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(Zero Hedge)   While the US argues over $10 minimum wage, the Swiss propose $25/franc or $28.50/USD   (zerohedge.com) divider line 115
    More: Spiffy, USD, Switzerland, state interventions, Novartis, Nestle SA, wage earners, University of Basel  
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1044 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Apr 2014 at 2:12 PM (23 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-19 11:46:26 AM
Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).
 
2014-04-19 11:53:16 AM

themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).


Like it, but you just put property owners in control of the economy.

If more people can afford their own home/apartment then property values skyrocket and so goes the minimum wage.
 
2014-04-19 12:01:31 PM
The Swiss can do this because they are a civilized country.  This move of course will increase economic activity and overall prosperity, not the least of which will be studies demonstrating why this can't possibly work elsewhere.

Gotta nip ideas like this in the bud, before they spread.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-19 12:06:37 PM
Did anyone read about Oklahoma making it illegal for cities to set a minimum wage?

That study claiming that we are really an oligarchy is looking more and more accurate.
 
2014-04-19 12:11:36 PM

enry: themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).

Like it, but you just put property owners in control of the economy.

If more people can afford their own home/apartment then property values skyrocket and so goes the minimum wage.


I'd say that property owners already control the economy. Unfortunately we'll probably end up gutting the entire New Deal before people accept something like the above.
 
2014-04-19 12:13:32 PM
Also, I'd increase overtime pay to 3x base pay (from 1.5x), making it less expensive for employers to just hire someone else. There, I solved our employment problems too.
 
2014-04-19 12:27:51 PM
Why not make it $100?

/reducto ad absurdum (sp)
 
2014-04-19 12:28:23 PM

themindiswatching: Also, I'd increase overtime pay to 3x base pay (from 1.5x), making it less expensive for employers to just hire someone else. There, I solved our employment problems too.


Plus, mandate that non-hourly employees be paid for overtime work as well.  That way companies can't load up their salaried and performance-based compensation employees with extra work for no extra pay.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-19 12:33:54 PM
If we had a guaranteed basic income we wouldn't need a minimum wage.
 
2014-04-19 12:45:50 PM

vpb: If we had a guaranteed basic income we wouldn't need a minimum wage.


Unless it was per-city, you'd still have situations where that basic income isn't enough to live on. For example, most of California.
 
2014-04-19 12:49:57 PM

themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).


In the most inhospitable county in Medieval England, the peasants had to put in fewer days' work per year to pay off all their debts to the land owner for housing, etc. than we in the modern age do. And they had 80 national holidays per year!
 
2014-04-19 12:51:34 PM

doglover: themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).

In the most inhospitable county in Medieval England, the peasants had to put in fewer days' work per year to pay off all their debts to the land owner for housing, etc. than we in the modern age do. And they had 80 national holidays per year!


Medieval Peasants
 
2014-04-19 12:55:31 PM

vpb: If we had a guaranteed basic income we wouldn't need a minimum wage.


If one chooses not to work or contribute in any way to society, then they should reap squalor.  I'm all for reforming unemployment, and expanding social welfare, but only if people look for work and/or volunteer for their community full-time.  And if you're obese then I think you shouldn't get food stamps.  Minimum wage should also be tied to the cost of housing, since that's the most significant portion of one's living expenses.  Anyone who works full-time and is eligible for food stamps should have their food stamps subsidized directly from their employer at 5x the cost.  Make it hurt the employers to have their workers on food stamps.

A guaranteed basic income is Marxist, stoner-logic bullshiat.  People need a safety net.  Some people also need a kick in the ass.
 
2014-04-19 01:01:23 PM

Fark It: If one chooses not to work or contribute in any way to society, then they should reap squalor.


Who actually does that?

What we've got now is people contributing tons and tons still getting squalor. Unacceptable.
 
2014-04-19 01:02:27 PM

TuteTibiImperes: themindiswatching: Also, I'd increase overtime pay to 3x base pay (from 1.5x), making it less expensive for employers to just hire someone else. There, I solved our employment problems too.

