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(Oregon Live)   For centuries brewers in Oregon have given their spent grains to dairy farmers, allowing cows to get fed while brewers recycled their waste. So leave it to the FDA to screw up the harmony   (oregonlive.com) divider line 77
    More: Asinine, spent grains, FDA, Oregon, Beer Institute, Timothy Hutton, positive tests, Peter DeFazio, Greg Walden  
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2014-04-20 08:45:11 AM
1.5 centuries max, before that there was no Oregon.

/didn't we do this thread already?
 
2014-04-20 09:15:33 AM
Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste
 
2014-04-20 09:49:32 AM
Government at its finest.

A problem that no one is complaining about and the FDA even admits there has been no reason to consider.  We're going to stop feeding spent unprocessed brewers grains to cows raising the costs for everyone because....

anyone?  Which PAC is advocating this and how much are they "contributing"
 
2014-04-20 09:49:56 AM
We already had an article on this.  This r repeat.

This isn't a new law or something they're attempting to force through.  This is a proposed regulation that's out for public comment.  That's it.  They put out regulations like this for a damn reason for comment TO GET INPUT.

Also, as someone pointed out last thread, there's an exemption already in the proposed regulation for situations like this.
 
2014-04-20 09:50:39 AM

Peter von Nostrand: Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste


I don't think you quite understand what comes out of the brewing process in terms of grains. The mash created to make booze essentially comes down to adding grain to boiling water which allows the water to leech sugars and such out of the grain, like making a grain tea.

That water is then drained off and has yeast added in order to make booze.

The leftovers are essentially no different than a bowl of oatmeal with hops added to it.

There's no "waste" involved, except insofar as having leftover grain material which is not used in the brewing process. What, exactly, about that is harmful to animals? Hell, I could scoop up a bowl of it, add honey and cinnamon, and have it for breakfast.
 
2014-04-20 09:51:46 AM

Peter von Nostrand: Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste


Yea we should just feed cows themselves instead

"It's a food grade product and heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during brewing, which would kill any contaminants. "

so really, this is something that has no issue whatsoever and is beneficial as this stuff won't end up in landfills instead.

But, you know, government knows best.
 
2014-04-20 09:53:45 AM

Kit Fister: Peter von Nostrand: Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste

I don't think you quite understand what comes out of the brewing process in terms of grains. The mash created to make booze essentially comes down to adding grain to boiling water which allows the water to leech sugars and such out of the grain, like making a grain tea.

That water is then drained off and has yeast added in order to make booze.

The leftovers are essentially no different than a bowl of oatmeal with hops added to it.

There's no "waste" involved, except insofar as having leftover grain material which is not used in the brewing process. What, exactly, about that is harmful to animals? Hell, I could scoop up a bowl of it, add honey and cinnamon, and have it for breakfast.


Just nit picking subby
 
2014-04-20 09:54:32 AM

You Are All Sheep: Peter von Nostrand: Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste

Yea we should just feed cows themselves instead

"It's a food grade product and heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during brewing, which would kill any contaminants. "

so really, this is something that has no issue whatsoever and is beneficial as this stuff won't end up in landfills instead.

But, you know, government knows best.


Oh the irony
 
2014-04-20 09:55:15 AM
The FDA is almost certainly in the pocket of some animal feed manufacturer. Yay honest government.
 
2014-04-20 09:56:13 AM
Please, will you just STFU and obey? It's almost like you don't get who is in charge here.
 
2014-04-20 09:57:17 AM

Satanic_Hamster: Also, as someone pointed out last thread, there's an exemption already in the proposed regulation for situations like this.


If I read the article correctly there is CURRENTLY an exemption that would go away under the new proposed regulation.
 
2014-04-20 09:59:24 AM

AngryDragon: Which PAC is advocating this and how much are they "contributing"


Here's your answer...

flucto: The FDA is almost certainly in the pocket of some animal feed manufacturer. Yay honest government.


