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(The Raw Story)   Fox News hosts drop the pretense and articulate their real vision of what they want for average Americans "That's what we should have - no labor law and no minimum wage, they work for a dollar a week"   (rawstory.com) divider line 285
    More: Obvious, Fox News, Eric Bolling, Bob Beckel, Andrea Tantaros, dollars  
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5873 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Apr 2014 at 2:15 PM (31 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-16 03:30:16 PM  
Why pay them at all, just institute labor camps like they have in North Korea?
 
2014-04-16 03:31:15 PM  

Chigau: This always bugs me to hear about how China has "No Labor Laws."  They actually have a relatively detailed set of laws in regards to safety, wage, and social welfare.  The problem is that they have little to no enforcement in practice, no education on the presence of those laws, and I don't think they even have communication requirements on these laws (think the state/fed postings in the breakroom at your work.  China doesn't do that)  

If we followed Chinese regulations with US levels of enforcement, big business would be screaming uncle when they had to pitch in for higher number of holidays with mandatory triple pay for work on the holiday, extended social welfare contributions, housing for employees (ok, its shiatty housing in china...)  and mandatory employment contracts....


They also have a constitution.

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.

Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.


It's ADORABLE!
 
2014-04-16 03:31:52 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Dr Dreidel: Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.

That's my point. No one ever explains why the Swedish model won't work when your population includes brown people. Especially in the US, where new immigrants tend to assimilate faster than immigrants to Europe. Again, sounds like BS or veiled racism.


Sometimes, I wish people who held discriminatory attitudes towards "the other" would be more forthright with their words instead of keeping things private. At least then we would have ironclad evidence of their prejudice.
 
2014-04-16 03:32:38 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism


Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.
 
2014-04-16 03:33:41 PM  

Fart_Machine: Does he also advocate for the suicide nets?

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x462]


Don't be silly.  That would contradict their retirement plan.
 
2014-04-16 03:36:59 PM  
It sure is something to see the "Rah, Rah! USA, USA!" uber-patriot crowd from the last decade now idolizing such things as Putin and the Chinese labor model.  I don't even...
 
2014-04-16 03:37:15 PM  

sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.


Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?
 
2014-04-16 03:37:27 PM  

sendtodave: Chigau: This always bugs me to hear about how China has "No Labor Laws."  They actually have a relatively detailed set of laws in regards to safety, wage, and social welfare.  The problem is that they have little to no enforcement in practice, no education on the presence of those laws, and I don't think they even have communication requirements on these laws (think the state/fed postings in the breakroom at your work.  China doesn't do that)  

If we followed Chinese regulations with US levels of enforcement, big business would be screaming uncle when they had to pitch in for higher number of holidays with mandatory triple pay for work on the holiday, extended social welfare contributions, housing for employees (ok, its shiatty housing in china...)  and mandatory employment contracts....

They also have a constitution.

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.

Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.

It ...


Scalia testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee a couple of years ago where he talked about the Soviet Union's constitution and told the assembly "The bill of rights of the former evil empire, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was much better than ours. I mean it literally. It was much better. We guarantee freedom of speech and of the press, big deal! The guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press of street demonstrations and anyone who is caught trying to suppress criticism of the government will be called to account." Of course he wouldn't want to live in the USSR, just like most Americans wouldn't want to live there either. That's because what matters is whether people support human rights or not. That's why a country like New Zealand can be rated better than America on pretty much every human rights index produced despite them not having a written Constitution.
 
2014-04-16 03:37:43 PM  
t3.gstatic.com
The good old days
 
2014-04-16 03:41:27 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".

Yeah, too bad that the fastest the American economy has ever grown coincided with the lowest levels of inequality we ever had.


Your data has been insufficiently Reinharted and/or Rogoffed I see.
 
2014-04-16 03:41:40 PM  

edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.