Plus, mandate that non-hourly employees be paid for overtime work as well.  That way companies can't load up their salaried and performance-based compensation employees with extra work for no extra pay.


The two of you should get together and start a newsletter. I think there might be a fairly substantial market.
 
2014-04-19 01:03:50 PM
$28.50/USD?  That's a pretty good return on investment for USDs, assuming the $ also means USD.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-19 01:06:51 PM
Fark It:
If one chooses not to work or contribute in any way to society, then they should reap squalor.  I'm all for reforming unemployment, and expanding social welfare, but only if people look for work and/or volunteer for their community full-time.  And if you're obese then I think you shouldn't get food stamps.  Minimum wage should also be tied to the cost of housing, since that's the most significant portion of one's living expenses.  Anyone who works full-time and is eligible for food stamps should have their food stamps subsidized directly from their employer at 5x the cost.  Make it hurt the employers to have their workers on food stamps.

A guaranteed basic income is Marxist, stoner-logic bullshiat.  People need a safety net.  Some people also need a kick in the ass.


Yes, I saw the Marxist credentials of the guy who wrote the article, and the idea is popular with Marxists like Milton Friedman.

There is no way around the fact that there are more people who want to work than there are jobs.  Most people would work rather than live on a minimal income and employers would have to pay people enough to make it worth their while to work.  The labor market would solve the difference in cost of living in places like California for that reason.  If employers don't want to pay people enough to make it worth their while they will move somewhere cheaper.

When you have people on both sides of the political spectrum agreeing on something like this it's pretty obviously a practical idea.
 
2014-04-19 01:08:28 PM

vpb: When you have people on both sides of the political spectrum agreeing on something like this it's pretty obviously a practical idea.


Unless Obama comes out in support of it, then we need to oppose him at all costs.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-19 01:09:41 PM
doglover:

What we've got now is people contributing tons and tons still getting squalor. Unacceptable.

There are volunteers who contribute without asking for anything in return.  The idea that most people are lazy parasites is just people who had nothing to take pride in inventing an imaginary superiority because they need to feel superior to someone.

I think that's the basis of a lot of the racism and other bigotry out there.
 
2014-04-19 01:28:44 PM
I've never liked a minimum wage as a method of keeping people out of poverty. The problem with it is that it always needs to be raised, and for that to happen there has to be continual approval by congress, which has proved difficult. It also disproportionately hurts small business. Raising minimum wage to 20 an hour would be easy for Apple, but would make it hard for a small business with loans to make ends meet.

Lastly, it doesn't address wealth inequality. Wealth inequality has proved to not just about creating a stronger healthy middle class, but it's also become a source of inequality in our democracy, making it even more necessary for us to address the wealth gap.

What I see as a long lasting fix is a three tier solution:

1. Pay ratios - establish a ratio between the highest paid and lowest paid employees in companies, should account for total income including stock options. This has a symbiotic relationship with point number two in that it won't allow profit sharing to go disproportionately to a group of employees.

2. Progressive profit sharing - The more a company makes, the higher % of profit they must dedicate to payroll. This places an emphasis on paying the employees ahead of shareholders, thus reestablishing the balance between labor and capital. It also has a benefit of making it more difficult for large companies to grow thus helping reduce the amount of oligopolies, which currently dominate markets.

3. A guaranteed basic income - Automatically kicks in to everyone that makes below a certain income. Helps small businesses that are not yet profitable keep employees, and makes markets more competitive, and less based on sheer capital.

All this still isn't perfect, as there are two other areas that must be addressed, outside contractors and foreign competition. For foreign competition,we'd need to abandon free trade and place tariffs on imported goods that are based on what the mean of the same good or service produced in America. As for contractors they'd need to have a minimum pay equivalent to what company is currently paying for that position internally, or if the company does not have employees in that position then they must minimally pay the mean employee pay for the organization.
 
