If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Atlantic)   Why are women so doubty?   (theatlantic.com) divider line 162
    More: Interesting, models of scientific inquiry, senior partner, paychecks, yoga class, David Dun, competence  
•       •       •

8729 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2014 at 11:08 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



162 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-04-16 02:11:55 AM  
One problem I have with the theory of people who are confident convince other people they are good at things despite their actual skill level is that I know people who are like this and they truly believe they are smart, good looking, good at things when they're clearly not.  They just aren't fooling anyone.  Perhaps they are just extreme examples though since I know other people who are like this who are able to snow people despite their knowledge level.  I guess it depends on the personality behind it.  Of course the people who are less believable tend to be women so perhaps that is what is skewing things for reasons the article mentions.
 
2014-04-16 08:28:52 AM  
For years, we women have kept our heads down and played by the rules

Well there's your problem right there.  The "rules" are utterly superfluous, until such time as (1) you get caught and (2) have accumulated enough enemies and (3) lack the power to get yourself off the hook.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-16 08:31:00 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: For years, we women have kept our heads down and played by the rules

Well there's your problem right there.  The "rules" are utterly superfluous, until such time as (1) you get caught and (2) have accumulated enough enemies and (3) lack the power to get yourself off the hook.


They sound like they are getting all uppity and forgetting their place.
 
2014-04-16 08:35:50 AM  

vpb: Marcus Aurelius: For years, we women have kept our heads down and played by the rules

Well there's your problem right there.  The "rules" are utterly superfluous, until such time as (1) you get caught and (2) have accumulated enough enemies and (3) lack the power to get yourself off the hook.

They sound like they are getting all uppity and forgetting their place.


I wish the hell they would.
 
2014-04-16 08:54:38 AM  
I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).

I can see cultural influences having some effect, but I can also see a biological advantage for men to have more confidence and women to have less:  If you are hunting a mammoth, you need to be confident in what you are doing or you'll be paralyzed with fear.  If you are trying to raise the next generation of your tribe, you might be less willing to take risks, and hence, be less confident.

I suspect it's a bit of both.
 
2014-04-16 09:00:17 AM  
I'm surprised more women aren't in middle management. Endless, pointless discussions seems to be right up their alley.
 
2014-04-16 09:07:15 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I'm surprised more women aren't in middle management. Endless, pointless discussions seems to be right up their alley.


They are, they do, and be thankful you don't have to be involved.
 
2014-04-16 09:50:20 AM  
You know what gets old fast? The idea that the solution to sexism is for women to just act like men.
 
2014-04-16 09:53:53 AM  
Don't you mean "doughy"?

*insert pic cottage cheese thighs*
 
2014-04-16 10:24:24 AM  

ginandbacon: You know what gets old fast? The idea that the solution to sexism is for women to just act like men.


Just as bad as the idea that men should act like women.

Let's just celebrate the differences instead of trying to change one side or the other.
 
2014-04-16 10:56:16 AM  
I'm going call BS on this.

1. Men have the same doubts, they're just conditioned from a very young age to hide them. Hence the all too true trope of the emotionally repressed alpha male. 

2. Women are better socialized. This makes this much better in team environments, but it also tends to remove that 'me first, and I don't care who thinks I'm an asshole' edge that you really need to punch through to the top in corporate America.

3. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; sure, there are fewer female CEOs and boardroom members, but...I can't recall ever hearing of corrupt female corporate raiders, pension funds thieves, golden parachutes seekers, etc. If there are fewer female Steve Jobs, there are also no female Bernie Madoffs, Ken Lays, or Gordon Geckos. I think that's an overall plus.

4. Guys have been entrenched for millenia. Women aren't going to change that in a mere 50 years. Give it another 50, and then the baseline will really be in place.
 
2014-04-16 11:04:17 AM  

whistleridge: 1. Men have the same doubts, they're just conditioned from a very young age to hide them. Hence the all too true trope of the emotionally repressed alpha male.


And if you do show them, you are effeminate, weak and undesirable.
 
2014-04-16 11:11:19 AM  
Why are women so doubty?  Men are untrustworthy.
 
2014-04-16 11:12:08 AM  
Everyone has their insecurities. Women just like to talk about them.
 
