like the fossil fuel industries never got breaks from the government.  They just want a piece of the renewable energy action.  Then they'll be happy.
 
2014-04-20 11:25:07 AM

BunkyBrewman: In Florida, the recent ruling against a Coral Gable homeowner that was living off the grid because she was not hooked up to the city's water sewer system and refusing to pay the hookup fee.


There...fixed that for you.
 
2014-04-20 11:30:03 AM

Stone Meadow: BunkyBrewman: In Florida, the recent ruling against a Coral Gable homeowner that was living off the grid because she was not hooked up to the city's water sewer system and refusing to pay the hookup fee.

There...fixed that for you.


Nope.  She didn't have running water, according to a Coral Gables municipal official interviewed by WTFX.

She was not hooked up to the city's water system.  Cite:  You were saying?

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2014/02/24/Florida-woman-is-told-she-has -o ne-month-to-plug-in-to-the-grid/7991393263020/
 
2014-04-20 11:31:39 AM
BTW... she's already hooked up to the city's sewer system.

*themoreyouknow.gif*
 
2014-04-20 11:32:41 AM

Mugato: What's the deal with all these old people who have more money than they could possibly use in their short ass lifetime trying to fark with everyone else?


Because they're like the "360 Kid", where the thing about being filthy rich isn't being filthy rich, it's showing everyone else that you are filthy rich.

digthatbox.com i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2014-04-20 11:33:09 AM

mutterfark: I think 'Poke a Koch' dolls would sell.


Rule 34 you sick fark
 
2014-04-20 11:34:14 AM

vernonFL: Simpsons did it.

[www.extremetech.com image 640x353]


came for this leaving satisfied.
 
2014-04-20 11:35:56 AM

NFA: Solar and Wind energy are great policies.  Alternative green energy gets America off the oil teat and as a result we'll have fewer wars and will not be susceptible to global  fluctuations in the oil supply.  Remember the 1970's when people couldn't get gas to drive to work?


1. Right the fark on. They work brilliantly and now, with thin film tech being what it is, it's downright silly not to embrace solar a bit more.

2. I'm afraid the powers that be dig wars for oil. You have a tougher sell with that angle. Unfortunately.
 
2014-04-20 11:42:08 AM

Mugato: What's the deal with all these old people who have more money than they could possibly use in their short ass lifetime trying to fark with everyone else? Just buy an island and go be gay like everyone knows you want to.


To some people, it's not really winning unless somebody else is losing.
 
2014-04-20 11:42:56 AM

BunkyBrewman: She was not hooked up to the city's water system.  Cite:  You were saying?

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2014/02/24/Florida-woman-is-told-she-has -o ne-month-to-plug-in-to-the-grid/7991393263020/


Not quite. She was acquitted of the electrical violations, but found guilty of unauthorized use of the city sewer system: "Also discussed at the special hearing was the fact that Speronis had been using the sewer system for the past year yet not paying for the service amassing a past due bill in the thousands. After her testimony admitting that she had used the service without paying for it, the city decided to cap the sewer line.", and is required to hook up to the city water system. That part of the case is under appeal, though, so the final word is not in.
 
2014-04-20 11:50:34 AM

phenn: 2. I'm afraid the powers that be dig wars for oil. You have a tougher sell with that angle. Unfortunately.


True, but then there's the fact that the powers that be will have a hard(er) time going full Operation Iraqi Freedom on an oil-rich nation and selling that war as anything other than a war for oil.

/"and" being the key word here -- they could just say "Yeah, it's a war for oil. What are you gonna do about it, huh?"
//"Oh, you're gonna protest the war by holding signs, chanting Kumbaya and peaceably assembling for a redress of your grievances? Enjoy getting maced, tazed and bludgeoned by the cops for 'loitering,' 'resisting arrest' and 'disorderly conduct.'"
///"Oh, you're gonna protest the war by not enlisting? Enjoy the return of the draft."
 
2014-04-20 11:55:41 AM
Im shocked that some troll or white knight hasnt posted yet.
 
2014-04-20 11:58:31 AM

BunkyBrewman: More importantly is the fact that states like Texas and Florida are doing their damndest to make it illegal to live off the grid.


The Party of Freedom® and Small Government®, ladies and gentlemen.
 
2014-04-20 12:00:12 PM

Caffeine Induced Diarrhea: Im shocked that some troll or white knight hasnt posted yet.


It is Easter, the sun-rise service will be wearing off soon.
 
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