2014-04-19 01:35:23 PM
...which is why Switzerland is a filthy, disgusting hell hole
 
2014-04-19 01:39:13 PM

vpb: There is no way around the fact that there are more people who want to work than there are jobs. Most people would work rather than live on a minimal income and employers would have to pay people enough to make it worth their while to work


Hence why I said look for work and/or volunteer for your community.  I recognize there aren't enough jobs for everybody out there.  But this notion that somehow society (taxpayers) owe you something for consuming oxygen is bullshiat.  If you go on the dole then you need to contribute something to your community, period.
 
2014-04-19 01:39:17 PM

PreMortem: Why not make it $100?

/reducto ad absurdum (sp)




Agree
 
2014-04-19 01:47:28 PM
Fark, I went to Zurich a few years ago. Working full time at $30/hour would barely put ramen on the table at their cost of living.
 
2014-04-19 01:54:02 PM

enry: themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).

Like it, but you just put property owners in control of the economy.

If more people can afford their own home/apartment then property values skyrocket and so goes the minimum wage.


Really the formula would have to cover other basic costs like food, electricity, and health care; so it wouldn't just be property values contributing.
 
2014-04-19 02:00:26 PM

Fark It: vpb: There is no way around the fact that there are more people who want to work than there are jobs. Most people would work rather than live on a minimal income and employers would have to pay people enough to make it worth their while to work

Hence why I said look for work and/or volunteer for your community.  I recognize there aren't enough jobs for everybody out there.  But this notion that somehow society (taxpayers) owe you something for consuming oxygen is bullshiat.  If you go on the dole then you need to contribute something to your community, period.


That seems fair. Require an amount of hours donated to volunteering or community service to receive a guaranteed basic income, although I'd give a pass to seniors, college/vocational students, and the disabled; I'd also keep the hours fairly low 15-20hrs a week.
 
2014-04-19 02:01:54 PM

serial_crusher: enry: themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).

Like it, but you just put property owners in control of the economy.

If more people can afford their own home/apartment then property values skyrocket and so goes the minimum wage.

Really the formula would have to cover other basic costs like food, electricity, and health care; so it wouldn't just be property values contributing.


I get it, but house/apartment is easily the biggest monthly expense people have. Many people have roommates to split expenses with. Should they get paid a rate equal to having a 1br apartment?
 
2014-04-19 02:11:09 PM

themindiswatching: Also, I'd increase overtime pay to 3x base pay (from 1.5x), making it less expensive for employers to just hire someone else. There, I solved our employment problems too.


And improve the quality of health care when nurses and interns aren't doing 24-hour shifts in the ER.
 
2014-04-19 02:11:38 PM
Yeah but they had to sacrifice all their guns!
 
2014-04-19 02:14:06 PM

enry: themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).

Like it, but you just put property owners in control of the economy.

If more people can afford their own home/apartment then property values skyrocket and so goes the minimum wage.


If there really is a chinese finger trap on pay and rent/mortgages then we need to start regulating property values and rental pricing. Really, anything with some degree of inelastic demand should have price controls.
 
2014-04-19 02:15:06 PM

MayoSlather: I've never liked a minimum wage as a method of keeping people out of poverty. The problem with it is that it always needs to be raised, and for that to happen there has to be continual approval by congress, which has proved difficult. It also disproportionately hurts small business. Raising minimum wage to 20 an hour would be easy for Apple, but would make it hard for a small business with loans to make ends meet.

Lastly, it doesn't address wealth inequality. Wealth inequality has proved to not just about creating a stronger healthy middle class, but it's also become a source of inequality in our democracy, making it even more necessary for us to address the wealth gap.

What I see as a long lasting fix is a three tier solution:

1. Pay ratios - establish a ratio between the highest paid and lowest paid employees in companies, should account for total income including stock options. This has a symbiotic relationship with point number two in that it won't allow profit sharing to go disproportionately to a group of employees.