2014-04-16 11:12:58 AM  
Give the choice between insecure but competent, or incompetent but very self-assured, I will hire the competent one.

demotivators.despair.com
 
2014-04-16 11:14:22 AM  
BAN THE WORD "DOUBTY"!
 
2014-04-16 11:14:58 AM  
whistleridge:

3. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; sure, there are fewer female CEOs and boardroom members, but...I can't recall ever hearing of corrupt female corporate raiders, pension funds thieves, golden parachutes seekers, etc. If there are fewer female Steve Jobs, there are also no female Bernie Madoffs, Ken Lays, or Gordon Geckos. I think that's an overall plus.

img.fark.net


Meg Whitman
 
2014-04-16 11:15:34 AM  
Its hard to trust others when you can't trust yourself.
 
2014-04-16 11:15:36 AM  
Because they were told that 3 inches is really 6 inches by guys
 
2014-04-16 11:15:56 AM  
I've seriously been told by people that do hiring and make decisions based on performance, etc. that they value confidence more than they value competence. It's utterly baffling to me. It's not just some subconscious, irrational decision. These people are consciously helping advance those that are wrong or incompetent, don't know or think they're wrong or incompetent, but are very confident in their decisions. They'll say, "he got almost everything wrong, but he was so confident in his delivery, and that's why he passed review." WTF? Ok, confidence is probably necessary in this world inhabited by stupid humans that you must influence, but competence had better come first.
 
2014-04-16 11:18:16 AM  

jigger: I've seriously been told by people that do hiring and make decisions based on performance, etc. that they value confidence more than they value competence. It's utterly baffling to me. It's not just some subconscious, irrational decision. These people are consciously helping advance those that are wrong or incompetent, don't know or think they're wrong or incompetent, but are very confident in their decisions. They'll say, "he got almost everything wrong, but he was so confident in his delivery, and that's why he passed review." WTF? Ok, confidence is probably necessary in this world inhabited by stupid humans that you must influence, but competence had better come first.


Competence is really boring and unsexy, though. It sounds more like a rationalization after the fact to me, and people can be easily swayed (even in interviews) by someone they perceive as higher on the social totem than themselves.
 
2014-04-16 11:18:22 AM  
If fewer women are in middle management, then the Dilbert Principle would imply that this means fewer women are incompetent.
 
2014-04-16 11:19:55 AM  

PillsHere: One problem I have with the theory of people who are confident convince other people they are good at things despite their actual skill level is that I know people who are like this and they truly believe they are smart, good looking, good at things when they're clearly not.  They just aren't fooling anyone.  Perhaps they are just extreme examples though since I know other people who are like this who are able to snow people despite their knowledge level.  I guess it depends on the personality behind it.  Of course the people who are less believable tend to be women so perhaps that is what is skewing things for reasons the article mentions.


Just remember that they don't have to fool everyone, just the right people.  When you see someone like that, look at who they are trying to fool and see if they are fooled by it.

For example, guys at bars aren't trying to fool other guys, they are just looking for the one girl to fool.  And one that will be fooled by overconfidence.

Same goes at the workplace (only need to fool your boss not your coworkers) or politicians (who only need to fool 51%).
 
2014-04-16 11:20:12 AM  
The moment I learned everyone in the business world is doing the "Fake it til You Make It" dance, my career took off.

Come on ladies, get it together. You are awesome.
 
2014-04-16 11:21:26 AM  

ginandbacon: You know what gets old fast? The idea that the solution to sexism is for women to just act like men.


True. But for every man with an overinflated sense of his own competencies...and the ability to display that corresponding confidence, which is what people of both sexes respond to....there's a woman who won't ask for a raise when her superior effort goes unacknowledged. I have spoken with male employers who favour hiring degreed women for precisely this reason: they can be kept longer and cheaper than doofus men who can argue their own side, blitheringly unaware of their own mediocrity.

www.kcconfidential.com
 
2014-04-16 11:22:40 AM  
As a man, this must obviously be my fault right?

DNRTFA
 
2014-04-16 11:22:58 AM  

dittybopper: I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).


Keep your wondering to yourself! The very idea that men and women can actually be different will bring down the wrath of feminists upon you. Men and women are exactly the same except for the sexy bits.
 
