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(NYPost)   Don't you hate it when you're vacationing in Puerto Rico and your child tries Jif peanut butter for the first time and likes it more than the organic peanut butter you get at Whole Foods so you lie to him and say you can only get Jif in Puerto Rico?   (nypost.com) divider line 207
    More: Silly, Jif, whole foods, Puerto Rico, dietary habits, helicopter parenting, Julie Gunlock  
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11985 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Apr 2014 at 9:31 AM (18 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-20 01:30:17 PM
Organic foods are OK, except that in the majority of the time, they're no more nourishing than the regular versions and much more expensive.

Consider this. There are 300 million people in the US and all like to eat. The food industry over the decades has worked hard to be able to produce enough food fast enough to meet the increasing demand. Through assorted ways, both practical and controversial, they have increased production in crops without having to expand the land use much, developed ways such crops can be harvested rapidly without the need of 50 or 60 workers in the fields and figured out how to get some crops to market before they become over ripe.

Massive development has wiped out thousands of acres of rich farmland to put up condos. It happened here with one of the best citrus groves in the US that happened to be planted in a unique form of rich soil and had been known the world over for taste. The descendents of the original grove owners decided that running a grove was hard work, even though it made them quite wealthy, so they sold the land to developers and most of it is now paved over.

As soon as organic food popped up, so did the price. I've had many a discussion with organic growers who have assured me that, through natural means, they have little loss from insects, disease and using organic fertilizers, have produced bountiful crops.

Yet I'm quite aware of the major production increase over the decades of regular foods due to insecticides, anti-fungal agents, synthetic fertilizers and hybridization. I've seen green bell peppers double in size and discovered we now have something like 20 versions of tomatoes. There are at least 6 versions of potatoes, many created by cloning. (The purple ones tend to have little taste though.)

The variety of apples has gone up since I was a kid -- with prices for the best ones going beyond the means of the average family.

I've visited Whole Foods, studied the prices and the inventory and walked out. I like to eat, but I like to be able to pay my rent also.

In the decades of my life, I have seen many healthy fads come and go, with lengthy discoveries defending how much better for you these things are, which you pay more for. I've also seen, time and time again, where such consumables were later disclosed as either actually being more harmful or no better than the usual, cheaper commercial products.

Copper bracelets have absolutely no effect on arthritic joints, yet people still buy them by the ton. Homeopathic medications which use serial dilution have no effect, aside from psychological, and folks still buy all sorts of versions. Some, like colloidal silver, can be consumed to such a degree for health benefits that they turn the skin blue -- and even after stopping the stuff, the hue never goes away.

Most of you probably don't recall the great health benefits from radiation in the early 50's. People ate, dank and wore radioactive products. They had radioactive urns for 'health water', small X-ray machines in shoe stores to help custom fit your shoes, combs were radium dipped, dinnerware was made with radium infused clays and painted with radioactive glazes.

Physicians, companies and the old version of Infomercials found scores of reasons why radioactive goods were healthy and invigorating for you, including sexually.

The stuff is off the market now, after thousands developed cancer. One guy, after drinking hundreds of small bottles of healthy radium water, had his lower jaw drop off. (Got depression glass? In the dark, use a black light to examine your collection. Those pieces that glow have radium in them. They're now called Radium Glass.>)

The 'juicing craze' was considered a major health benefit and while it actually did some good, it did not act as the cure-all that it has been heavily promoted as. It actually wasted a tremendous amount of food in the form of pulp the machines separated out.

People are eating better today than they did 60 years ago. Less wastage is going in the dumps because of new ways to get food to the market. Companies that used to throw tons of 'seconds' out now have found ways to recycle them into processed foods.

Vegetable processing plants have waste from trimming and culling the products. Other companies buy this waste and turn it into compost, which they sell to farmers and gardeners alike.

Yeah, we have contamination scares and concerns, but we're also living longer than our ancestors. Over loaded slaughter houses and imports of foreign meat account for the majority of such meats having to be handled at home as if they were a biohazard.

Various nations dump their waste into the oceans, which have come increasingly polluted, and have begun to affect the seafood we eat -- yet various organizations keep on promoting the many benefits of seafood, which has created more of a demand and increased prices.

Seafood can become contaminated even when grown in fish farms because many such farmers fail to keep enough fresh water flowing through them to wash out all of the waste. Plus many choose to use commercial feed, the contents of which vary.

Kids are healthier than they were in my parents time and even in my time. Even though the media has convince them that venturing out into real sunlight for the healthy effects is going to turn them into a festering mass of cancer.

The majority of your food is nourishing and healthy. There have actually been hybrids created that have increased nourishment. Your grocery stores offer much more in variation of vegetables and fruits than before, even during the off season.

