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(The Atlantic Cities)   This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago. And here's why it's a big deal   (theatlanticcities.com) divider line 178
    More: Interesting, Great Lakes, hydrology, low waters, Midwestern United States, Department of Environmental Conservation, water levels, Huron, commercial vessel  
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37046 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Apr 2014 at 5:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



178 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-15 09:22:50 PM  
because it's still frozen, and holding up commerce? have a nice steaming cup of shut the fark up. thanks
 
2014-04-15 09:58:11 PM  
Shipments of iron ore from the northern reaches of Minnesota were so low that the U.S. Steel plant in Gary, Indiana had to scale back production significantly in early April.


I read somewhere that the steel industry is something like 3% of the U.S. GDP and pretty much all the plants located on the Great Lakes are out of ore due to the early freeze-up and late start to the shipping season, so this is potentially kind of a big deal for the U.S. economy. Latest news is the ice is finally breaking up on Lake Superior, the Port of Duluth's open, freighters are finally starting to move through the Soo Locks and won't be needing icebreaker escorts for much longer.


Shippers may be hurting now, but higher lake levels will allow them to load more cargo per boat later this year, according to the Chicago Tribune. These higher water lines also mean that those who manage the Great Lakes' harbors won't have to invest huge sums of money in dredging out the bottom. Ships will carry more, at less of a cost, once the ice melts.


True about the freighters being able to carry more immediately, but the money for lots of harbor dredging projects has already been budgeted for this year.
 
2014-04-16 12:49:51 AM  
"This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes
 
2014-04-16 01:56:10 AM  
Maybe we should work on cooling the Earth some more so we can deal with commerce disruptions like this every year.

I'm joking, of course. Warmer weather should keep those lanes open longer, year round.
 
2014-04-16 03:26:39 AM  
Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.
 
2014-04-16 04:30:45 AM  

i1.kym-cdn.com

 
2014-04-16 05:08:20 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.


why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.
 
2014-04-16 05:08:31 AM  
I don't do graphs, subby
 
2014-04-16 05:09:36 AM  

calbert: "This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes



You said it yourself. It got him a green. Also, he could have an agenda re:the climate.
 
2014-04-16 05:11:28 AM  

phaseolus: Shipments of iron ore from the northern reaches of Minnesota were so low that the U.S. Steel plant in Gary, Indiana had to scale back production significantly in early April.


America still has a steel industry? And that there's actually still a steel plant in Gary, Indiana? That's bigger news to me than water being frozen.
 
Skr
2014-04-16 05:16:18 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.


Vacationed through the Upper Penni of Michigan a few times. The trips were an excellent way for me to start hating Gordon Lightfoot. That stuff gets milked dry in gift shops.



The small bleep of 60-80 degree weather last week was the ticket to breaking up some of the water feeding Superior. 'Course winter decided to biatch slap the area again this week



Ice breaking up at Gooseberry Falls, Lake Superior
 
2014-04-16 05:17:07 AM  

some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.


I think playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is close enough to being an all day Gordon Lightfoot day in and of itself.

/long ass song
 
2014-04-16 05:27:41 AM  
So global warming is good now?
 
2014-04-16 05:29:07 AM  

Major Ethanolic: So global warming is good now?


Not if it means more Gordon Lightfoot.
 
2014-04-16 05:29:21 AM  

Yes this is dog: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

I think playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is close enough to being an all day Gordon Lightfoot day in and of itself.

/long ass song


maybe you will like this one better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPXL3iEVnCM
 
2014-04-16 05:29:38 AM  
This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.
 
2014-04-16 05:33:50 AM  

Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.


You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.
 
2014-04-16 05:38:31 AM  
There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.
 
2014-04-16 05:40:24 AM  
This could put a damper on steelhead fishing this weekend./ Going steelhead fishing this weekend
 
2014-04-16 05:40:25 AM  
Yeah, but this is just one part of the world. It doesn't indicate that temperatures are not going up worldwide on average. Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide:

www.woodfortrees.org

Errrrrmm, what I meant to say was that this ice doesn't mean that we're seeing historic loss of ice worldwide. I mean, if you look at global sea ice anomaly, for example, then you see this:

arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu

Uhm, what I was trying to say is, errrmmm, durrrrrp herrrrrrrppppp the sky is falling. The sky is falling.
 
2014-04-16 05:43:30 AM  
The Great Lakes need more electrolytes.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-04-16 05:49:17 AM  

Weatherkiss: phaseolus: Shipments of iron ore from the northern reaches of Minnesota were so low that the U.S. Steel plant in Gary, Indiana had to scale back production significantly in early April.

