Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Raw Story)   Fox News hosts drop the pretense and articulate their real vision of what they want for average Americans "That's what we should have - no labor law and no minimum wage, they work for a dollar a week"   (rawstory.com) divider line 285
    More: Obvious, Fox News, Eric Bolling, Bob Beckel, Andrea Tantaros, dollars  
•       •       •

5873 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Apr 2014 at 2:15 PM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



285 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2014-04-16 01:07:55 PM  
The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.
 
2014-04-16 01:10:58 PM  
This just in: Fox "News" hosts are drooling fascist retards
 
2014-04-16 01:14:39 PM  
Yeah.  China builds ghost cities to keep people employed.  A large percentage of the country is literally employed to do busy work in order to keep the peace.  Something tells me that the brain trust at The Five would shiat the bed if the government were paying people to build giant, empty  metropolii in the middle of the Dakotas.
 
2014-04-16 01:19:56 PM  
A simplistic analysis that can barely adhere to the surface of the issue, leading to wildly incorrect conclusions?  From Fox News, no less?

Well slap my ass and call me "Sally."
 
2014-04-16 01:24:42 PM  
Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.
 
2014-04-16 01:34:11 PM  

Diogenes: A simplistic analysis that can barely adhere to the surface of the issue, leading to wildly incorrect conclusions?  From Fox News, no less?

Well slap my ass and call me "Sally."


Hiya Sally

/*wink*
 
2014-04-16 01:34:37 PM  
Oh yes.  Take labor practice concept from China.  That's a great idea.  It'll be a boon to the Suicide Prevention Netting Company of Toledo, Ohio.


No one will ever accuse Eric of being a rational human being, he qualifies for neither.
 
2014-04-16 01:37:49 PM  
"But what if they took six hours and it turned out that they were getting more productivity and they were doing a better job?" Beckel asked, once again pushing back.

img.4plebs.org
 
2014-04-16 01:43:34 PM  

Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.


I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.
 
2014-04-16 01:44:13 PM  
So ... they are for communism and socialism?

So confused ...
 
2014-04-16 01:51:31 PM  
Oh for fark's sake. Sure, go for that you assholes. You harp on and on about things like unions without actually knowing a single thing about how they came about. You take away the rights of the workers and they will rise up against you. You're trying so very very hard to be the frontline in the war on communism that you've been fighting since the 1900s. You take away those rights for workers, claim it as a win for capitalism and watch how quickly those workers rise up against you. You'll win the goddamn battle but you'll lose the war.
 
2014-04-16 01:52:54 PM  

real_headhoncho: Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.

I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.


You don't wanna get Popeslapped especially not by this guy Benedict keeps his popehand STRONG.

/is Pope Benedict gonna have to choke a bishop?
 
2014-04-16 01:56:43 PM  

somedude210: Oh for fark's sake. Sure, go for that you assholes. You harp on and on about things like unions without actually knowing a single thing about how they came about. You take away the rights of the workers and they will rise up against you. You're trying so very very hard to be the frontline in the war on communism that you've been fighting since the 1900s. You take away those rights for workers, claim it as a win for capitalism and watch how quickly those workers rise up against you. You'll win the goddamn battle but you'll lose the war.



They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there;
You'll either be a union man,
Or a thug for J. H. Blair.

Which side are you on?
Which side are you on boys ?
Which side are you on?

Oh workers can you stand it?
Oh tell me how you can.
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?
 
2014-04-16 02:03:41 PM  
FTFA: "Those are government guys that are actually getting their hours cut back - which I agree with. I would pay all government workers not to work."

Ah, so you're a fan of this Congress then.


Also FTA: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. "But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."

Did.. Did a small nugget of truth, however intentional, slip out of a Fox News Host's mouth?

Again FTA: Tantaros then criticized a new French labor agreement allowing for "autonomous employees" in the tech and consulting fields to disconnect from work communications after working 13-hour days.
"Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?" she asked, not mentioning that that hour is not specified anywhere in the agreement.


fark you and your pretense. If I'm not scheduled or ON THE CLOCK, my job has no right to expect me to be available to them.

This guy really burns my ass for some reason. "Why are we looking to Europe, why not China!" Cause China's workforce policies are regressive and horrible? Boardering on slave labour, and pushing the workforce to the point of suicide to such a degree, they need to have safety nets on the side of the building?

But no lets work 14 hour shifts with 4 hours off all for pennies an hour. That sounds FANTASTIC. Why do we want to emulate Europe even though we have a better economy (Something that is debatable.)? Because their quality of life? Generally better than ours! We don't just want to make more money, we want to BE HAPPY.

Sorry, just got a little... aggravated there. How the hell do you even think that...? Be like China.,,
 
2014-04-16 02:12:44 PM  
It's amazing how little it takes for conservatives to fawn over KGB dictators and Chinese business practices.
 
2014-04-16 02:14:21 PM  
between their deep love of vladimir putin and now china, you can really see how far their obama derangement syndrome has gone. i mean, when their deep, visceral, pathological hatred of the black guy pushes them into the arms of current and former communist enemies of the united states... what would saint reagan say if he were alive?
 
2014-04-16 02:19:56 PM  
Please send him to China to do the news.
He'll love it.
 
2014-04-16 02:22:09 PM  

edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.


I never saw anyone in my science/math classes, in high school or college, who was a journalism major.
 
2014-04-16 02:22:12 PM  
The GOP loses elections because of their lack of real economic understanding

Fox News wonks should insist that they themselves are paid low wages before recommending others to work for nothing
 
2014-04-16 02:23:39 PM  

FlashHarry: between their deep love of vladimir putin and now china, you can really see how far their obama derangement syndrome has gone. i mean, when their deep, visceral, pathological hatred of the black guy pushes them into the arms of current and former communist enemies of the united states... what would saint reagan say if he were alive?


Reagan was gay. He'd be head-over-heels in love with pootey-poot.
 
2014-04-16 02:24:28 PM  
Doesn't China use slave prison labor?  That's what we should do.
 
2014-04-16 02:25:33 PM  
Well when the difference between me and my family starving is a bullet to these assholes head, lets just say I have lots of bullets.
 
2014-04-16 02:26:13 PM  
I'll bet that Rupert Murdoch would be willing to start this by dropping all of their salaries to $1.00 a week and make them work 14 hours a day. Let's see how that would go over then...
 
2014-04-16 02:26:14 PM  

Magorn: real_headhoncho: Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.

I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.

You don't wanna get Popeslapped especially not by this guy Benedict keeps his popehand STRONG.

/is Pope Benedict gonna have to choke a bishop?


Wear you been
 
2014-04-16 02:28:23 PM  
"It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.
 
2014-04-16 02:28:28 PM  
"If you work well, you will be treated well."

What wrong with Rura Penthe laws?
 
2014-04-16 02:28:37 PM  

Will-Mun: FTFA: "Those are government guys that are actually getting their hours cut back - which I agree with. I would pay all government workers not to work."

Ah, so you're a fan of this Congress then.


Also FTA: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. "But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."

Did.. Did a small nugget of truth, however intentional, slip out of a Fox News Host's mouth?

Again FTA: Tantaros then criticized a new French labor agreement allowing for "autonomous employees" in the tech and consulting fields to disconnect from work communications after working 13-hour days.
"Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?" she asked, not mentioning that that hour is not specified anywhere in the agreement.

fark you and your pretense. If I'm not scheduled or ON THE CLOCK, my job has no right to expect me to be available to them.

This guy really burns my ass for some reason. "Why are we looking to Europe, why not China!" Cause China's workforce policies are regressive and horrible? Boardering on slave labour, and pushing the workforce to the point of suicide to such a degree, they need to have safety nets on the side of the building?

But no lets work 14 hour shifts with 4 hours off all for pennies an hour. That sounds FANTASTIC. Why do we want to emulate Europe even though we have a better economy (Something that is debatable.)? Because their quality of life? Generally better than ours! We don't just want to make more money, we want to BE HAPPY.

Sorry, just got a little... aggravated there. How the hell do you even think that...? Be like China.,,


Well not to mention this asshole thinks that if corporations could pay what ever the fark they wanted that profits would soar. The reality is paying people a dollar an hour or hell a dollar a day would cause the value of everything to crash into the dirt. Suddenly that $3 gallon of milk is now only worth $.50 and nobody uses the internet, cell phones, or cars because we can't afford to spend money anything not survival related.

This is a brilliant idea if you want to have 1929 style crash of the economy.
 
2014-04-16 02:28:45 PM  
Not shocked at all.  Look at India.  Look at Mexico.  This is what the Republican party wants.  An inexhaustible supply of dirt cheap labor.  Not for our benefit, of course, but because it'll allow the already disgustingly rich to get even richer.  That's why they've put so much time and effort into limiting the rights of workers to unionize.  That's why they've put so much time and effort into trying to legislate women to the level of breeding cattle.  It's why they've put so much time and effort into weakening our public education system.  It's not religious based, it's not pro-America based, it's profit based.  The people who have the biggest pull are the ones giving the Republicans the most dollars.  And that's not you or me.
 
2014-04-16 02:29:03 PM  
What always gets me about these people when they say these things is that they don't seem to realize that they are working for a paycheck also. What is to stop their employer from deciding that they only need to be paid peanuts also? They for some reason think that they are special and don't realize if you can make one person work for peanuts, the same can be done with their job.
 
2014-04-16 02:29:10 PM  
Big story in the news yesterday: rent in many cities is rising out of reach of workers.  Fox News solution: drop workers' wages.

Seriously, you blind f*ck, explain to me how that will help ANYTHING.  You can't buy f*cking gas to drive back and forth to work for $8/day (gross), much less afford food, housing, insurance, a car, clothing, anything else.  Our society is built around the car; there is not housing near most places of work that employ the bottom of the ladder types.

This man seems like he is simply pure evil, and yet there were no doubt thousands of viewers just eating this sh*t right up.  "Yeah, that's the ticket... Chinese labor practices, Chinese environmental regulations, let's be just like China!"
 
2014-04-16 02:29:25 PM  

rogue49: Please send him to China to do the news.
He'll love it.


Either way, someone else is doing the thinking for him.  He'll probably take to it in no time.
 
2014-04-16 02:30:00 PM  
FTFA: "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?"

What the fark does that even mean?  They want robots apparently, or people who are working every second they are awake... we have a word for that... slave.
 
2014-04-16 02:30:11 PM  

FloridaFarkTag: The GOP loses elections because of their lack of real economic understanding

Fox News wonks should insist that they themselves are paid low wages before recommending others to work for nothing

They're the economy-stupid!
 
2014-04-16 02:30:45 PM  
how have we beat the swedes if they are happier and healthier than we are?
 
2014-04-16 02:30:50 PM  
What the fark do these talking heads do that contribute to American society? What product or service do they provide that is essential to America's success? Why does Eric Bolling deserve to get paid more than $1 a year?

"Some of the economies that are starting to kick our butt, those people work hard,"
"Why does America always want to adopt the policies of the people we beat?"
"They're basically announcing, 'Guess what? We're making it even harder for us to compete with you."


What competition between countries is he alluding to? GDP? GDP per capita? Manufacturing output? Imports vs exports? Average income? Happiness levels? Corporate profits?

Which competition(s) are we winning, which actually affect the average American, and which does the average American actually care about? Stop using vague concepts like "winning" and make a goddamn argument.

Tantaros then criticized a new French labor agreement allowing for "autonomous employees" in the tech and consulting fields to disconnect from work communications after working 13-hour days.

"Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?" she asked, not mentioning that that hour is not specified anywhere in the agreement.



Oh fark you. Unless you're involved in saving lives, that email can wait until tomorrow morning. Or, heaven forbid, Monday morning.
 
2014-04-16 02:31:17 PM  

millsapian87: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.


Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.
 
2014-04-16 02:32:25 PM  
When Fox's camera was rolling
Eric Bolling
Was trolling.

/I give him this benefit of doubt, because no one can possibly be so dumb
 
2014-04-16 02:33:55 PM  
I'm totally surprised Fox News would look to a communist authoritarian regime to model their labor laws after.
 
2014-04-16 02:34:47 PM  

mcreadyblue: Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


that's because that will just push it back out 20 years. Democrats have been pushing for getting rid of the cap of taxable income to more accurately reflect income these days and *poof* we're pretty fiscally secure.

...oh wait, you're just one of those people that don't like those greedy moochers getting hand outs from the government, aren't you?
 
2014-04-16 02:35:02 PM  

FlashHarry: between their deep love of vladimir putin and now china, you can really see how far their obama derangement syndrome has gone. i mean, when their deep, visceral, pathological hatred of the black guy pushes them into the arms of current and former communist enemies of the united states... what would saint reagan say if he were alive?


"I don't recall"

-Rand Paul
 
2014-04-16 02:35:46 PM  
Yes let's go back to this.

img.fark.net

and this

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-16 02:36:25 PM  
"But what if they took six hours and it turned out that they were getting more productivity and they were doing a better job?" Beckel asked, once again pushing back.

"It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. "But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."


Dafuq? Non sequitur much?
 
2014-04-16 02:36:51 PM  
I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
Alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.

"The Copper Bosses killed you Joe,
They shot you Joe" says I.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man"
Says Joe "I didn't die"
Says Joe "I didn't die"

"In Salt Lake City, Joe," says I,
Him standing by my bed,
"They framed you on a murder charge,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."

And standing there as big as life
and smiling with his eyes.
Says Joe "What they forgot to kill
Went on to organize,
Went on to organize"

From San Diego up to Maine,
in every mine and mill,
Where working men defend their rights,
It's there you'll find Joe Hill,
It's there you'll find Joe Hill!

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
Alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.
 