BTW, high fructose corn syrup started being added to things when the cost of sugar imports increased due to tariffs. To continue to make profits high enough for the New Investors, many companies chose to switch sweeteners to the cheaper version.

One of the major sugar growers for the US, is in Florida and has periodically come under fire for labor violations, ecological damage and about anything else that can be tossed their way. So, their product went up in cost.

And these are just the commercially produced basic foods. You get into real problems when you start investigating the massive proliferation of 'fast foods', which, due to public desire, have more than tripled in companies, variation and serving size.

Shut the hell up and eat your food. People are still starving in Africa.
 
2014-04-20 01:30:43 PM
What the hell is everyone talking about with this "stirring" nonsense? Just get some God dammed Skippy and call it a day already.
 
2014-04-20 01:34:53 PM

Fano: Dirty J1: js34603: That's because Jif has a bunch of sugar in it.

But hey here's so more amazing news...kids like soda better than water. Guess we better let them drink soda and not tell them they can't have it. Or just realize kids are morons and don't know what's good for them, that's what makes them kids.

I agree, but why lie to a kid? Dont parents have the balls to tell kids the truth these days? Instead of "oh sorry, they only make it in Puerto Rico," you could simply say "because jif is bad for you."

They're afraid that if they ever say "No" their kids will hate them.


Bah.... It's a shame kids don't hear words like "no" or "you're a loser" until they are grown up. Then it becomes a huge shock.
 
2014-04-20 01:35:23 PM

dwade: I live in Lexington. The location of the only Jif factory so I'm getting a kick....


I live in Louisville. I've been past that factory a few times when I've gone to Lexington. On certain days, you can smell the roasting peanuts.
 
2014-04-20 01:38:30 PM

Dirty J1: Fano: Dirty J1: js34603: That's because Jif has a bunch of sugar in it.

But hey here's so more amazing news...kids like soda better than water. Guess we better let them drink soda and not tell them they can't have it. Or just realize kids are morons and don't know what's good for them, that's what makes them kids.

I agree, but why lie to a kid? Dont parents have the balls to tell kids the truth these days? Instead of "oh sorry, they only make it in Puerto Rico," you could simply say "because jif is bad for you."

They're afraid that if they ever say "No" their kids will hate them.

Bah.... It's a shame kids don't hear words like "no" or "you're a loser" until they are grown up. Then it becomes a huge shock.



Which is why I drive around grade schools with a megaphone shouting "NO! YOU ARE A LOSER!" at the top of my lungs.

Well, actually, I just do that for fun, but it's good to know it has a positive effect on society.
 
2014-04-20 01:41:19 PM
My sister-in-law told her kid when he was 3 that bacon was only in stores by grandma's house.

He was very excited around 5 or 6 when shopping with mom that he discovered bacon was finally sold around him.
 
2014-04-20 01:43:06 PM

Occam's Disposable Razor: buckler: umad: I only eat organic. I don't know how any of you can stand to eat food that isn't carbon-based.

Are you kidding? Silicon and methane-based macaroons are delish!

[www.smbc-comics.com image 445x1500]



Came for this, leaving satisfied

/ hosting vegan / hippie sis in law today . . . no ham for Easter, dammit
 
2014-04-20 01:47:49 PM
Murdoch hack invents email, FARK takes it as fact.
 
2014-04-20 01:53:57 PM

dletter: My sister-in-law told her kid when he was 3 that bacon was only in stores by grandma's house.

He was very excited around 5 or 6 when shopping with mom that he discovered bacon was finally sold around him.


How hard is it to explain to a kid what bad eating habits cause?
"You like playing with your friends at recess don't you? If you eat the unhealthy foods, it'll be really hard to play and you'll just be tired all the time, and nobody will want to play with you" Sure it's a stretch but it's not a downright lie.
 
2014-04-20 02:13:41 PM

PanicMan: Fun fact: kids don't have income or transportation and have to eat whatever you tell them to.  If you tell them "no", they have to live with it.


That's no way to make friends.
 
2014-04-20 02:14:58 PM

davebarnes: Jif sucks.
Skippy (the adult peanut butter) is great.


Yeah, I like the Skippy Natural - no sketchy chemicals, no replacing peanut oil with other oil....but it's actually smooth, and doesn't separate very much (and has enough sugar to taste good).
 