America still has a steel industry? And that there's actually still a steel plant in Gary, Indiana? That's bigger news to me than water being frozen.


We have quite a few steel mills in NW Indiana. My company does a lot of work for them.
 
2014-04-16 05:50:04 AM  

Major Ethanolic: So global warming is good now?


I am sure some Al Gore worshiper will claim Global Warming Derp caused Great Lakes to freeze over
 
2014-04-16 05:51:10 AM  

some_beer_drinker: Yes this is dog: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

I think playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is close enough to being an all day Gordon Lightfoot day in and of itself.

/long ass song

maybe you will like this one better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPXL3iEVnCM


Cannot youtube at work, but I don't have a general hatred of Lightfoot (there is one song that rather enjoy, can't remember name right now), but Edmund Fitzgerald goes on far too long. He could have described the sinking in real time and it would be shorter.
 
2014-04-16 05:53:06 AM  

ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.


I assume Wisconsin is working on a law to make rising water levels illegal.
 
2014-04-16 05:53:22 AM  

wesmon: Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.

You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.


Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change
 
2014-04-16 06:01:11 AM  

FloridaFarkTag: wesmon: Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.

You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.

Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change


With a reasoned and intelligent argument like that you could only have come from Orlando.
 
2014-04-16 06:01:43 AM  
I'm dreaming of a White Easter.
 
2014-04-16 06:02:38 AM  
Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .
 
2014-04-16 06:03:42 AM  
There's thick, then there's Indiana thick.  When are they gonna tear down that ship?  I was there yesterday, buying test equipment offa Craig's.  They have this lame-ass promotion something like 'Indy works' and 'Illinoyed' or something.  I've seen the werks.  Judging from their sense of architecture, I wonder if these people think their is any aspect to existence aside from bulk commodity production?  It's like they have a group neurosis:  Nobody's gonna like us for who we are, better sell 'em (mineral) coke.

They are so incredibly butch!  Here they live by a place that is and has been cleaning up by attracting international corporatism mostly by featuring some aesthetic relief from the Midwest, and they act like out China-ing China is the way to go for them. . .go figure!  They will, however, flip ya firecrackers.  Don't fall for the sale bin of fuses, however, they'll take your name.
 
2014-04-16 06:13:58 AM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.

I assume Wisconsin is working on a law to make rising water levels illegal.


Well if you know anything about south eastern counties that rely on Milwaukee to pump them water from the lake (the whole continental divide thing) you'd think that was the case.

Also, the whole issue of climate change isn't refuted by a long ice blanketed winter, the fact that we're having triple digit summers and then six month long winters - extremes with very short transitional falls and springs, should be more alarming than it just getting too warm.
 
2014-04-16 06:22:46 AM  
On the very bright side, Great Lake water levels are up. That's an awesome good thing. Thank you, Mother Nature. The article notes that a drier than normal spring and summer season could undo the gains. HORSE HOCKEY!! I don't get why some people love to be miserable and look forward to being miserable.
 
2014-04-16 06:26:21 AM  

MJMaloney187: On the very bright side, Great Lake water levels are up. That's an awesome good thing. Thank you, Mother Nature. The article notes that a drier than normal spring and summer season could undo the gains. HORSE HOCKEY!! I don't get why some people love to be miserable and look forward to being miserable.


Hope for the best but plan for the worst.
 
2014-04-16 06:26:47 AM  

aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .


That's true. But Nate and Zac have a plan ...
 
2014-04-16 06:33:27 AM  

aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .


Word. We need to eradicate those bastards even if it means farming then and selling them to China. Or learning to process and eat them at McDonald's. Furious breeders. ..
 
2014-04-16 06:33:56 AM  

aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .


That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.
 
2014-04-16 06:37:39 AM  

wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.


Lulz! Holy fark, that's hilarious! Whole new level of bullshiat.

/I suggest 'ching chong carp'
 
2014-04-16 06:39:22 AM  
This is called nature, it happens, climate change or not.
 
2014-04-16 06:39:25 AM  

wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.


OMG. Fine then...WesMON is racist because it refers to Jamaicans mon and they is black mon.
 
2014-04-16 06:41:47 AM  

FloridaFarkTag: Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change


You know how young-Earth creationists and anti-vaxxers sound completely and utterly stupid to all other rational people?  Yeah...welcome to the list.

Do you guys try to sound like idiots, or does it just come naturally?
 
2014-04-16 06:41:57 AM  

some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.