2014-04-16 02:36:52 PM  
Bloody communists, that's what these Fox hosts have become.
 
2014-04-16 02:37:22 PM  

ongbok: What always gets me about these people when they say these things is that they don't seem to realize that they are working for a paycheck also. What is to stop their employer from deciding that they only need to be paid peanuts also? They for some reason think that they are special and don't realize if you can make one person work for peanuts, the same can be done with their job.


They believe that they're special, that they earned their spot through gumption, moxie, pluck, and a bunch of other old-timey words, and that they're worth every penny.

Of course, they also think that graphic that shows various employees' wages - firefighters, cops, teachers, soldiers/airmen/Marines/sailors - as $15-16/hour and then asks "Why should burger-flippers make that much?" makes their point about "lazy entitled moochers", rather than making the Democrats' points that these employees should be able to collectively bargain for a better deal, and that their salaries are set by Legislatures just like the minimum wage is. (And the point that many low-wage jobs are set in relation to minimum-wage laws, meaning EVERYONE's going to see a bump over that 2-year raise.)

So, you know, adjust accordingly.
 
2014-04-16 02:37:28 PM  
Why is it that your average idiot who believes this shiat thinks they will be at the top living the good life and not living a shiat life as slave labor.
Do they think that the only people that will make shiat for money and have no quality of life will be all the welfare cheats or something
Go ahead live in a country like China but the odds are not in your favor for benefiting from the system of treating workers like property.
 
2014-04-16 02:37:44 PM  
Hmm, I suspect most Fox News listeners would be against infrastructure spending like what China is doing...
 
2014-04-16 02:37:45 PM  
Does he also advocate for the suicide nets?

i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2014-04-16 02:37:50 PM  

stonicus: FTFA: "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?"

What the fark does that even mean?  They want robots apparently, or people who are working every second they are awake... we have a word for that... slave.


Remember that painfully stupid Cadillac (I think) commercial with Neil McDonough?
 
2014-04-16 02:37:56 PM  

Lord_Baull: I'm totally surprised Fox News would look to a communist authoritarian regime to model their labor laws after.


Why? Just a few weeks ago they were looking to one, although not an open communist, as their example of a strong leader.
 
2014-04-16 02:38:07 PM  
The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.  Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.
 
2014-04-16 02:39:19 PM  

Dr Dreidel: "But what if they took six hours and it turned out that they were getting more productivity and they were doing a better job?" Beckel asked, once again pushing back.

[img.4plebs.org image 300x225]


That's two independent thought alarms in one day. The hosts must be overstimulated. Willie, remove all the colored chalk from the sets.
 
2014-04-16 02:39:48 PM  

edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.


If you hold a history degree - and claim that minimum wage and labor laws should be repealed - your degree should be revoked by your alma mater.
 
2014-04-16 02:40:27 PM  

factoryconnection: Big story in the news yesterday: rent in many cities is rising out of reach of workers.  Fox News solution: drop workers' wages.

Seriously, you blind f*ck, explain to me how that will help ANYTHING.  You can't buy f*cking gas to drive back and forth to work for $8/day (gross), much less afford food, housing, insurance, a car, clothing, anything else.  Our society is built around the car; there is not housing near most places of work that employ the bottom of the ladder types.

This man seems like he is simply pure evil, and yet there were no doubt thousands of viewers just eating this sh*t right up.  "Yeah, that's the ticket... Chinese labor practices, Chinese environmental regulations, let's be just like China!"


Work dormitories. Why should workers even be leaving the office? Just have cots in the corner so they don't waste any company time "commuting".

Also, if workers can't afford to buy needed items at stores, the company should just open up their own stores in which employees can better spend their money. After employees realize how great this is, they'll end up spending all their money at these stores of the company, so might as well simplify things and pay them with money that can only be used at these locations. Just makes sense.
 
2014-04-16 02:41:10 PM  

ongbok: Lord_Baull: I'm totally surprised Fox News would look to a communist authoritarian regime to model their labor laws after.

Why? Just a few weeks ago they were looking to one, although not an open communist, as their example of a strong leader.



By totally surprised, I mean not surprised in the least.
 
2014-04-16 02:43:27 PM  
For a buck an hour, it wouldn't be worth it. It would be much easier to rob overpaid TV "journalists," wouldn't you think?
 
2014-04-16 02:43:50 PM  
Population of China: 1.351 billion  people
GDP of China: 8.227 trillion USD

Population of Sweden: 9.517 million people
GDP of Sweden: 525.7 billion USD

China: $6,062 per person
Sweden: $55,2379 per person.

And which country does this guy want us to imitate?
 
2014-04-16 02:44:07 PM  

El Pachuco: The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.   Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.


I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."
 
2014-04-16 02:44:19 PM  

Magorn: real_headhoncho: Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.

I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.

You don't wanna get Popeslapped especially not by this guy Benedict keeps his popehand STRONG.

/is Pope Benedict gonna have to choke a bishop?


Pope who?
 
2014-04-16 02:44:20 PM  

mcreadyblue: millsapian87: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.

Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


Because the age was raised in the 80's. It's time we stop insisting that sacrifices for the good of the whole country should only be made by those who can least afford to sacrifice.
This is biblical, people.
 
2014-04-16 02:44:52 PM  

Car_Ramrod: factoryconnection: Big story in the news yesterday: rent in many cities is rising out of reach of workers.  Fox News solution: drop workers' wages.

Seriously, you blind f*ck, explain to me how that will help ANYTHING.  You can't buy f*cking gas to drive back and forth to work for $8/day (gross), much less afford food, housing, insurance, a car, clothing, anything else.  Our society is built around the car; there is not housing near most places of work that employ the bottom of the ladder types.

This man seems like he is simply pure evil, and yet there were no doubt thousands of viewers just eating this sh*t right up.  "Yeah, that's the ticket... Chinese labor practices, Chinese environmental regulations, let's be just like China!"

Work dormitories. Why should workers even be leaving the office? Just have cots in the corner so they don't waste any company time "commuting".

Also, if workers can't afford to buy needed items at stores, the company should just open up their own stores in which employees can better spend their money. After employees realize how great this is, they'll end up spending all their money at these stores of the company, so might as well simplify things and pay them with money that can only be used at these locations. Just makes sense.



Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Cain't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't a-get you
Then the left one will

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
 
2014-04-16 02:45:07 PM  

Wade_Wilson: Population of China: 1.351 billion  people
GDP of China: 8.227 trillion USD

Population of Sweden: 9.517 million people
GDP of Sweden: 525.7 billion USD

China: $6,062 per person
Sweden: $55,237 per person.

And which country does this guy want us to imitate?


FTFM. Left out a decimal.
 
2014-04-16 02:45:35 PM  
I guess numbnuts here doesn't realize that if you pay workers next to nothing, all your stores and businesses will be empty.  They'll have no money to spend on you.
 
2014-04-16 02:46:03 PM  
If anything, we need to be outsourcing our business leadership in this country, since we're paying far more than other countries, and seem to be getting poorer and poorer performance in return.
 
2014-04-16 02:47:09 PM  

mcreadyblue: millsapian87: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.

Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


People who actually work manually probably won't make it to 70 before they are disabled anyway so let's just raise it.
 
2014-04-16 02:47:44 PM  

somedude210: Oh for fark's sake. Sure, go for that you assholes. You harp on and on about things like unions without actually knowing a single thing about how they came about. You take away the rights of the workers and they will rise up against you. You're trying so very very hard to be the frontline in the war on communism that you've been fighting since the 1900s. You take away those rights for workers, claim it as a win for capitalism and watch how quickly those workers rise up against you. You'll win the goddamn battle but you'll lose the war.


That right there. I'm almost in favor of this, just to see the heads on pikes.
 
2014-04-16 02:49:15 PM  

Best Princess Celestia: "If you work well, you will be treated well."

What wrong with Rura Penthe laws?


Arbeit macht frei?
 
2014-04-16 02:50:14 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".
 
2014-04-16 02:52:51 PM  
Of course this is his point o view.  Until someone comes along and offers to do his job for $1 a week.  Seriously, there are probably thousands willing to do his job for much less and based on cost/benefit analysis, at some point he will be kicked to the curb.
 
2014-04-16 02:53:03 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one ...

Damn you, Fark, for cutting off the one bit I actually wanted to quote.

Don'tcha just love how (according to people like the guy you linked to) American Exceptionalism will let us accomplish anything we put our minds to, except when it comes to pulling off something that other countries have been doing for years, or even decades?

"We're Number One! We're smarter than everyone else! We're better than everyone else! We're special!"
"So why can't we do like other countries?"
"Um... we're too special."
 
2014-04-16 02:53:15 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]


Okay, but I also get to do what my great grand father did. Use barb wire whips on company executives until they paid reasonable wages. No, I'm not kidding great grand-dad was a coal miner and union organizer.
 
2014-04-16 02:54:52 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".


Yeah, too bad that the fastest the American economy has ever grown coincided with the lowest levels of inequality we ever had.
 
2014-04-16 02:55:15 PM  

Alphax: I guess numbnuts here doesn't realize that if you pay workers next to nothing, all your stores and businesses will be empty.  They'll have no money to spend on you.


They haven't gotten to that yet. Remember these are the types of people who can't think two steps ahead. They only think in the right now, and if right now they see somebody who they think shouldn't be able to own the same stuff as they own, they need to make it so that now they can't, even if that means setting up a condition that will eventually mean disaster for themselves also.
 
2014-04-16 02:56:06 PM  
"Oh we'll march day and night
By the big cooling tower.
They have the plant
But we have the power."
 
2014-04-16 02:56:29 PM  
What makes  Eric Bolling think that he won't be one of those people working for a dollar a week?
 
2014-04-16 02:57:34 PM  
We could be just like China. Why are you commie liberals holding us back?
 
2014-04-16 02:58:30 PM  

Serious Black: El Pachuco: The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.   Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.

I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straigh ...


Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.
 
2014-04-16 02:58:54 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: This just in: Fox "News" hosts are drooling fascist retards


And also hypocrites because you know they don't really work all that hard.


Also, re: "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?"

They think no one should be able to do whatever they want when they're not at work? Who thinks like that?

Wow. Just... wow.
 
2014-04-16 02:59:41 PM  

Great_Milenko: What makes  Eric Bolling think that he won't be one of those people working for a dollar a week?


Because reasons.

People who make the arguments for paying people peanuts always think that their job is too important to be relegated to the work for peanuts pile.
 
2014-04-16 03:04:22 PM  

somedude210: You take away the rights of the workers and they will rise up against you. You're trying so very very hard to be the frontline in the war on communism that you've been fighting since the 1900s. You take away those rights for workers, claim it as a win for capitalism and watch how quickly those workers rise up against you. You'll win the goddamn battle but you'll lose the war.


I played a gig for a union gathering once, and they had a slideshow called "Before there were unions".  It discussed working conditions before unions existed.

I won't deny that it was a gripping presentation.

/not a union member
 
2014-04-16 03:09:00 PM  

mcreadyblue: Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


Remove the FICA cap and cap payouts at median income and the "problem" is solved for the next century.
 
2014-04-16 03:09:14 PM  

Rhaab: Don'tcha just love how (according to people like the guy you linked to) American Exceptionalism will let us accomplish anything we put our minds to, except when it comes to pulling off something that other countries have been doing for years, or even decades?

"We're Number One! We're smarter than everyone else! We're better than everyone else! We're special!"
"So why can't we do like other countries?"
"Um... we're too special."


Jster422: Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.


I wouldn't disagree with either of these points.
 
2014-04-16 03:09:59 PM  

Rixel: Magorn: real_headhoncho: Dinki: Bolling has one son. I wonder if he would be willing to have his kid work for $1.00 an hour.

Oh and he's also Roman Catholic. Me thinks the Pope would slap this guy upside the head if they ever met.

I would pay all of my meager money to see that happen.

You don't wanna get Popeslapped especially not by this guy Benedict keeps his popehand STRONG.

/is Pope Benedict gonna have to choke a bishop?

Pope who?


yEah talk about a brain fart My mind SAID  Francis but my Hands typed the last schmuck...
 
2014-04-16 03:11:35 PM  

mcreadyblue: SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.


Part of the problem with raising the eligibility age for SS and Medicare is that life expectancy is correlated to income:

www.motherjones.com

In short, doing this will rampantly fark the poor up the ass.
 
2014-04-16 03:13:59 PM  

quizzical: "Oh we'll march day and night
By the big cooling tower.
They have the plant
But we have the power."


Now do Classical Gas
 
2014-04-16 03:15:02 PM  

Serious Black: Rhaab: Don'tcha just love how (according to people like the guy you linked to) American Exceptionalism will let us accomplish anything we put our minds to, except when it comes to pulling off something that other countries have been doing for years, or even decades?

"We're Number One! We're smarter than everyone else! We're better than everyone else! We're special!"
"So why can't we do like other countries?"
"Um... we're too special."

Jster422: Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.

I wouldn't disagree with either of these points.


Gotcha, I think I misinterpreted your statement as 'why we can't', as opposed to 'why we won't'.  You get the same counterarguments when looking at education reform.  Nordic schools (or atleast Finnish schools, iirc) have a very different approach, and see excellent results - but we seeming can't possibly move to that model in place of our more expensive, less effective one.

Because competition and evaluation uber alles.
 
2014-04-16 03:15:19 PM  

SquiggsIN: El Pachuco: * because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.

Of course it is.  We've been electing Mitt Romney's for centuries and that's gone a long way toward ensuring that Mitt Romney's benefit from the system and keep getting elected to ensure that next generation's Mitt Romney's have a hand up.

Incumbency needs to die.  Legalized bribery needs to die.  Term limits need mandated or it continues in any and all political parties that exist or will exist.


