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(Talking Points Memo)   Bitcoin exchange site Magic the Gathering Online Exchange denied bankruptcy protection in Japan, likely because you need to have real money for it to be protected in bankruptcy   (talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Magic, the Gathering, Japan, Gox, Tokyo, consumer protection, failures  
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1110 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 Apr 2014 at 11:51 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-16 11:26:03 AM  
Am I missing something, or does "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange" not fit in this headline at all?
 
2014-04-16 11:27:52 AM  

scottydoesntknow: Am I missing something, or does "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange" not fit in this headline at all?


Mt.Gox was the exchange that went down the crapper awhile back.

Mt.Gox = Magic the Gathering Online Exchange
 
2014-04-16 11:29:26 AM  

Rev.K: scottydoesntknow: Am I missing something, or does "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange" not fit in this headline at all?

Mt.Gox was the exchange that went down the crapper awhile back.

Mt.Gox = Magic the Gathering Online Exchange


Thanks!
 
2014-04-16 11:57:55 AM  
Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.
 
2014-04-16 12:04:25 PM  

ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.


Indeed.
 
2014-04-16 12:07:30 PM  
Sorry subby ,butYou need to translate that in Klingon in order for the Bitcoin collectors to know what you're talking about
 
2014-04-16 12:07:49 PM  
If you put your money into an unregulated currency and hand it to an unregulated "bank" run by someone with no experience, the lesson you learned is more valuable than the money you lost.
 
2014-04-16 12:10:52 PM  

MrEricSir: If you put your money into an unregulated currency and hand it to an unregulated "bank" run by someone with no experience, the lesson you learned is more valuable than the money you lost.


A lot of them haven't learned squat, and try to spin every disaster and example of incompetence into a reason why it's good for bitcoin

bitcoiners (and their compatriots, gold bugs) are the comedy gift that keeps on giving
 
2014-04-16 12:13:22 PM  

ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.


i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-16 12:15:13 PM  
I'm sure there's a "tapped out" joke to be made here, I'm just not clever enough to think of one.
 
2014-04-16 12:25:35 PM  

ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.


This thing is beautiful
 
2014-04-16 12:26:04 PM  
I sent all my bitcoins to a Nigerian Oil Prince who promised me he'd make me thousands on my investment. I can't wait to use it to buy swamp land in Florida and a time share in Death Valley!!!!
 
2014-04-16 12:27:36 PM  

BigJake: MrEricSir: If you put your money into an unregulated currency and hand it to an unregulated "bank" run by someone with no experience, the lesson you learned is more valuable than the money you lost.

A lot of them haven't learned squat, and try to spin every disaster and example of incompetence into a reason why it's good for bitcoin

bitcoiners (and their compatriots, gold bugs) are the comedy gift that keeps on giving


Bitcoiners are in a three-way tie with Young Earth Creationists and Flat Earthers for the top spot of 'People You Shouldn't Expect To Have A Rational Debate With'
 
2014-04-16 12:29:30 PM  

Rev.K: scottydoesntknow: Am I missing something, or does "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange" not fit in this headline at all?

Mt.Gox was the exchange that went down the crapper awhile back.

Mt.Gox = Magic the Gathering Online Exchange


That is correct. However, there is debate about whether any MtG card were ever traded on the exchange before it switched over to Bitcoin. I've seen screen caps that claim to show card trading but they looked shopped to me. Nevertheless, it has always slightly amused me of the name's origin given its history.
 
2014-04-16 12:34:00 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Bitcoiners are in a three-way tie with Young Earth Creationists and Flat Earthers for the top spot of 'People You Shouldn't Expect To Have A Rational Debate With'


let's not shortchange truthers and anti-vaxxers
 
2014-04-16 12:39:42 PM  

BigJake: RoyFokker'sGhost: Bitcoiners are in a three-way tie with Young Earth Creationists and Flat Earthers for the top spot of 'People You Shouldn't Expect To Have A Rational Debate With'

let's not shortchange truthers and anti-vaxxers


They're in a tie for 4th because they have more concrete evidence to back up their claims. Relatively speaking...
 
2014-04-16 12:48:35 PM  

worlddan: Rev.K: scottydoesntknow: Am I missing something, or does "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange" not fit in this headline at all?

Mt.Gox was the exchange that went down the crapper awhile back.