Gordon?
 
2014-04-16 06:42:37 AM  

robohobo: wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.

Lulz! Holy fark, that's hilarious! Whole new level of bullshiat.

/I suggest 'ching chong carp'


Yeah, I got a good laugh out of that too.

What I don't understand is where the carp came from. Growing up in Wisconsin they always said it was the French who brought em over centuries ago cause they liked to eat em. But the articles I read say they were introduced in the south and migrated up to the Midwest.
 
2014-04-16 06:55:31 AM  

wesmon: robohobo: wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.

Lulz! Holy fark, that's hilarious! Whole new level of bullshiat.

/I suggest 'ching chong carp'

Yeah, I got a good laugh out of that too.

What I don't understand is where the carp came from. Growing up in Wisconsin they always said it was the French who brought em over centuries ago cause they liked to eat em. But the articles I read say they were introduced in the south and migrated up to the Midwest.


Well, it all started when this guy showed up at a museum...
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-04-16 07:10:22 AM  
i26.photobucket.com
My hometown Port Huron, MI

i26.photobucket.com
Escanaba, MI

i26.photobucket.com


Site for freighter watchers boatnerd.com
 
2014-04-16 07:22:35 AM  

calbert: the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.


Well, this graphic does have a date: 4/10/14, or... a little less than a week ago.

cdn.theatlanticcities.com

Technically, it's not a 'picture', though.
 
2014-04-16 07:32:06 AM  
A great article about CLIMATE CHANGE. Let goddamn Fox News use global warming incorrectly farkers.

Great article
 
2014-04-16 07:33:58 AM  

ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.


The ice on the lakes will result in higher water levels, but not because of melts... it's because the ice prevented a lot of evaporation this past winter. The winter's record accumulation of snow certainly helps in a direct manner, but mother nature is the greatest thief of water, and it is cheated when there is ice cover.

Overzealous people who blindly parrot the climate change political line, as well as those who parrot the deniers don't seem to understand the dynamics involved.

Likewise... sea ice loss means more sea water is evaporated and recycled into rain (which is nature's desalination machine).

It's amazing how resilient our biosphere really is.
 
2014-04-16 07:38:01 AM  

SevenizGud: Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide


img.fark.net
 
2014-04-16 07:46:36 AM  
I believe, now gimme the grant money.
 
2014-04-16 07:48:28 AM  

wesmon: What I don't understand is where the carp came from. Growing up in Wisconsin they always said it was the French who brought em over centuries ago cause they liked to eat em. But the articles I read say they were introduced in the south and migrated up to the Midwest.


Evidently they didn't like to eat them quite enough. The story I often hear about various invasive species is that they were introduced because someone wanted to eat them. Great plans, no follow through apparently. Anything that is actually good for eating tends not to get the chance to be "invasive".

/ ching chong carp
// lol
 
2014-04-16 08:00:23 AM  
andrewromanblog.files.wordpress.com
 
2014-04-16 08:03:50 AM  

some_beer_drinker: because it's still frozen, and holding up commerce? have a nice steaming cup of shut the fark up. thanks


I can't. I live in Wisconsin and get my shut the fark up by the St. Lawrence seaway.
 
2014-04-16 08:06:31 AM  

wesmon: FloridaFarkTag: wesmon: Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.

You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.

Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change

With a reasoned and intelligent argument like that you could only have come from Orlando.


Hey, everything he learned about Global Warming he got from avowed climate scientists Anthony Watts and Christopher Monckton.
 
2014-04-16 08:07:19 AM  
The thing about global warming, the thing that really matters is, the key thing to remember, is that it's GLOBAL!

This is local news, Bubba. Go tell it to Joe Biden and see if he thinks it's a BFD.

 I am glad to see that the Great Lakes water levels are being boosted back towards normal. Decades of decline have severely harmed wildlife, cottagers and shipping. If we can get one of these hard winters every once in a while from the polar vortex, it may build some resiliency into the system.

I doubt that this cold snap will alter the 37 year run of above base-line global average temperatures. It's just a blip in the regional, not the world, climate.

As Stéphane Mallarmé put it, a throw of the dice will never abolish chance. Weather does not refute climate, nor does regional climate nor natural variation refute the anthropogenic effect. It might wash it out temporarily but when our population jumped from one billion to over seven billion that one time, it changed the world and our relation to it.

For one thing, many ecologists believe that a human population of one billion is sustainable in the long run, while seven billion living like Americans or Canadians is not sustainable and uses more resources than the Earth can produce. We are eating up the capital of Life on Earth along with the interest and getting fatter and stupider by the mouthful.
 