Term limits would do absolutely nothing to fix the problems you name.
 
2014-04-16 03:17:20 PM  
China has minimum wage laws.

Most factory wages are higher than the minimum.
 
2014-04-16 03:17:37 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.
 
2014-04-16 03:18:31 PM  
Well no 1 curr, but did anybody actually read the damn article to find out who uttered the quote in the headline?

Fox News host Eric Bolling and most of his colleagues on The Five dismissed seemingly the whole idea of a balance between life and work on Tuesday, with Bolling suggesting that the U.S. look to China, and not Europe, for inspiration.

"Some of the economies that are starting to kick our butt, those people work hard," Bolling said. "There aren't labor laws, there aren't minimum wages, they're working harder than we are."

"That's what we should have - no labor law and no minimum wage," co-host Bob Beckel countered. "They work for a dollar a week."


Beckel is the closest thing to a token liberal you're going to see as a regular on a Fox News show, and he was engaging in hyperbole to demonstrate the foolishness of his colleague's proposal.

Not that it matters, since in context the other hosts seemed to be advocating that scenario anyway.

Because America is the Land of the Free.  And what makes you free?  Work.
 
2014-04-16 03:19:47 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.


The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.
 
2014-04-16 03:20:20 PM  
I'm going to drop this right here..

The perfect slave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIB8jDS76f0
 
2014-04-16 03:20:42 PM  
Fine.  We'll start with you FOX news assholes.  The first one to biatch about it gets a bullet in the head.  So does the last one.
 
2014-04-16 03:21:37 PM  
This always bugs me to hear about how China has "No Labor Laws."  They actually have a relatively detailed set of laws in regards to safety, wage, and social welfare.  The problem is that they have little to no enforcement in practice, no education on the presence of those laws, and I don't think they even have communication requirements on these laws (think the state/fed postings in the breakroom at your work.  China doesn't do that)  

If we followed Chinese regulations with US levels of enforcement, big business would be screaming uncle when they had to pitch in for higher number of holidays with mandatory triple pay for work on the holiday, extended social welfare contributions, housing for employees (ok, its shiatty housing in china...)  and mandatory employment contracts....
 
2014-04-16 03:24:08 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.


Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.
 
2014-04-16 03:24:38 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".

Yeah, too bad that the fastest the American economy has ever grown coincided with the lowest levels of inequality we ever had.


Agreed. Hence the bit at the end where the author claims that in inability of American capitalism to deliver on its promises will be the start of a leftward social/progressive swing in the U.S.
 
2014-04-16 03:26:46 PM  
For their raving about a "War on Christmas", the far right is more like Scrooge from the first half of "A Christmas Carol" than they think.

"At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge, ... it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."
"Are there no prisons?"
"Plenty of prisons..."
"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"
"Both very busy, sir..."
"Those who are badly off must go there."
"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

If Scrooge said the final line at CPAC, he'd get a standing ovation.
 
2014-04-16 03:27:04 PM  

Will-Mun: Boardering on slave labour, and pushing the workforce to the point of suicide to such a degree, they need to have safety nets on the side of the building?


OK.  Guys?  Seriously.

They weren't killing themselves because of "slave labor."

They were killing themselves because they were under tremendous social and familial pressure, likely coupled with depression.   Pretty much the same reason anyone kills themselves.

I know from experience, the average factory worker, starting out, makes around 1500-3000 RMB per month.  The average waitress, starting out, makes about 1500-3000 RMB per month. The average office worker, starting out make about 1500-3000 RMB per month.

So, if you work in a factory, and your mom gets cancer, and you can't make enough to pay for the medical bills?  Or, you want to get married, but you can't afford a house (it's typical for men to have to buy them before marriage)?  Or, a hundred other socioeconomic hardships?

Do you blame the factory?
 
2014-04-16 03:27:24 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.


My suspicion is that he means a number of white people in America don't want to help those heathen ni-BONGs and those greasy beaners.
 
2014-04-16 03:29:24 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.


That's my point. No one ever explains why the Swedish model won't work when your population includes brown people. Especially in the US, where new immigrants tend to assimilate faster than immigrants to Europe. Again, sounds like BS or veiled racism.
 
2014-04-16 03:30:16 PM  
Why pay them at all, just institute labor camps like they have in North Korea?
 
2014-04-16 03:31:15 PM  

Chigau: This always bugs me to hear about how China has "No Labor Laws."  They actually have a relatively detailed set of laws in regards to safety, wage, and social welfare.  The problem is that they have little to no enforcement in practice, no education on the presence of those laws, and I don't think they even have communication requirements on these laws (think the state/fed postings in the breakroom at your work.  China doesn't do that)  

If we followed Chinese regulations with US levels of enforcement, big business would be screaming uncle when they had to pitch in for higher number of holidays with mandatory triple pay for work on the holiday, extended social welfare contributions, housing for employees (ok, its shiatty housing in china...)  and mandatory employment contracts....


They also have a constitution.

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.

Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.


It's ADORABLE!
 
2014-04-16 03:31:52 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Dr Dreidel: Don't forget about a "non-homogenous population".

I have no idea why or how the homogeneity of a population is correlated with its health or ability to centrally administer (not centrally "plan" - think of it as the difference between writing laws and writing rules) assistance programs, but since the cite comes from Douthat, I have my suspicions about what he means when he says a "homogenous population" will have an easier time of it.

That's my point. No one ever explains why the Swedish model won't work when your population includes brown people. Especially in the US, where new immigrants tend to assimilate faster than immigrants to Europe. Again, sounds like BS or veiled racism.


Sometimes, I wish people who held discriminatory attitudes towards "the other" would be more forthright with their words instead of keeping things private. At least then we would have ironclad evidence of their prejudice.
 
2014-04-16 03:32:38 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism


Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.
 
2014-04-16 03:33:41 PM  

Fart_Machine: Does he also advocate for the suicide nets?

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x462]


Don't be silly.  That would contradict their retirement plan.
 
2014-04-16 03:36:59 PM  
It sure is something to see the "Rah, Rah! USA, USA!" uber-patriot crowd from the last decade now idolizing such things as Putin and the Chinese labor model.  I don't even...
 
2014-04-16 03:37:15 PM  

sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.


Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?
 
2014-04-16 03:37:27 PM  

sendtodave: Chigau: This always bugs me to hear about how China has "No Labor Laws."  They actually have a relatively detailed set of laws in regards to safety, wage, and social welfare.  The problem is that they have little to no enforcement in practice, no education on the presence of those laws, and I don't think they even have communication requirements on these laws (think the state/fed postings in the breakroom at your work.  China doesn't do that)  

If we followed Chinese regulations with US levels of enforcement, big business would be screaming uncle when they had to pitch in for higher number of holidays with mandatory triple pay for work on the holiday, extended social welfare contributions, housing for employees (ok, its shiatty housing in china...)  and mandatory employment contracts....

They also have a constitution.

http://english.people.com.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.

Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.

It ...


Scalia testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee a couple of years ago where he talked about the Soviet Union's constitution and told the assembly "The bill of rights of the former evil empire, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was much better than ours. I mean it literally. It was much better. We guarantee freedom of speech and of the press, big deal! The guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press of street demonstrations and anyone who is caught trying to suppress criticism of the government will be called to account." Of course he wouldn't want to live in the USSR, just like most Americans wouldn't want to live there either. That's because what matters is whether people support human rights or not. That's why a country like New Zealand can be rated better than America on pretty much every human rights index produced despite them not having a written Constitution.
 
2014-04-16 03:37:43 PM  
t3.gstatic.com
The good old days
 
2014-04-16 03:41:27 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".

Yeah, too bad that the fastest the American economy has ever grown coincided with the lowest levels of inequality we ever had.


Your data has been insufficiently Reinharted and/or Rogoffed I see.
 
2014-04-16 03:41:40 PM  

edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.


The problem with your statement is that you have mistakenly identified the village idiots that constitute "The Five" as "news people". It's an easy enough mistake to make given the entire Fox Network has disguised itself as a news organization. The Five are no more "news people" than the children who come to your doorstep on Halloween are Transformers or members of S.H.I.E.L.D..  Do not be deceived.
And getting a History degree is, in fact, getting a real education. It may surprise you to learn that history is important.
 
2014-04-16 03:42:02 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]


Talk to any union shill and he'll tell you nothing has changed since then.
 
2014-04-16 03:42:09 PM  

FlashHarry: what would saint reagan say if he were alive?


BRAINS!
Want some nice jelly beans?
care for a dance baroness?

My son is a Homo?!
GRRR! BRAAAAIIIINS!!!
 
2014-04-16 03:44:12 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?


Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?
 
2014-04-16 03:46:09 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?


Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?
 
2014-04-16 03:46:16 PM  

red5ish: edmo: The problem with news people is they have no real education. Say, a History degree. But they're darned proud to demonstrate that shortcoming as often as possible.

The problem with your statement is that you have mistakenly identified the village idiots that constitute "The Five" as "news people". It's an easy enough mistake to make given the entire Fox Network has disguised itself as a news organization. The Five are no more "news people" than the children who come to your doorstep on Halloween are Transformers or members of S.H.I.E.L.D..  Do not be deceived.
And getting a History degree is, in fact, getting a real education. It may surprise you to learn that history is important.


People that study history never achieve anything obviously.

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-16 03:46:20 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?



She was not alone. In Maria's high-rise suburb of Almgården an astonishing one in three voted for Sweden Democrats, a party dubbed "racist and neo-Nazi" and led by Jimmie Åkesson, the new young darling of the European far right.
The reason is plain. Maria pointed across the dual carriageway to the neighbouring housing scheme of Rosengård, known locally as "the ghetto".
It is home to almost 20,000 immigrants, overwhelmingly Muslim, almost half of them jobless.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far- ri ght-asylum
 
2014-04-16 03:46:53 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?


Not really, no. You might be thinking a direct democracy vs a republican one?
 
2014-04-16 03:48:10 PM  
Slavery could be legal again and companies would still send jobs to China due to lax environmental regulations.

No one wins in a race to the bottom.
 
2014-04-16 03:48:26 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?


I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:07 PM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:36 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not really, no. You might be thinking a direct democracy vs a republican one?


Oh, well then, sure, we could support anyone and everyone, no matter who liked it or not.  But that doesn't usually happen.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:50 PM  

sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.


This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.
 
2014-04-16 03:49:58 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?


She was not alone. In Maria's high-rise suburb of Almgården an astonishing one in three voted for Sweden Democrats, a party dubbed "racist and neo-Nazi" and led by Jimmie Åkesson, the new young darling of the European far right.
The reason is plain. Maria pointed across the dual carriageway to the neighbouring housing scheme of Rosengård, known locally as "the ghetto".
It is home to almost 20,000 immigrants, overwhelmingly Muslim, almost half of them jobless.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far- ri ght-asylum


You are still so far away from a point you need radar to see it.
 
2014-04-16 03:50:43 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?


She was not alone. In Maria's high-rise suburb of Almgården an astonishing one in three voted for Sweden Democrats, a party dubbed "racist and neo-Nazi" and led by Jimmie Åkesson, the new young darling of the European far right.
The reason is plain. Maria pointed across the dual carriageway to the neighbouring housing scheme of Rosengård, known locally as "the ghetto".
It is home to almost 20,000 immigrants, overwhelmingly Muslim, almost half of them jobless.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/24/sweden-immigration-far- ri ght-asylum


Are you trying to say that racism and xenophobia can exist in social democracies? Of course it can, that still doesn't make a lick of difference as far as the mechanics of welfare administration. A divided society is less likely to accept the idea of universal benefits, but that's a different discussion.
 
2014-04-16 03:50:47 PM  

sendtodave: cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not really, no. You might be thinking a direct democracy vs a republican one?

Oh, well then, sure, we could support anyone and everyone, no matter who liked it or not.  But that doesn't usually happen.


Why not?
 
2014-04-16 03:50:54 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.


You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."
 
2014-04-16 03:51:21 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?

I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.


Most of us DO see brown people as 'they same as they are' because they are, you know, people.

You it appears do not.
 
2014-04-16 03:52:00 PM  

sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


How do you explain social democracies like Canada and the UK then?
 
2014-04-16 03:52:19 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.


Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.
 
2014-04-16 03:53:27 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?

I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.

Most of us DO see brown people as 'they same as they are' because they are, you know, people.

You it appears do not.


I'm a racist because I acknowledge that racism exists.

Yes, of course.

If you went to any of the southern states, even now, would you still be part of "most of us?"
 
2014-04-16 03:53:50 PM  

sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


Reminds me of what Orson Scott Card said happened to Earth after Ender destroyed the Formic homeworld: the planet went from united against the alien scourge to seeing each other as the aliens.
 
2014-04-16 03:53:54 PM  

sendtodave: Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


Wait, are you saying the model country doesn't have universal healthcare because racism?

Are you f*cking serious?
 
2014-04-16 03:53:58 PM  

sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.
 
2014-04-16 03:54:46 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?

Not in any practical sense. No more than you have a say in how Medicare is administered. Are you approaching a point soon?

I'm just answering your questions.  How can the Northern European system fail to work?  People don't want equality when they don't see the other people as the same as they are.  Simple enough.

Most of us DO see brown people as 'they same as they are' because they are, you know, people.

You it appears do not.

I'm a racist because I acknowledge that racism exists.

Yes, of course.

If you went to any of the southern states, even now, would you still be part of "most of us?"


No, you're a racist because you believe that racism will somehow impair universal rights, without any shred of evidence, proof, or data.
 
