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(WTKR)   Tennessee may become the first state to make it a crime for a mother to use drugs while pregnant   (wtkr.com) divider line 112
    More: Interesting, East Tennessee, final form, Bill Haslam, crimes  
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1787 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Apr 2014 at 8:42 AM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-19 08:29:41 AM  
RTFA and it's all good -- meth is still a-ok
 
2014-04-19 08:48:55 AM  
Not content with locking people up after they are born, Police are now attempting to breed prison slaves without any exposure to outside society at all.
 
2014-04-19 08:50:19 AM  
It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.
 
2014-04-19 08:52:09 AM  
"As Governor Haslam should see, the measure is about punishing women - mainly poor minority women - not getting them into treatment or protecting their babies."

So women who poison babies shouldn't be punished. Gotcha.
 
2014-04-19 08:57:47 AM  
Women should be rewarded for not having children.  Humanity will collapse if we keep making babies.
 
2014-04-19 08:58:59 AM  
Used to be worried about Russia invading Ukraine, until I realized at home, unaborted Republicans are invading women.
 
2014-04-19 08:59:28 AM  
Because making it a crime to take the drugs while NOT pregnant has been so successful...
 
2014-04-19 09:00:34 AM  
I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"
Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'
 
2014-04-19 09:00:53 AM  
Easily obtainable birth control would do far more to combat the problem than this legislation.
 
2014-04-19 09:01:01 AM  
Does it include smoking?
 
2014-04-19 09:01:22 AM  

Son of Thunder: "As Governor Haslam should see, the measure is about punishing women - mainly poor minority women - not getting them into treatment or protecting their babies."

So women who poison babies shouldn't be punished. Gotcha.


1/10
 
2014-04-19 09:03:20 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?


That is kind of the point of the people proposing the law.

(If it actually WERE about saving precious babies, the law would be about drug counseling and treatment, not adding an additional charge to an already existing crime.)
 
2014-04-19 09:04:09 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'


1.) It's not a baby.

2.) I don't see how it is illogical to allow pregnancy termination and disallow doing things that would leave a child deformed.
 
2014-04-19 09:05:00 AM  
I'm pro-life. That doesn't mean I'm anti-choice, just that I prefer life.

Can someone explain to me this: if an unborn child is merely a parasite, which it is, why should there be a legal penalty for harming the parasite?
 
2014-04-19 09:05:04 AM  
Like caffeine? Or just the hard stuff like pot?
 
2014-04-19 09:10:33 AM  
Reading the article it looks like one of those typical government ideas that is great on paper but will probably be impossible to implement.
 
2014-04-19 09:10:55 AM  

trappedspirit: It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.





Fine as long as you don't insist on other people paying for the consequences of what people do with their bodies -rehab, medical care , abortions, STD treatments, providing care for infants suffering form the various effects of what mom did with "her" body during pregnancy.

If you want the tax payers laws off your body get your hands off their wallets.
 
2014-04-19 09:11:23 AM  

GDubDub: I'm pro-life. That doesn't mean I'm anti-choice, just that I prefer life.

Can someone explain to me this: if an unborn child is merely a parasite, which it is, why should there be a legal penalty for harming the parasite?


loser0: That is kind of the point of the people proposing the law.

(If it actually WERE about saving precious babies, the law would be about drug counseling and treatment, not adding an additional charge to an already existing crime.)

 
2014-04-19 09:12:58 AM  
I looked up "parasite". I'm on my phone so no copypasta.

A fetus fits every definition of parasite I could find.
 
2014-04-19 09:17:56 AM  

LoneWolf343: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'

1.) It's not a baby.

2.) I don't see how it is illogical to allow pregnancy termination and disallow doing things that would leave a child deformed.


Whatever you want to call it - baby, fetus, cell clump....you'd be prosecuting a woman for actions she took against *that thing*.  She exposed it to drugs while it was one of those things.

But she can legally choose to terminate 'it'.

This is similar to saying you can murder your child, but you can't expose your child to second-hand smoke.  Because, second-hand smoke is dangerous but not existing isn't.

I'm pro-abortion so I don't much care.  But it sure seems like a giant contradiction.  'Well, gee, I have been doing a lot of illegal drugs, I guess I'll just abort it now and avoid the possibility of breaking the law later when it's born.'

Even with the use of drugs, we're just talking about likelihoods.  If you give birth and have been doing ______ there is a greater incidence of some particular defect.  Some people who do _______ give birth to babies that are just fine.  But if you abort the thing, it has a 0% chance of a normal life.  'I did some meth, so there is a 50% chance my baby will be fine; but if I abort 'it' there is a 0% chance it will be fine'

The thing that gives the best chance of a healthy baby being born is illegal.
The thing that gives no chance of a healthy baby being born is legal.
 