2014-04-16 11:23:02 AM  
stream1.gifsoup.com

Cuz women be worryin!!!!
 
2014-04-16 11:24:30 AM  

RTOGUY: Men and women are exactly the same except for the sexy bits.


What a cis thing to say.
 
2014-04-16 11:25:30 AM  

dittybopper: I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).

I can see cultural influences having some effect, but I can also see a biological advantage for men to have more confidence and women to have less:  If you are hunting a mammoth, you need to be confident in what you are doing or you'll be paralyzed with fear.  If you are trying to raise the next generation of your tribe, you might be less willing to take risks, and hence, be less confident.

I suspect it's a bit of both.



Your theory would hold up if not for the many examples of female hunters in the animal kingdom (see: Lions). Your inability to get your mind to accept that woman can also be hunters is what is leading you to a bad conclusion.
 
2014-04-16 11:26:04 AM  
Why s the Atlantic still in business?
 
2014-04-16 11:26:37 AM  
Fark ladies, quit analyzing shiat, quit talking about shiat, grow a pair and man up already.
 
2014-04-16 11:27:39 AM  
Have you ever cried in a coworkers office? It blew my mind when I heard that from Mrs. Devo.
 
2014-04-16 11:28:08 AM  

dittybopper: I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).

I can see cultural influences having some effect, but I can also see a biological advantage for men to have more confidence and women to have less:  If you are hunting a mammoth, you need to be confident in what you are doing or you'll be paralyzed with fear.  If you are trying to raise the next generation of your tribe, you might be less willing to take risks, and hence, be less confident.

I suspect it's a bit of both.


There's no advantage to not being confident when raising kids. Skeptical, maybe. Lacking on confidence? No.
 
2014-04-16 11:28:12 AM  

jigger: I've seriously been told by people that do hiring and make decisions based on performance, etc. that they value confidence more than they value competence. It's utterly baffling to me. It's not just some subconscious, irrational decision. These people are consciously helping advance those that are wrong or incompetent, don't know or think they're wrong or incompetent, but are very confident in their decisions.



Incompetent people like to hire their own kind.  Competent people might make them look bad.  Also, incompetent people are less likely to rock the boat.  They are perceived as "team players" and are more likely to go along with the status quo.
 
2014-04-16 11:28:21 AM  

llortcM_yllort: If fewer women are in middle management, then the Dilbert Principle would imply that this means fewer women are incompetent.


THe article states they are catching up in middle management.
 
2014-04-16 11:29:33 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Why s the Atlantic still in business?


WASPs still exist even if they aren't in power anymore.
 
2014-04-16 11:29:43 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: dittybopper: I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).

I can see cultural influences having some effect, but I can also see a biological advantage for men to have more confidence and women to have less:  If you are hunting a mammoth, you need to be confident in what you are doing or you'll be paralyzed with fear.  If you are trying to raise the next generation of your tribe, you might be less willing to take risks, and hence, be less confident.

I suspect it's a bit of both.


Your theory would hold up if not for the many examples of female hunters in the animal kingdom (see: Lions). Your inability to get your mind to accept that woman can also be hunters is what is leading you to a bad conclusion.


And male seahorses give birth.
 
2014-04-16 11:29:55 AM  

monoski: Because they were told that 3 inches is really 6 inches by guys


My girlfriend asked me, just the other day, to "give her the nine inches, and make it hurt".

So, I stuck it in three times, and punched her in the eye.


Rosie the Riveter ruined America.
 
2014-04-16 11:30:13 AM  
Be doughty not doubty.

/my next book
 
2014-04-16 11:30:48 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: dittybopper: I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).

I can see cultural influences having some effect, but I can also see a biological advantage for men to have more confidence and women to have less:  If you are hunting a mammoth, you need to be confident in what you are doing or you'll be paralyzed with fear.  If you are trying to raise the next generation of your tribe, you might be less willing to take risks, and hence, be less confident.

I suspect it's a bit of both.


Your theory would hold up if not for the many examples of female hunters in the animal kingdom (see: Lions). Your inability to get your mind to accept that woman can also be hunters is what is leading you to a bad conclusion.


Not sure if serious.... 

Seems like a big huge apples-to-oranges comparison.
 
2014-04-16 11:30:55 AM  
The article really isn't that bad, I don't think 80% of you read it.
 