2014-04-16 03:55:09 PM  
Tantaros then criticized a new French labor agreement allowing for "autonomous employees" in the tech and consulting fields to disconnect from work communications after working 13-hour days. "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?" she asked, not mentioning that that hour is not specified anywhere in the agreement.

Is it really so controversial to give people the right to not be worked to death, for fear of being fired?

You need about eight hours for sleep. After thirteen working and eight sleeping, you've got three hours left in the day.
That's barely enough time to eat, commute and use the farking bathroom as much as life demands  - to say nothing for doing chores or running errands to keep your life in order between weekends.
That's just what the farking law provides - enough time to not instantly burn out or die. And these assholes have a problem with this?
 
2014-04-16 03:55:26 PM  

Will-Mun: This guy really burns my ass for some reason. "Why are we looking to Europe, why not China!"


More to the point: Americans can't survive on the wages in China. I don't mean we couldn't afford luxuries, like refrigerators, we couldn't afford enough food to survive.

These people are idiots.
 
2014-04-16 03:55:58 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.


That's the problem word right there. Just because we think something should be done doesn't mean it will be done. And a lot of people have different opinions on what should be done. I suspect there is a not-so-insignificant number of people in America that think we should bring back slavery to civilize the heathen.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:01 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

How do you explain social democracies like Canada and the UK then?


Explain what?  How sameness/oherness might get in the way of things?

French Canadians don't exactly see themselves the same as other Canadians, and vice versa.

Most Brits I've met don't have a high opinion of Bangladeshi immigrants, etc.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:16 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.

Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


So you're saying that Swedes can manage their system even with clear issues with racism? Do you just think America is so much more racist than Sweden that it can't work here? Or that the system the Swedes use is not the Swedish system?

It's really a terrible objection that falls apart under even the most minor amount of scrutiny.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:43 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: veiled racism

Yes.  You got it.  That's exactly why it won't work.

Explain how or shove off. It makes no sense just to say it won't work "because racists". Do you have any kind of logical reasoning behind how that affects welfare administration?

Do the people ... the racist, racist people.. get a say in how it is administered?  That is, are we talking a democratic country here?


Wait, are you saying the people in Sweden or other n Europe countries are not racist?

EVERY group of people have some form of racism/bigotry...even if they look all the same to you.

Some people are more self aware than others but if you have a chance prod a foreign friend. You may be shocked to hear about the hill people, or the Catholics or the gypsies....etc

The point is...YOU see them as homogeneous, THEY have split themselves up in ways you will never know.
 
2014-04-16 03:57:47 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.

That's the problem word right there. Just because we think something should be done doesn't mean it will be done. And a lot of people have different opinions on what should be done. I suspect there is a not-so-insignificant number of people in America that think we should bring back slavery to civilize the heathen.


Sure, but obviously that number wasn't large enough to prevent the civil rights act. Just because some number of people oppose something doesn't mean it can't or won't be done. Look at Obamacare. A lot of people oppose that to this day and it is still law.
 
2014-04-16 03:58:47 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important


That's a fair point.  We should actually be better at it than, say, Northern Europe, or Asia, since we're already less homogeneous.
 
2014-04-16 03:58:57 PM  

Jster422: Okay, so we can't necessarily just copy and paste overnight, sure - but 'There's more of us' and 'We have minorities' aren't terribly clear arguments against an organizational system that has been proven to work.


To jump in on this... Larger isn't a bug, it's a feature.  Larger means economies of scale.  Look at Canada- it shares a great deal in common with northern european economies, and has the same sort of diversity that the US does.  Imagine, delivering state services to a population and economy the size of California over a geographic area larger than the entire US, to a population equally diverse in its makeup.  Please don't tell me that somehow 'too big' is a problem.

The reason that it won't work in the US is that ingrained American culture reveres competition and is suspicious of co-operation, full stop.While northern european economies are a pragmatic blend of both, the US isn't governed from a pragmatic center.  It's governed as a tug-of-war between opposite ends of the spectrum, resulting in policies that are often the worst of both worlds, a cadillac program on a kia budget.  It's baked into your national DNA.
 
2014-04-16 03:59:27 PM  

sendtodave: French Canadians don't exactly see themselves the same as other Canadians, and vice versa.

Most Brits I've met don't have a high opinion of Bangladeshi immigrants, etc.


And yet they manage to continue to have a universal healthcare system, do they not? Or am I missing something here?
 
2014-04-16 04:00:31 PM  
Yes, let's race to the bottom and make life miserable for nearly everyone. Great plan!!

Remember, being incredibly wealthy but surrounded by squalor isn't really being wealthy. That's like living in a nice penthouse above a burned out rat infested shiathole.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:36 PM  

HawgWild: So ... they are for communism and socialism?

So confused ...


I'd like to travel back in time to Reagan's first inauguration and announce that 34 years later conservatives will say that the countries we should emulate are Russia and China, and that their favorite world leader will be the ex-KGB dictator of Russia.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:50 PM  
This guy really burns my ass for some reason. "Why are we looking to Europe, why not China!"

Probably because he's not truly say the "we" should be more like China.   He's saying that anyone who makes less than him should be more like Chinese workers.   If he was serious, he'd re-negotiate his contract for a $1 and start doing real work, not just flapping his mouth for a living.   He knows that they won't actually do away with minimum wage.   That would be political suicide for either party.   So it's just cheap, easy theorizing that paints the other side as weak with nothing actually being accomplished.  Rather than contributing something constructive to the dialogue, he's just making noise.

What the hell would eliminating the minimum wage do to the world economy?   It's the average working Americans that buy cheap Chinese made crap.   If we can't afford to buy that stuff, the Chinese economy will grind to a halt taking WalMart and a ton of other retail stores with it, which will mean even fewer jobs, and so on.   It's a dumb-ass idea.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:56 PM  

Aldon: The point is...YOU see them as homogeneous, THEY have split themselves up in ways you will never know.


Sure.

AN OVERVIEW OF SOCIAL DOMINANCE THEORY
The trimorphic structure of group-based social hierarchy

Social dominance theory argues that societies producing stable economic surplus contain three qualitatively distinct systems of group-based hierarchy: (1) an age system, in which adults have disproportionate social power over children; (2) a gender system, in which men have disproportionate social, political, and military power compared to women; and (3) an arbitrary-set system, in which groups constructed on ''arbitrary'' bases, that is, on bases not linked to the human life-cycle, have differential access to things of positive and negative social value. Arbitrary-set groups may be defined by social distinctions meaningfully related to power, such as (in various contexts) nationality, ''race'', ethnicity, class, estate, descent, religion, or clan. Parallel trimorphic structures (based on age, sex, and coalitions) are found in chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and baboons (Kawanaka, 1982, 1989; Nadler, 1988; Rowell, 1974; Strier, 1994). Such a social organisation may help primate societies transmit skills, knowledge, and ideas, while also transmitting roles and power.


There are a million arbitrary in-groups and out-groups.  Race is just one.  Just it's a big one.
 
2014-04-16 04:00:56 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]


We can't. They already sent those jobs to China.
 
2014-04-16 04:01:18 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.

Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


How do you explain the UK then where there are huge immigrant populations going back anywhere between 1,000 years (Normans) and a couple of years (poland and romania)
 
2014-04-16 04:02:26 PM  
This isn't news - it's comic opera.
 
2014-04-16 04:02:39 PM  

I_Am_Weasel: Oh yes.  Take labor practice concept from China.  That's a great idea.  It'll be a boon to the Suicide Prevention Netting Company of Toledo, Ohio.


No one will ever accuse Eric of being a rational human being, he qualifies for neither.


Why not?  Their ideal leader is Tits Putin
 
2014-04-16 04:03:09 PM  
What could be done to address this? It will probably take generations.

* a tax on wealth

* eisenhower era tax rates

* estate taxes progressive enough to ensure no one is born a billionaire in a dynastic oligarchical family

* educating kids to think

* buy from folks as local as possible

What else? Roll over and take it?
 
2014-04-16 04:03:09 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: French Canadians don't exactly see themselves the same as other Canadians, and vice versa.

Most Brits I've met don't have a high opinion of Bangladeshi immigrants, etc.

And yet they manage to continue to have a universal healthcare system, do they not? Or am I missing something here?


Are we talking specifically about that?

Oh, sure, we can have that.  As soon as we agree to have it, of course.  That'd be mandated and enforced by authority.

I though we were more talking about the reasons as to why Sweden already has these systems.  They already agreed to have them, because they already said "Everyone is like me, and everyone should have these things."
 
2014-04-16 04:04:10 PM  

sendtodave: Are we talking specifically about that?

Oh, sure, we can have that.  As soon as we agree to have it, of course.  That'd be mandated and enforced by authority.


Just like anything else.
 
2014-04-16 04:05:11 PM  

Tigger: How do you explain the UK then where there are huge immigrant populations going back anywhere between 1,000 years (Normans) and a couple of years (poland and romania)


Explain what?
 
2014-04-16 04:06:18 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: Are we talking specifically about that?

Oh, sure, we can have that.  As soon as we agree to have it, of course.  That'd be mandated and enforced by authority.

Just like anything else.


Pretty much.  Not sure why everyone jumped in my shiat.

The hard part is getting everyone to agree to it.
 
2014-04-16 04:06:53 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.

The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

This is one of my all time favorite bits of right wing anti-american farkwittage. "It's just too hard for us to do here". farking man up and say "I just don't want that". Don't pretend it can't happen for bullshiat reasons you' just invented. farking OWN YOUR POSITIONS.

Who, me?  I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


Wat

A barrier?  Maybe.  Possibly.  You could, in theory, present an argument, though I'd be surprised if it ended up holding any water.

But...this... this is the reason we can't even farking talk about it, let alone study or implement it? This is the reason "socialism" is all-but a dirty word in this country?  Seriously?  Give us a goddamn break and GFY.

/i need a nap
 
2014-04-16 04:07:47 PM  

sendtodave: Aldon: The point is...YOU see them as homogeneous, THEY have split themselves up in ways you will never know.

Sure.

AN OVERVIEW OF SOCIAL DOMINANCE THEORY
The trimorphic structure of group-based social hierarchy

Social dominance theory argues that societies producing stable economic surplus contain three qualitatively distinct systems of group-based hierarchy: (1) an age system, in which adults have disproportionate social power over children; (2) a gender system, in which men have disproportionate social, political, and military power compared to women; and (3) an arbitrary-set system, in which groups constructed on ''arbitrary'' bases, that is, on bases not linked to the human life-cycle, have differential access to things of positive and negative social value. Arbitrary-set groups may be defined by social distinctions meaningfully related to power, such as (in various contexts) nationality, ''race'', ethnicity, class, estate, descent, religion, or clan. Parallel trimorphic structures (based on age, sex, and coalitions) are found in chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and baboons (Kawanaka, 1982, 1989; Nadler, 1988; Rowell, 1974; Strier, 1994). Such a social organisation may help primate societies transmit skills, knowledge, and ideas, while also transmitting roles and power.

There are a million arbitrary in-groups and out-groups.  Race is just one.  Just it's a big one.


That's why the idea that we are not "homogeneous" therefore we cannot do as well at X is BS.

Somehow we have done much better at many things without being as "homogeneous" as European countries.

...and some countries in Africa and Asia are probably more "homogeneous" than European countries and have achieved much less.
 
2014-04-16 04:08:53 PM  

sendtodave: The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.


It's been a long time since everyone was Scandinavian. We're still doing fine.
 
2014-04-16 04:08:58 PM  

sendtodave: You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."


I grew up in southern California and never had any problems with my Hispanic neighbors. I played with their kids, dated their daughters, and worked with their sons. The only thing that stands out in my memory where we diverged was that I could never get used to menudo which they teased me about relentlessly.

You know where I did have a problem with me neighbors? The midwest. I wasn't local. I was an outsider. Sure I was as pale as the rest of them but I wasn't from around those parts. It wasn't enough that I was white and had a good job and a family, I grew up somewhere else and so I was an outsider. Hell, even the South is more welcoming to a southern California transplant. What's funny here in the South is that the Hispanic transplants are surprised as hell to hear me address their kids as mijo and mija.
 
2014-04-16 04:09:24 PM  
Conservatives want the US to be like China, what a surprise.
 
2014-04-16 04:10:40 PM  

Will-Mun: Also FTA: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. "But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."

Did.. Did a small nugget of truth, however intentional, slip out of a Fox News Host's mouth?


Perrino was part of the George W. Bush team who were trying to destroy social security.  She's still mad that they didn't succeed.
 
2014-04-16 04:11:33 PM  

Dansker: sendtodave: The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

It's been a long time since everyone was Scandinavian. We're still doing fine.


How are these right wing parties gaining ground lately?
 
2014-04-16 04:11:58 PM  

Aldon: sendtodave: Aldon: The point is...YOU see them as homogeneous, THEY have split themselves up in ways you will never know.

Sure.

AN OVERVIEW OF SOCIAL DOMINANCE THEORY
The trimorphic structure of group-based social hierarchy

Social dominance theory argues that societies producing stable economic surplus contain three qualitatively distinct systems of group-based hierarchy: (1) an age system, in which adults have disproportionate social power over children; (2) a gender system, in which men have disproportionate social, political, and military power compared to women; and (3) an arbitrary-set system, in which groups constructed on ''arbitrary'' bases, that is, on bases not linked to the human life-cycle, have differential access to things of positive and negative social value. Arbitrary-set groups may be defined by social distinctions meaningfully related to power, such as (in various contexts) nationality, ''race'', ethnicity, class, estate, descent, religion, or clan. Parallel trimorphic structures (based on age, sex, and coalitions) are found in chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, and baboons (Kawanaka, 1982, 1989; Nadler, 1988; Rowell, 1974; Strier, 1994). Such a social organisation may help primate societies transmit skills, knowledge, and ideas, while also transmitting roles and power.