2014-04-20 02:18:37 PM

pxlboy: lack of warmth: maelstrom0370: Maybe it's the "lying to kids" part, but something about this article reminded me of this unrelated CSB:
We used to live on Mackinaw Island (Michigan thing) and it's quite the Amish playground. Anyways, me and the boy child (he was about 3 at the time) we're sitting in the park waiting for Mrs Maelstrom0370 to get out of work. I'm sitting next to this Amish woman while boy child chases sea gulls. My mom (boy child's Doodah) had told him they were chickens. All birds were chickens to him at this point. I was laughing and we were talking about him chasing those chickens. He runs off and Amish woman looks over at me questioningly. I explain the chicken thing and she nods and says "Well, he's too young to understand the lie"

No matter the reason, lying to kids is the worst thing parents can do to children.  It bugs me that people do that.  If I tell them something, they should be able to trust me that even if I'm wrong, it is what I know the truth to be.  I almost want to laugh and cry at the same time when it all comes back on parents later, and the kid goes in different direction because they can't trust anything their parents said to them.  Even if you are telling them not to do something bad, explain it using truth, as oppose to "because you could die" if you stay out late or some other rule that would not cause death.

This and the above post by PsychTherapist explain that nicely. Young parents are trying to be friends with their kids instead of parents.

You can be friends when they're older.


Unless you lie to them when they're children. No one wants to be friends with a liar.
 
2014-04-20 02:37:36 PM

ThighsofGlory: Unless you lie to them when they're children. No one wants to be friends with a liar.


Many politicians would disagree with you.
 
2014-04-20 02:38:02 PM

megarian: perigee: Do men do any of this crap? Or are they just cowed into submission to the line by the mad harpies they foolishly married and shot seed into?

It's so upsetting that men are forced to marry and shoot seed into these harpies.


Yes. Men do this, too. And it's just as obnoxious.


That's why, male or female, one consciously avoids pretentious a'holes, and damn sure doesn't marry one.
 
2014-04-20 02:42:41 PM

happydude45: megarian: perigee: Do men do any of this crap? Or are they just cowed into submission to the line by the mad harpies they foolishly married and shot seed into?

It's so upsetting that men are forced to marry and shoot seed into these harpies.


Yes. Men do this, too. And it's just as obnoxious.

That's why, male or female, one consciously avoids pretentious a'holes, and damn sure doesn't marry one.


Exaaaaaaaaactly.

But, you know, stupid wimmin forcing marriage and babbys cause b*tches be crazy WHY WON'T ANY OF THESE STUPID C*NTS DATE ME I'M SO NICE?!?
 
2014-04-20 02:51:51 PM

megarian: happydude45: megarian: perigee: Do men do any of this crap? Or are they just cowed into submission to the line by the mad harpies they foolishly married and shot seed into?

It's so upsetting that men are forced to marry and shoot seed into these harpies.


Yes. Men do this, too. And it's just as obnoxious.

That's why, male or female, one consciously avoids pretentious a'holes, and damn sure doesn't marry one.

Exaaaaaaaaactly.

But, you know, stupid wimmin forcing marriage and babbys cause b*tches be crazy WHY WON'T ANY OF THESE STUPID C*NTS DATE ME I'M SO NICE?!?


You crack me up, and are spot on. When I was single, a condom prevented any unintended genetic consequences.

Be nice to everyone, but only associate with the drama-free variety of humans.
 
2014-04-20 02:58:14 PM
My favorite cereal:
www.calvin-and-hobbes.org
 
2014-04-20 03:02:58 PM

theorellior: Mid_mo_mad_man: Anybody here grow up with government peanut butter? Came in a 5 pound can. It was the best.

A friend of mine actually got government cheese when he was a kid; he said that shiat was the hook-up. Best cheese he's ever tasted.


My grandmother got that stuff and dumped it on us, it was flat out nasty.  We'd say thank you, and discretely trash it when she left the house.
 
2014-04-20 03:12:18 PM

whatsupchuck: I just buy a bunch of these and eat the chocolate part away first.


Eh, I just bought a ton of the Newman's Own organic peanut butter cups for cheaper since they were near expiration. They're also much much smaller, so it's taken a month to eat away enough chocolate to make a single PBJ on a gluten-free sea-saltine cracker. But the sacrifices you make to stay hip, I guess.
 
2014-04-20 03:32:15 PM

pxlboy: lack of warmth: maelstrom0370: Maybe it's the "lying to kids" part, but something about this article reminded me of this unrelated CSB:
We used to live on Mackinaw Island (Michigan thing) and it's quite the Amish playground. Anyways, me and the boy child (he was about 3 at the time) we're sitting in the park waiting for Mrs Maelstrom0370 to get out of work. I'm sitting next to this Amish woman while boy child chases sea gulls. My mom (boy child's Doodah) had told him they were chickens. All birds were chickens to him at this point. I was laughing and we were talking about him chasing those chickens. He runs off and Amish woman looks over at me questioningly. I explain the chicken thing and she nods and says "Well, he's too young to understand the lie"

No matter the reason, lying to kids is the worst thing parents can do to children.  It bugs me that people do that.  If I tell them something, they should be able to trust me that even if I'm wrong, it is what I know the truth to be.  I almost want to laugh and cry at the same time when it all comes back on parents later, and the kid goes in different direction because they can't trust anything their parents said to them.  Even if you are telling them not to do something bad, explain it using truth, as oppose to "because you could die" if you stay out late or some other rule that would not cause death.

