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(The Atlantic Cities)   This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago. And here's why it's a big deal   (theatlanticcities.com) divider line 180
    More: Interesting, Great Lakes, hydrology, low waters, Midwestern United States, Department of Environmental Conservation, water levels, Huron, commercial vessel  
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36969 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2014 at 5:06 AM (13 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-16 02:19:28 PM

FarkinCubsFan: boatnerd.com


FarkinCubsFan: phaseolus: ski9600: They are owned by Japanese, Koreans and European companies though.

I think Arcelor Mittal (Luxembourg, technically, but owned by an Indian living in England) owns most of the old Inland Steel and LTV/J&L/YS&T mills up there, now.

Onkel Buck: Site for freighter watchers boatnerd.com

I read that site's news page every day. Couple years ago when ex-wife kicked me out and I got a new place to live, I saw a big ol' boat1 tied up a couple blocks away and thought "holy shiat, that thing's kinda cool"... and that's how it all started.

1. It was the St. Mary's Challenger. RIP...

Haha me too. I was in SW Michigan one day, saw this big monstrosity called "Manistee" come into the harbor. I had no idea what it was at the time, but later found out that they still ship shiat on the Great Lakes, and it was bringing road salt in. Fast forward 5 years...full-fledged boatnerd.


Thanks for link, that is a sweet site.
Grew up around the lakes, grand dad worked for Ford on the lake freighters in the 1920's before moving to the car plants.  Always loved watching the freighters go through the locks.
 
2014-04-16 03:01:48 PM

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.


Tell us how those satellite readings worked 50 years ago.
 
2014-04-16 03:08:55 PM

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.


NOTSUREIFSERIOUS.

Are you seriously asserting that the Global  LAND Temperature Anomaly value (the graph posted) would not be affected by banning A/C units and painting asphalt white?  In the experiment I cited regarding the Peruvian mountains (andes?), they proved that whitewashing a mountainside reduced the land surface temperature by ~30 degrees.  30 farking degrees.  That's a lot.  Asphalt land surface temp readings generally are 15-20 degrees above grass readings.

If you're asserting that the satellite temperature data reading (which actually, is not a "temperature" reading but rather a wavelength radiance reading and then a group of mathematicians extrapolate a temperature profile from the wavelength radiance readings and that every distinct group of mathematicians that analyzed the wavelength radiance readings created a distinct temperature profile group, and they didn't agree on a particular one) wouldn't be affected by land surface temperature, then I'm sure you're completely insane.

Painting everything white would reduce land temperature and reducing land surface temperature should be reflected in satellite wavelength readings.  Needing to explain this makes it feel like amateur hour.

And you need to consider what you're trying to prove.  Satellites have only existed since roughly the 1950s. So at MOST you're only looking at 60 years worth of data.  If you're attempting to prove that "satellite inferred temperature readings have increased since the 1950s", then that's fine.

It's also an accurate statement to say the land surface temperature readings have increased since 1973 (or whatever graph he showed).  That's fine.

But understanding  why data is trending in a certain manner and drawing conclusions from the presented facts is an entirely different ballgame.  Most of the "global warming" topics and articles are sensationalism at its finest.  And I'm not a "denier".  I'm not denying that the temperature readings are actually increasing.  I may be denying the wharggbl conclusions drawn from the data, however.
 
2014-04-16 03:12:19 PM

nickerj1: Painting everything white would reduce land temperature and reducing land surface temperature should be reflected in satellite wavelength readings.  Needing to explain this makes it feel like amateur hour.


Painting everything white would also knock us out of orbit!!! How do you think we plan to deflect asteroids?
 
2014-04-16 03:25:42 PM

leevis: Weatherkiss: phaseolus: Shipments of iron ore from the northern reaches of Minnesota were so low that the U.S. Steel plant in Gary, Indiana had to scale back production significantly in early April.

America still has a steel industry? And that there's actually still a steel plant in Gary, Indiana? That's bigger news to me than water being frozen.

We have quite a few steel mills in NW Indiana. My company does a lot of work for them.