The problem with your statement is that you have mistakenly identified the village idiots that constitute "The Five" as "news people". It's an easy enough mistake to make given the entire Fox Network has disguised itself as a news organization. The Five are no more "news people" than the children who come to your doorstep on Halloween are Transformers or members of S.H.I.E.L.D..  Do not be deceived.
And getting a History degree is, in fact, getting a real education. It may surprise you to learn that history is important.
 
2014-04-16 03:42:02 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]


Talk to any union shill and he'll tell you nothing has changed since then.
 
2014-04-16 03:42:09 PM  

FlashHarry: what would saint reagan say if he were alive?


BRAINS!
Want some nice jelly beans?
care for a dance baroness?

My son is a Homo?!
GRRR! BRAAAAIIIINS!!!
 
2014-04-16 03:44:12 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?


Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?
 
2014-04-16 03:46:09 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?


Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?
 
2014-04-16 03:46:16 PM  

red5ish: edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.

The problem with your statement is that you have mistakenly identified the village idiots that constitute "The Five" as "news people". It's an easy enough mistake to make given the entire Fox Network has disguised itself as a news organization. The Five are no more "news people" than the children who come to your doorstep on Halloween are Transformers or members of S.H.I.E.L.D..  Do not be deceived.
And getting a History degree is, in fact, getting a real education. It may surprise you to learn that history is important.


People that study history never achieve anything obviously.

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-16 03:46:20 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?



She was not alone. In Maria's high-rise suburb of Almgården an astonishing one in three voted for Sweden Democrats, a party dubbed "racist and neo-Nazi" and led by Jimmie Åkesson, the new young darling of the European far right.
The reason is plain. Maria pointed across the dual carriageway to the neighbouring housing scheme of Rosengård, known locally as "the ghetto".
It is home to almost 20,000 immigrants, overwhelmingly Muslim, almost half of them jobless.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far- ri ght-asylum
 
2014-04-16 03:46:53 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?


Not really, no. You might be thinking a direct democracy vs a republican one?
 
2014-04-16 03:48:10 PM  
Slavery could be legal again and companies would still send jobs to China due to lax environmental regulations.

No one wins in a race to the bottom.
 
2014-04-16 03:48:26 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?


I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:07 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:36 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not really, no. You might be thinking a direct democracy vs a republican one?


Oh, well then, sure, we could support anyone and everyone, no matter who liked it or not.  But that doesn't usually happen.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:50 PM  

sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.


This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:58 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?


She was not alone. In Maria's high-rise suburb of Almgården an astonishing one in three voted for Sweden Democrats, a party dubbed "racist and neo-Nazi" and led by Jimmie Åkesson, the new young darling of the European far right.
The reason is plain. Maria pointed across the dual carriageway to the neighbouring housing scheme of Rosengård, known locally as "the ghetto".
It is home to almost 20,000 immigrants, overwhelmingly Muslim, almost half of them jobless.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far- ri ght-asylum


You are still so far away from a point you need radar to see it.
 
2014-04-16 03:50:43 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?


She was not alone. In Maria's high-rise suburb of Almgården an astonishing one in three voted for Sweden Democrats, a party dubbed "racist and neo-Nazi" and led by Jimmie Åkesson, the new young darling of the European far right.
The reason is plain. Maria pointed across the dual carriageway to the neighbouring housing scheme of Rosengård, known locally as "the ghetto".
It is home to almost 20,000 immigrants, overwhelmingly Muslim, almost half of them jobless.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far- ri ght-asylum


Are you trying to say that racism and xenophobia can exist in social democracies? Of course it can, that still doesn't make a lick of difference as far as the mechanics of welfare administration. A divided society is less likely to accept the idea of universal benefits, but that's a different discussion.
 
2014-04-16 03:50:47 PM  

sendtodave: cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not really, no. You might be thinking a direct democracy vs a republican one?

Oh, well then, sure, we could support anyone and everyone, no matter who liked it or not.  But that doesn't usually happen.


Why not?
 
2014-04-16 03:50:54 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.


You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."
 
2014-04-16 03:51:21 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?

I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.


Most of us DO see brown people as 'they same as they are' because they are, you know, people.