2. Progressive profit sharing - The more a company makes, the higher % of profit they must dedicate to payroll. This places an emphasis on paying the employees ahead of shareholders, thus reestablishing the balance between labor and capital. It also has a benefit of making it more difficult for large companies to grow thus helping reduce the amount of oligopolies, which currently dominate markets.

3. A guaranteed basic income - Automatically kicks in to everyone that makes below a certain income. Helps small businesses that are not yet profitable keep employees, and makes markets more competitive, and less based on sheer capital.

All this still isn't perfect, as there are two other areas that must be addressed, outside contractors and foreign competition. For foreign competition,we'd need to abandon free trade and place tariffs on imported goods that are based on what the mean of the same good or service produced in America. As for contractors they'd need to have a minimum pay equivalent to what company is currently paying for that position internally, or if the company does not have employees in that position then they must minimally pay the mean employee pay for the organization.


In short, sharply progressive income taxes and redistribution of money to the poor. The Kochs will never go for it.
 
2014-04-19 02:16:25 PM
We should get rid of the minimum wage, and increase taxes on the wealthy to fund all the new welfare, medicare, and medicaid claims.

Or not. Because fortunately, no poor people in America own weapons, so the wealthy shouldn't worry.
 
2014-04-19 02:16:54 PM
This thread is why a GBI will never work in the US.  It would get nutpicked to become ridiculously complex, then everyone would biatch about how many gubmint employees it takes to implement the needlessly complex idea that they came up with.

And we haven't even touched on the argument that GBI funds shouldn't be used for candy/smokes/booze/condoms/cable.
 
2014-04-19 02:21:37 PM

BSABSVR: This thread is why a GBI will never work in the US.  It would get nutpicked to become ridiculously complex, then everyone would biatch about how many gubmint employees it takes to implement the needlessly complex idea that they came up with.

And we haven't even touched on the argument that GBI funds shouldn't be used for candy/smokes/booze/condoms/cable.


Guaranteed Basic Housing would solve that. Have the government build large free boarding houses and ration out free food in a cafeteria. Like a homeless shelter, except nicer.
Not super complicated, nothing to trade for booze/drugs.
 
2014-04-19 02:22:18 PM
those Primatives!   i'm sure grateful to live in Freedomville where i won't be exploited like those poor swiss folks.

its a cruel world out there.
 
2014-04-19 02:23:30 PM
The CEO/board/executives make (total compensation package) some reasonable multiple of what the lowest paid employee makes per year, including part time and outsourced positions (by some fair useful magical unicorny definition of outsourced I can't currently articulate.)
 
2014-04-19 02:24:07 PM

enry: themindiswatching: Or let's fix it once and for all. Set it such that if someone worked 40 hours a week at minimum wage, they could afford to live in a 1 bedroom apartment within ten miles of their workplace and not need food stamps.

/also mandatory two week vacation every year (or prorated based on number of hours per week worked).

Like it, but you just put property owners in control of the economy.

If more people can afford their own home/apartment then property values skyrocket and so goes the minimum wage.


Owners already control the economy.  they're the "job creators" that we keep hearing about.  they create jobs like a squirrel creates evolution.
 
2014-04-19 02:25:13 PM

Marcus Aurelius: The Swiss can do this because they are a civilized country.


img123.imageshack.us
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-19 02:25:18 PM

Fark It: vpb: There is no way around the fact that there are more people who want to work than there are jobs. Most people would work rather than live on a minimal income and employers would have to pay people enough to make it worth their while to work

Hence why I said look for work and/or volunteer for your community.  I recognize there aren't enough jobs for everybody out there.  But this notion that somehow society (taxpayers) owe you something for consuming oxygen is bullshiat.  If you go on the dole then you need to contribute something to your community, period.


So basically you are talking about the Socialist concept of "right to work"?  Seems like a good idea.

You are turning out to be a good Socialist.
 
2014-04-19 02:25:52 PM

doglover: Fark It: If one chooses not to work or contribute in any way to society, then they should reap squalor.

Who actually does that?

What we've got now is people contributing tons and tons still getting squalor. Unacceptable.


works out for the wealthy/stockholders purdy well.....the less everyone else has, the more the richest 2% has.
 