This is going to get stomped into the mudcowshiat
 
Skr
2014-04-20 10:02:44 AM
This doesn't stand a chance at becoming law. No reason to get hopping mad.
 
2014-04-20 10:03:12 AM
Yep, Jerry Bailey who started the Old Dominion Brewery (now assimilated and ruined by mega-borg Anheuser-Busch) said Loudoun County had some of the happiest pigs around getting the spent mash out of his little brewery.
 
2014-04-20 10:03:14 AM

flucto: The FDA is almost certainly in the pocket of some animal feed manufacturer. Yay honest government.


It's seems like it's just a proposal for now, but I'll bet "Big Corn" has there lobbyists pounding away at it. They've lost a ton on the whole ethanol debacle.
 
2014-04-20 10:03:19 AM

Satanic_Hamster: We already had an article on this.  This r repeat.

This isn't a new law or something they're attempting to force through.  This is a proposed regulation that's out for public comment.  That's it.  They put out regulations like this for a damn reason for comment TO GET INPUT.

Also, as someone pointed out last thread, there's an exemption already in the proposed regulation for situations like this.


You're interfering with the right wing, mid-term agenda: Gubment BAD! Must destroy!
 
2014-04-20 10:03:35 AM
that stuff is fermented and heated . it's totally safe and actually anti-microbe when they load it into trucks. some Republican is getting a fat bonus stapled to this bill.
 
2014-04-20 10:03:56 AM
The only answer is to abolish all government agencies.
 
2014-04-20 10:04:01 AM

Skr: This doesn't stand a chance at becoming law. No reason to get hopping mad.


It's not law, it's regulation. No accountability, only bureaucrats.
 
2014-04-20 10:04:49 AM
You Are All Sheep:
so really, this is something that has no issue whatsoever and is beneficial as this stuff won't end up in landfills instead.

There can be issues if the stuff is not stored or transported correctly or is not used soon enough.  The regulations would make sure that if the stuff is being used as feed, it is treated as feed, instead of garbage.
 
2014-04-20 10:09:07 AM

utah dude: that stuff is fermented and heated . it's totally safe and actually anti-microbe when they load it into trucks.


Yeah, once sterile, always sterile, right?
 
2014-04-20 10:10:52 AM
http://tcbmag.com/News/Recent-News/2014/April/FDA-Responds-To-Craft-B r ewer-Backlash-Over-Propose

"The primary concern of the FDA now appears to be how the spent grain is held at the brewery and transported to the farm," the American Malting Barley Association told its members.

In other words, the agency appears to be seeking documentation to confirm the cleanliness of the silos that store the grains and the trucks that transport them-which would presumably have a much smaller impact on brewers than if they were, say, required to dry and package the spent grains.
 
2014-04-20 10:11:35 AM
This will finally end obamas reign of terror.

Beer, bacon, and burger prices going up? Not in my 'Merica!
 
2014-04-20 10:14:00 AM
Mehh, just more of the unwilling, ordered by the unqualified to do the unnecessary.

Been dere, dun dat, it was also a waste of time.
 
GBB [TotalFark]
2014-04-20 10:16:47 AM
What's a "centuries brewer"?
 
2014-04-20 10:16:47 AM

You Are All Sheep: Peter von Nostrand: Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste

Yea we should just feed cows themselves instead

"It's a food grade product and heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during brewing, which would kill any contaminants. "

so really, this is something that has no issue whatsoever and is beneficial as this stuff won't end up in landfills instead.

But, you know, government knows best.


When I cook my oatmeal it, it goes past 170. Still, if I don't store leftovers properly, they get moldy.
 
2014-04-20 10:17:26 AM
The Government knows best.      If it adds cost, as most Gov't regulation does,  then it is just the price we have to pay for 'safety'.        As a bonus, if beer is more expensive maybe people will cut back on it and we will have less accidents from drunk driving.

