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(Guardian)   Shadow secretary warns of islamic plot code named "Operation Trojan Horse" to take over British schools. Subby just found the the plot for the next James Bond movie   (theguardian.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, British Schools of America, Trojan Horse, james bond movies, code-named, Department for Education, faith schools, extremisms, Birmingham City Council  
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1113 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Apr 2014 at 9:15 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-19 09:12:01 AM  
FTFA: Although some have claimed the Trojan Horse document is fake, Birmingham council has launched an investigation into 25 schools, while separate probes are being conducted by Ofsted and the DfE.

Its always a good idea to make sure local governance does not generate into insular provincialism. Not that we'd EVER have such concerns here in the United States.....ahem.
 
2014-04-19 09:24:45 AM  
In the USA they are called Christians. They wouldn't use term Trojan because that sounds like birth control. They would use something like "Operation Suppository".
 
2014-04-19 09:24:46 AM  
People sure do love to be paranoid.
 
2014-04-19 09:29:02 AM  
We prefer sociopolitical solipsism over insular provincialism in the US.

// 'Feriners don't matter' vs. 'Dem Dimmeycrats Comin' Fer Mah Medicare'
 
2014-04-19 09:30:42 AM  
The only people concerned by something like this are racists.
 
2014-04-19 09:32:35 AM  
Multiculturalism presumes that the various cultural influences are not diametrically opposed or at least are willing to bend. What Great Britain and a number of other EU nations are learning is that some cultures are not only not a good mix but attempting to accommodate both results in radicalizing factions instead.

The EU is going to have to figure out what to do with the more extreme sects of Islam. Opening your doors to immigration so people can have a better life is one thing but when radical groups within that immigrant population do not even recognize the authority of your government, you have to have a plan for removing them.
 
2014-04-19 09:36:16 AM  
The real takeaway from this? Birmingham is the Detroit of Britain: a hot mess of racial tension, failed local government, and some ugly, ugly, UGLY buildings.

Oh, and the Venn diagrams of 'racist', 'paranoid', 'stupid', and 'gullible' have a LOT of overlap.
 
2014-04-19 09:37:12 AM  
I can't imagine it would be worse than what the liberals have done to our education system. We spend more per student than about anywhere so that our kids can be taught how not to be so white and how not to perform basic arithmetic.
 
2014-04-19 09:37:44 AM  

Granny_Panties: In the USA they are called Christians. They wouldn't use term Trojan because that sounds like birth control. They would use something like "Operation Suppository".


As annoying as fundamentalist Christianity can be it's not a good analogy for fundamentalist Islam which commonly rejects any separation of church and state. The Bible enjoins Christians to obey the laws of their nation which is why they tend to work within the system to change those laws to things they find more palatable. Some extremist Islamic groups do not recognize the authority of secular law.
 
2014-04-19 09:39:43 AM  
Couple things:

1) What the hell is a 'shadow' secretary?  Does he only come out during the day (excluding high noon)?

2)Hunt is to say that schools should unite "a modern, multicultural city like this one"
And I'm sure nothing unites a multicultural city than tell some of the kids from a particular culture that their parents are evil.

3) Is this some kind of British version of the American conservative movements general dislike of education?  Something along the lines of "Sure, in general and in principle, we'd like an educated and non-ignorant populace.  But if it means letting some brownish kid get ahold of some book-lernin', ... well, we just can't take that chance.  We'll have to close down schools for everybody.  We don't want to do that, but we've no choice."
 
2014-04-19 09:43:00 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: As annoying as fundamentalist Christianity can be it's not a good analogy for fundamentalist Islam which commonly rejects any separation of church and state. The Bible enjoins Christians to obey the laws of their nation which is why they tend to work within the system to change those laws to things they find more palatable. Some extremist Islamic groups do not recognize the authority of secular law.


Oh man is that ever going to get bites.  8/10
 
2014-04-19 09:44:23 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Granny_Panties: In the USA they are called Christians. They wouldn't use term Trojan because that sounds like birth control. They would use something like "Operation Suppository".

As annoying as fundamentalist Christianity can be it's not a good analogy for fundamentalist Islam which commonly rejects any separation of church and state. The Bible enjoins Christians to obey the laws of their nation which is why they tend to work within the system to change those laws to things they find more palatable. Some extremist Islamic groups do not recognize the authority of secular law.


As long as you apply that adjective "extremist" equally, it is equally true of Christians. It is intellectually dishonest to throw qualifiers into a comparison.
i18.photobucket.com
It's called "Dominionism". It is a real thing, that has real adherents. It differs from "Sharia Law" in no significant way.
 