Mt.Gox = Magic the Gathering Online Exchange

That is correct. However, there is debate about whether any MtG card were ever traded on the exchange before it switched over to Bitcoin. I've seen screen caps that claim to show card trading but they looked shopped to me. Nevertheless, it has always slightly amused me of the name's origin given its history.


Oh certainly.

It's why any headline I submit involving them has to have the full name spelled out, just to add further emphasis that people were attempting to make serious financial dealings with a site called "Magic the Gathering Online Exchange"

/subby
 
2014-04-16 12:51:13 PM  

BigJake: MrEricSir: If you put your money into an unregulated currency and hand it to an unregulated "bank" run by someone with no experience, the lesson you learned is more valuable than the money you lost.

A lot of them haven't learned squat, and try to spin every disaster and example of incompetence into a reason why it's good for bitcoin

bitcoiners (and their compatriots, gold bugs) are the comedy gift that keeps on giving


Religions often continue after their prophets have been shown to be dead wrong.
 
2014-04-16 12:53:44 PM  

ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.


Nice.
 
2014-04-16 12:59:53 PM  
Seems someone Made-Off with a lot of people's money....
 
2014-04-16 01:03:01 PM  

ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.


Makes it obvious that bitcoins are a variation on a pyramid scheme.
 
2014-04-16 01:03:49 PM  

Carousel Beast: ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.

Makes it obvious that bitcoins are a variation on a pyramid scheme.


I got stuck at the ATM, couldn't make it do anything other than tell me I didn't have the right command.  :(
 
2014-04-16 01:05:16 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Bitcoiners are in a three-way tie with Young Earth Creationists and Flat Earthers for the top spot of 'People You Shouldn't Expect To Have A Rational Debate With'


Someone is getting rich off of this, it's just not you or me or anyone we know who's all about the bitcoin.
 
2014-04-16 01:05:59 PM  

BizarreMan: Carousel Beast: ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.

Makes it obvious that bitcoins are a variation on a pyramid scheme.

I got stuck at the ATM, couldn't make it do anything other than tell me I didn't have the right command.  :(


Keep walking.
 
2014-04-16 01:21:32 PM  
So if it's not real money then it can't be laundered, right?
 
2014-04-16 01:28:37 PM  

Courtney Love's Genital Warts: RoyFokker'sGhost: Bitcoiners are in a three-way tie with Young Earth Creationists and Flat Earthers for the top spot of 'People You Shouldn't Expect To Have A Rational Debate With'

Someone is getting rich off of this, it's just not you or me or anyone we know who's all about the bitcoin.


I never said that nobody's making a metric fark-ton of money off bitcoin, just that the supporters are totally convinced of the inevitable success of bitcoin in replacing all the world's currencies and any argument against the superiority of bitcoin stems from a conditioned response in maintaining the economic status quo and further, reasons.
 
2014-04-16 01:29:26 PM  

neversubmit: So if it's not real money then it can't be laundered, right?


"Tumbling" is the term for laundering bit-coins so their block-chain origins cannot be identified.  It's a kind of laundering that's only applicable for when "passed from this anonymous user to that one" is still too much information.
 
2014-04-16 01:38:38 PM  

ikanreed: Advanced bitcoin simulator <- absolutely worth playing through.


Have you tried saving, then loading from a save state?

If you try to click the "recover lost bitcoins" link enough, it will ask for a number of bitcoins you have.

Enter a large number.

it will give you a new game to play.

Recommendation - buy as many miners as you can as soon as you can - don't stop clicking.
 
2014-04-16 02:03:06 PM  
The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.
 
2014-04-16 02:19:40 PM  
i bought 4 bit coins for a lark for 25 bucks

got lucky i guess
 
2014-04-16 02:27:09 PM  

Luven: The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.


monetary Second Life
 
2014-04-16 02:28:23 PM  
I bought and sold bitcoins, made profits and losses, and even lost a bit on Mt. Gox.

They proved very, very useful when I was traveling and my ATM cards did not work with any ATMs in an entire country (other people's cards from the same bank did work, so there was absolutely no reason to expect that mine would not - I even called my bank and they couldn't figure it out). I traded bitcoins for cash with a fellow traveler and bitcoin owner. I also was able to advance cash to myself via Western Union for a fee a few days later, but only with the help of American Express. Western Union's website ALWAYS sent me to the local version, which was in a language I don't speak and it didn't include the things I needed to make an account and link it to my bank. Pro tip: when traveling, have a VPN based in your home country, because so many websites set their languages based on your locations and do not allow you to change that.