The people who think less regulation is good are just those crazies on the fringe.   Real mainstream people know that adding costs through regulations whether it is healthcare, manufacturing, farming, or mining is a good thing.
 
2014-04-20 10:20:49 AM

notto: You Are All Sheep:
so really, this is something that has no issue whatsoever and is beneficial as this stuff won't end up in landfills instead.

There can be issues if the stuff is not stored or transported correctly or is not used soon enough.  The regulations would make sure that if the stuff is being used as feed, it is treated as feed, instead of garbage.


The breweries don't "store" this stuff. They want it off their land ASAP so they can get working on the next batch and the pig farmers want it in their pigs ASAP as it's free feed.

There's not a lot that can go wrong with freshly pasteurized grain.
 
2014-04-20 10:21:03 AM

toadist: The Government knows best.      If it adds cost, as most Gov't regulation does,  then it is just the price we have to pay for 'safety'.        As a bonus, if beer is more expensive maybe people will cut back on it and we will have less accidents from drunk driving.

The people who think less regulation is good are just those crazies on the fringe.   Real mainstream people know that adding costs through regulations whether it is healthcare, manufacturing, farming, or mining is a good thing.


It is people who think that no regulation is good who are the crazies on the fringe.  I'll assume that you are not one of those.  If not, how do you decide what regulations are good and what regulations are bad?
 
2014-04-20 10:23:29 AM
Target Builder:

The breweries don't "store" this stuff. They want it off their land ASAP so they can get working on the next batch and the pig farmers want it in their pigs ASAP as it's free feed.

There's not a lot that can go wrong with freshly pasteurized grain.


Then they should be able to document that their short term storage and transportation is food safe.  That is what this regulation seeks to do.   They do 'store' it, even if for a short amount of time.  It is open to contamination if it is not treated as feed but instead is treated as garbage.
 
2014-04-20 10:24:00 AM
EvilEgg:

/didn't we do this thread already?

It's Fark devotion to recycling.
 
2014-04-20 10:25:20 AM

AngryDragon: Government at its finest.

A problem that no one is complaining about and the FDA even admits there has been no reason to consider.  We're going to stop feeding spent unprocessed brewers grains to cows raising the costs for everyone because....

anyone?  Which PAC is advocating this and how much are they "contributing"


This actually sounds like a good old fashioned cock-up.  They probably ended all exemptions without regard to the fact that some of them probably made sense.  The exemption will likely either be extended, certain provisions will be granted a narrower exemption, or, worst case, brewers will sell their feedstock to a processor, who will then sell it to farmers (this is how the pet food industry works).  The mark-up would likely be tiny, but ideally this wouldn't happen, since it doesn't seem necessary.

Ideally, the rule will be amended to basically say "Prove this is true." FTFA: It's a food grade product and heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during brewing, which would kill any contaminants. (Although I'm not so sure 170 degrees is sufficient, nor can all contaminants be "killed.")
 
2014-04-20 10:25:30 AM

notto: Target Builder:

The breweries don't "store" this stuff. They want it off their land ASAP so they can get working on the next batch and the pig farmers want it in their pigs ASAP as it's free feed.

There's not a lot that can go wrong with freshly pasteurized grain.

Then they should be able to document that their short term storage and transportation is food safe.  That is what this regulation seeks to do.   They do 'store' it, even if for a short amount of time.  It is open to contamination if it is not treated as feed but instead is treated as garbage.


Take your reasonableness and sanity elsewhere. This thread of for GUBMINTBADGARBLE!!!1
 
2014-04-20 10:26:47 AM

MFAWG: You're interfering with the right wing, mid-term agenda: Gubment BAD! Must destroy!


Government is a force-multiplier, like a gun or a nuke. When the persons in charge are espousing a point of view you agree with, then it is benign. When the persons in charge are espousing a point of view you disagree with, then it's evil.

Ideally, government should be limited in such a way that it is there to enforce common regulation and legal protections, and be restricted from enforcing legal actions which conform to particular agendas, as that's not the role of government.