There are a million arbitrary in-groups and out-groups.  Race is just one.  Just it's a big one.

That's why the idea that we are not "homogeneous" therefore we cannot do as well at X is BS.

Somehow we have done much better at many things without being as "homogeneous" as European countries.

...and some countries in Africa and Asia are probably more "homogeneous" than European countries and have achieved much less.


It's almost as if it has no categorical effect whatsoever, outside the minds of people who assume everyone classifies people like they do.
 
2014-04-16 04:13:55 PM  

GoldSpider: sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]

Talk to any union shill and he'll tell you nothing has changed since then.


Oh, bullshiat...

Any "Union Shill" is going to be talking about the changes in the country since those days and how the unions were instrumental in ushering in those changes.

They might complain that the efforts from certain quarters in this country are trying to bring back those days (and they may have a point in some instances), however.
 
2014-04-16 04:14:16 PM  

ongbok: What always gets me about these people when they say these things is that they don't seem to realize that they are working for a paycheck also. What is to stop their employer from deciding that they only need to be paid peanuts also? They for some reason think that they are special and don't realize if you can make one person work for peanuts, the same can be done with their job.


As long as they made 10 peanuts to your one, they'd be happy.
 
2014-04-16 04:14:23 PM  

GoodDoctorB: Wat

A barrier?  Maybe.  Possibly.  You could, in theory, present an argument, though I'd be surprised if it ended up holding any water.

But...this... this is the reason we can't even farking talk about it, let alone study or implement it? This is the reason "socialism" is all-but a dirty word in this country?  Seriously?  Give us a goddamn break and GFY.


Maybe I'm too cynical, but I'd say that, yes, that is the reason.  Socialism is seen as giving more handouts to minorities.

Welfare queens and their "entitlements" *spit*
 
2014-04-16 04:15:34 PM  

sdd2000: Yes let's go back to this.

[img.fark.net image 500x358]

and this

[img.fark.net image 250x220]



4 dollars a month? I'm thinking more like this....

static.guim.co.uk

www.neh.gov

And the article mentions social security/medicare? No need to worry about all that.. most of us would be dead within a month if the masses didn't kill each other fist
 
2014-04-16 04:16:58 PM  

sendtodave: cameroncrazy1984: sendtodave: Are we talking specifically about that?

Oh, sure, we can have that.  As soon as we agree to have it, of course.  That'd be mandated and enforced by authority.

Just like anything else.

Pretty much.  Not sure why everyone jumped in my shiat.

The hard part is getting everyone to agree to it.


I only jumped on your assertion that racism was a reason we couldn't implement a social democracy in America. It doesn't stand up to logic, except to say that racists would constitute an opposing force against social progress as seen in the "welfare queen" rhetoric endemic to the Right, because they see people of other races as subhuman.

We've beaten the racists before, and there's no reason we can't again. The argument that Nordic countries have some distinct advantage as far as the administration of a robust social welfare program is so much bullsh*t, and I'm tired of seeing it dredged up.
 
2014-04-16 04:17:56 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: We've beaten the racists before, and there's no reason we can't again.


pbs.twimg.com
 
2014-04-16 04:18:10 PM  

GoodDoctorB: It's almost as if it has no categorical effect whatsoever, outside the minds of people who assume everyone classifies people like they do.


Oh, no, the assumption is just that everyone categorizes in some way or another.

Different places categorize differently.

In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner).  All other races are "foreigner."  Secondarily, urban vs rural.  Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

In Scandinavia, it's also foreigner (Muslim immigrant) versus native, it seems.

Here, too.  And we also have lots of fun race relations.

But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.
 
2014-04-16 04:19:07 PM  
All I'm gathering is that this Fox Correspondent loves chinese communism.
 
2014-04-16 04:20:16 PM  

sendtodave: GoodDoctorB: It's almost as if it has no categorical effect whatsoever, outside the minds of people who assume everyone classifies people like they do.

Oh, no, the assumption is just that everyone categorizes in some way or another.

Different places categorize differently.

In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner).  All other races are "foreigner."  Secondarily, urban vs rural.  Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

In Scandinavia, it's also foreigner (Muslim immigrant) versus native, it seems.

Here, too.  And we also have lots of fun race relations.

But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.


It works wherever it's instituted. The practicality of the system is not tied to the level of its acceptance. Unless you reach a point where the majority wants to scrap it just to spite the "others", it's still working as intended, even if with vocal opposition.
 
2014-04-16 04:20:26 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: The argument that Nordic countries have some distinct advantage as far as the administration of a robust social welfare program is so much bullsh*t, and I'm tired of seeing it dredged up.


I wasn't arguing that they had an advantage.  I was arguing that they are at an advantage, because it's easier for people to see everyone else as like themselves.

Well, it was until those poor brown moochers, who talk funny and don't go to our churches, started flooding in, anyway.
 
2014-04-16 04:20:45 PM  

keylock71: Any "Union Shill" is going to be talking about the changes in the country since those days and how the unions were instrumental in ushering in those changes.


Then why are they always bloviating like we're on the edge of regressing into turn-of-the-century industrial lawlessness?
 
2014-04-16 04:21:50 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: The argument that Nordic countries have some distinct advantage as far as the administration of a robust social welfare program is so much bullsh*t, and I'm tired of seeing it dredged up.

I wasn't arguing that they had an advantage.  I was arguing that they are at an advantage, because it's easier for people to see everyone else as like themselves.

Well, it was until those poor brown moochers, who talk funny and don't go to our churches, started flooding in, anyway.


You mean as far as initial implementation? Once you leap that first hurdle, entitlements are pretty damn hard to kill, racists notwithstanding.
 
2014-04-16 04:22:39 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: It works wherever it's instituted. The practicality of the system is not tied to the level of its acceptance. Unless you reach a point where the majority wants to scrap it just to spite the "others", it's still working as intended, even if with vocal opposition.


But it tends to have failed when it required social control and central management to try and make it work.

BE EQUAL OR FACE HARSH CONSEQUENCES.

You basically have to reprogram people.
 
2014-04-16 04:23:14 PM  

El Pachuco: Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?


Because roving bands of murderers have more in common with each other than the people who suggested they leave Europe in the first place.
 
2014-04-16 04:23:28 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Once you leap that first hurdle, entitlements are pretty damn hard to kill, racists notwithstanding.


Yes, that is true.

That's their advantage, I think.  They were homogeneous when they decided to go with socialism.
 
2014-04-16 04:24:01 PM  
And as the American economy, and world economy collapses, the ones that still have money say "F*CK YOU, I'VE GOT MINE!"
 
2014-04-16 04:24:03 PM  

sendtodave: GoodDoctorB: It's almost as if it has no categorical effect whatsoever, outside the minds of people who assume everyone classifies people like they do.

Oh, no, the assumption is just that everyone categorizes in some way or another.

Different places categorize differently.

In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner).  All other races are "foreigner."  Secondarily, urban vs rural.  Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

In Scandinavia, it's also foreigner (Muslim immigrant) versus native, it seems.

Here, too.  And we also have lots of fun race relations.

But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.


Frankly, even if that's true (citation needed), fark that.  We can, and should, do better.  Period.  It's a piss poor excuse, and you should feel bad.
 
2014-04-16 04:24:06 PM  

GoldSpider: Then why are they always bloviating like we're on the edge of regressing into turn-of-the-century industrial lawlessness?


you're asking how hyperbole is used to push a  narrative in a fox news thread?
 
2014-04-16 04:24:10 PM  

GoldSpider: keylock71: Any "Union Shill" is going to be talking about the changes in the country since those days and how the unions were instrumental in ushering in those changes.

Then why are they always bloviating like we're on the edge of regressing into turn-of-the-century industrial lawlessness?


Because we have corporations beholden to no-one, who are now legally able to all but outright buy Congress, who regularly flaunt financial and environmental laws with near impunity. Also because wealth inequality is pretty much back at Gilded Age levels. How can you not see the parallels?
 
2014-04-16 04:24:58 PM  

Serious Black: Part of the problem with raising the eligibility age for SS and Medicare is that life expectancy is correlated to income


My god!  Are you suggesting people with poor health don't earn as much as healthy people?  The deuce you say!
 
2014-04-16 04:25:48 PM  

coyo: What could be done to address this? It will probably take generations.

* a tax on wealth

* eisenhower era tax rates

* estate taxes progressive enough to ensure no one is born a billionaire in a dynastic oligarchical family

* educating kids to think

* buy from folks as local as possible

What else? Roll over and take it?


Universal education. If you aren't getting a post-secondary education, it shouldn't be because you can't afford it.

Universal healthcare, with special emphasis on mental health.

End the War on Drugs, decriminalizing of many drugs like marijuana. Certain drugs like LSD should require a license to purchase, similar to alcohol. Drugs which are made through intense manufacturing, e.g. cocaine, should stay illegal. All non-violent drug offenders should get rehabilitation.

Overturn Citizens United, limiting the amount of money political campaigns can receive.

Reinforce the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
 
2014-04-16 04:26:43 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: It works wherever it's instituted. The practicality of the system is not tied to the level of its acceptance. Unless you reach a point where the majority wants to scrap it just to spite the "others", it's still working as intended, even if with vocal opposition.

But it tends to have failed when it required social control and central management to try and make it work.

BE EQUAL OR FACE HARSH CONSEQUENCES.

You basically have to reprogram people.


You also don't apparently understand the Northern European model very well.
 
2014-04-16 04:26:52 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: It works wherever it's instituted. The practicality of the system is not tied to the level of its acceptance. Unless you reach a point where the majority wants to scrap it just to spite the "others", it's still working as intended, even if with vocal opposition.

But it tends to have failed when it required social control and central management to try and make it work.

BE EQUAL OR FACE HARSH CONSEQUENCES.

You basically have to reprogram people.


Pretty much exactly what the courts said re: integration. How is that a failure? The system's still in place, and people adapt to new norms over time.
 
2014-04-16 04:28:09 PM  

GoodDoctorB: Frankly, even if that's true (citation needed), fark that.  We can, and should, do better.  Period.  It's a piss poor excuse, and you should feel bad.


You need a citation on a self-evident assertion?

People go along with things when they feel that those things benefit them (their tribe, insiders, in-group, their race, whatthefarkever), and do not benefit those that they are competing against (outsiders).

Americans, on the whole, don't feel invested in socialism.  Because of welfare queens and stuff.
 
2014-04-16 04:28:48 PM  

GoodDoctorB: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: It works wherever it's instituted. The practicality of the system is not tied to the level of its acceptance. Unless you reach a point where the majority wants to scrap it just to spite the "others", it's still working as intended, even if with vocal opposition.

But it tends to have failed when it required social control and central management to try and make it work.

BE EQUAL OR FACE HARSH CONSEQUENCES.

You basically have to reprogram people.

You also don't apparently understand the Northern European model very well.


I was referring more to the Eastern models, there.
 
2014-04-16 04:30:26 PM  
The World Economy is Not Collapsing. The sky is Not falling.
You heard it here first.
Stay Calm
and
Fark On.
 
2014-04-16 04:31:12 PM  

sendtodave: GoodDoctorB: sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: It works wherever it's instituted. The practicality of the system is not tied to the level of its acceptance. Unless you reach a point where the majority wants to scrap it just to spite the "others", it's still working as intended, even if with vocal opposition.

But it tends to have failed when it required social control and central management to try and make it work.

BE EQUAL OR FACE HARSH CONSEQUENCES.

You basically have to reprogram people.

You also don't apparently understand the Northern European model very well.

I was referring more to the Eastern models, there.


So you're criticizing apples by describing oranges.
 
2014-04-16 04:31:15 PM  

sendtodave: The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.


Ahh yes.  I'm sure by *Brown People* you meant Tea Party.
 
2014-04-16 04:35:30 PM  

Headso: you're asking how hyperbole is used to push a  narrative in a fox news thread?


A fair point there, but nobody but pundits would float such ideas and be surprised when they aren't taken seriously.

UrukHaiGuyz: How can you not see the parallels?


Because working conditions now don't bear any resemblance to then, due in no small part because of the efforts of unions.
 
2014-04-16 04:35:42 PM  

GoldSpider: keylock71: Any "Union Shill" is going to be talking about the changes in the country since those days and how the unions were instrumental in ushering in those changes.

Then why are they always bloviating like we're on the edge of regressing into turn-of-the-century industrial lawlessness?


You didn't say "on the edge", my friend... You said they were saying "nothing has changed". Get your bullshiat straight, will you.

Also, who is "they"? Feel free to provide some examples of unions claiming "nothing has changed" since the days of the robber barons, child labor, and unregulated capitalism.

As I said, you might hear some of them claiming certain segments of American society are trying to bring us back to those days.
 
2014-04-16 04:38:15 PM  

sendtodave: UrukHaiGuyz: The argument that Nordic countries have some distinct advantage as far as the administration of a robust social welfare program is so much bullsh*t, and I'm tired of seeing it dredged up.

I wasn't arguing that they had an advantage.  I was arguing that they are at an advantage, because it's easier for people to see everyone else as like themselves.

Well, it was until those poor brown moochers, who talk funny and don't go to our churches, started flooding in, anyway.


The funny thing is that if you are talking about things like Christmas paid holidays and official languages you do have an advantage dealing with those issues if most people think alike.  But things like big social advances or programs, it is better to realize not all people think like you so you can vote for what is better for the whole society.

That's the problem we have in the US illustrated in the healthcare debate.  People who have never been without health insurance or really sick think most people think like them and don't want the government to help with health insurance.  Anyone who thinks differently is a freeloader or lazy.