2014-04-16 08:14:12 AM  

calbert: "This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes


Yeah, I was wondering about that.  As someone who lives on the southern Lake Michigan coast, we've been pretty much ice-free here for weeks, whereas the image on the site still shows plenty of ice along the coast.  I'd wager that image is from at least a month ago.
 
2014-04-16 08:16:01 AM  

Semantic Warrior: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.

I assume Wisconsin is working on a law to make rising water levels illegal.

Well if you know anything about south eastern counties that rely on Milwaukee to pump them water from the lake (the whole continental divide thing) you'd think that was the case.

Also, the whole issue of climate change isn't refuted by a long ice blanketed winter, the fact that we're having triple digit summers and then six month long winters - extremes with very short transitional falls and springs, should be more alarming than it just getting too warm.


I was at a conference last week and attended a round table on how climate change will affect the Great Lakes region.

We're trending towards monsoonal-type of precipitation and shorter transitions as you said. Less-frequent but more intense rain and snow events will mean more fluctuation in lake levels.

I've noticed an increase in intense wind events in summer months, which make for 20+' waves out on Lake Michigan.
 
2014-04-16 08:17:47 AM  
Oh, and hello neighbor (Fast Moon).
 
2014-04-16 08:29:34 AM  
Here's a link to how the ice looked yesterday. All the free floating ice in L. Superior has been pushed up against the UP because of steady northerly winds the last few days.
 
2014-04-16 08:33:32 AM  

brantgoose: The thing about global warming, the thing that really matters is, the key thing to remember, is that it's GLOBAL!

This is local news, Bubba. Go tell it to Joe Biden and see if he thinks it's a BFD.

 I am glad to see that the Great Lakes water levels are being boosted back towards normal. Decades of decline have severely harmed wildlife, cottagers and shipping. If we can get one of these hard winters every once in a while from the polar vortex, it may build some resiliency into the system.

I doubt that this cold snap will alter the 37 year run of above base-line global average temperatures. It's just a blip in the regional, not the world, climate.

As Stéphane Mallarmé put it, a throw of the dice will never abolish chance. Weather does not refute climate, nor does regional climate nor natural variation refute the anthropogenic effect. It might wash it out temporarily but when our population jumped from one billion to over seven billion that one time, it changed the world and our relation to it.

For one thing, many ecologists believe that a human population of one billion is sustainable in the long run, while seven billion living like Americans or Canadians is not sustainable and uses more resources than the Earth can produce. We are eating up the capital of Life on Earth along with the interest and getting fatter and stupider by the mouthful.


And yet, during reports of the heat wave and drought in Australia four months ago, you were asking if it's okay to start killing deniers for the people they're starving to death yet.

/apparently weather is equivalent to climate when it's unusually hot
//but please, tell us again how we could save the world by executing the Hunts, Coors, and Kochs
 
2014-04-16 08:33:43 AM  

some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.


Maybe not all day.  At least until sundown.
 
2014-04-16 08:37:01 AM  

SevenizGud: Yeah, but this is just one part of the world. It doesn't indicate that temperatures are not going up worldwide on average. Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide:

[www.woodfortrees.org image 640x480]

Errrrrmm, what I meant to say was that this ice doesn't mean that we're seeing historic loss of ice worldwide. I mean, if you look at global sea ice anomaly, for example, then you see this:

[arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu image 512x412]

Uhm, what I was trying to say is, errrmmm, durrrrrp herrrrrrrppppp the sky is falling. The sky is falling.


Why is it so hard for you to understand "the earth" is not just "the atmosphere"?
 
2014-04-16 08:38:25 AM  

JohnCarter: [andrewromanblog.files.wordpress.com image 410x308]


They should have named it after its effects rather than the causes, because people don't seem to get it. "Global Weirding" is a far more accurate description of what we'll see.
 
2014-04-16 08:38:44 AM  

robohobo: calbert: "This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes


You said it yourself. It got him a green. Also, he could have an agenda re:the climate.


I think that suggesting that a person has some sort of pro-climate change agenda suggests that one is a denier, or a racist, or something.  So much name calling it can be hard to keep it all straight.
 
2014-04-16 08:42:52 AM  
Good Lakes or Great Lakes?
 
2014-04-16 08:43:55 AM  
Nice to see the first couple of posts which mention global warming being full of American self-centeredness. Here in Holland autumn gave winter a miss and went straight on into spring.
 