My company does a lot of reporting on them.
 
2014-04-16 03:30:38 PM

Deep Contact: Tell us how those satellite readings worked 50 years ago.


So what you are suggesting is that, before satellites were making measurements, the data was all skewed by asphalt and local heat sources. But, after the satellites, went up these things suddenly don't influence the numbers anymore?

Maybe you should read up on concepts like: relative measurements and trends. The fact is, from a climate change point of view, the absolute numbers are irrelevant ... it is the change year-over-ear, decade-over-decade that matters. So unless they were out there re-paving with blacker and blacker asphalt every year then the asphalt doesn't matter. Same for the air-conditioners - unless they were putting out more heat every year the trend lines should be flat.
 
2014-04-16 03:31:31 PM

nickerj1: Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.

NOTSUREIFSERIOUS.

Are you seriously asserting that the Global  LAND Temperature Anomaly value (the graph posted) would not be affected by banning A/C units and painting asphalt white?  In the experiment I cited regarding the Peruvian mountains (andes?), they proved that whitewashing a mountainside reduced the land surface temperature by ~30 degrees.  30 farking degrees.  That's a lot.  Asphalt land surface temp readings generally are 15-20 degrees above grass readings.

If you're asserting that the satellite temperature data reading (which actually, is not a "temperature" reading but rather a wavelength radiance reading and then a group of mathematicians extrapolate a temperature profile from the wavelength radiance readings and that every distinct group of mathematic ...



I'd rather see parking lots that looked like this:
www.loe.org

...instead on being painted white.
I'm not sure what effect it would have on overall temperature around the lot, but it would keep my car from heating up as much.
 
2014-04-16 03:40:07 PM

astroman05: UNC_Samurai: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

Maybe not all day.  At least until sundown.

I vote Edmund Fitzgerald all day.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 320x240]

/hot


That shiat is disgusting.
 
2014-04-16 04:13:10 PM

PsiChick: Or, y'know, because it might affect the entire ecosystem, but yeah, all about the commerce...


Do you have a problem with The Economy? Because let me tell you, The Economy is the only thing standing between you and a cold death in a cave. The most important thing in the world is The Economy. It keeps us warm, it gives us things, and it is the giant engine on which this planet runs. You may have learned something about this Biology stuff in school, but don't be fooled--what is more important, money or a blade of grass? I rest my case.
 
2014-04-16 04:30:35 PM

ChrisDe: Good Lakes or Great Lakes?


Great Lakes or Greatest Lakes?
 
2014-04-16 07:16:53 PM

Nytfall: Yes this is dog: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

I think playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is close enough to being an all day Gordon Lightfoot day in and of itself.

/long ass song

Edmund fits Gerald?


Or The Rectum of Ella Fitzgerald?


There's a place we all know where the foulest winds blow,
From a shotgun that's just single-barreled,
It's wrinkled and brown, three feet from the ground,
The rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.

The legend lives on from Harlem on down
Of the arse on this musical strumpet
This bum, it is said, could reek like the dead,
A note-perfect black trouser trumpet.

With a load of legumes four heavy pounds more,
Than Ella Fitzgerald weighed empty.
That singer's kazoo was a bone to be chewed,
Then the "Gales of Fitzgerald" came early.

With a three-octave range, her chute rumbled strange,
Adept at all kinds of scat-singing,
Just feed her some beans, and you'd know what it means,
To set the band's eardrums to ringing.

Count Basie, it's claimed, was driven insane,
And Ellington felt quite imperilled,
A wee bit of bloat would pour forth the long note,
From the rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.

Ken Burns will not tell of the horrible smell,
The blue flame and the stink it would herald,
Whether live or on tapes, beware when it gapes,
The rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.

There's a place we all know where the foulest winds blow,
From a shotgun that's just single-barreled,
It's wrinkled and brown, three feet from the ground,
The rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.
 
2014-04-16 07:31:37 PM

cryinoutloud: PsiChick: Or, y'know, because it might affect the entire ecosystem, but yeah, all about the commerce...