For example: It is in the common best interest for the federal government/state governments to define marriage insofar as ensuring that those who enter into a contract of legally binding cohabitation are granted certain rights and protections.  It is not for the government to define exactly, beyond being consenting adults, the specifics of who may and may not engage in a marriage, be that by race, gender, etc.

It is in the common interest to ensure global availability of medical care and the availability of same as a public service.

etc.

As far as it goes, as long as money talks, government is going to be "bad" simply because it acts both as a lever for those with the most money to benefit and maintain their status, but also because those in power have the ability then to enforce and enact rules and procedures which are designed to prevent those who would question or fight back from having a voice that might change the status quo.

In short: I want small government not because i necessarily think that a Corporatist private-sector society is better, but because the role of government itself should be limited to enforcing the common rules of society and not as an agent of enforcing any particular ideology.
 
2014-04-20 10:27:47 AM

Satanic_Hamster: We already had an article on this.  This r repeat.

This isn't a new law or something they're attempting to force through.  This is a proposed regulation that's out for public comment.  That's it.  They put out regulations like this for a damn reason for comment TO GET INPUT.

Also, as someone pointed out last thread, there's an exemption already in the proposed regulation for situations like this.


And the input is, "This is a horrible proposal, and will do absolutely nothing for food safety while driving up costs of food.  If you go through with this rule, you will be a great example of government regulation at its worst, and provide fuel for all the tea party nutters who want nothing more than to find excuses for why all regulatory agencies should be abolished.  You're not helping.  Go find another problem that is actually a problem."

Agricultural practices that have been in place since the technique of brewing was invented shouldn't be outlawed simply because some bureaucrat is trying to justify his job's existence and get another line on his annual performance report.
 
2014-04-20 10:28:41 AM
Im not a raging "everything-the-government-does-is-bad" idiot... but this is stupid.

They'll attempt to stop this practice but cows standing in pools of their own feces is OK.
 
2014-04-20 10:29:28 AM

Skr: This doesn't stand a chance at becoming law. No reason to get hopping mad.


It's a regulation, not a law. Either way I'm sure there's a lobbyi$t that di$agree$ with you.
 
2014-04-20 10:31:04 AM

notto: Target Builder:

The breweries don't "store" this stuff. They want it off their land ASAP so they can get working on the next batch and the pig farmers want it in their pigs ASAP as it's free feed.

There's not a lot that can go wrong with freshly pasteurized grain.

Then they should be able to document that their short term storage and transportation is food safe.  That is what this regulation seeks to do.   They do 'store' it, even if for a short amount of time.  It is open to contamination if it is not treated as feed but instead is treated as garbage.


What is it going to get contaminated with?
 
2014-04-20 10:31:05 AM

austin_millbarge: Im not a raging "everything-the-government-does-is-bad" idiot... but this is stupid.

They'll attempt to stop this practice but cows standing in pools of their own feces is OK.


Cow feces is heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during digestion, which would kill any contaminants.
 
2014-04-20 10:31:56 AM
Cows produce methane (via flatus) and per previous threads here, cow farts are the greatest cause to gloBull warming since politician's speeches.
 
2014-04-20 10:34:33 AM

Kit Fister: The leftovers are essentially no different than a bowl of oatmeal with hops added to it.


Just for the sake of accuracy, there are no hops in the spent grain. The "mash", which is the step that converts the starches to sugars and leaves the spent grain, happens a few steps before the hops are used.
 
2014-04-20 10:34:56 AM

Kit Fister: In short: I want small government not because i necessarily think that a Corporatist private-sector society is better, but because the role of government itself should be limited to enforcing the common rules of society and not as an agent of enforcing any particular ideology


Somebody was paying attention in Civics class.  Wait, do they even teach that anymore?  Or is it all about espousing the benefits of the State and speaking fondly of the Dear Leader?
 