This and the above post by PsychTherapist explain that nicely. Young parents are trying to be friends with their kids instead of parents.

You can be friends when they're older.


Seriously, both of you, lightenup,Francis.jpg

My (now 8 yr old) boy child knows the difference between chickens and seagulls and doesn't regard me suspiciously when I tell him something. You go right a head and keep thinking that seagull chickens are the downfall of the parent/child dynamic if it makes you feel better though.
 
2014-04-20 03:34:11 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Anybody here grow up with government peanut butter? Came in a 5 pound can. It was the best.


We used to get Skippy in big cans like that.  Used to slather on a tablespoon for every bite I took from an apple.

Damn, now I want to get me a big tub of peanut butter and a couple loaves of French bread for dippin'.
 
2014-04-20 03:36:23 PM

stuffy: The real fun starts when these kids go out into the world on there own, and discover FOOD.


imgs.xkcd.com

When I was in my early 20s, I ate a whole lot of crap.  Fortunately, this is also the time when metabolism allows one to eat two gallons of ice cream in one sitting.
 
2014-04-20 03:36:44 PM

Ker_Thwap: theorellior: Mid_mo_mad_man: Anybody here grow up with government peanut butter? Came in a 5 pound can. It was the best.

A friend of mine actually got government cheese when he was a kid; he said that shiat was the hook-up. Best cheese he's ever tasted.

My grandmother got that stuff and dumped it on us, it was flat out nasty.  We'd say thank you, and discretely trash it when she left the house.


I thought the government cheese and pb were good.
 
2014-04-20 03:43:25 PM

Mister Peejay: stuffy: The real fun starts when these kids go out into the world on there own, and discover FOOD.

[imgs.xkcd.com image 434x376]

When I was in my early 20s, I ate a whole lot of crap.  Fortunately, this is also the time when metabolism allows one to eat two gallons of ice cream in one sitting.


I don't mean this as a call out or anything; but I see people say this all the time....

Is there any medical evidence to support it?
 
2014-04-20 03:45:05 PM

Mister Peejay: Mid_mo_mad_man: Anybody here grow up with government peanut butter? Came in a 5 pound can. It was the best.

We used to get Skippy in big cans like that.  Used to slather on a tablespoon for every bite I took from an apple.

Damn, now I want to get me a big tub of peanut butter and a couple loaves of French bread for dippin'.


I grew up with government peanut butter, and oatmeal, and cheese - Welfare kid throughout most of the 70's. The peanut butter was OK, and I grew to hate oatmeal. I miss the cheese most of all, oddly enough.
 
2014-04-20 03:49:22 PM

Son of Thunder: PsychoTherapist: What the fark happened to "I'm glad you liked it but we will not be buying it"?

About eighty percent of the "child and adolescent psychotherapy" I do is really behavioral parent training (and it would be higher if I were not seeing so many adolescents). And ninety-nine percent of the behavioral parent training is unwinding escape-maintained behaviors like this. Parents do all kinds of unhelpful things that are motivated by the desire to escape a conflict with their kid. Once we get that sorted out and remind them that yes, they really are the parents in this household, most of the Deep Emotional Problems they brought their kids in for therapy about sort themselves right the fark out. Not all of them, mind you. But a lot.

I'm not a fan of the Food Nazi / Collectors of Allergies phenomenon (which is more escape-maintained behavior, in this case to escape anxiety), but the parenting thing is more critical to me.

From a research psychologist to a practicing psychologist: THANK YOU!

Parents, you make take the word of two psychologists here: you will not FUBAR your children's psyches by saying "no" to them when the situation calls for it.


You're welcome, colleague. Keep the faith. And keep doing the work, even if no one listens, not even most of us clinical weenies.

I like how after fifty years of sleep and circadian rhythm research, a few, a tiny handful, of high schools are starting the day later. If everyone did that I think about 25% of my patient census would be sorted out right there.
 
2014-04-20 03:59:45 PM

meow said the dog: The conversation did not have the happening and was the made up thing for the story of this.


I actually understand what you said for once, and yeah, this
 
2014-04-20 04:07:31 PM

perigee: Do men do any of this crap? Or are they just cowed into submission to the line by the mad harpies they foolishly married and shot seed into?