Do you have a problem with The Economy? Because let me tell you, The Economy is the only thing standing between you and a cold death in a cave. The most important thing in the world is The Economy. It keeps us warm, it gives us things, and it is the giant engine on which this planet runs. You may have learned something about this Biology stuff in school, but don't be fooled--what is more important, money or a blade of grass? I rest my case.


Without multiple blades of grass and other life providing you oxygen to survive, you, and your money wouldn't be here. At all.

Now STFU.
 
2014-04-16 07:51:36 PM

Farking Canuck: Deep Contact: Tell us how those satellite readings worked 50 years ago.

So what you are suggesting is that, before satellites were making measurements, the data was all skewed by asphalt and local heat sources. But, after the satellites, went up these things suddenly don't influence the numbers anymore?

Maybe you should read up on concepts like: relative measurements and trends. The fact is, from a climate change point of view, the absolute numbers are irrelevant ... it is the change year-over-ear, decade-over-decade that matters. So unless they were out there re-paving with blacker and blacker asphalt every year then the asphalt doesn't matter. Same for the air-conditioners - unless they were putting out more heat every year the trend lines should be flat.


What?  Are you arguing that the number of cell towers, the total square mileage of pavement, and the total amount of air conditioners (really the total joules expelled as heat from A/Cs) since 1970 has been static?

 The proportion of all American homes with air-conditioning grew from 12 percent in 1960 to over 60 percent in 1987. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Housing.html

With a quick googling, it's currently at 87%.

The same with impermeable/impervious surfaces.  I can't find great cites, but here's a localized study of Mobile AL from 1990 til now.   http://www.usouthal.edu/geography/fearn/480page/2007/AmandaBotts.pdf
It's increased 101%.  That's in backwater Mobile AL and only from 1990 til now.  I can only imagine the % increase from 1970 to date.

The cell tower increase from 1973 to date is close to infinity percent.  I'm going to take judicial notice on that one, because cell towers were virtually non existent prior at that date.
 
2014-04-16 07:56:11 PM
start spraying aerosol.

/didnt read article
//or previous comments
 
2014-04-16 08:35:56 PM

doyner: [i1.kym-cdn.com image 500x260]


Well at least you're not actively spreading jackassery and disinformation unlike the "I thought we were worried about global warming harharher" derping morons.
 
2014-04-16 08:37:34 PM

Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.


Previous post? Meet exhibit A(sshole)
 
2014-04-16 08:39:52 PM

SevenizGud: Yeah, but this is just one part of the world. It doesn't indicate that temperatures are not going up worldwide on average. Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide:

[www.woodfortrees.org image 640x480]

Errrrrmm, what I meant to say was that this ice doesn't mean that we're seeing historic loss of ice worldwide. I mean, if you look at global sea ice anomaly, for example, then you see this:

[arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu image 512x412]

Uhm, what I was trying to say is, errrmmm, durrrrrp herrrrrrrppppp the sky is falling. The sky is falling.


And Exhibit B(all Licker)

Notice how your data only goes back 30 years, which meteorologically is equivalent to about 5 minutes.
 
2014-04-16 08:49:14 PM

some_beer_drinker: because it's still frozen, and holding up commerce? have a nice steaming cup of shut the fark up. thanks


Also because fish and ducks are dying.  Hope you poured enough shut the fark up for yourself.
 
2014-04-16 08:58:00 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: Notice how your data only goes back 30 years, which meteorologically is equivalent to about 5 minutes.


No steak in the argument, but 30 years is still 30 years.
[ie your comment is a stupid non sequitur]

Exhibit C: Insane Troll Logic.
 
2014-04-16 09:29:01 PM
I want to punch myself in the face for reading any of this thread right now.

/i should know better by now
 
2014-04-16 09:41:31 PM

wesmon: Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.

You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.


Indeed.  Climate change seems to mean warmer somewhere other than where you are.
 
