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(The Raw Story)   Fox News hosts drop the pretense and articulate their real vision of what they want for average Americans "That's what we should have - no labor law and no minimum wage, they work for a dollar a week"   (rawstory.com) divider line 285
    More: Obvious, Fox News, Eric Bolling, Bob Beckel, Andrea Tantaros, dollars  
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5873 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Apr 2014 at 2:15 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-16 02:38:07 PM  
The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.  Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.
 
2014-04-16 02:39:19 PM  

Dr Dreidel: "But what if they took six hours and it turned out that they were getting more productivity and they were doing a better job?" Beckel asked, once again pushing back.

[img.4plebs.org image 300x225]


That's two independent thought alarms in one day. The hosts must be overstimulated. Willie, remove all the colored chalk from the sets.
 
2014-04-16 02:39:48 PM  

edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.


If you hold a history degree - and claim that minimum wage and labor laws should be repealed - your degree should be revoked by your alma mater.
 
2014-04-16 02:40:27 PM  

factoryconnection: Big story in the news yesterday: rent in many cities is rising out of reach of workers.  Fox News solution: drop workers' wages.

Seriously, you blind f*ck, explain to me how that will help ANYTHING.  You can't buy f*cking gas to drive back and forth to work for $8/day (gross), much less afford food, housing, insurance, a car, clothing, anything else.  Our society is built around the car; there is not housing near most places of work that employ the bottom of the ladder types.

This man seems like he is simply pure evil, and yet there were no doubt thousands of viewers just eating this sh*t right up.  "Yeah, that's the ticket... Chinese labor practices, Chinese environmental regulations, let's be just like China!"


Work dormitories. Why should workers even be leaving the office? Just have cots in the corner so they don't waste any company time "commuting".

Also, if workers can't afford to buy needed items at stores, the company should just open up their own stores in which employees can better spend their money. After employees realize how great this is, they'll end up spending all their money at these stores of the company, so might as well simplify things and pay them with money that can only be used at these locations. Just makes sense.
 
2014-04-16 02:41:10 PM  

ongbok: Lord_Baull: I'm totally surprised Fox News would look to a communist authoritarian regime to model their labor laws after.

Why? Just a few weeks ago they were looking to one, although not an open communist, as their example of a strong leader.



By totally surprised, I mean not surprised in the least.
 
2014-04-16 02:43:27 PM  
For a buck an hour, it wouldn't be worth it. It would be much easier to rob overpaid TV "journalists," wouldn't you think?
 
2014-04-16 02:43:50 PM  
Population of China: 1.351 billion  people
GDP of China: 8.227 trillion USD

Population of Sweden: 9.517 million people
GDP of Sweden: 525.7 billion USD

China: $6,062 per person
Sweden: $55,2379 per person.

And which country does this guy want us to imitate?
 
2014-04-16 02:44:07 PM  

El Pachuco: The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.   Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.


I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."
 
2014-04-16 02:44:19 PM  

Magorn: real_headhoncho: Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.

I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.

You don't wanna get Popeslapped especially not by this guy Benedict keeps his popehand STRONG.

/is Pope Benedict gonna have to choke a bishop?


Pope who?
 
2014-04-16 02:44:20 PM  

mcreadyblue: millsapian87: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.

Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


Because the age was raised in the 80's. It's time we stop insisting that sacrifices for the good of the whole country should only be made by those who can least afford to sacrifice.
This is biblical, people.
 
2014-04-16 02:44:52 PM  

Car_Ramrod: factoryconnection: Big story in the news yesterday: rent in many cities is rising out of reach of workers.  Fox News solution: drop workers' wages.

Seriously, you blind f*ck, explain to me how that will help ANYTHING.  You can't buy f*cking gas to drive back and forth to work for $8/day (gross), much less afford food, housing, insurance, a car, clothing, anything else.  Our society is built around the car; there is not housing near most places of work that employ the bottom of the ladder types.

This man seems like he is simply pure evil, and yet there were no doubt thousands of viewers just eating this sh*t right up.  "Yeah, that's the ticket... Chinese labor practices, Chinese environmental regulations, let's be just like China!"