Pretty much.  Some men get on board with this kind of weird shiat, but only because their lives are way to comfortable so this is what they do to feel like they are challenging themselves, eat organic or become vegans, or something.

And I learned a long time ago to never trust a vegetarian.
 
2014-04-20 04:08:06 PM
too, even
 
2014-04-20 04:14:34 PM

perigee: Do men do any of this crap? Or are they just cowed into submission to the line by the mad harpies they foolishly married and shot seed into?


Pretty much a women's thing.

A male cousin of mine married a Vegan and the promise was that the children they had would be raised Vegan, but at the point that they wanted to try meat dishes they would be allowed to do so and make choices of their own.  Well . . . funny how that changed when the oldest kid reached about 10 years old.  After years of seeing dad eat dishes like roast duck, ham sandwiches, etc. mom suddenly reneged and said NO the kids can't have meat.

Unsurprisingly, this is now driving a serious wedge into their marriage with the trust issues.  Dad held to his promise for 10 years and finds out mom was lying about what she said she would agree the children could do for themselves.

From the lying mom in the article, I can't wait to see the day that her child supervision discipline in the supermarket breaks down and the kid finds himself staring at lots of jars of Jif (and Skippy, Peter Pan, etc.) on the shelf at the supermarket.  Finding out mom lied will be a big trust issue, and then to find out she lied big time as the kid finds Jif at multiple/every supermarket?
 
2014-04-20 04:16:37 PM

Mirandized: I love how a bunch of the early responders were sort of defending organics, even though there is not a shred of evidence that you can measure a difference between organics and non-organics. Peanut butter tastes better to most people with a little salt and sugar in it. As JerseyTim pointed out, you can buy peanut butter without anything added without having to resort to organics. I sometimes buy peanut butter without additives, but I usually end up adding salt.

Forbidden Doughnut: Not really on the "organic foods" train, but organic milk tastes WAY better than conventional milk does, IMHO.

/ possibly because it's relatively local (in my case), and hasn't been stored for very long...
// in this case, I'm happy to pay more $$$ for a superior product

Milk has been pasteurized (cooked) and homogenized. That makes it taste entirely different. If you buy milk locally you might be getting unpasteurized milk from certified non-TB cows. I used to work at a cannery, and guess what: tomatoes, greens or carrots tasted different after they were cooked and canned. This is not an effect of organics versus non-organics.

/bottom line--organics is a money grab.


You speak like someone who thinks the whole point of organics is because one tastes different than the other. That's not the point at all.
 
2014-04-20 04:23:15 PM

mrmopar5287: perigee: Do men do any of this crap? Or are they just cowed into submission to the line by the mad harpies they foolishly married and shot seed into?

Pretty much a women's thing.

A male cousin of mine married a Vegan and the promise was that the children they had would be raised Vegan, but at the point that they wanted to try meat dishes they would be allowed to do so and make choices of their own.  Well . . . funny how that changed when the oldest kid reached about 10 years old.  After years of seeing dad eat dishes like roast duck, ham sandwiches, etc. mom suddenly reneged and said NO the kids can't have meat.

Unsurprisingly, this is now driving a serious wedge into their marriage with the trust issues.  Dad held to his promise for 10 years and finds out mom was lying about what she said she would agree the children could do for themselves.

From the lying mom in the article, I can't wait to see the day that her child supervision discipline in the supermarket breaks down and the kid finds himself staring at lots of jars of Jif (and Skippy, Peter Pan, etc.) on the shelf at the supermarket.  Finding out mom lied will be a big trust issue, and then to find out she lied big time as the kid finds Jif at multiple/every supermarket?


I don't see that happening too soon since it sounds like the mother in the article does most of her shopping at Whole Foods.
 
2014-04-20 04:42:27 PM
Remember when Annette Funicello was hawking Skippy? "No peanut butter is more nutritious than Skippy." (That's because they're all made out of peanuts)

/I'm eating peanuts and getting a kick out of this
 
2014-04-20 04:53:36 PM

Abox: When I was a kid my mom tried replacing my Peter Pan Smooth with a crunchy, unspreadable, separated oil concoction.  It did not go well.


There's that brand of peanut-butter-in-a-bucket that showed up in the homes of all my friends when I was a kid. Nasty stuff. Welfare peanut butter, we called it, because there was a direct correlation between its presence and household income.

My best friend across the street practically lived on the stuff because his single mum needed to free up her income for smokes, beer, complaining to the landlord about conditions in her apartment in exchange for breaks on the rent, screaming at store clerks for not taking her three-cents-off coupons, and looking for a huzzbind. First night he had dinner at our house, he looked at the (relatively average; spaghetti and meatballs with mash on the side) dinner like it was a Thanksgiving spread.