2014-04-19 09:19:03 AM  
I'm fine with it as long as they include cigarettes and booze - after all, they both have been proven to be seriously detrimental to fetal development.
 
2014-04-19 09:21:06 AM  

GDubDub: if an unborn child is merely a parasite, which it is


it is not, and you are stupid for saying that.
 
2014-04-19 09:21:57 AM  

hasty ambush: trappedspirit: It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.


Fine as long as you don't insist on other people paying for the consequences of what people do with their bodies -rehab, medical care , abortions, STD treatments, providing care for infants suffering form the various effects of what mom did with "her" body during pregnancy.

If you want the tax payers laws off your body get your hands off their wallets.


Sure, how 'bout we do that after the right lays off on the anti birth control?
 
2014-04-19 09:22:36 AM  

frepnog: GDubDub: if an unborn child is merely a parasite, which it is

it is not, and you are stupid for saying that.


Give a troll a break, he is doing a pretty good job of parroting the pro-life strawman of the pro-choice view.
 
2014-04-19 09:22:37 AM  

rev. dave: Women should be rewarded for not having children.  Humanity will collapse if we keep making babies.

Some places face collapse because of a lack of babies and have taken the opposite approach

Without Babies, Can Japan Survive?

Falling fertility rates pose "threat" to government revenues

Germany Fights Population Drop

Denmark needs more babies!

China's approaching storm: An aging population
 
2014-04-19 09:22:46 AM  

LoneWolf343: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'

1.) It's not a baby.

2.) I don't see how it is illogical to allow pregnancy termination and disallow doing things that would leave a child deformed.



The theory is it would be better to never have had a kid than to have one that is deformed; similar to people who have horrible genetic diseases in their family line and so choose not to have children.
 
2014-04-19 09:22:52 AM  

loser0: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

That is kind of the point of the people proposing the law.

(If it actually WERE about saving precious babies, the law would be about drug counseling and treatment, not adding an additional charge to an already existing crime.)


Uh, I think that IS what it's about. Or at least what TFA says it should be.


My two cents, it's about a child being harmed. You can't know if your drugs farked it up until it's born, and if it's born you missed the abortion window, and have now screwed up a kid. You screw up the kid, that's illegal.
 
2014-04-19 09:23:28 AM  
Honestly the law seems pretty reasonable and limited in scope, and it's pointed at something that's an actual problem.

My main objection would be that it seems to lack a lot of associated elements that are well-tested and widely known to be helpful, like remanding drug abusers to treatment/rehabilitation as an alternative to paying fines to the state or jail time.  I don't disagree that punishing people for this is reasonable, I just don't think it'll do much more than a bare minimum to actually fix the problem.

// Then, I think the state automatically paying for abortion in the case of drug abuse or the prenatal detection of a defect would be a great idea (hey, it saves a bunch of money in the long run and realistically probably reduces prison populations too) so I probably wouldn't fit in in TN anyhow.
 
2014-04-19 09:23:47 AM  

GDubDub: I looked up "parasite". I'm on my phone so no copypasta.

A fetus fits every definition of parasite I could find.


oh dear god.  google "why a fetus is not a parasite" and go back to eating paste.
 
2014-04-19 09:26:15 AM  

johnphantom: hasty ambush: trappedspirit: It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.


Fine as long as you don't insist on other people paying for the consequences of what people do with their bodies -rehab, medical care , abortions, STD treatments, providing care for infants suffering form the various effects of what mom did with "her" body during pregnancy.

If you want the tax payers laws off your body get your hands off their wallets.

Sure, how 'bout we do that after the right lays off on the anti birth control?


They are not stopping you from paying for your own are they? Last I cheeked their are still plenty of places like PP to get free condoms and some judge ruled that even kids can buy the morning after bill of course they have to buy that themselves also.
 
2014-04-19 09:28:02 AM  

max_pooper: Easily obtainable birth control would do far more to combat the problem than this legislation.


Many clinics will give women free contraceptives.  Unfortunately, using other drugs can interfere with the effectiveness of birth control pills.  Also, you can give a woman contraceptives but you can't actually force her to use them.
 
2014-04-19 09:28:56 AM  

zarker: Uh, I think that IS what it's about. Or at least what TFA says it should be.


It's not like a TN news station is actually going to report "The latest ploy to get to the Supreme Court to ban all abortions is ready for the governor's signature!" The trolls are already here making sure we know about the logical contradiction here.