2014-04-16 08:46:38 AM  

brantgoose: The thing about global warming, the thing that really matters is, the key thing to remember, is that it's GLOBAL!

This is local news, Bubba. Go tell it to Joe Biden and see if he thinks it's a BFD.

 I am glad to see that the Great Lakes water levels are being boosted back towards normal. Decades of decline have severely harmed wildlife, cottagers and shipping. If we can get one of these hard winters every once in a while from the polar vortex, it may build some resiliency into the system.

I doubt that this cold snap will alter the 37 year run of above base-line global average temperatures. It's just a blip in the regional, not the world, climate.

As Stéphane Mallarmé put it, a throw of the dice will never abolish chance. Weather does not refute climate, nor does regional climate nor natural variation refute the anthropogenic effect. It might wash it out temporarily but when our population jumped from one billion to over seven billion that one time, it changed the world and our relation to it.

For one thing, many ecologists believe that a human population of one billion is sustainable in the long run, while seven billion living like Americans or Canadians is not sustainable and uses more resources than the Earth can produce. We are eating up the capital of Life on Earth along with the interest and getting fatter and stupider by the mouthful.


I'm not going back to living in a tee-pee because the Earth's climate can't sustain billions and billions of people. If the smog overwhelms the cities, call the engineers to develop atmospheric scrubbers. If the oceans rise and flood out the coastal cities, call in the naval architects to build boats (big boats). If the fresh water reservoirs dry up because of droughts, call in the nuclear scientists to build desalinization plants. If the Earth jukes, humans should jive.
 
2014-04-16 08:46:55 AM  
The price of steel will go up 1.5% causing some asshole CEO's stock price to drop 4%?  I feel really bad about this.
 
2014-04-16 08:48:17 AM  
Claiming this is due to climate change, with zero proof or evidence when it can very easily simply be a natural effect of nature, is doing a disservice to environmental efforts.  Could it be related to climate change, sure.  Is it?  No one knows.
 
2014-04-16 08:51:55 AM  
I'm not going back to living in a tee-pee because the Earth's climate can't sustain billions and billions of people. If the smog overwhelms the cities, call the engineers to develop atmospheric scrubbers. If the oceans rise and flood out the coastal cities, call in the naval architects to build boats (big boats). If the fresh water reservoirs dry up because of droughts, call in the nuclear scientists to build desalinization plants. If the Earth jukes, humans should jive.

That is not sufficiently alarmist to get someone to pay you money for carbon credits or funding so you can "research" for a couple more years.  I suggest you try again if you don't want to have to go get a real job.
 
2014-04-16 08:55:12 AM  
I am really happy they will be able to rent out the 100 expensive boat slips this year. This will be a big shot in the arm to the economy.
 
2014-04-16 09:00:39 AM  
The day I believed in AGW is the day I walked into an old woman's house in the middle of summer and she had the furnace cranked up to full blast, the refrigerator door wide open, enough food in the oven to feed a platoon of hungry soldiers, twenty live cats, six dead cats, a carnivorous parakeet, and a broad arrangement of gas-powered and suggestively-sculpted stimulation devices pistoning wildly in her boudoir.

Those old, people, I tell you. They are like Nero. They got theirs, and they want the world to burn while they go out in an erotic blaze of glory.
 
2014-04-16 09:01:04 AM  

Weatherkiss: phaseolus: Shipments of iron ore from the northern reaches of Minnesota were so low that the U.S. Steel plant in Gary, Indiana had to scale back production significantly in early April.

America still has a steel industry? And that there's actually still a steel plant in Gary, Indiana? That's bigger news to me than water being frozen.


Amazing, I know.  I drove by there about 10 years ago, and all those steel plants are still there.  They are owned by Japanese, Koreans and European companies though.
 
2014-04-16 09:04:00 AM  
MJMaloney187: I'm not going back to living in a tee-pee because the Earth's climate can't sustain billions and billions of people. If the smog overwhelms the cities, call the engineers to develop atmospheric scrubbers. If the oceans rise and flood out the coastal cities, call in the naval architects to build boats (big boats). If the fresh water reservoirs dry up because of droughts, call in the nuclear scientists to build desalinization plants. If the Earth jukes, humans should jive.

Humans as a whole will undoubtedly survive. But there will be turmoil as populations are forced to move around due to changing levels of precipitation and such, especially in under-developed nations. And huge areas in the northern hemisphere could become less habitable, affecting food production and a changing population. We've already seen what happens when the jet stream is disrupted and Arctic air lingers over the United States. It will be much, much worse for Great Britain and Europe if the Gulf Stream is disrupted.