The point is realizing that people are different, have different experiences and needs helps with getting social programs working.  Thinking everyone is like you hurts the process of implementing social programs.
 
2014-04-16 04:40:46 PM  

sendtodave: Who, me? I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.


This reminds me of the people in 2008 who were going on TV and saying things like "Oh, I would absolutely vote for a black president, I just don't think the rest of the country is ready."
 
2014-04-16 04:41:10 PM  

GoldSpider: UrukHaiGuyz: How can you not see the parallels?


Because working conditions now don't bear any resemblance to then, due in no small part because of the efforts of unions.


And here we are discussing an article where pundits are openly advocating the repeal of those hard-won gains. I'm not saying it's perfectly analogous to the turn of the last century, but the levers of power have shifted dramatically back in favor of capital and against the workers. The backlash should be unsurprising to anyone with a sense of history.
 
2014-04-16 04:42:01 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: Who, me? I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.

This reminds me of the people in 2008 who were going on TV and saying things like "Oh, I would absolutely vote for a black president, I just don't think the rest of the country is ready."


To be fair, based on the reactions, a lot of people weren't.
 
2014-04-16 04:42:06 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: Who, me? I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.

This reminds me of the people in 2008 who were going on TV and saying things like "Oh, I would absolutely vote for a black president, I just don't think the rest of the country is ready."


Good call, was trying to place where I'd heard similar noise.
 
2014-04-16 04:44:02 PM  

sendtodave: In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner). All other races are "foreigner." Secondarily, urban vs rural. Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"


You do realize that China has hundreds of different native ethnicities, right?  And most of them don't care much for the Han.
 
2014-04-16 04:44:07 PM  

GoldSpider: Headso: you're asking how hyperbole is used to push a narrative in a fox news thread?

A fair point there, but nobody but pundits would float such ideas and be surprised when they aren't taken seriously.


 they just need to move the overton window not be taken seriously.
 
2014-04-16 04:46:11 PM  

GoldSpider: Then why are they always bloviating like we're on the edge of regressing into turn-of-the-century industrial lawlessness?


Because we are.  We are still allowing 10,000 people a year to be killed along the hydrocarbon supply chain, after all.
 
2014-04-16 04:47:42 PM  

tricycleracer: Slavery could be legal again and companies would still send jobs to China due to lax environmental regulations.

No one wins in a race to the bottom.


Well, if what matters isn't "how much capital you produce net" but "proportionately, how much richer am I than the poor people" you can "win".
 
2014-04-16 04:51:24 PM  

Graffito: sendtodave: The Scandinavian model works as long as everyone is Scandinavian.  Even there, friction comes up once you introduce a growing minority population of Brown People.

Ahh yes.  I'm sure by *Brown People* you meant Tea Party.


No, immigrant Muslims, obviously.
 
2014-04-16 04:57:34 PM  

Quasar: It's amazing how little it takes for conservatives to fawn over KGB dictators and Chinese business practices.


To be fair, the conservatives back before WWII were also utterly in love with the Facists.  http://suite.io/ivan-castro/5vjk28x
 
2014-04-16 04:59:13 PM  

Aldon: The funny thing is that if you are talking about things like Christmas paid holidays and official languages you do have an advantage dealing with those issues if most people think alike.  But things like big social advances or programs, it is better to realize not all people think like you so you can vote for what is better for the whole society.

That's the problem we have in the US illustrated in the healthcare debate.  People who have never been without health insurance or really sick think most people think like them and don't want the government to help with health insurance.  Anyone who thinks differently is a freeloader or lazy.

The point is realizing that people are different, have different experiences and needs helps with getting social programs working.  Thinking everyone is like you hurts the process of implementing social programs.


Why would you believe that people vote for something that doesn't benefit themselves directly, or people "like them?"  Even your example says otherwise.

"People like me don't need government help regarding health insurance.  People who are not like me are moochers."

Basically, social consciousness, and a willingness to help, extends only to "people who are like me."
 
2014-04-16 05:00:31 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner). All other races are "foreigner." Secondarily, urban vs rural. Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

You do realize that China has hundreds of different native ethnicities, right?  And most of them don't care much for the Han.


Oh, sure.

That's part of the "etc.etc."
 
2014-04-16 05:00:43 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Quasar: It's amazing how little it takes for conservatives to fawn over KGB dictators and Chinese business practices.

To be fair, the conservatives back before WWII were also utterly in love with the Facists.  http://suite.io/ivan-castro/5vjk28x


To be fair, they still are.
 
2014-04-16 05:02:15 PM  

sendtodave: udhq: sendtodave: In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner). All other races are "foreigner." Secondarily, urban vs rural. Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

You do realize that China has hundreds of different native ethnicities, right?  And most of them don't care much for the Han.

Oh, sure.

That's part of the "etc.etc."


Yeah, but to argue that China is in any way "homogenous" just couldn't be further from the truth.
 
2014-04-16 05:03:45 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mcreadyblue: Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.

Remove the FICA cap and cap payouts at median income and the "problem" is solved for the next century.


What about MediCare?
 
2014-04-16 05:03:47 PM  

UncomfortableSilence: udhq: sendtodave: Who, me? I'd love it.

I'm just not going to pretend that racism doesn't exist, and wouldn't be a real barrier, though, when it kinda even is in the model country.

This reminds me of the people in 2008 who were going on TV and saying things like "Oh, I would absolutely vote for a black president, I just don't think the rest of the country is ready."

To be fair, based on the reactions, a lot of people weren't.


Stop letting reality get in the way of a good narrative. Racism no longer exists, and it doesn't factor at all into whether or not policy gets enacted.
 
2014-04-16 05:04:45 PM  

somedude210: mcreadyblue: Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.

that's because that will just push it back out 20 years. Democrats have been pushing for getting rid of the cap of taxable income to more accurately reflect income these days and *poof* we're pretty fiscally secure.

...oh wait, you're just one of those people that don't like those greedy moochers getting hand outs from the government, aren't you?


What about MediCare?
 
2014-04-16 05:05:33 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: udhq: sendtodave: In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner). All other races are "foreigner." Secondarily, urban vs rural. Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

You do realize that China has hundreds of different native ethnicities, right?  And most of them don't care much for the Han.

Oh, sure.

That's part of the "etc.etc."

Yeah, but to argue that China is in any way "homogenous" just couldn't be further from the truth.


Wait, you mean they're not all Chinese like Sulu?

// Uighur, please
 
2014-04-16 05:06:36 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: udhq: sendtodave: In China, for example, it's Chinese person, and non-Chinese person (foreigner). All other races are "foreigner." Secondarily, urban vs rural. Etc etc on down until you just are at "my family, not my family"

You do realize that China has hundreds of different native ethnicities, right?  And most of them don't care much for the Han.

Oh, sure.

That's part of the "etc.etc."

Yeah, but to argue that China is in any way "homogenous" just couldn't be further from the truth.


No, it's still pretty much true, from an outsider's perspective.  Which is a valid perspective.  Outsiders are outsiders, they are the farthest "them" in "us versus them."

Does China have a million other ways to slice "us" versus "them?"  Sure.  Everyone does.  But one of the primary ones is racial.  One of the minority peoples would feel closer kinship with a Han person than with a black person, for example.
 
2014-04-16 05:06:38 PM  

KeatingFive: mcreadyblue: millsapian87: "It would be nice if we had that luxury," co-host Dana Perino answered. %ldquo;But the baby boomers have made sure we are going to be tied to our jobs for the rest of our lives and not benefit from Social Security and Medicare like they did."
That's highly amusing, because surely she knows who REALLY wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare: the GOP.

Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.

Because the age was raised in the 80's. It's time we stop insisting that sacrifices for the good of the whole country should only be made by those who can least afford to sacrifice.
This is biblical, people.


What about MediCare?
 
2014-04-16 05:07:27 PM  
theincidentaleconomist.com
 
2014-04-16 05:11:22 PM  

El Pachuco: The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.  Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.


Racist commentators will say the Nordic system works because it's homogeneous, not because of anything within the structure itself.
 
2014-04-16 05:16:53 PM  

sendtodave: No, it's still pretty much true, from an outsider's perspective. Which is a valid perspective. Outsiders are outsiders, they are the farthest "them" in "us versus them."

Does China have a million other ways to slice "us" versus "them?" Sure. Everyone does. But one of the primary ones is racial. One of the minority peoples would feel closer kinship with a Han person than with a black person, for example.


No.

Most Non-Han don't recognize such a thing as a "Chinese" national identity.  Heck, some of them like the Tibetans don't even recognize themselves as part of China.
 
2014-04-16 05:16:59 PM  
From my experience in China, some rings of who "us" is, in order:

People from the same village/city
People from the same Provence
---
Han Chinese people in China
Minority Chinese people in China
Chinese people around the world
---
foreigners (Chinese that don't speak the language)
foreigners (white)
foreigners (Korean)
foreigners (not white)
foreigners (black)
foreigners (Japanese)

I'm missing a bunch.  But, anyway, if the "chocolate city" of Africans in Guangzhou suddenly became citizens, poof!  Most Chinese would not fight for their equality.
 
2014-04-16 05:17:54 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: No, it's still pretty much true, from an outsider's perspective. Which is a valid perspective. Outsiders are outsiders, they are the farthest "them" in "us versus them."

Does China have a million other ways to slice "us" versus "them?" Sure. Everyone does. But one of the primary ones is racial. One of the minority peoples would feel closer kinship with a Han person than with a black person, for example.

No.

Most Non-Han don't recognize such a thing as a "Chinese" national identity.  Heck, some of them like the Tibetans don't even recognize themselves as part of China.


Tibetans are seen as backwards children that need education and modernization.

Like us and the Indians last century.
 
2014-04-16 05:21:07 PM  
This is not the early 1900s.  Without a minimium wage people would not be making a "dollar a week."  That's BS.   It would be around 3-4 dollars an hour, and competing against other workers,  they could stand to earn more.
 
2014-04-16 05:24:06 PM  

sendtodave: Tibetans are seen as backwards children that need education and modernization.

Like us and the Indians last century.


The Han view every minority in China as backwards and inferior.
 
2014-04-16 05:25:36 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Racist commentators will say the Nordic system works because it's homogeneous, not because of anything within the structure itself.


Besides the fact that Scandinavia is not at all homogeneous, the aforementioned naysayers also go with, "because (Scandinavia is different from the US in some ways) we can't possibly implement the smallest part of the Nordic Model in the US nope nossir noway."

I certainly agree that the US would not end up EXACTLY LIKE SWEDEN, and it never will be, but most Americans would be a lot better off if the US ended up more like Sweden than it is right now.  Let's take a few baby steps and see what happens, hmmm?
 
2014-04-16 05:27:31 PM  

udhq: The Han view every minority in China non-Han on the entire planet as backwards and inferior.

 
2014-04-16 05:30:08 PM  

udhq: sendtodave: Tibetans are seen as backwards children that need education and modernization.

Like us and the Indians last century.

The Han view every minority in China as backwards and inferior.


That's... Kinda my whole point.

Han see non-Han as "them." And make laws and policy based on that.

So do we.

So does everyone.
 
Ant
2014-04-16 05:30:38 PM  
Fox News is actually a front for the Communist Party! They're trying to remove all the safety valves preventing the lower class from revolting because they secretly want a worker's revolution.
 
2014-04-16 05:31:49 PM  

The_Man_On_The_Phone: This is not the early 1900s.  Without a minimium wage people would not be making a "dollar a week."  That's BS.   It would be around 3-4 dollars an hour, and competing against other workers,  they could stand to earn more.


Without a minimum wage, we'd see violently angry riots and the wealthy being shot in the street as scapegoats. There's no going back to the time when workers were absolute peons.
 
2014-04-16 05:32:46 PM  

Mr. Horse: udhq: The Han view every minority in China non-Han on the entire planet as backwards and inferior.


Now now. Be fair. They look up to rich white people. For now.
 
2014-04-16 05:46:11 PM  

The_Man_On_The_Phone: This is not the early 1900s.  Without a minimium wage people would not be making a "dollar a week."  That's BS.   It would be around 3-4 dollars an hour, and competing against other workers,  they could stand to earn more.


It will be a race to the bottom as people get more and more desperate and start to undercut each other because why should I pay you $2 when this guy over here has hungrier kids than you do and will work for $1 because it's better than nothing.
 
2014-04-16 05:49:18 PM  
It sounds like the 'tard from Fox is ready to volunteer to work for $1 for the rest of his life.  Let's see how that works out.

Sounds like the goal of all conservatives is to have the US turn into a third world banana republic.  No surprise given how GW and the republicans did a fine job of that during their six year reign of idiocy.
 
2014-04-16 05:50:16 PM  
sendtodave:
But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.

Sorry was in a meeting but just wanted to point out this is an insanely baseless assertion with absolutely no merit.
 
2014-04-16 05:53:40 PM  

Serious Black: El Pachuco: The Scandinavian countries follow an economic system called the Nordic Model, which is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).  In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world."

The model is also described as a "universalist" welfare state (relative to other developed countries) which is aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, promoting social mobility and ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights, as well as for stabilizing the economy; alongside a commitment to free trade. The Nordic model is distinguished from other types of welfare states by its emphasis on maximizing labor force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, the large magnitude of income redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

The United Nations World Happiness Report 2013 shows that the happiest nations are concentrated in Northern Europe. The Nordics ranked highest on the metrics of real GDP per capita, healthy life expectancy, having someone to count on, perceived freedom to make life choices, generosity and freedom from corruption.

So, a system that aims for maximum labor force participation, with healthcare, higher education and housing for all citizens, that results in the happiest overall population and you can still become a millionaire if that's in your cards.   Why can't* the US do what Sweden does?