You it appears do not.
 
2014-04-16 03:52:00 PM  

sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


How do you explain social democracies like Canada and the UK then?
 
2014-04-16 03:52:19 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.


Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.
 
2014-04-16 03:53:27 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?

I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.

Most of us DO see brown people as 'they same as they are' because they are, you know, people.

You it appears do not.


I'm a racist because I acknowledge that racism exists.

Yes, of course.

If you went to any of the southern states, even now, would you still be part of "most of us?"
 
2014-04-16 03:53:50 PM  

sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


Reminds me of what Orson Scott Card said happened to Earth after Ender destroyed the Formic homeworld: the planet went from united against the alien scourge to seeing each other as the aliens.
 
2014-04-16 03:53:54 PM  

sendtodave: Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


Wait, are you saying the model country doesn't have universal healthcare because racism?

Are you f*cking serious?
 
2014-04-16 03:53:58 PM  

sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.
 
2014-04-16 03:54:46 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?

I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.

Most of us DO see brown people as 'they same as they are' because they are, you know, people.

You it appears do not.

I'm a racist because I acknowledge that racism exists.

Yes, of course.

If you went to any of the southern states, even now, would you still be part of "most of us?"


No, you're a racist because you believe that racism will somehow impair universal rights, without any shred of evidence, proof, or data.
 
2014-04-16 03:55:09 PM  
Tantaros then criticized a new French labor agreement allowing for "autonomous employees" in the tech and consulting fields to disconnect from work communications after working 13-hour days. "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?" she asked, not mentioning that that hour is not specified anywhere in the agreement.

Is it really so controversial to give people the right to not be worked to death, for fear of being fired?

You need about eight hours for sleep. After thirteen working and eight sleeping, you've got three hours left in the day.
That's barely enough time to eat, commute and use the farking bathroom as much as life demands  - to say nothing for doing chores or running errands to keep your life in order between weekends.
That's just what the farking law provides - enough time to not instantly burn out or die. And these assholes have a problem with this?
 
2014-04-16 03:55:26 PM  

Will-Mun: This guy really burns my ass for some reason. "Why are we looking to Europe, why not China!"


More to the point: Americans can't survive on the wages in China. I don't mean we couldn't afford luxuries, like refrigerators, we couldn't afford enough food to survive.

These people are idiots.
 
2014-04-16 03:55:58 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.


That's the problem word right there. Just because we think something should be done doesn't mean it will be done. And a lot of people have different opinions on what should be done. I suspect there is a not-so-insignificant number of people in America that think we should bring back slavery to civilize the heathen.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:01 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

How do you explain social democracies like Canada and the UK then?


Explain what?  How sameness/oherness might get in the way of things?

French Canadians don't exactly see themselves the same as other Canadians, and vice versa.

Most Brits I've met don't have a high opinion of Bangladeshi immigrants, etc.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:16 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.

Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


So you're saying that Swedes can manage their system even with clear issues with racism? Do you just think America is so much more racist than Sweden that it can't work here? Or that the system the Swedes use is not the Swedish system?

It's really a terrible objection that falls apart under even the most minor amount of scrutiny.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:43 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?


Wait, are you saying the people in Sweden or other n Europe countries are not racist?

EVERY group of people have some form of racism/bigotry...even if they look all the same to you.

Some people are more self aware than others but if you have a chance prod a foreign friend. You may be shocked to hear about the hill people, or the Catholics or the gypsies....etc

The point is...YOU see them as homogeneous, THEY have split themselves up in ways you will never know.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:47 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.

That's the problem word right there. Just because we think something should be done doesn't mean it will be done. And a lot of people have different opinions on what should be done. I suspect there is a not-so-insignificant number of people in America that think we should bring back slavery to civilize the heathen.


Sure, but obviously that number wasn't large enough to prevent the civil rights act. Just because some number of people oppose something doesn't mean it can't or won't be done. Look at Obamacare. A lot of people oppose that to this day and it is still law.
 