TFA is quite clear that there's nothing here for treatment. Getting pregnant women to Just Say No To Drugs is a good goal. Threatening them with a fine in addition to their jail time is not going to help.
 
2014-04-19 09:30:45 AM  

rev. dave: Women should be rewarded for not having children.  Humanity will collapse if we keep making babies.


But not if we keep practicing to make babies. Practice on, America.
 
2014-04-19 09:31:09 AM  
This law is pointless, at least in terms of actual criminality.  As it states, it's aimed at the use of illegal narcotics while pregnant (emphasis mine).  The substances are already illegal, so this does nothing else except give the criminal 'justice' system another charge to slap someone with.

Insofar as money-making for the prison industry or ensuring that the perp spends as much time in jail as possible (as well as her child, should it survive being born after whatever drug she's on), well, I guess it's a success there.

Screw prisons and screw the war on some drugs.
 
2014-04-19 09:31:09 AM  
I'm an attorney for a child services agency. It's not necessarily illegal to take drugs while pregnant, but if the baby tests positive for anything, we will take the child and place it in a foster home as soon as it leaves the hospital. I think it should probably be child endangerment as well, but as it stands right now, all we do is take the baby away.
 
2014-04-19 09:32:26 AM  
if you're using drugs while you're pregnant you might as well go ahead and get an abortion, even if it's just over-the-counter-stuff that baby's not going to be right
 
2014-04-19 09:33:39 AM  

Sim Tree: LoneWolf343: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'

1.) It's not a baby.

2.) I don't see how it is illogical to allow pregnancy termination and disallow doing things that would leave a child deformed.


The theory is it would be better to never have had a kid than to have one that is deformed; similar to people who have horrible genetic diseases in their family line and so choose not to have children.


Yeah - and that's totally logical.  Heck, I could even get behind it.

But we still let people who *know* they are carriers for disease procreate.  And a bunch of them even do it with honor.  'I know my child has a 40% chance of having _______ but I will love her all the same'.  And if a couple does have one child with a hereditary illness, we let them have more children.

We also know that all sorts of things are pretty much on-par with drug use.  Lots of soccer Moms are going to be offended, but the older a couple is when they have a child, the more likely that child is to have problems.  We don't make it illegal for a 35 year-old career driven woman to have a baby.  We also let obese people have children, even though we know they are pretty much guaranteed to end up obese.

If that is the motivation behind the law, it seems to be really poorly written.  It should address what it's meant to do, not people who do drugs.  Anyone who knowingly proceeds with a pregnancy deemed 'high risk' should face the same legal consequences.
 
2014-04-19 09:36:21 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: LoneWolf343: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'

1.) It's not a baby.

2.) I don't see how it is illogical to allow pregnancy termination and disallow doing things that would leave a child deformed.

Whatever you want to call it - baby, fetus, cell clump....you'd be prosecuting a woman for actions she took against *that thing*.  She exposed it to drugs while it was one of those things.

But she can legally choose to terminate 'it'.

This is similar to saying you can murder your child, but you can't expose your child to second-hand smoke.  Because, second-hand smoke is dangerous but not existing isn't.

I'm pro-abortion so I don't much care.  But it sure seems like a giant contradiction.  'Well, gee, I have been doing a lot of illegal drugs, I guess I'll just abort it now and avoid the possibility of breaking the law later when it's born.'

Even with the use of drugs, we're just talking about likelihoods.  If you give birth and have been doing ______ there is a greater incidence of some particular defect.  Some people who do _______ give birth to babies that are just fine.  But if you abort the thing, it has a 0% chance of a normal life.  'I did some meth, so there is a 50% chance my baby will be fine; but if I abort 'it' there is a 0% chance it will be fine'

The thing that gives the best chance of a healthy baby being born is illegal.
The thing that gives no chance of a healthy baby being born is legal.


50% chance? Maybe sit this one out.
 
2014-04-19 09:36:25 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: But we still let people who *know* they are carriers for disease procreate ... We don't make it illegal for a 35 year-old career driven woman to have a baby. We also let obese people have children


Yeah, that whole "eugenics" thing became unpopular in the forties. Can't imagine why.
 
2014-04-19 09:37:46 AM  

rev. dave: Women should be rewarded for not having children.  Humanity will collapse if we keep making babies.


This statement is 100% wrong.
 
2014-04-19 09:40:46 AM  

loser0: Can't imagine why.


because while the human race needs top specimens to progress, we also need fodder.
 
2014-04-19 09:41:06 AM  

hasty ambush: trappedspirit: It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.