* because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.

I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straigh ...


"Homogenous population" - translation, fark the black people and the hispanics...
 
2014-04-16 06:07:23 PM  

The_Man_On_The_Phone: This is not the early 1900s.  Without a minimium wage people would not be making a "dollar a week."  That's BS.   It would be around 3-4 dollars an hour


Oh, well THAT changes everything!
 
2014-04-16 06:07:30 PM  
 
2014-04-16 06:08:25 PM  
You know what?  fark it.

These people should be killed.  They're too stupid to be beaten.
 
2014-04-16 06:10:28 PM  

SquiggsIN: El Pachuco: * because the US is designed more to help Mitt Romney put another million into his tax-free IRA account, and less to ensure that a single parent with two kids has access to affordable housing and healthcare, that's why.

Of course it is.  We've been electing Mitt Romney's for centuries and that's gone a long way toward ensuring that Mitt Romney's benefit from the system and keep getting elected to ensure that next generation's Mitt Romney's have a hand up.

Incumbency needs to die.  Legalized bribery needs to die.  Term limits need mandated or it continues in any and all political parties that exist or will exist.


The only real way to deal with the corruption of incumbency is to also get rid of lobbying altogether.  If you force term limits, but allow lobbying to continue, then people who are elected will only look towards the future and do what the biggest (and well funded) lobbyists want, in the hope that they will be rewarded at the end of their term limit (usually with a high paying position or as a lobbyist themselves).  They won't give a shiat about serving the people that elect them to the office that they would hold.
 
2014-04-16 06:11:08 PM  
Here, here!

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-16 06:24:24 PM  

Serious Black: UrukHaiGuyz: sendtodave: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

So the answer is "we have too many black folks and messicans to do things like Sweden". Nice.

You were expecting something else?

Homogeneity breeds a sense of oneness.  Again, look at China.

"Harmonious society."

That's no solution at all. We shouldn't abandon good ideas before we abandon bigotry. Americans are composed of a mixed up gumbo of people from all over the world, most of whom are able to assimilate within a generation. We should be better able than any Nordic country (where diversity is less common) to realize that surface differences aren't all that important.

That's the problem word right there. Just because we think something should be done doesn't mean it will be done. And a lot of people have different opinions on what should be done. I suspect there is a not-so-insignificant number of people in America that think we should bring back slavery to civilize the heathen.


Seeing how members of a certain political party and political way of thought have continued to argue that 'slavery wasn't so bad' and that if their constituents asked him to, that he would 'vote to reinstate slavery', I think you're right on the money with that thought.
 
2014-04-16 06:32:45 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Quasar: It's amazing how little it takes for conservatives to fawn over KGB dictators and Chinese business practices.

To be fair, the conservatives back before WWII were also utterly in love with the Facists.  http://suite.io/ivan-castro/5vjk28x


Which is one reason why 'The Business Plot' was even thought of back during FDR.  Hell, if it hadn't been for a general with actual love for his country, they might have actually succeeded.
 
2014-04-16 06:33:08 PM  

Tigger: sendtodave:
But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.

Sorry was in a meeting but just wanted to point out this is an insanely baseless assertion with absolutely no merit.


So is socialism, historically.
 
2014-04-16 06:40:03 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.

Sorry was in a meeting but just wanted to point out this is an insanely baseless assertion with absolutely no merit.

So is socialism, historically.


hurrwut


Pretty sure socialism already works in the limited capacity we enjoy now, and would have been a much larger part of our system now if not for successful attempts to quash it. See= Eugene Debs, the Espionage Act, the 20s, the 30s, WWII, etc.
 
2014-04-16 06:41:26 PM  
Subby:
1st, pathetic attempt at trolling.  -324/10.  Read your article before submitting it.  If English eludes you, try translating it into something you understand, like a picture book, because you obviously are lacking in reading comprehension.

The discussion, and it was Bob Beckel who made the quote there, was trying to make a point.  The point was labor laws don't always help, nor do minimum wages.  Nobody is suggesting we go back to the bad old days of early industrialization.  Nobody is suggesting we eliminate the minimum wage.  The host was pointing out that China, despite its lack of labor laws and minimum wage, has tremendous productivity and a good economy.  Discussion: two or more people talking about a topic and making different points about things.  And they didn't even resort to "shut up" or "go kill yourself" like is often seen on Fark, especially from Fark Liberals (tm).

2nd, your attempt to make a commentator represent the views on Fox News is stupid.  I could say the same thing about commentators from MSNBC or CNN, but they don't represent all the views at those stations either.  Otherwise, MSNBC would be in some serious trouble considering who they have as commentators, such as Donald Schulz.

Lastly, for everyone, I would say that productivity is a very complex issue.  Besides just labor laws and minimum wage, which is really meant for teenagers getting summer jobs and the like, not for adults trying to live (I would support a 2 tier minimum wage- 1 for minors, 1 for adults), you have to look at cultural attitudes towards work.  We work hard in America and have a work ethic that goes all the way back to those Puritan bastages who settled here.  If you want to blame anyone for not having 31 paid days off, paid maternity leave, etc., blame the Puritans.  The problem that I see today is that same work ethic is simply non-existent in today's society in America like it used to be.  There is a sense of entitlement that exists on some level in each succeeding generation.  Fewer people are starting new businesses, fewer people are willing to put in an extra hour or two in order to help out the company, etc.  I won't deny that lack of incentive isn't a problem; it is.  Wages aren't going up and companies are still sitting on a huge amount of capital instead of investing it or sharing it with their workers.  If you want your workers to actually work, then you have to compensate them appropriately.  That's why some of the best companies to work for are the best paying companies with the best benefits.

As labor laws, it isn't the labor laws themselves that are the problem.  Its the red tape that is created in ensuring compliance.  That's where the extra costs are.  If you could find a way to reduce the red tape, it would be worth it.  There is also some overlap between government agencies that could, for the price of one, cover both issues.  Workplace safety: does EPA and OSHA both have to have separate forms, or can OSHA handle it.  Same with disposal of wastes, OSHA and EPA both have regulations that cover the same type of waste handling.  Wouldn't it make more sense to consolidate?

And lastly, if all you farkers would stop looking a porn at work, we could get a lot more done around here!
 
2014-04-16 06:41:45 PM  

whidbey: sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.

Sorry was in a meeting but just wanted to point out this is an insanely baseless assertion with absolutely no merit.

So is socialism, historically.

hurrwut


Pretty sure socialism already works in the limited capacity we enjoy now, and would have been a much larger part of our system now if not for successful attempts to quash it. See= Eugene Debs, the Espionage Act, the 20s, the 30s, WWII, etc.


I was just trollin there.
 
2014-04-16 06:42:54 PM  

bobothemagnificent: The point was labor laws don't always help, nor do minimum wages


lolwut

Lastly, for everyone, I would say that productivity is a very complex issue.

No it isn't. It's a very simple issue: pay people living wages.
 
2014-04-16 06:46:15 PM  

AurizenDarkstar: Which is one reason why 'The Business Plot' was even thought of back during FDR. Hell, if it hadn't been for a general with actual love for his country, they might have actually succeeded.


farking hell. I knew about it before, but the stuff under Reaction to Roosevelt sounds like the exact same bullshiat they're spewing today.

"campaign promise that the government would provide jobs for all the unemployed had the perverse effect of creating a new wave of unemployment by businessmen frightened by fears of socialism and reckless government spending."
 
2014-04-16 06:52:46 PM  

bobothemagnificent: Nobody is suggesting we eliminate the minimum wage.


The ranking Republican on the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee has expressed, on the record, his support for eliminating the minimum wage. That ain't nobody. And I would imagine he isn't alone with his opinion.
 
2014-04-16 07:00:16 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: bobothemagnificent: Nobody is suggesting we eliminate the minimum wage.

The ranking Republican on the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee has expressed, on the record, his support for eliminating the minimum wage. That ain't nobody. And I would imagine he isn't alone with his opinion.


That doesn't count, apparently.
 
2014-04-16 07:04:18 PM  

whidbey: bobothemagnificent: The point was labor laws don't always help, nor do minimum wages

lolwut

Lastly, for everyone, I would say that productivity is a very complex issue.

No it isn't. It's a very simple issue: pay people living wages.


Yes, it IS a complex issue.  You can't compare China and U.S., the cultures are radically different.  It would be like comparing apples and celery sticks.  Pay is only one part of the picture.  It might be the most important part, but it isn't the only part.  You can offer great pay and get nothing done if people aren't motivated to work.  At that point, the company goes under and nobody has a job.  At the same time, if the pay issue is so bad, people wouldn't work for that company.  The company would go under because it couldn't maintain a workforce. The problem in the U.S. is that there is nothing the government can do, other than setting the minimum wage at an absolutely ridiculous amount of money, to make a company pay its workers more.  Workers can't quit because then they have the potential to lose everything, so companies have no motivation to pay more than what they're paying now.  If personal debt was reduced or eliminated, I bet you would see some increase in pay because that would give workers some wiggle room.  The real problem isn't that pay isn't increasing, its that workers aren't as free to switch to higher paying due to higher debt, taxes, etc.  That prevents competition for the best workers, which in return will increase pay.

And don't forget watching porn on the job.  That always reduces productivity.

In China you can pay them next to nothing because when you have nothing, that pittance is better than what they have now.
 
2014-04-16 07:07:26 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: bobothemagnificent: Nobody is suggesting we eliminate the minimum wage.

The ranking Republican on the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee has expressed, on the record, his support for eliminating the minimum wage. That ain't nobody. And I would imagine he isn't alone with his opinion.


Nobody in the article is suggesting that.  Clarification given.
 
2014-04-16 07:09:47 PM  
So, when do we burn Eric Bolling at the stake?
 
2014-04-16 07:14:30 PM  
bobothemagnificent: In China you can pay them next to nothing because when you have nothing, that pittance is better than what they have now.

So, the American poor is too rich, is what you are saying.
 
2014-04-16 07:14:33 PM  

bobothemagnificent: Nobody in the article is suggesting that.


Great. Yet some members of Congress are. They would eliminate the minimum wage given the chance. So let's not pretend that because some dickbag on Fox danced around the issue that there aren't people in actual positions of power who are in support of no minimum wage.
 
2014-04-16 07:17:48 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: bobothemagnificent: Nobody in the article is suggesting that.

Great. Yet some members of Congress are. They would eliminate the minimum wage given the chance. So let's not pretend that because some dickbag on Fox danced around the issue that there aren't people in actual positions of power who are in support of no minimum wage.


You're really surprised he moved the goalposts for this?
 
2014-04-16 07:19:04 PM  

stonicus: FTFA: "Who would hire someone that can shut off and [do] whatever they want after six o'clock?"

What the fark does that even mean?  They want robots apparently, or people who are working every second they are awake... we have a word for that... slave.


The Walmart near my last house had a sign: if you have any time commitments such as college, a second job or elderly parents please do not waste our time and yours by applying. We require round the clock availability seven days a week for our flexible scheduling." I memorized that sign because it exemplified the thinking businesses often have of employees. They own you. There is no longer any hiding from it. You are no longer trading hours for dollars but your entire existence.

Things were that way for thousands of years, from the days of Sumeria where the city god owned everything inside including the labor of the people (hence big civic projects were relatively easy like walls and ziggurats) to the factory towns. The unions rebelled, fighting pitched battles in the streets with police and military before the federal government recognized unions as lawful in order to stop the bloodshed.

Between those times more or less openly employers had absolute control over employees.

We are fighting against history with the last century of economic organization. But it is a fight worth fighting for. Every job should have established hours. The rest of the time the employee (at any level) should be able to say or do anything within the bounds of law.
 
2014-04-16 07:25:24 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.

Sorry was in a meeting but just wanted to point out this is an insanely baseless assertion with absolutely no merit.

So is socialism, historically.


i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-16 07:25:31 PM  

mcreadyblue: Monkeyhouse Zendo: mcreadyblue: Well, SS and Medicare are unstable past 20 years and I don't hear the Democrats suggesting the age limits for both be raised to 70.

Remove the FICA cap and cap payouts at median income and the "problem" is solved for the next century.

What about MediCare?


Universal government backed single payer modeled after the most successful systems in the EU but modified to address where they fall down.
 
2014-04-16 07:31:23 PM  
The hosts are required to suck the whole hammer, both the ball and the peen.
 
2014-04-16 07:42:58 PM  

purple kool-aid and a jigger of formaldehyde: The_Man_On_The_Phone: This is not the early 1900s.  Without a minimium wage people would not be making a "dollar a week."  That's BS.   It would be around 3-4 dollars an hour, and competing against other workers,  they could stand to earn more.

It will be a race to the bottom as people get more and more desperate and start to undercut each other because why should I pay you $2 when this guy over here has hungrier kids than you do and will work for $1 because it's better than nothing.


i1.ytimg.com
"Twenty minutes I am bid! Do I hear eighteen? Eighteen? You sir! Eighteen minutes!"

 
2014-04-16 07:44:43 PM  

sendtodave: Tigger: sendtodave:
But, anyway, socialism works when everyone see  most everyone else as part of their in-group.  Whatever that in-group criteria is.

Sorry was in a meeting but just wanted to point out this is an insanely baseless assertion with absolutely no merit.

So is socialism, historically.


wat
 
2014-04-16 07:49:30 PM  

sendtodave: Aldon: The funny thing is that if you are talking about things like Christmas paid holidays and official languages you do have an advantage dealing with those issues if most people think alike. But things like big social advances or programs, it is better to realize not all people think like you so you can vote for what is better for the whole society.That's the problem we have in the US illustrated in the healthcare debate. People who have never been without health insurance or really sick think most people think like them and don't want the government to help with health insurance. Anyone who thinks differently is a freeloader or lazy.The point is realizing that people are different, have different experiences and needs helps with getting social programs working. Thinking everyone is like you hurts the process of implementing social programs.