2014-04-19 09:45:21 AM  

Karac: And I'm sure nothing unites a multicultural city than tell some of the kids from a particular culture that their parents are evil need to play nice and afford other cultural groups the respect and consideration they demand for their own.


FTFY
 
2014-04-19 09:46:18 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Multiculturalism presumes that the various cultural influences are not diametrically opposed or at least are willing to bend. What Great Britain and a number of other EU nations are learning is that some cultures are not only not a good mix but attempting to accommodate both results in radicalizing factions instead.

The EU is going to have to figure out what to do with the more extreme sects of Islam. Opening your doors to immigration so people can have a better life is one thing but when radical groups within that immigrant population do not even recognize the authority of your government, you have to have a plan for removing them.


SO MUCH THIS!

I mean, sure, the USA would have loved to have welcomed Italian immigrants in the early twentieth century.  But some of the radical groups within that population didn't recognize the authority of the government.  They flouted the law and even set up a society that was their very own "Our Thing".  It was a sad thing to have to forcibly deport every single person in the country whose name ended in a vowel, but it had to be done.

And then in the forties we had the dirty Japs.  Why they were a public danger!  We had to round them up and put them in concentration camps!  It was the right thing to do!
 
2014-04-19 09:50:03 AM  

GoldSpider: Oh man is that ever going to get bites.  8/10


That's not trolling. That's the dog's honest truth.

jso2897: As long as you apply that adjective "extremist" equally, it is equally true of Christians. It is intellectually dishonest to throw qualifiers into a comparison.


I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism.
 
2014-04-19 09:53:10 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism.


I'll grant you that the Dominionists still only exist on the fringe of right-wing politics, but their hatred of secularism (to say nothing of other faiths) is no less caustic than what we think of as "extremism" in Islam.
 
2014-04-19 09:53:10 AM  

Karac: Couple things:

1) What the hell is a 'shadow' secretary?  Does he only come out during the day (excluding high noon)?

2)Hunt is to say that schools should unite "a modern, multicultural city like this one"
And I'm sure nothing unites a multicultural city than tell some of the kids from a particular culture that their parents are evil.

3) Is this some kind of British version of the American conservative movements general dislike of education?  Something along the lines of "Sure, in general and in principle, we'd like an educated and non-ignorant populace.  But if it means letting some brownish kid get ahold of some book-lernin', ... well, we just can't take that chance.  We'll have to close down schools for everybody.  We don't want to do that, but we've no choice."


A 'shadow' secretary is the member of the opposition party who would hold that position if their party was in power.
 
2014-04-19 09:55:13 AM  

Karac: I mean, sure, the USA would have loved to have welcomed Italian immigrants in the early twentieth century.  But some of the radical groups within that population didn't recognize the authority of the government.  They flouted the law and even set up a society that was their very own "Our Thing".  It was a sad thing to have to forcibly deport every single person in the country whose name ended in a vowel, but it had to be done.


Nice straw man.

You'll note that I didn't say stop immigration or deport all brown people. What I said is have a plan to deal with elements within the immigrant population which are not a good fit with the host culture and who do not recognize the authority of the host government.

So allow the Italian's (including my grandparents) in but have a plan for identifying fascists and anarchists within that population and deport them.
 
2014-04-19 09:57:38 AM  
Is Shadow Secretary an actual title?

That sounds like a member of Voldemort's cabinet.
 
2014-04-19 09:58:15 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism


Of course you're not going to pretend that.  Because they aren't.
Islamic fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself as violent action and murder with calls for political change.
Christian fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself a violent action to just kill people of other faiths or beliefs in addition to actually getting elected to position of powers where they can directly effect political change.
 
2014-04-19 10:01:10 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Karac: I mean, sure, the USA would have loved to have welcomed Italian immigrants in the early twentieth century.  But some of the radical groups within that population didn't recognize the authority of the government.  They flouted the law and even set up a society that was their very own "Our Thing".  It was a sad thing to have to forcibly deport every single person in the country whose name ended in a vowel, but it had to be done.

Nice straw man.

You'll note that I didn't say stop immigration or deport all brown people. What I said is have a plan to deal with elements within the immigrant population which are not a good fit with the host culture and who do not recognize the authority of the host government.

So allow the Italian's (including my grandparents) in but have a plan for identifying fascists and anarchists within that population and deport them.


If they happen to break the law, then arrest and jail them.  Pretty much the same as anyone else who is not a 'good fit' and does something wrong.
On the other hand, if they're 'not a good fit', but are just general assholes howling at the moon or biatching about people on their lawn, then just let them howl and biatch while laughing at them.