Work dormitories. Why should workers even be leaving the office? Just have cots in the corner so they don't waste any company time "commuting".

Also, if workers can't afford to buy needed items at stores, the company should just open up their own stores in which employees can better spend their money. After employees realize how great this is, they'll end up spending all their money at these stores of the company, so might as well simplify things and pay them with money that can only be used at these locations. Just makes sense.



Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Cain't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't a-get you
Then the left one will

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
 
2014-04-16 02:45:07 PM  

Wade_Wilson: Population of China: 1.351 billion  people
GDP of China: 8.227 trillion USD

Population of Sweden: 9.517 million people
GDP of Sweden: 525.7 billion USD

China: $6,062 per person
Sweden: $55,237 per person.

And which country does this guy want us to imitate?


FTFM. Left out a decimal.
 
2014-04-16 02:45:35 PM  
I guess numbnuts here doesn't realize that if you pay workers next to nothing, all your stores and businesses will be empty.  They'll have no money to spend on you.
 
2014-04-16 02:46:03 PM  
If anything, we need to be outsourcing our business leadership in this country, since we're paying far more than other countries, and seem to be getting poorer and poorer performance in return.
 
2014-04-16 02:47:09 PM  

mcreadyblue: millsapian87: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.

Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


People who actually work manually probably won't make it to 70 before they are disabled anyway so let's just raise it.
 
2014-04-16 02:47:44 PM  

somedude210: Oh for fark's sake. Sure, go for that you assholes. You harp on and on about things like unions without actually knowing a single thing about how they came about. You take away the rights of the workers and they will rise up against you. You're trying so very very hard to be the frontline in the war on communism that you've been fighting since the 1900s. You take away those rights for workers, claim it as a win for capitalism and watch how quickly those workers rise up against you. You'll win the goddamn battle but you'll lose the war.


That right there. I'm almost in favor of this, just to see the heads on pikes.
 
2014-04-16 02:49:15 PM  

Best Princess Celestia: "If you work well, you will be treated well."

What wrong with Rura Penthe laws?


Arbeit macht frei?
 
2014-04-16 02:50:14 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".
 
2014-04-16 02:52:51 PM  
Of course this is his point o view.  Until someone comes along and offers to do his job for $1 a week.  Seriously, there are probably thousands willing to do his job for much less and based on cost/benefit analysis, at some point he will be kicked to the curb.
 
2014-04-16 02:53:03 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one ...

Damn you, Fark, for cutting off the one bit I actually wanted to quote.

Don'tcha just love how (according to people like the guy you linked to) American Exceptionalism will let us accomplish anything we put our minds to, except when it comes to pulling off something that other countries have been doing for years, or even decades?

"We're Number One! We're smarter than everyone else! We're better than everyone else! We're special!"
"So why can't we do like other countries?"
"Um... we're too special."
 
2014-04-16 02:53:15 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]


Okay, but I also get to do what my great grand father did. Use barb wire whips on company executives until they paid reasonable wages. No, I'm not kidding great grand-dad was a coal miner and union organizer.
 
2014-04-16 02:54:52 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".


Yeah, too bad that the fastest the American economy has ever grown coincided with the lowest levels of inequality we ever had.
 
2014-04-16 02:55:15 PM  

Alphax: I guess numbnuts here doesn't realize that if you pay workers next to nothing, all your stores and businesses will be empty.  They'll have no money to spend on you.


They haven't gotten to that yet. Remember these are the types of people who can't think two steps ahead. They only think in the right now, and if right now they see somebody who they think shouldn't be able to own the same stuff as they own, they need to make it so that now they can't, even if that means setting up a condition that will eventually mean disaster for themselves also.
 
2014-04-16 02:56:06 PM  
"Oh we'll march day and night
By the big cooling tower.
They have the plant
But we have the power."
 
2014-04-16 02:56:29 PM  
What makes  Eric Bolling think that he won't be one of those people working for a dollar a week?
 