2014-04-16 10:56:45 PM

nickerj1: What? Are you arguing that the number of cell towers, the total square mileage of pavement, and the total amount of air conditioners (really the total joules expelled as heat from A/Cs) since 1970 has been static?


WTF?!? The standard denier argument is not talking about the total number of air conditioners in homes nor is it talking about total area of asphalt.

The long debunked and quite out-of-date (i.e. most deniers have abandoned it) talking point is about mechanical equipment and black asphalt directly near the land based weather stations. They claim that these are direct sources of heat near the temperature measurement (completely ignoring or being ignorant of the fact that this would not affect the direction or magnitude of the long term trends being monitored).

Your response is a complete non-sequitur.
 
2014-04-16 11:55:17 PM
fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net
 
2014-04-17 12:01:21 AM
You people are blooming idiots.  Climate is not something measured year by year but over eons.  we are well within what has been considered normal on this planet.  Simple to see if you don't have a totalitarian impulse to control the lives of others.hot-topic.co.nz
 
2014-04-17 12:51:41 AM

smitton: You people are blooming idiots.  Climate is not something measured year by year but over eons.  we are well within what has been considered normal on this planet.  Simple to see if you don't have a totalitarian impulse to control the lives of others.[hot-topic.co.nz image 480x184]


bakagaijin
 
2014-04-17 01:44:26 AM

smitton: You people are blooming idiots.  Climate is not something measured year by year but over eons.  we are well within what has been considered normal on this planet.  Simple to see if you don't have a totalitarian impulse to control the lives of others.[hot-topic.co.nz image 480x184]


I remember  that old chestnut. Be aware that it represents only one geographical location, and "present temperature" corresponds to 1855. Yes, that's right, 1855. The temperature over the Holocene (together with the modern instrumental record) looks more like this:

img.fark.net


What you considered "simple to see", was, in fact, wrong.  In essence, you have been lied to, and for whatever reason, you fell for it.This should trigger some basic questions -you should be asking yourself is whether your ideological leanings are getting in the way of critical thinking.
 
2014-04-17 01:44:42 AM
Ore wa bake dewa nai. Tensai desu.
 
2014-04-17 08:38:47 AM

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: What? Are you arguing that the number of cell towers, the total square mileage of pavement, and the total amount of air conditioners (really the total joules expelled as heat from A/Cs) since 1970 has been static?

WTF?!? The standard denier argument is not talking about the total number of air conditioners in homes nor is it talking about total area of asphalt.

The long debunked and quite out-of-date (i.e. most deniers have abandoned it) talking point is about mechanical equipment and black asphalt directly near the land based weather stations. They claim that these are direct sources of heat near the temperature measurement (completely ignoring or being ignorant of the fact that this would not affect the direction or magnitude of the long term trends being monitored).

Your response is a complete non-sequitur.


The way that is worded, it seems like you are dismissing what he is saying simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of some "standard denier argument."
 
2014-04-17 08:47:09 AM

Feepit: Farking Canuck: Your response is a complete non-sequitur.

The way that is worded, it seems like you are dismissing what he is saying simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of some "standard denier argument."


Yes. Because my response was to the "standard denier argument". All of his counter-points were to arguments I did not make.

A analogy would be if I was discussing electric cars with someone and a third party jumps in with a counter-argument about trains. Whether or not what he says is correct, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
 
2014-04-17 12:19:14 PM

Farking Canuck: Feepit: Farking Canuck: Your response is a complete non-sequitur.

The way that is worded, it seems like you are dismissing what he is saying simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of some "standard denier argument."

Yes. Because my response was to the "standard denier argument". All of his counter-points were to arguments I did not make.

A analogy would be if I was discussing electric cars with someone and a third party jumps in with a counter-argument about trains. Whether or not what he says is correct, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.


I don't think any of them have actually responded to the argument your were making, including the guy you're responding to. You basically said "Yeah, it's great that Watt put it all together like that, but it's better to go right to the source, especially when you're trying to use a known liar as a source."

Everyone jumped on your accurate dismissal of Watt as an authority, and pretended everything else didn't exist.
 
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