If you're objecting to me building a straw man, then why don't you flesh it out with some concrete and rebar and actually define what you mean by "not a good fit"?
 
2014-04-19 10:03:36 AM  

Karac: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism

Of course you're not going to pretend that.  Because they aren't.
Islamic fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself as violent action and murder with calls for political change.
Christian fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself a violent action to just kill people of other faiths or beliefs in addition to actually getting elected to position of powers where they can directly effect political change.


And you just have to look at the recent history of places like Uganda or Ireland to see that Christian extremists can be just as violent as Muslim ones.
 
2014-04-19 10:07:03 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: GoldSpider: Oh man is that ever going to get bites.  8/10

That's not trolling. That's the dog's honest truth.

jso2897: As long as you apply that adjective "extremist" equally, it is equally true of Christians. It is intellectually dishonest to throw qualifiers into a comparison.

I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism.


The only major difference between Islamic fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism is that Islam is a minority over there and will continue to be a fringe idea while the majority of the population here is Christian so they can be swayed by individual ideas espoused by the fundamentalists, even though the whole package is unwanted by the majority. A true religious minority cannot gain power, but Christian fundamentalists can squirm their way in by playing on the faiths of other Christians. They are a greater danger.
 
2014-04-19 10:08:21 AM  

Karac: Islamic fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself as violent action and murder with calls for political change.
Christian fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself a violent action to just kill people of other faiths or beliefs in addition to actually getting elected to position of powers where they can directly effect political change.


You do realize that there are places outside the United States, right?  Small factions of Christian fundies in Congress don't even remotely compare to Islamic theocracies.
 
2014-04-19 10:11:34 AM  

Nemo's Brother: I can't imagine it would be worse than what the liberals have done to our education system. We spend more per student than about anywhere so that our kids can be taught how not to be so white and how not to perform basic arithmetic.


Or even know the definition of simple words.
 
2014-04-19 10:18:40 AM  

Karac: If they happen to break the law, then arrest and jail them.  Pretty much the same as anyone else who is not a 'good fit' and does something wrong.


And what the UK and some of the EU is trying to figure out is how to deal with imams who exhort others to commit crimes but are largely protected from prosecution by laws which ensure religious freedom.
 
2014-04-19 10:23:14 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Karac: If they happen to break the law, then arrest and jail them.  Pretty much the same as anyone else who is not a 'good fit' and does something wrong.

And what the UK and some of the EU is trying to figure out is how to deal with imams who exhort others to commit crimes but are largely protected from prosecution by laws which ensure religious freedom.


They'll probably do the same thing that America does with our violent Christian preachers: wait until the preachers stockpile guns or molest children and then arrest them, and hope their followers grow up and become disillusioned.
 
2014-04-19 10:23:54 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: GoldSpider: Oh man is that ever going to get bites.  8/10

That's not trolling. That's the dog's honest truth.

jso2897: As long as you apply that adjective "extremist" equally, it is equally true of Christians. It is intellectually dishonest to throw qualifiers into a comparison.

I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism.


It's not prevalent in our part of the world. Go sample the brand of Christianity they practice in parts of Africa, or Latin America. Christianity mostly dwells in the civilized first world, where constants upon it are strong.
 Islam mostly inhabits the third world, where no such constraints exist. A religious fundamentalist is a religious fundamentalist - what they all share in common is that the value their ideology over your humanity - and that's all I care about.
If you wish to be a lamb who makes delicate distinctions between the predators who would dine upon you, that is your privilege - just as it is mine not to share your view.
 
2014-04-19 10:24:08 AM  

rebelyell2006: They'll probably do the same thing that America does with our violent Christian preachers: wait until the preachers stockpile guns or molest children and then arrest them, and hope their followers grow up and become disillusioned.


Hope is not a plan.
 
2014-04-19 10:25:26 AM  

rebelyell2006: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Karac: If they happen to break the law, then arrest and jail them.  Pretty much the same as anyone else who is not a 'good fit' and does something wrong.

And what the UK and some of the EU is trying to figure out is how to deal with imams who exhort others to commit crimes but are largely protected from prosecution by laws which ensure religious freedom.

They'll probably do the same thing that America does with our violent Christian preachers: wait until the preachers stockpile guns or molest children and then arrest them, and hope their followers grow up and become disillusioned.


But that sounds too simple, maaaaaan. They just want you to think that. Or something.
 
2014-04-19 10:26:12 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: rebelyell2006: They'll probably do the same thing that America does with our violent Christian preachers: wait until the preachers stockpile guns or molest children and then arrest them, and hope their followers grow up and become disillusioned.