I imagine if that kid ever got a jar of Jif his head would explode.
 
2014-04-20 05:01:01 PM
And one day they will all die just like everyone else.
 
2014-04-20 05:18:44 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Mister Peejay: stuffy: The real fun starts when these kids go out into the world on there own, and discover FOOD.

[imgs.xkcd.com image 434x376]

When I was in my early 20s, I ate a whole lot of crap.  Fortunately, this is also the time when metabolism allows one to eat two gallons of ice cream in one sitting.

I don't mean this as a call out or anything; but I see people say this all the time....

Is there any medical evidence to support it?


Perhaps metabolism is not the right word.  Certainly I have noticed a trend toward requiring more moderation, fortunately, this is kind of a self-enforcing thing.  For instance, to carry on the ice cream tip, the time I was at the store when I was 30 and saw a quart of chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream, remembered old times, bought it, scarfed it down, then spent the rest of the night throwing up and generally feeling miserable.  Okay, add another thing to the list of things I used to do but don't want to do anymore.

More recently, I found that the reason why I generally felt exhausted all of the time was some sort of low level lactose intolerance.  Cut out all milk/cheese from my diet and my energy levels have never been better.  Appetite has picked up tremendously, too.  (I do supplement calcium, more out of paranoia than anything)

I think this is why old farts like scotch.  Your body changes as well as your tastes.  I used to react physically to any kind of liquor.  Now, i find bourbon to be a wonderful beverage but scotch still makes me cringe and wince.  Give me 20-30 years and I'll probably be rattling off unpronounceable Gaelic names like nobody's business.
 
2014-04-20 05:26:56 PM
The whole "organic" label is a crock of shiat.  Many organic farmers use animal manure on their crops.  The animals that produce the manure have been wormed and vaccinated.  The chemical substances found in animal wormers can remain in manure and soil for up to three months.  Therefore, organic food fertilized with most animal manure is not chemical free.  "Organic" food just cost a lot more and has very powerful lobbyists.
 
2014-04-20 06:15:36 PM

Mirandized: I love how a bunch of the early responders were sort of defending organics, even though there is not a shred of evidence that you can measure a difference between organics and non-organics. Peanut butter tastes better to most people with a little salt and sugar in it. As JerseyTim pointed out, you can buy peanut butter without anything added without having to resort to organics. I sometimes buy peanut butter without additives, but I usually end up adding salt.

Forbidden Doughnut: Not really on the "organic foods" train, but organic milk tastes WAY better than conventional milk does, IMHO.

/ possibly because it's relatively local (in my case), and hasn't been stored for very long...
// in this case, I'm happy to pay more $$$ for a superior product

Milk has been pasteurized (cooked heated very quickly to the point it kills the nastier germs in it) and homogenized. That makes it taste entirely different. If you buy milk locally you might be getting unpasteurized milk from certified non-TB cows. I used to work at a cannery, and guess what: tomatoes, greens or carrots tasted different after they were cooked and canned. This is not an effect of organics versus non-organics.

/bottom line--organics is a money grab.


I will also note that locavorism is better than going "organic only" (and probably the best option would be your own victory garden if space allows--and yes, even if you're in an apartment you CAN get tomatoes and peppers via large potted plants).

That said...please, please, please don't encourage people to go all pro-raw-milk:

a) Raw dairy products are probably the greatest preventable source of gastrointestinal illnesses and food poisoning in the pre-pasteurisation era, and are still a major cause of foodborne illness (right along with veggie-based foodborne illnesses, to be honest, and for much the same reasons as we'll get into in just a bit).

b) TB is among the less common of the very serious things you DO have to worry about with raw milk no matter how Bessie is certified or raised.  (For those who have never actually lived on or near a cattle farm: Cattle are functionally incontinent.  They will shiat and piss whenever and wherever, including occasionally in the milking stall itself, and even if Bessie has her teats disinfected every time she is milked (note: all dairies do this) and even if the equipment is disinfected between uses it can STILL get contaminated just from the E. coli resident in the air and the ground and in the general environment because cow shiat still gets everywhere.

c) The most common foodborne illness people would get from cow's milk in the pre-pasteurisation era was...not TB, but what we now recognise as foodborne diarrheal illness (primarily E. coli, but also Camphylobacter and the occasional fun viral illness like norovirus and rotavirus).  It actually had a cute little name of "summer sickness", and it was pretty much expected that kids would get the screaming shiats every summer from unpasteurised milk.  I really don't expect it was all that much fun for the kids in question, much as it's probably not so fun for people to get the screaming shiats on a Poop Cruise.