2014-04-20 10:35:14 AM
Target Builder:

What is it going to get contaminated with?

Mold, bacteria, other waste products, petro chemicals from trucks and equipment, whatever was in the last truckload of garbage, whatever was on the floor or ground where it was dumped.  There is a reason that feed grain is stored dry and monitored for contaminants.

Now, if the brewers can show that the path the 'feed' takes is not open to contamination, then it sounds like the FDA will listen.

What is it going to get contaminated with?  We can't know unless the brewers let us.
 
2014-04-20 10:44:57 AM

utah dude: that stuff is fermented and heated . it's totally safe and actually anti-microbe when they load it into trucks. some Republican is getting a fat bonus stapled to this bill.


It's heated, but not fermented.

It's still safe for consumption.  They're not even feeding it to humans, they're feeding it to cows.  You know, animals that stand around in a field, and eat grass where they shiat?
 
2014-04-20 10:45:21 AM

toadist: The Government knows best.      If it adds cost, as most Gov't regulation does,  then it is just the price we have to pay for 'safety'.        As a bonus, if beer is more expensive maybe people will cut back on it and we will have less accidents from drunk driving.

The people who think less regulation is good are just those crazies on the fringe.   Real mainstream people know that adding costs through regulations whether it is healthcare, manufacturing, farming, or mining is a good thing.


I'll agree to "bootstrappy", but holding judgement on "good".
 
2014-04-20 10:46:19 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: Please, will you just STFU and obey? It's almost like you don't get who is in charge here.


Yes, said the "Dictator and Chief"

/and just curious, why do the gov'tards continue to use the term "Chief"?

Isn't that term offensive to our "native brothers?"
 
2014-04-20 10:47:10 AM

DarkVader: utah dude: that stuff is fermented and heated . it's totally safe and actually anti-microbe when they load it into trucks. some Republican is getting a fat bonus stapled to this bill.

It's heated, but not fermented.

It's still safe for consumption.  They're not even feeding it to humans, they're feeding it to cows.  You know, animals that stand around in a field, and eat grass where they shiat?


If you fed it to humans, you call it Marmite or Vegemite.
 
2014-04-20 10:48:59 AM

You Are All Sheep: Peter von Nostrand: Yeah I can't imagine why they wouldn't want cows to consume waste

Yea we should just feed cows themselves instead

"It's a food grade product and heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during brewing, which would kill any contaminants. "

so really, this is something that has no issue whatsoever and is beneficial as this stuff won't end up in landfills instead.

But, you know, government knows best.


What we need is a tax on something completely unrelated to this product.  Why?  For the children, of course.
 
2014-04-20 10:49:28 AM

notto: austin_millbarge: Im not a raging "everything-the-government-does-is-bad" idiot... but this is stupid.

They'll attempt to stop this practice but cows standing in pools of their own feces is OK.

Cow feces is heated to about 170 degrees Fahrenheit during digestion, which would kill any contaminants.


Nowhere close to 170, actually.
 
2014-04-20 10:49:42 AM

notto: Target Builder:

What is it going to get contaminated with?

Mold, bacteria, other waste products, petro chemicals from trucks and equipment, whatever was in the last truckload of garbage, whatever was on the floor or ground where it was dumped.  There is a reason that feed grain is stored dry and monitored for contaminants.

Now, if the brewers can show that the path the 'feed' takes is not open to contamination, then it sounds like the FDA will listen.

What is it going to get contaminated with?  We can't know unless the brewers let us.


Most of the brewers around here have the farmers come in with their own trucks or containers and haul it home.  That would, in my mind, remove all liability from the brewery so long as it was still fresh when they called the farmer to come in and pick it up.

What the farmer does with it and how he handles it will be up to him.  I know an awful lot of farmers and I don't know of a one who thinks feeding contaminated feed is a good idea.  Nothing skinnies down your margins like spending all of your costs of production only to kill off the means of recouping any part of that investment just before it's salable.
 
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