Fine as long as you don't insist on other people paying for the consequences of what people do with their bodies -rehab, medical care , abortions, STD treatments, providing care for infants suffering form the various effects of what mom did with "her" body during pregnancy.

If you want the tax payers laws off your body get your hands off their wallets.


I'm a dude and incapable of robbing from your society for payment of an abortion or infant care blah blah blah.
 
2014-04-19 09:41:11 AM  
If they offer high quality prenatal care in prison, maybe not such a bad thing.

The "crack baby" epidemic was a lie, BTW.
 
2014-04-19 09:42:25 AM  

hasty ambush: trappedspirit: It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.

Fine as long as you don't insist on other people paying for the consequences of what people do with their bodies -rehab, medical care , abortions, STD treatments, providing care for infants suffering form the various effects of what mom did with "her" body during pregnancy.

If you want the tax payers laws off your body get your hands off their wallets.


So take your woman persecution elsewhere!
 
2014-04-19 09:42:50 AM  

hasty ambush: johnphantom: hasty ambush: trappedspirit: It's an absolute crime against human rights to legislate what people take into their bodies.  Whether it be meth, sperm, or both.


Fine as long as you don't insist on other people paying for the consequences of what people do with their bodies -rehab, medical care , abortions, STD treatments, providing care for infants suffering form the various effects of what mom did with "her" body during pregnancy.

If you want the tax payers laws off your body get your hands off their wallets.

Sure, how 'bout we do that after the right lays off on the anti birth control?

They are not stopping you from paying for your own are they? Last I cheeked their are still plenty of places like PP to get free condoms and some judge ruled that even kids can buy the morning after bill of course they have to buy that themselves also.


You are being disingenuous at best; it's a MUCH bigger issue than just money.
 
2014-04-19 09:44:10 AM  

Son of Thunder: "As Governor Haslam should see, the measure is about punishing women - mainly poor minority women - not getting them into treatment or protecting their babies."

So women who poison babies shouldn't be punished. Gotcha.


The War on Some Drugs has been so successful, we should increase it's scope.  Gotcha.
 
2014-04-19 09:46:09 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'


They can't.  This is another 'wedge' law the pro-lifers like to use, since they've failed to ban abortion outright.  Wait a few years, and they'll use exactly the conundrum you point out, in order to reduce abortion access.
 
2014-04-19 09:51:41 AM  

Ivandrago: I'm an attorney for a child services agency. It's not necessarily illegal to take drugs while pregnant, but if the baby tests positive for anything, we will take the child and place it in a foster home as soon as it leaves the hospital. I think it should probably be child endangerment as well, but as it stands right now, all we do is take the baby away.


Good thing state labs never, ever falsify drug tests.

And by "never", I mean 34,000 times just here in Massachusetts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Dookhan
 
2014-04-19 09:54:21 AM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Sim Tree: LoneWolf343: Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm having trouble understanding how this law *and* abortion can logically co-exist?

"Well Ma'am - you used illegal drugs and, if your baby is born messed up, we'll put you in jail.  Because life is precious and that baby inside you has a right to be born without unnecessary medical issues..."

Okay fine - I'll just kill it!

"Yes Ma'am.  That is your right.  Your body, your choice'

1.) It's not a baby.

2.) I don't see how it is illogical to allow pregnancy termination and disallow doing things that would leave a child deformed.


The theory is it would be better to never have had a kid than to have one that is deformed; similar to people who have horrible genetic diseases in their family line and so choose not to have children.

Yeah - and that's totally logical.  Heck, I could even get behind it.

But we still let people who *know* they are carriers for disease procreate.  And a bunch of them even do it with honor.  'I know my child has a 40% chance of having _______ but I will love her all the same'.  And if a couple does have one child with a hereditary illness, we let them have more children.

We also know that all sorts of things are pretty much on-par with drug use.   Lots of soccer Moms are going to be offended, but the older a couple is when they have a child, the more likely that child is to have problems.  We don't make it illegal for a 35 year-old career driven woman to have a baby.  We also let obese people have children, even though we know they are pretty much guaranteed to end up obese.

If that is the motivation behind the law, it seems to be really poorly written.  It should address what it's meant to do, not people who do drugs.  Anyone who knowingly proceeds with a pregnancy deemed 'high risk' should face the same legal consequences.


Bold parts are a good point...and I'll add the latest studies I saw show that older dads are even MORE likely to have kids with problems than older moms.

Good luck getting the mostly-male Senate to regulate THAT :)
 
2014-04-19 09:55:07 AM  
In my state you can be involuntarily committed to an institution if you are using drugs/alcohol while pregnant
 
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