On a darker note, summertime diarrheal illness linked to consumption of raw milk was a not-infrequent killer of kids in the pre-pasteurisation era (enough that even back in the 20s--before pasteurisation was a thing in much of the US--parenting manuals implored parents to boil the everliving shiat out of milk, cooking it FAR more than the short exposure that milk receives in the pasteurisation process, in an attempt to kill the germs that unavoidably found their way in aforementioned milk).

Seeing as the Summer Milk Shiats are even more distant in the memory of Americans than the whole concept of entire towns going full-on President Madagascar because of polio epidemics (and yes, before the Salk vaccine, entire towns WOULD order "SHUT.  DOWN.  EVERYTHING" in response to polio epidemics because polio was just that farking horrible of a disease), it's not surprising to see folks forgetting about the whole "E. coli in the moo juice" thing.

(And on an even darker note--back then, they didn't have a whole lot documented re haemorrhagic enterotoxin-producing E. coli strains.  Now, we tend to have a known outbreak of foodborne illness involving an enterotoxin-producing strain of E. coli that can make you bleed out and/or literally piss out your kidneys.  Yes, these tend to be connected to...wait for it...beef.)

d) The whole reason we have bad issues with veggie-borne foodborne illness is the same reason kids got the Summer Shiats--poop getting into the soil, poop actually getting into the water supply and being taken up by the plants (there's a reason a LOT of these outbreaks tend to be traced to leafy veggies).  Part of it is due to use of animal-based fertiliser not properly treated, part of it is due to US farmers (who don't actually want to pay anyone a living wage to do so) using itinerant immigrant labour...who typically aren't provided porta-potties so they literally have to shiat and pick...and who tend to be from areas of the world with rather different E. coli strains in their poop that tend to throw the delicate guts of Americans into screaming fits (Montezuma's Revenge, now at your dinner table!).

e) Getting back to the supposed "cooking" of milk--pasteurisation is explicitly designed to heat milk only up enough to kill the nasties in it without denaturing it too much (certainly far less than the OTHER method they had to kill nasties in milk back then which involved literally boiling the shiat out of it).  We could probably do something with irradiation, but the same folks singing the praises of raw milk would almost certainly launch a Class 5 Shiatstorm over the concept of OH NO YOU'RE NUKING MILK!!!!1one!  (Seriously, irradiating foodstuffs to nuke the bad germs without denaturing proteins at all has been around for the better part of a decade or two...and is not available widely because the Crunchy Granola Followers of Nurgle who don't get their kids their shots and give them raw milk would practically accuse you of giving their kid Liquid Chernobyl if you sold irradiated milk.)

f) Also, as an aside--the main thing that changes the flavour profile in most store-bought milk is NOT pasteurisation but homogenisation.  It is possible in many areas to get pasteurised, but non-homogenised milk (where the cream still floats to the top)--those I know who've had raw milk and pasteurised non-homogenised milk will note they are indistinguishable.

There are also differences in flavour profiles based on the breed of cattle.  Many of the "raw-milk share" dairies tend to specialise in heritage breeds or (at most) in Jersey cattle, which tend to produce a richer, more flavourful milk higher in butterfat.  Most commercial dairies use Holstein cattle which have less butterfat in their milk.

/actually have an aunt-in-law who raises champion Jersey cattle, very well taken care of, clean, pampered, best treated moos I've seen (because happy moos give good milk)
//her response on whether she'd drink raw milk can be summed up best as "Hell no, are you farking mad, I KNOW that cows shiat on everything"
 
2014-04-20 06:57:41 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Ker_Thwap: theorellior: Mid_mo_mad_man: Anybody here grow up with government peanut butter? Came in a 5 pound can. It was the best.

A friend of mine actually got government cheese when he was a kid; he said that shiat was the hook-up. Best cheese he's ever tasted.

My grandmother got that stuff and dumped it on us, it was flat out nasty.  We'd say thank you, and discretely trash it when she left the house.

I thought the government cheese and pb were good.


Both are great - its the meat in the can that not even a dog can eat
 
2014-04-20 07:11:40 PM
Great Porn Dragon:poop actually getting into the water supply and being taken up by the plants (

That was a really cool read until I got to that line. Poop in water gets inside plants. You got a link that explains that? I've eaten a lot of plants. Since I don't recall ever eating poops, I'd imagine that I'd probably notice the taste difference. oh! Wait! Poops is everywhere! Maybe all plants have the taste of poop.