Why would you believe that people vote for something that doesn't benefit themselves directly, or people "like them?" Even your example says otherwise."People like me don't need government help regarding health insurance. People who are not like me are moochers."Basically, social consciousness, and a willingness to help, extends only to "people who are like me."


In our society (the US) many of the rich and powerful actively work against items that don't benefit themselves.  They use their power and money to change the minds of those who would benefit from (for example) a universal healthcare system.  They form their own "group" -let's call them the bootstrappers that are really not homogeneous other than believing the same ideology.

In a place like Sweden they had rich people as well, they obviously didn't actively oppose the social programs on the same level as the rich and powerful do in the US.  This has nothing to do with most Swedish people being one race/culture.  There must be some other factor, maybe education?
 
2014-04-16 07:57:32 PM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

No one ever offers a real explanation why the Northern European model wouldn't work in the US, only some vague crap about how it won't scale to a country the size of the US. But every time two corporations want to merge they use the rationale that "economies of scale" will result in more efficiency and lower costs. But you can't upscale the Swedish model to fit the US because it will result in less efficiency and higher costs. Smells like BS to me.


One minor issue I can see is Sweden doesn't have the vast population skewing that the US has. It's easier to do things well when you have something akin to California and few free riders like almost everything between the Rockies and the Mississippi river. Paying to support, defend, feed, and otherwise deal with "flyover" areas is a major cost drain for the US.

That being said, the US shouldn't be adopting the Nordic model exactly as written, but we could certainly move a little more in the socialist direction and solve a hell of a lot of problems.
 
2014-04-16 08:26:43 PM  
The fact I can't burn down my competitor's delivery fleet is an onerous business regulation.
 
2014-04-16 08:26:57 PM  
sendtodave:

Basically, social consciousness, and a willingness to help, extends only to "people who are like me."

I think the point you were really trying to make the whole time was this: a very large portion of the controlling interests in America are less socially conscious, and therefore suffer from a deficit of rational self-interest.  This is reflected in the aggregate policy of the United States, both domestic and foreign.

Social consciousness is composes of two related factors: enlightened self-interest in the sense of knowing what works in a society, and how large your in-group is: i.e. who you are willing to sympathize/empathize with (which is the basis of all non-exploitative human relationships).

One can have a highly intricate and beneficial, but exclusionary society (say aristocracy, or badly implemented capitalism), or a really crappy and unenlightened, yet highly egalitarian society (badly implemented socialism).  Neither are desirable or "socially conscious".

Racism is just a symptom of a deeper problem in the American gestalt.  There is a strain of brutish, deliberately anti-intellectual, anti-egalitarian, and outright contemptuous arrogance towards each other that has always run through this country, and it has gotten stronger over the past few decades.
 
2014-04-16 08:37:03 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-04-16 08:44:42 PM  

BSABSVR: Yeah.  China builds ghost cities to keep people employed.  A large percentage of the country is literally employed to do busy work in order to keep the peace.  Something tells me that the brain trust at The Five would shiat the bed if the government were paying people to build giant, empty  metropolii in the middle of the Dakotas.


They're not ghost towns because of this. They're ghost towns because Real Estate in China is considered a better investment than stock. So these massive city complexes pop up, investors dump huge chunks of money into them and... people don't bother moving in, in most cases. It's less Government, and more a cross-section of what happens when untrustworthy stock mixes with bizarre ideas of what something is worth by private investors.
 
2014-04-16 09:04:49 PM  

gameshowhost: Here, here!

[img.fark.net image 567x401]




Where, where?
 
2014-04-16 09:47:36 PM  

Quasar: It's amazing how little it takes for conservatives to fawn over KGB dictators and Chinese business practices.


Yeah, I've noticed that...
 
2014-04-16 10:09:02 PM  

tlchwi02: how have we beat the swedes if they are happier and healthier than we are?


They also have a higher per capita GDP than the US. And I suspect that the wealth will be more evenly distributed as well.

Per capita GDP figures According to the World Bank:

US (2012): $51,749
Sweden (2012): $55,040

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

Who does he think is going to be able to watch him vomit his mindless opinions if no one can afford cable any more?
 
2014-04-16 10:10:54 PM  

Lord_Baull: I'm totally surprised Fox News would look to a communist authoritarian regime to model their labor laws after.


I'm not. The right wing is all about authoritarianism these days.
 
2014-04-16 11:16:53 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."

From the article you linked, one of the trade-offs listed by the author: "faster growth rates in exchange for greater inequality."  And there it is in a nutshell. It has nothing to do with "homogeneous societies" (a racial dog whistle if I've ever heard one) or the challenges of administering welfare over large areas/populations. The fact is that our culture praises individualism to the point of making ruthless sociopathy an acceptable philosophy. It's not a practical problem, it's a lack of will to create a more equal society.

Basically a lot of fancy bullsh*t to "got mine, f*ck you".


The sentiment is correct, if the wording is not. "Homogeneous societies" doesn't necessarily mean "all-white societies." The Scandinavian countries are not just racially homogenous, they are politically, socially and psychologically homogenous as well. This makes designing and implementing programs that create social equality, as you say, across a wide spectrum, much simpler, because there are fewer diverse segments of the population to convince or placate.

And yes, there is the problem of administering and distributing welfare over a large population. Sweden, for instance, has a population density of 22 people per sq/km. America has an average population density of about 34 people per sq/km...but in the largest cities, (New York, LA, Chicago) that number is as high as 10,000 people per sq/km. So administering an equitable welfare program over such a large number of people, with such a wildly varying degree of population density and distribution, is insanely more difficult than in Sweden, where the majority of the residents live in two cities (Stockholm and Gotenburg).

I don't discount racism and apathy in America as causes of income inequality; but also America puts great emphasis and pride on being an extremely diverse nation, and an extremely self-reliant nation, and the kind of social equity and social welfare homogeneity that is possible in a country with 2000 years of having to get along with each other because they were a small warlike country surrounded by enemies, is not possible in a country with only 300 years' history based on being our own place and doing our own thing.
 
2014-04-16 11:49:51 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The sentiment is correct, if the wording is not. "Homogeneous societies" doesn't necessarily mean "all-white societies." The Scandinavian countries are not just racially homogenous, they are politically, socially and psychologically homogenous as well. This makes designing and implementing programs that create social equality, as you say, across a wide spectrum, much simpler, because there are fewer diverse segments of the population to convince or placate.


The  problem is not that we have to work through such problems, but that we won't even TRY, and that is what makes the sentiment little more than dogwhistle bullshiat.
 
2014-04-17 12:03:13 AM  

bobothemagnificent: You can't compare China and U.S., the cultures are radically different.


Oh please. The only difference is that Chinese industry pays its workers crap wages.

Stop talking shiat.

In China you can pay them next to nothing because when you have nothing, that pittance is better than what they have now.

You mean they can get away with it because there aren't minimum wage laws.

Dude you are the ultimate elitist.
 
2014-04-17 12:03:30 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Gyrfalcon: The sentiment is correct, if the wording is not. "Homogeneous societies" doesn't necessarily mean "all-white societies." The Scandinavian countries are not just racially homogenous, they are politically, socially and psychologically homogenous as well. This makes designing and implementing programs that create social equality, as you say, across a wide spectrum, much simpler, because there are fewer diverse segments of the population to convince or placate.

The  problem is not that we have to work through such problems, but that we won't even TRY, and that is what makes the sentiment little more than dogwhistle bullshiat.


No argument there. Because trying is HAAAAAARRRRRDD.
 
2014-04-17 12:12:50 AM  

Parthenogenetic: Well no 1 curr, but did anybody actually read the damn article to find out who uttered the quote in the headline?


Wait, so you're saying a Fark headline was purposely misleading so as to garner more comments, and with that, more ad views and revenue?

Boy, never seen that kind of thing 'round here.
 
2014-04-17 12:20:56 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Gyrfalcon: The sentiment is correct, if the wording is not. "Homogeneous societies" doesn't necessarily mean "all-white societies." The Scandinavian countries are not just racially homogenous, they are politically, socially and psychologically homogenous as well. This makes designing and implementing programs that create social equality, as you say, across a wide spectrum, much simpler, because there are fewer diverse segments of the population to convince or placate.

The  problem is not that we have to work through such problems, but that we won't even TRY, and that is what makes the sentiment little more than dogwhistle bullshiat.


It really doesn't behoove big business to treat workers like people. That would mean they might start demanding better conditions. Bonus: they would demand that the workers who produce the goods have a bigger say in company operations.

Can't have that. Because Reagan or something.
 
2014-04-17 01:40:29 AM  

whidbey: bobothemagnificent: You can't compare China and U.S., the cultures are radically different.

Oh please. The only difference is that Chinese industry pays its workers crap wages.

Stop talking shiat.

In China you can pay them next to nothing because when you have nothing, that pittance is better than what they have now.

You mean they can get away with it because there aren't minimum wage laws.

Dude you are the ultimate elitist.


China does have a minimum wage, you know.  Their economy is also crap.  Of all the countries to emulate, China is definitely not it.
 
2014-04-17 02:04:57 AM  

BSABSVR: Yeah.  China builds ghost cities to keep people employed.  A large percentage of the country is literally employed to do busy work in order to keep the peace.  Something tells me that the brain trust at The Five would shiat the bed if the government were paying people to build giant, empty  metropolii in the middle of the Dakotas.


They don't give a shiat if people are employed IMHO. They're doing it to prop up the economy, ie., the companies building them.
 
2014-04-17 02:51:34 AM  

Serious Black: I do appreciate your answer, but here's one straight from the horse's mouth as to why we can't do it: "[A] lot of liberal proposals essentially ask us to assume that American government - the quasi-imperial government of a vast, diverse, immigrant-heavy continent of three hundred million people - can somehow, in some future dispensation, approach the efficiency of welfare states administered on a much smaller scale and for a much more homogenous population."


Essentially, the problem is It's really haaaaaaard. Shame you don't have this sort of smaller governmental structure that can handle these things in a more local, effective, efficient way.
 
2014-04-17 06:17:17 AM  

bobothemagnificent: Lastly, for everyone, I would say that productivity is a very complex issue. Besides just labor laws and minimum wage, which is really meant for teenagers getting summer jobs and the like, not for adults trying to live (I would support a 2 tier minimum wage- 1 for minors, 1 for adults), you have to look at cultural attitudes towards work. We work hard in America and have a work ethic that goes all the way back to those Puritan bastages who settled here. If you want to blame anyone for not having 31 paid days off, paid maternity leave, etc., blame the Puritans. The problem that I see today is that same work ethic is simply non-existent in today's society in America like it used to be. There is a sense of entitlement that exists on some level in each succeeding generation.


First, you realize we perceive there are jobs meant for teenagers now because at one time jobs were so plentiful and advancement was generally a given that only the most truly indolent adults were stuck in them.

Second, as for cultural attitudes towards work...Americans work more hours or comparable to any first world country. Our workforce is more educated and more productive than at any time in our history. This is a systemic problem with our shiatty version of capitalism, not a cultural one.

Third, as for this sense of entitlement in gen Y, they should expect more than their parents had, this has always been a virtue in America. However they have more debt, fewer opportunities, lower pay, a higher cost of living, and are badgered by know nothing people like you that have no understanding of the real problems within our economy.
 
2014-04-17 07:00:17 AM  

Clever Neologism: sendtodave:

Basically, social consciousness, and a willingness to help, extends only to "people who are like me."

I think the point you were really trying to make the whole time was this: a very large portion of the controlling interests in America are less socially conscious, and therefore suffer from a deficit of rational self-interest.  This is reflected in the aggregate policy of the United States, both domestic and foreign.

Social consciousness is composes of two related factors: enlightened self-interest in the sense of knowing what works in a society, and how large your in-group is: i.e. who you are willing to sympathize/empathize with (which is the basis of all non-exploitative human relationships).

One can have a highly intricate and beneficial, but exclusionary society (say aristocracy, or badly implemented capitalism), or a really crappy and unenlightened, yet highly egalitarian society (badly implemented socialism).  Neither are desirable or "socially conscious".

Racism is just a symptom of a deeper problem in the American gestalt.  There is a strain of brutish, deliberately anti-intellectual, anti-egalitarian, and outright contemptuous arrogance towards each other that has always run through this country, and it has gotten stronger over the past few decades.


Most of it will die with the Boomers - the Reagan Revolution was just that huge bulge in the population getting old and bitter.
America has about another 15 years of Boomer-shiat to live through. Or whenever you young folks decide that voting is worth the trouble.
Whichever comes first.
 
2014-04-17 07:33:09 AM  

jso2897: Most of it will die with the Boomers - the Reagan Revolution was just that huge bulge in the population getting old and bitter.
America has about another 15 years of Boomer-shiat to live through. Or whenever you young folks decide that voting is worth the trouble.
Whichever comes first.


We do vote, we're still outnumbered.  And propaganda (which works, BTW) is still owned by the boomers and the aristocrats.   Paul Ryan and Eric Cantor are pretty young, they've also been "idle rich" their whole lives and career politicians for decades.
 
2014-04-17 01:09:23 PM  
you know... it's not really the greed and bigotry of regressives that bothers me... that i expect from terrible people... it's the stupidity that i just can't stand.
 
2014-04-18 01:15:46 AM  
Just roll everything back to the 19th century and everything will be great!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873
 
Displayed 285 of 285 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report