2014-04-16 02:57:34 PM  
We could be just like China. Why are you commie liberals holding us back?
 
2014-04-16 02:58:30 PM  

Serious Black: El Pachuco: The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.   Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.

I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straigh ...


Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.
 
2014-04-16 02:58:54 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: This just in: Fox "News" hosts are drooling fascist retards


And also hypocrites because you know they don't really work all that hard.


Also, re: "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?"

They think no one should be able to do whatever they want when they're not at work? Who thinks like that?

Wow. Just... wow.
 
2014-04-16 02:59:41 PM  

Great_Milenko: What makes  Eric Bolling think that he won't be one of those people working for a dollar a week?


Because reasons.

People who make the arguments for paying people peanuts always think that their job is too important to be relegated to the work for peanuts pile.
 
2014-04-16 03:04:22 PM  

somedude210: You take away the rights of the workers and they will rise up against you. You're trying so very very hard to be the frontline in the war on communism that you've been fighting since the 1900s. You take away those rights for workers, claim it as a win for capitalism and watch how quickly those workers rise up against you. You'll win the goddamn battle but you'll lose the war.


I played a gig for a union gathering once, and they had a slideshow called "Before there were unions".  It discussed working conditions before unions existed.

I won't deny that it was a gripping presentation.

/not a union member
 
2014-04-16 03:09:00 PM  

mcreadyblue: Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


Remove the FICA cap and cap payouts at median income and the "problem" is solved for the next century.
 
2014-04-16 03:09:14 PM  

Rhaab: Don'tcha just love how (according to people like the guy you linked to) American Exceptionalism will let us accomplish anything we put our minds to, except when it comes to pulling off something that other countries have been doing for years, or even decades?

"We're Number One! We're smarter than everyone else! We're better than everyone else! We're special!"
"So why can't we do like other countries?"
"Um... we're too special."


Jster422: Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.


I wouldn't disagree with either of these points.
 
2014-04-16 03:09:59 PM  

Rixel: Magorn: real_headhoncho: Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.

I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.

You don't wanna get Popeslapped especially not by this guy Benedict keeps his popehand STRONG.

/is Pope Benedict gonna have to choke a bishop?

Pope who?


yEah talk about a brain fart My mind SAID  Francis but my Hands typed the last schmuck...
 
2014-04-16 03:11:35 PM  

mcreadyblue: SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


Part of the problem with raising the eligibility age for SS and Medicare is that life expectancy is correlated to income:

www.motherjones.com

In short, doing this will rampantly fark the poor up the ass.
 
2014-04-16 03:13:59 PM  

quizzical: "Oh we'll march day and night
By the big cooling tower.
They have the plant
But we have the power."


Now do Classical Gas
 
2014-04-16 03:15:02 PM  

Serious Black: Rhaab: Don'tcha just love how (according to people like the guy you linked to) American Exceptionalism will let us accomplish anything we put our minds to, except when it comes to pulling off something that other countries have been doing for years, or even decades?

"We're Number One! We're smarter than everyone else! We're better than everyone else! We're special!"
"So why can't we do like other countries?"
"Um... we're too special."

Jster422: Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.

I wouldn't disagree with either of these points.


Gotcha, I think I misinterpreted your statement as 'why we can't', as opposed to 'why we won't'.  You get the same counterarguments when looking at education reform.  Nordic schools (or atleast Finnish schools, iirc) have a very different approach, and see excellent results - but we seeming can't possibly move to that model in place of our more expensive, less effective one.

Because competition and evaluation uber alles.
 
2014-04-16 03:15:19 PM  

SquiggsIN: El Pachuco: * because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.

Of course it is.  We've been electing Mitt Romney's for centuries and that's gone a long way toward ensuring that Mitt Romney's benefit from the system and keep getting elected to ensure that next generation's Mitt Romney's have a hand up.

Incumbency needs to die.  Legalized bribery needs to die.  Term limits need mandated or it continues in any and all political parties that exist or will exist.


Term limits would do absolutely nothing to fix the problems you name.
 