But the water comes from forests. It drains from everywhere. There are many kinds of poops in the forest. Does this mean that all plants have MANY DIFFERENT kinds of poop inside them? Does, for example, bear poop inside a plant make it taste of bear vs. cow? You have opened my eyes to a world of poop infused vegetables that II did not know even existed.

funnyasduck.net
 
2014-04-20 07:48:13 PM
Hmmm... the state is instructing me to avoid certain fish in some river zones and not to fish at all in other rivers thanks to the runoff of petisiced and fertilizers from farms upstream. So there is some impact.
 
2014-04-20 08:00:01 PM
Great Porn Dragon:
(deleted for brevity)

The True Raw Milk Believers will just raise their hands and tell you to get out of here with that junk science.  Their grandparents and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents lived just fine without that adulterated, tasteless swill!  Just ignore that half of those peoples' siblings probably died...
 
2014-04-20 08:13:34 PM

Weatherkiss: ThighsofGlory: Unless you lie to them when they're children. No one wants to be friends with a liar.

Many politicians would disagree with you.


They're lying.
 
2014-04-20 08:13:47 PM

70Ford: Great Porn Dragon:poop actually getting into the water supply and being taken up by the plants (

That was a really cool read until I got to that line. Poop in water gets inside plants. You got a link that explains that? I've eaten a lot of plants. Since I don't recall ever eating poops, I'd imagine that I'd probably notice the taste difference. oh! Wait! Poops is everywhere! Maybe all plants have the taste of poop.

But the water comes from forests. It drains from everywhere. There are many kinds of poops in the forest. Does this mean that all plants have MANY DIFFERENT kinds of poop inside them? Does, for example, bear poop inside a plant make it taste of bear vs. cow? You have opened my eyes to a world of poop infused vegetables that II did not know even existed.

[funnyasduck.net image 600x400]


There's good poop and bad poop in that regards.  You'll notice there isn't a market for cat poop based fertilizer.  Whoever picks up your trash probably advises you to double bag your cat poop before disposing of it and especially not to flush it.
 
2014-04-20 08:28:17 PM

DittoToo: There's good poop and bad poop in that regards. You'll notice there isn't a market for cat poop based fertilizer. Whoever picks up your trash probably advises you to double bag your cat poop before disposing of it and especially not to flush it.


Uh oh, there goes years of training my cats to use the toilet.  Thanks a lot, garbage dudes!
 
2014-04-20 08:37:10 PM

BumpInTheNight: DittoToo: There's good poop and bad poop in that regards. You'll notice there isn't a market for cat poop based fertilizer. Whoever picks up your trash probably advises you to double bag your cat poop before disposing of it and especially not to flush it.

Uh oh, there goes years of training my cats to use the toilet.  Thanks a lot, garbage dudes!


My bad, your water authority probably advises not to flush and the trash service recommends double bagging.
 
2014-04-20 08:58:59 PM
Forbidden Doughnut:

Not really on the "organic foods" train, but organic milk tastes WAY better than conventional milk does, IMHO.

/ possibly because it's relatively local (in my case), and hasn't been stored for very long...
// in this case, I'm happy to pay more $$$ for a superior product


Yeah, milk you can taste. The real predictor to me for animal products, though, is it factory or fresh-local / free range? Not necessarily organic. I've had eggs from my nephew's chickens that beat (ha) the supermarket kind to hell & back. Take a local chicken and a supermarket chicken (even organic), season them only with salt and pepper, roast 'em. There is a HUGE taste difference.

Fresh fruit and veg, if there's only organic vs. non, not a lot of taste difference.  Fresh and local, though, and not grown to the impossible sizes that clog the supermarkets now, there is definitely a solid taste difference.
 
2014-04-20 10:16:46 PM
Hilarious.  I put organic food nuts just a step or two above the anti-vaccine set: going way out of their way to avoid something completely safe based on nothing more than rumor and assumption that modern equals bad.  They'll swear up and down that organic is safer and healthier even though that's never been proven by anyone, ever.  Then they'll cling to, "Well even so, it still tastes so much better because it's all natural."  But give them a taste test (as Penn and Teller did - Google it) and non-organic usually wins because it's often larger and more robust than organic.  Plenty of nutrients and lack of pests has that effect on produce.  Who'd have guessed?

But whatever.  At least they're not hurting anyone.  (The only thing that puts them above the anti-vacc nuts.)  Other than their bank accounts, that is.  So when I see them in the grocery store I just point and laugh.
 
2014-04-20 10:20:39 PM

ThighsofGlory: Weatherkiss: ThighsofGlory: Unless you lie to them when they're children. No one wants to be friends with a liar.

Many politicians would disagree with you.

They're lying.


ic.pics.livejournal.com
 
2014-04-20 11:25:18 PM
The ease with which people lie to children is disgusting. The sad part is they often remember all this nonsense as adults.
 
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