Hope is not a plan.


Well, apparently it is, here in America.
 
2014-04-19 10:26:22 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: rebelyell2006: They'll probably do the same thing that America does with our violent Christian preachers: wait until the preachers stockpile guns or molest children and then arrest them, and hope their followers grow up and become disillusioned.

Hope is not a plan.


Tell that to the President.
 
2014-04-19 10:31:04 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Granny_Panties: In the USA they are called Christians. They wouldn't use term Trojan because that sounds like birth control. They would use something like "Operation Suppository".

As annoying as fundamentalist Christianity can be it's not a good analogy for fundamentalist Islam which commonly rejects any separation of church and state. The Bible enjoins Christians to obey the laws of their nation which is why they tend to work within the system to change those laws to things they find more palatable. Some extremist Islamic groups do not recognize the authority of secular law.


/not sure if serious
 
2014-04-19 10:32:06 AM  
Here's the problem: there are lots of ways of dealing with religious fanatics. Unfortunately (or not) only a few of them are available to modern, enlightened democracies. We can keep an eye on these people, and subject them to social sanction - but we can't really do anything about them until or unless they do something unlawful.
And I REALLY don't think it would be a very good idea to change that.
 
2014-04-19 10:34:28 AM  

rebelyell2006: Monkeyhouse Zendo: rebelyell2006: They'll probably do the same thing that America does with our violent Christian preachers: wait until the preachers stockpile guns or molest children and then arrest them, and hope their followers grow up and become disillusioned.

Hope is not a plan.

Tell that to the President.


Well, "nope" is not a plan either - but try telling that to the Republican Congress! :D
 
2014-04-19 10:34:30 AM  
Will be about as successful as the Trojan Bunny.
 
2014-04-19 10:41:26 AM  
I DNRTFA, so I might be way off base, but my understanding is that the UK allows publicly funded religious schools of pretty much any belief.

Now, criticisms of publicly funded Muslim schools could, of course, be a sign of xenophobia, but, that being said, if you were a Muslim fundamentalist looking to gain recruits, such a school would seem like a possibly fertile ground. So, I don't think the idea itself can be dismissed out of hand. Nor do i think the government would be wrongheaded to look into it. (Of course, the best solution is to not fund religious schools at all, but that's the UK's business.)

If we had a similar situation in the US (a system of publicly funded religious schools), I have no doubt Christian fundies would be trying to surreptitiously co-opt the Christian ones. Hell, there's clearly a concerted effort to co-opt supposedly secular charter schools here.
 
2014-04-19 10:50:34 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Granny_Panties: In the USA they are called Christians. They wouldn't use term Trojan because that sounds like birth control. They would use something like "Operation Suppository".

As annoying as fundamentalist Christianity can be it's not a good analogy for fundamentalist Islam which commonly rejects any separation of church and state. The Bible enjoins Christians to obey the laws of their nation which is why they tend to work within the system to change those laws to things they find more palatable. Some extremist Islamic groups do not recognize the authority of secular law.


You haven't been paying attention, have you...

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I don't like Christianity but I'm not going to pretend that modern Christian fundamentalism is as bad as modern Islamic fundamentalism.


The only difference is that the muslims will stab you in the front, and the christians are maneuvering to stab you in the back.  Just because the knife is still in their pocket doesn't mean they aren't planning to use it.
 
2014-04-19 10:53:05 AM  
Silly, the real plot is called "Operation Religious Liberty"
 
2014-04-19 10:59:16 AM  
Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.
 
2014-04-19 11:03:16 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.


The problem is that people will claim the Muslims in Europe are worse than the Christians in America, which is not true. And it is also ignoring the Christian ultra-right wing in Europe as well.
 
2014-04-19 11:03:58 AM  

eiger: I DNRTFA, so I might be way off base, but my understanding is that the UK allows publicly funded religious schools of pretty much any belief.

Now, criticisms of publicly funded Muslim schools could, of course, be a sign of xenophobia, but, that being said, if you were a Muslim fundamentalist looking to gain recruits, such a school would seem like a possibly fertile ground. So, I don't think the idea itself can be dismissed out of hand. Nor do i think the government would be wrongheaded to look into it. (Of course, the best solution is to not fund religious schools at all, but that's the UK's business.)

If we had a similar situation in the US (a system of publicly funded religious schools), I have no doubt Christian fundies would be trying to surreptitiously co-opt the Christian ones. Hell, there's clearly a concerted effort to co-opt supposedly secular charter schools here.