A few days later my new friend's wallet was stolen, so he didn't have any of his cards, and he didn't have an account with American Express so he couldn't use them. I bought some bitcoin from him and gave him cash.

There are two lessons in this.
1: The internet, and wifi in particular, has universal standards that everyone follows. It is one of the very few things in the world with this feature. Cellphones on the other hand, well you better hope you have a global phone that is truly global, or that you only travel to countries that use your same network technology - and that you can pay the bill (yeah there are 'workarounds', but try using them if you travel only once or twice a year).
2: Always, always, always have currency when you travel. If you don't have it, you need a way to get it. If you can't get it, you are screwed. Bitcoin depends ONLY on the internet, so as long as someone within communicating distance is willing to buy, you can make a transaction - because the internet is available in any country you can travel to.

It would have been great if my ATM cards worked and my friend's wallet hadn't been stolen, we would have never needed bitcoin. But those problems did happen. Our crazy imaginary monopoly money worked.
 
2014-04-16 02:43:22 PM  
hahahahahahahahahaha
 
2014-04-16 02:50:24 PM  

Chris45215: I bought and sold bitcoins, made profits and losses, and even lost a bit on Mt. Gox.

They proved very, very useful when I was traveling and my ATM cards did not work with any ATMs in an entire country (other people's cards from the same bank did work, so there was absolutely no reason to expect that mine would not - I even called my bank and they couldn't figure it out). I traded bitcoins for cash with a fellow traveler and bitcoin owner. I also was able to advance cash to myself via Western Union for a fee a few days later, but only with the help of American Express. Western Union's website ALWAYS sent me to the local version, which was in a language I don't speak and it didn't include the things I needed to make an account and link it to my bank. Pro tip: when traveling, have a VPN based in your home country, because so many websites set their languages based on your locations and do not allow you to change that.

A few days later my new friend's wallet was stolen, so he didn't have any of his cards, and he didn't have an account with American Express so he couldn't use them. I bought some bitcoin from him and gave him cash.

There are two lessons in this.
1: The internet, and wifi in particular, has universal standards that everyone follows. It is one of the very few things in the world with this feature. Cellphones on the other hand, well you better hope you have a global phone that is truly global, or that you only travel to countries that use your same network technology - and that you can pay the bill (yeah there are 'workarounds', but try using them if you travel only once or twice a year).
2: Always, always, always have currency when you travel. If you don't have it, you need a way to get it. If you can't get it, you are screwed. Bitcoin depends ONLY on the internet, so as long as someone within communicating distance is willing to buy, you can make a transaction - because the internet is available in any country you can travel to.

It would have been grea ...


What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?

You: "My ATM card won't work!"
Friend: "I'll loan you some cash."

Friend: "My wallet was stolen!"
You: "I got some money off Western Union, so here's what I owe you back."
 
2014-04-16 03:51:51 PM  

Crudbucket: What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?

You: "My ATM card won't work!"
Friend: "I'll loan you some cash."

Friend: "My wallet was stolen!"
You: "I got some money off Western Union, so here's what I owe you back."


www.clevescene.com
 
2014-04-16 04:22:31 PM  

BigJake: Luven: The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.

monetary Second Life


Or in Minecraft selling enchanted gold armor you mined, smelted, and enchanted yourself and then selling it off to some 12 year old for this week's allowance.
 
2014-04-16 04:39:45 PM  
I was somewhat interested in Bitcoins as a speculative, high-risk investment, but am leaning towards not bothering at this point.

What I wish I could get into is peer-to-peer lending, but I live in Iowa and it's not legal here.
 
2014-04-16 05:06:51 PM  

albuquerquehalsey: Crudbucket: What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?

You: "My ATM card won't work!"
Friend: "I'll loan you some cash."

Friend: "My wallet was stolen!"
You: "I got some money off Western Union, so here's what I owe you back."


albuquerquehalsey: Crudbucket: What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?

You: "My ATM card won't work!"
Friend: "I'll loan you some cash."

Friend: "My wallet was stolen!"
You: "I got some money off Western Union, so here's what I owe you back."



This guy was not a friend when I met him and made the first transaction, he was just some guy who was staying in the same hotel as me. We became friends over the next few days. The transactions would have worked the same way between any two people, whether they are friends or not.
Would you "loan" upwards of $500 to a random person that you had never met before, when you know they will leave the country in a few days?
 