2014-04-16 03:17:20 PM  
China has minimum wage laws.

Most factory wages are higher than the minimum.
 
2014-04-16 03:17:37 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.
 
2014-04-16 03:18:31 PM  
Well no 1 curr, but did anybody actually read the damn article to find out who uttered the quote in the headline?

Fox News host Eric Bolling and most of his colleagues on The Five dismissed seemingly the whole idea of a balance between life and work on Tuesday, with Bolling suggesting that the U.S. look to China, and not Europe, for inspiration.

"Some of the economies that are starting to kick our butt, those people work hard," Bolling said. "There aren't labor laws, there aren't minimum wages, they're working harder than we are."

"That's what we should have - no labor law and no minimum wage," co-host Bob Beckel countered. "They work for a dollar a week."


Beckel is the closest thing to a token liberal you're going to see as a regular on a Fox News show, and he was engaging in hyperbole to demonstrate the foolishness of his colleague's proposal.

Not that it matters, since in context the other hosts seemed to be advocating that scenario anyway.

Because America is the Land of the Free.  And what makes you free?  Work.
 
2014-04-16 03:19:47 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.


The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.
 
2014-04-16 03:20:20 PM  
I'm going to drop this right here..

The perfect slave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIB8jDS76f0
 
2014-04-16 03:20:42 PM  
Fine.  We'll start with you FOX news assholes.  The first one to biatch about it gets a bullet in the head.  So does the last one.
 
2014-04-16 03:21:37 PM  
This always bugs me to hear about how China has "No Labor Laws."  They actually have a relatively detailed set of laws in regards to safety, wage, and social welfare.  The problem is that they have little to no enforcement in practice, no education on the presence of those laws, and I don't think they even have communication requirements on these laws (think the state/fed postings in the breakroom at your work.  China doesn't do that)  

If we followed Chinese regulations with US levels of enforcement, big business would be screaming uncle when they had to pitch in for higher number of holidays with mandatory triple pay for work on the holiday, extended social welfare contributions, housing for employees (ok, its shiatty housing in china...)  and mandatory employment contracts....
 
2014-04-16 03:24:08 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.


Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.
 
2014-04-16 03:24:38 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".

Yeah, too bad that the fastest the American economy has ever grown coincided with the lowest levels of inequality we ever had.


Agreed. Hence the bit at the end where the author claims that in inability of American capitalism to deliver on its promises will be the start of a leftward social/progressive swing in the U.S.
 
2014-04-16 03:26:46 PM  
For their raving about a "War on Christmas", the far right is more like Scrooge from the first half of "A Christmas Carol" than they think.

"At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge, ... it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?"
"Plenty of prisons..."
"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"Both very busy, sir..."
"Those who are badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

If Scrooge said the final line at CPAC, he'd get a standing ovation.
 
2014-04-16 03:27:04 PM  

Will-Mun: Boardering on slave labour, and pushing the workforce to the point of suicide to such a degree, they need to have safety nets on the side of the building?


OK.  Guys?  Seriously.

They weren't killing themselves because of "slave labor."

They were killing themselves because they were under tremendous social and familial pressure, likely coupled with depression.   Pretty much the same reason anyone kills themselves.

I know from experience, the average factory worker, starting out, makes around 1500-3000 RMB per month.  The average waitress, starting out, makes about 1500-3000 RMB per month. The average office worker, starting out make about 1500-3000 RMB per month.

So, if you work in a factory, and your mom gets cancer, and you can't make enough to pay for the medical bills?  Or, you want to get married, but you can't afford a house (it's typical for men to have to buy them before marriage)?  Or, a hundred other socioeconomic hardships?

Do you blame the factory?
 
2014-04-16 03:27:24 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.


My suspicion is that he means a number of white people in America don't want to help those heathen ni-BONGs and those greasy beaners.
 
2014-04-16 03:29:24 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.


That's my point. No one ever explains why the Swedish model won't work when your population includes brown people. Especially in the US, where new immigrants tend to assimilate faster than immigrants to Europe. Again, sounds like BS or veiled racism.
 
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