Well, the Brits have a problem there. Back when everybody was a Christian, it probably seemed like a good idea to set up publicly funded schools for religious people.Indeed, there are still people in the U.S,. who want to institute a similar "voucher" system. The problem started when they come to find out that there are other religions - some of which don't seem to be very nice. I don't see any way out of it for them but to shut down the whole "faith school" system - it's only goig to get worse as more and more crazier and crazier people demand their piece of the pie.
 
2014-04-19 11:04:27 AM  

BMFPitt: Karac: Islamic fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself as violent action and murder with calls for political change.
Christian fundamentalism occasionally expresses itself a violent action to just kill people of other faiths or beliefs in addition to actually getting elected to position of powers where they can directly effect political change.

You do realize that there are places outside the United States, right?  Small factions of Christian fundies in Congress don't even remotely compare to Islamic theocracies.


I didn't think we were talking about Islamic theocracies.  We were talking about the British.
 
2014-04-19 11:06:16 AM  

rebelyell2006: bigsteve3OOO: Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.

The problem is that people will claim the Muslims in Europe are worse than the Christians in America, which is not true. And it is also ignoring the Christian ultra-right wing in Europe as well.


The problem of how society is going to deal with religious fanaticism, and the attempts of the religious to work through government is not just a problem of Muslims. It pertains to all religious groups.
And we only have one rather limited set of tools for dealing with any and all of them.
 
2014-04-19 11:06:56 AM  

rebelyell2006: bigsteve3OOO: Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.

The problem is that people will claim the Muslims in Europe are worse than the Christians in America, which is not true. And it is also ignoring the Christian ultra-right wing in Europe as well.


Who cares if they are worse.  If I only beat my wife but my neighbor kills his does that make me right?  islam has problems.  discuss them.  there is no need to bring Christians into it.  They are not the cause of the islamic problems.
 
2014-04-19 11:07:50 AM  
wrong.

that is Operation Trojan Condom.
 
2014-04-19 11:11:05 AM  

jso2897: rebelyell2006: bigsteve3OOO: Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.

The problem is that people will claim the Muslims in Europe are worse than the Christians in America, which is not true. And it is also ignoring the Christian ultra-right wing in Europe as well.

The problem of how society is going to deal with religious fanaticism, and the attempts of the religious to work through government is not just a problem of Muslims. It pertains to all religious groups.
And we only have one rather limited set of tools for dealing with any and all of them.


We have lots of ways to deal with any issues.  The rule of law.  Follow it or be jailed, killed, or deported depending on the situation.  There is no need to do anything else.  If your religion requires you to operate out of a countries rule of law then you shall be dealt with accordingly.  Issue arise when progressive notions of fairness start getting in the way of the law.  The law is not fair and it should not be.
 
2014-04-19 11:11:35 AM  

friday13: The only difference is that the muslims will stab you in the front, and the christians are maneuvering to stab you in the back.


Gork and Mork?
 
2014-04-19 11:11:40 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: rebelyell2006: bigsteve3OOO: Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.

The problem is that people will claim the Muslims in Europe are worse than the Christians in America, which is not true. And it is also ignoring the Christian ultra-right wing in Europe as well.

Who cares if they are worse.  If I only beat my wife but my neighbor kills his does that make me right?  islam has problems.  discuss them.  there is no need to bring Christians into it.  They are not the cause of the islamic problems.


I don't perceive this discussion to be about either Muslims OR Christians, and their problems. I perceive it to be about the problem society has in determining how to deal with religious fanatics who wish to turn the state to their advantage.
I really don't care about Christian or Muslim problems.
 
2014-04-19 11:12:29 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: jso2897: rebelyell2006: bigsteve3OOO: Why is it that all of these discussions devolve into "group a does something bad but group b does it too!"  There are problems within the islamic community.  They have nothing to do with the problems of the Christian community.

The problem is that people will claim the Muslims in Europe are worse than the Christians in America, which is not true. And it is also ignoring the Christian ultra-right wing in Europe as well.

The problem of how society is going to deal with religious fanaticism, and the attempts of the religious to work through government is not just a problem of Muslims. It pertains to all religious groups.
And we only have one rather limited set of tools for dealing with any and all of them.

We have lots of ways to deal with any issues.  The rule of law.  Follow it or be jailed, killed, or deported depending on the situation.  There is no need to do anything else.  If your religion requires you to operate out of a countries rule of law then you shall be dealt with accordingly.  Issue arise when progressive notions of fairness start getting in the way of the law.  The law is not fair and it should not be.


That's precisely what I've been saying.
 
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