2014-04-16 11:31:40 AM  

dittybopper: I wonder how much of that is learned, and how much is innate (ie., biologically based).

I can see cultural influences having some effect, but I can also see a biological advantage for men to have more confidence and women to have less:  If you are hunting a mammoth, you need to be confident in what you are doing or you'll be paralyzed with fear.  If you are trying to raise the next generation of your tribe, you might be less willing to take risks, and hence, be less confident.

I suspect it's a bit of both.


uh, you mean nature vs. nurture? psych 101?

anyways yeah willingness to bypass self-preservation is something that really only comes about because there's no other choice... it's not really a cultural thing - it's more a necessity that gets slowly forced on generations (and what is culture but tradition anyways, and tradition is born out of repetition and repitition is born out of necessity), but all the same can slowly become a less valuable trait over generations
 
2014-04-16 11:32:07 AM  

netweavr: The article really isn't that bad, I don't think 80% of you read it.


Well, duh.  This is Fark, no one reads the articles.
 
2014-04-16 11:32:28 AM  
i have one daughter. In bringing her up I have made a conscious effort to not raise another 'Daddy's little girl'. Batting her eyes, pouting or throwing tantrums have never gotten her anything. While this has cost a certain amount of closeness or affection between us, I have a confident, intelligent, sociable and ethical daughter who can stand on her own regardless the circumstances.
 
2014-04-16 11:34:30 AM  

PillsHere: One problem I have with the theory of people who are confident convince other people they are good at things despite their actual skill level is that I know people who are like this and they truly believe they are smart, good looking, good at things when they're clearly not.


Wikipedia:  "The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude."

In short, some people are literally too stupid to realize just how stupid they are, and they become managers, politicians and CEOs based on misplaced confidence and good hair.
 
2014-04-16 11:36:15 AM  

whistleridge: I'm going call BS on this.

1. Men have the same doubts, they're just conditioned from a very young age to hide them. Hence the all too true trope of the emotionally repressed alpha male. 

2. Women are better socialized. This makes this much better in team environments, but it also tends to remove that 'me first, and I don't care who thinks I'm an asshole' edge that you really need to punch through to the top in corporate America.

3. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; sure, there are fewer female CEOs and boardroom members, but...I can't recall ever hearing of corrupt female corporate raiders, pension funds thieves, golden parachutes seekers, etc. If there are fewer female Steve Jobs, there are also no female Bernie Madoffs, Ken Lays, or Gordon Geckos. I think that's an overall plus.

4. Guys have been entrenched for millenia. Women aren't going to change that in a mere 50 years. Give it another 50, and then the baseline will really be in place.


All this, mostly.

I do think RE #3 that women can be just as greedy as men, but have fewer opportunities to act on it. But when they do have opportunities, unfortunately, they seem to be just as enthusiastic about taking advantage of them. There are a couple female former employees of Madoff's who were found guilty of fraud last month. They helped him rip people off for decades (though they claim to be innocent of collusion in the fraud).

And RE #2 I don't know that women are "better socialized" as much as they are used to getting things they want by socializing and accumulating allies, rather than by command of law or custom, the way men have done through the centuries. Or they get some power and influence by marrying someone politically powerful and/or wealthy.
 
2014-04-16 11:36:29 AM  

Barricaded Gunman: PillsHere: One problem I have with the theory of people who are confident convince other people they are good at things despite their actual skill level is that I know people who are like this and they truly believe they are smart, good looking, good at things when they're clearly not.

Wikipedia:  "The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude."

In short, some people are literally too stupid to realize just how stupid they are, and they become managers, politicians and CEOs based on misplaced confidence and good hair.


Whos more foolish? The fool or the person hiring the fool?
 
2014-04-16 11:36:49 AM  
"The elusive nature of confidence has intrigued us ever since we started work on our 2009 book,  Womenomics, "

Womenomics?  Seriously?  Maybe a little more self doubt in in order.
 
2014-04-16 11:36:59 AM  

Nightjars: Give the choice between insecure but competent, or incompetent but very self-assured, I will hire the competent one.

[demotivators.despair.com image 617x435]


The problem is, the insecure competent one won't apply, so you end up with the incompetent one by default.
 
Displayed 50 of 162 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report