2014-04-19 02:26:00 PM
You know what this thread needs?

..an analogy involving coconuts.
 
2014-04-19 02:27:07 PM

vpb: Did anyone read about Oklahoma making it illegal for cities to set a minimum wage?

That study claiming that we are really an oligarchy is looking more and more accurate.



Oklahoma is one of 'murica's assholes.  backwards/ignorant and proud of it.
 
2014-04-19 02:27:27 PM

serial_crusher: BSABSVR: This thread is why a GBI will never work in the US.  It would get nutpicked to become ridiculously complex, then everyone would biatch about how many gubmint employees it takes to implement the needlessly complex idea that they came up with.

And we haven't even touched on the argument that GBI funds shouldn't be used for candy/smokes/booze/condoms/cable.

Guaranteed Basic Housing would solve that. Have the government build large free boarding houses and ration out free food in a cafeteria. Like a homeless shelter, except nicer.
Not super complicated, nothing to trade for booze/drugs.


So housing projects with a cafeteria? If it's in a nice neighborhood you have the NIMBY problem.  A bad neighborhood and you create government approved ghettoes.   And if there are massive amounts of food being delivered, there is a commodity that someone is going to steal and sell.
 
2014-04-19 02:30:59 PM

PreMortem: Why not make it $100?

/reducto ad absurdum (sp)


More like a slippery slope.
 
2014-04-19 02:33:57 PM
having lived in geneva, i can tell you that $28.50/hr there is basically poverty level.
 
2014-04-19 02:34:25 PM

BSABSVR: serial_crusher: BSABSVR: This thread is why a GBI will never work in the US.  It would get nutpicked to become ridiculously complex, then everyone would biatch about how many gubmint employees it takes to implement the needlessly complex idea that they came up with.

And we haven't even touched on the argument that GBI funds shouldn't be used for candy/smokes/booze/condoms/cable.

Guaranteed Basic Housing would solve that. Have the government build large free boarding houses and ration out free food in a cafeteria. Like a homeless shelter, except nicer.
Not super complicated, nothing to trade for booze/drugs.

So housing projects with a cafeteria? If it's in a nice neighborhood you have the NIMBY problem.  A bad neighborhood and you create government approved ghettoes.   And if there are massive amounts of food being delivered, there is a commodity that someone is going to steal and sell.


I'd like to think any food I would approve to be served at such a place would be unappetizing enough that there wouldn't be a viable demand for it on the black
market. Why would people pay money for the same gruel they can get for free?
 
2014-04-19 02:34:44 PM

Fark It: vpb: There is no way around the fact that there are more people who want to work than there are jobs. Most people would work rather than live on a minimal income and employers would have to pay people enough to make it worth their while to work

Hence why I said look for work and/or volunteer for your community.  I recognize there aren't enough jobs for everybody out there.  But this notion that somehow society (taxpayers) owe you something for consuming oxygen is bullshiat.  If you go on the dole then you need to contribute something to your community, period.


*sigh* the world is not full of lazy moochers. I know you didn't explicitly say that, But that is what you are trying to make this thread about. Class warfare is a real thing and the rich have been winning for a long time.
 
2014-04-19 02:38:44 PM

Fark It: A guaranteed basic income is Marxist, stoner-logic bullshiat.  People need a safety net.  Some people also need a kick in the ass.


You mean like this guy?

upload.wikimedia.org

Yeah...the very personification of a long-haired-hippie-type-pinko-commie-librul who favored and pushed for a guaranteed minimum income.
 
2014-04-19 02:39:36 PM

Radak: $28.50/USD?  That's a pretty good return on investment for USDs, assuming the $ also means USD.


A number of countries use the dollar sign for their own currency. For example, Canada has the dollar, and the dollar sign is also used for the peso in a number of countries.

/the more you know
 
2014-04-19 02:40:51 PM
Coffee and a bagel will set you back $15 in Geneva.
 
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