2014-04-16 05:53:01 PM  

Chris45215: albuquerquehalsey: Crudbucket: What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?

You: "My ATM card won't work!"
Friend: "I'll loan you some cash."

Friend: "My wallet was stolen!"
You: "I got some money off Western Union, so here's what I owe you back."

albuquerquehalsey: Crudbucket: What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?

You: "My ATM card won't work!"
Friend: "I'll loan you some cash."

Friend: "My wallet was stolen!"
You: "I got some money off Western Union, so here's what I owe you back."


This guy was not a friend when I met him and made the first transaction, he was just some guy who was staying in the same hotel as me. We became friends over the next few days. The transactions would have worked the same way between any two people, whether they are friends or not.
Would you "loan" upwards of $500 to a random person that you had never met before, when you know they will leave the country in a few days?


Collateral.  There, that was easy.
 
2014-04-16 07:05:43 PM  

Luven: The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.


As I said: pyramid scheme.
 
2014-04-16 08:37:01 PM  
I don't understand what bitcoin is and the first random person i asked on the internet didn't do a good job explaining it so it must be a scam.
 
2014-04-16 09:34:51 PM  

Luven: The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.


Those people bought dedicated miners at up to $30,000 each, and pay as much or more for electricity than they get back in coins.  They're wasting money to earn fake money to sell to other idiots for less actual money than they started with.
 
2014-04-16 09:42:21 PM  

Flappyhead: Chris45215: albuquerquehalsey: Crudbucket: What does any of that have to do with Bitcoin?
Collateral.  There, that was easy.


Not easy. I didn't have much expectation that I would be able to get cash for the entire trip. I didn't find out that American Express could help until 3 days after I arrived, and most people don't have an AmEx card at all. So, the option would probably be to sell something, rather than get a loan with collateral.
What could I sell... Laptop? No, everything on it is too important and I need it. Cell phone? Hell no, that's my only communication, and its also too important. Jewelry or other expensive items? You don't take those things to South America. And before anyone suggests that I could just give him all my clothes: American Airlines managed to lose my luggage for 3 days and they had no idea when they would get it to me, their best guess was that it was still in Texas. I had what I was wearing, my electronics, and basic daily items that fit in carry-on.

But that brings up another problem. My offered collateral would need to be worth more than the borrowed money, so the loan provider knows that I wont just run off. But, then I have no way of knowing that he wouldn't run off with my more valuable property. Or if we are both honest and I gave him my computer as collateral, he has the risk that it might be damaged or stolen while he holds it - and that is a huge loss to me, much more than the money can make up for (yes I have backups, but it's not that easy). Additionally, I value my things at a much higher price than anyone else does. To me, my things are personalized; to other people, they are used.

So, I could take all those risks and/or the loss by using collateral or selling something. Or, I could sell the guy half a bitcoin for $400 worth of local currency, which was the market rate. All I had to do was send it, wait a few minutes for it to be confirmed on the blockchain, and the deal was done. We did it during lunch. I got $400 for a fee of exactly $0. Western Union and AmEx charged $20 + a few percent and a bit more through the inflated exchange rate, and that 40 minutes to arrange, plus another half hour to find the Western Union office, fill out paperwork, and get cash. I could get by with barter, selling, collateral, or using only the few (very expensive) places that accept credit cards and getting cash back $20 at a time - but this was a vacation, I don't want to spend all my time doing that and I already spent most of my budget on the flight. Bitcoin made it easy and, as I said, bitcoin worked. I was traveling alone, had precious few days for vacation, could barely speak any of the local language (and surprisingly few locals spoke decent English), had no other clothes, and no cash in a cash-based economy, bitcoin worked. That was a wonderful thing.
 
2014-04-16 09:55:42 PM  

Ned Stark: I don't understand what bitcoin is and the first random person i asked on the internet didn't do a good job explaining it so it must be a scam.


It's not so much an intentional scam as it is analogous to the Florida land rush or the precursor to the more recent housing crash... there are some people at the root of it and scattered throughout intentionally committing fraud, but most of them are just dicking around selling snake oil they don't have the knowledge to recognize as snake oil to each other because they genuinely believe in magic and fairies and so on, or their financial equivalents.
 