2014-04-16 03:58:47 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important


That's a fair point.  We should actually be better at it than, say, Northern Europe, or Asia, since we're already less homogeneous.
 
2014-04-16 03:58:57 PM  

Jster422: Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.


To jump in on this... Larger isn't a bug, it's a feature.  Larger means economies of scale.  Look at Canada- it shares a great deal in common with northern european economies, and has the same sort of diversity that the US does.  Imagine, delivering state services to a population and economy the size of California over a geographic area larger than the entire US, to a population equally diverse in its makeup.  Please don't tell me that somehow 'too big' is a problem.

The reason that it won't work in the US is that ingrained American culture reveres competition and is suspicious of co-operation, full stop.While northern european economies are a pragmatic blend of both, the US isn't governed from a pragmatic center.  It's governed as a tug-of-war between opposite ends of the spectrum, resulting in policies that are often the worst of both worlds, a cadillac program on a kia budget.  It's baked into your national DNA.
 
2014-04-16 03:59:27 PM  

sendtodave: French Canadians don't exactly see themselves the same as other Canadians, and vice versa.

Most Brits I've met don't have a high opinion of Bangladeshi immigrants, etc.


And yet they manage to continue to have a universal healthcare system, do they not? Or am I missing something here?
 
2014-04-16 04:00:31 PM  
Yes, let's race to the bottom and make life miserable for nearly everyone. Great plan!!

Remember, being incredibly wealthy but surrounded by squalor isn't really being wealthy. That's like living in a nice penthouse above a burned out rat infested shiathole.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:36 PM  

HawgWild: So ... they are for communism and socialism?

So confused ...


I'd like to travel back in time to Reagan's first inauguration and announce that 34 years later conservatives will say that the countries we should emulate are Russia and China, and that their favorite world leader will be the ex-KGB dictator of Russia.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:50 PM  
This guy really burns my ass for some reason. "Why are we looking to Europe, why not China!"

Probably because he's not truly say the "we" should be more like China.   He's saying that anyone who makes less than him should be more like Chinese workers.   If he was serious, he'd re-negotiate his contract for a $1 and start doing real work, not just flapping his mouth for a living.   He knows that they won't actually do away with minimum wage.   That would be political suicide for either party.   So it's just cheap, easy theorizing that paints the other side as weak with nothing actually being accomplished.  Rather than contributing something constructive to the dialogue, he's just making noise.

What the hell would eliminating the minimum wage do to the world economy?   It's the average working Americans that buy cheap Chinese made crap.   If we can't afford to buy that stuff, the Chinese economy will grind to a halt taking WalMart and a ton of other retail stores with it, which will mean even fewer jobs, and so on.   It's a dumb-ass idea.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:56 PM  

Aldon: The point is...YOU see them as homogeneous, THEY have split themselves up in ways you will never know.


Sure.

AN OVERVIEW OF SOCIAL DOMINANCE THEORY
The trimorphic structure of group-based social hierarchy

Social dominance theory argues that societies producing stable economic surplus contain three qualitatively distinct systems of group-based hierarchy: (1) an age system, in which adults have disproportionate social power over children; (2) a gender system, in which men have disproportionate social, political, and military power compared to women; and (3) an arbitrary-set system, in which groups constructed on ''arbitrary'' bases, that is, on bases not linked to the human life-cycle, have differential access to things of positive and negative social value. Arbitrary-set groups may be defined by social distinctions meaningfully related to power, such as (in various contexts) nationality, ''race'', ethnicity, class, estate, descent, religion, or clan. Parallel trimorphic structures (based on age, sex, and coalitions) are found in chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and baboons (Kawanaka, 1982, 1989; Nadler, 1988; Rowell, 1974; Strier, 1994). Such a social organisation may help primate societies transmit skills, knowledge, and ideas, while also transmitting roles and power.


There are a million arbitrary in-groups and out-groups.  Race is just one.  Just it's a big one.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:56 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]


We can't. They already sent those jobs to China.
 
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