2014-04-16 11:00:31 PM  

Carousel Beast: Luven: The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.

As I said: pyramid scheme.


The miners are not actually making much, if any, money right now. The mining computers are quite expensive. Exchange operators are making the most profit, but the no-fee exchanges have been taking that away. You can call it a pyramid scheme if you like, but there really isn't anyone at the top with all the money funneling to them.


Please allow me to explain the appeal of bitcoin in a nutshell:
The Bitcoin blockchain is a very efficient way of moving money. We've seen $200 million worth of bitcoin move in a single transaction, with a fee of exactly $0, and it only took about 10 minutes. The reason the Bitcoin protocol is popular and controversial is the bitcoins themselves - they proved to be a great way of rewarding early adopters.
Consider it nutshelled.


Bitcoins are not the end-all be-all of money, no one is claiming that. They are not even the end-all be-all of the blockchain concept. For simplicity, the blockchain is a public ledger - the accounting book of all the transactions, showing which account owns which coins, and everyone has a copy of it. Because everyone shares the exact same record of all the transactions, it is very easy to verify that someone has the funds that they are sending - it's impossible to "bounce a check" with bitcoin.
The blockchain concept, by the way, can be an excellent way to record transactions of copyrights, patents, and intellectual property. This is a big issue today, especially for music from the 50s or 60s where no one knows who the actual owner is, thus that music can never be sold or performed publicly because royalties cannot be paid to an unknown owner - but anyone can come out of the woodwork and start a very expensive lawsuit. If transactions of music rights are recorded in the blockchain, then royalties could be paid into the receiving address for that creation, and whoever has the password (private key) for that address can withdraw those royalties. There is no need to spend money writing licensing contracts or finding the original owner (if one even exists), you could just send money to that address. Some new innovations are coming out that could allow this to happen, and a lot more. There is work on a turing-complete blockchain protocol, which means that the blockchain will be it's own computer language, and this allows for things like derivative contracts to be written into the money. Financial contracts written with this can enforce themselves. And because it is a turing-complete language (like C, C#, Java, Python, etc), very complicated and innovative things can be done with it.

If you enjoy the feeling of intellectual discovery, it's really fun to learn about these things.
 
2014-04-16 11:14:44 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Ned Stark: I don't understand what bitcoin is and the first random person i asked on the internet didn't do a good job explaining it so it must be a scam.

It's not so much an intentional scam as it is analogous to the Florida land rush or the precursor to the more recent housing crash... there are some people at the root of it and scattered throughout intentionally committing fraud, but most of them are just dicking around selling snake oil they don't have the knowledge to recognize as snake oil to each other because they genuinely believe in magic and fairies and so on, or their financial equivalents.


You're forgetting what about the cross section of Bitcoin aficionados and people who take the derp of David Icke seriously. One circle is swallowed by the other.
 
2014-04-16 11:26:35 PM  

frankmanhog: Luven: The ones making the money are the ones mining the coins and selling them for REAL MONEY. Because they are selling you something fake for something real, it's like i traded you an imaginary house on mars for your very real house in California. So what if other stupid people are willing to give you things for that imaginary house on mars, i still got something for nothing and you're still an idiot for making the trade.

Those people bought dedicated miners at up to $30,000 each, and pay as much or more for electricity than they get back in coins.  They're wasting money to earn fake money to sell to other idiots for less actual money than they started with.


... isn't that how money works?

/half-kidding, half-serious
 
2014-04-17 08:46:49 AM  
And through all this DOGE remains at a steady exchange rate of 1 DOGE per DOGE.

Bitcoin.  Because financial regulation is for pussies... or some other such boswelox which honestly I can't even begin to fathom and frankly don't want to.  It would just mean I was contaminated with the dumb.
 
2014-04-17 09:03:45 AM  

Vaneshi: 1 DOGE per DOGE


It is still 1 Bitcoin per Bitcoin too, and 1 US dollar per 1 US dollar. See the problem with your statement?

Dogecoin was a stupid joke and its value has plummeted to less than worthless.
 
2014-04-17 10:56:35 AM  

Hand Banana: Vaneshi: 1 DOGE per DOGE

It is still 1 Bitcoin per Bitcoin too, and 1 US dollar per 1 US dollar. See the problem with your statement?

Dogecoin was a stupid joke and its value has plummeted to less than worthless.


Interested in investing in Dogecoin:

wiki.mafiascum.net
 
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