/as an aside those a-holes crudding up the air in China may have something to do with the recent winter weather. The air particles there affect precipitation in the Pacific which in turn affects the northern hemisphere as it works its way eastward.
 
2014-04-16 09:04:27 AM  
In other news, Wisconsin has ICE CAVES!!!!!

/wow, cool.
 
2014-04-16 09:11:40 AM  
OMG! What can we do?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


/always thought it was "The Rectum of Edmund Fitzgerald"
 
2014-04-16 09:32:28 AM  

Feepit: The day I believed in AGW is the day I walked into an old woman's house in the middle of summer and she had the furnace cranked up to full blast, the refrigerator door wide open, enough food in the oven to feed a platoon of hungry soldiers, twenty live cats, six dead cats, a carnivorous parakeet, and a broad arrangement of gas-powered and suggestively-sculpted stimulation devices pistoning wildly in her boudoir.

Those old, people, I tell you. They are like Nero. They got theirs, and they want the world to burn while they go out in an erotic blaze of glory.


If you think that's erotic, you have issues.
 
2014-04-16 09:34:33 AM  
Politicians lie.
Global-anything is politics.

/good luck
 
2014-04-16 09:36:38 AM  
I know it's Fark, but could you all just shut the fark up for one thread and be interested in nature?
 
2014-04-16 09:38:48 AM  

MaliFinn: I know it's Fark, but could you all just shut the fark up for one thread and be interested in nature?


WHY DO YOU WANT TO SILENCE DISSENT?!
 
2014-04-16 09:40:31 AM  

SevenizGud: Yeah, but this is just one part of the world. It doesn't indicate that temperatures are not going up worldwide on average. Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide:

[www.woodfortrees.org image 640x480]

Errrrrmm, what I meant to say was that this ice doesn't mean that we're seeing historic loss of ice worldwide. I mean, if you look at global sea ice anomaly, for example, then you see this:

[arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu image 512x412]

Uhm, what I was trying to say is, errrmmm, durrrrrp herrrrrrrppppp the sky is falling. The sky is falling.


Do you have an email alert to let you know there is a climate change thread you need to post the same stupid graph in every time?

If you're so convinced climate change is a hoax, why do you even give a shiat? Who do you think you're going to convince?

Hell, I believe it's real and I don't give a shiat. Rich people own land on the coast. Poor people can build another mud hut, a little higher up. Everyone who refuses to move? Let 'em drown.
 
2014-04-16 09:40:32 AM  

Fast Moon: calbert: "This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes

Yeah, I was wondering about that.  As someone who lives on the southern Lake Michigan coast, we've been pretty much ice-free here for weeks, whereas the image on the site still shows plenty of ice along the coast.  I'd wager that image is from at least a month ago.


Well, also the image appears to still have the whole area covered under snow.  I don't know about you, but I've been enjoying the lack of snow for a while now.
 
2014-04-16 09:43:50 AM  

ski9600: They are owned by Japanese, Koreans and European companies though.


I think Arcelor Mittal (Luxembourg, technically, but owned by an Indian living in England) owns most of the old Inland Steel and LTV/J&L/YS&T mills up there, now.

Onkel Buck: Site for freighter watchers boatnerd.com


I read that site's news page every day. Couple years ago when ex-wife kicked me out and I got a new place to live, I saw a big ol' boat1 tied up a couple blocks away and thought "holy shiat, that thing's kinda cool"... and that's how it all started.

1. It was the St. Mary's Challenger. RIP...
 
2014-04-16 09:44:36 AM  

vbob: Politicians lie.
Global-anything is politics.

/good luck


That's why you should listen to scientists.
Or else just do the compilation of data yourself.
But it's easier to just say "politicians lie" and just keep on being stupid.
So to you, everything is a lie.
 
2014-04-16 09:49:19 AM  

UNC_Samurai: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

Maybe not all day.  At least until sundown.


I vote Edmund Fitzgerald all day.

3.bp.blogspot.com

/hot
 
2014-04-16 09:51:52 AM  
Dear Friend,

Greetings in the name of God,Pls let this not sound strange to you for my only surviving lawyer who would have done this died early this year.i prayed and got your email id from your country's guest book which i have been with my late husband and liked to visit once more if God will in his infinite mercies.

I am Mrs,Mary Louis. from London I am 58 years old,i am suffering from a long time cancer of the lungs which also affected my brain,from all indication my conditions is really deteriorating and it is quite obvious that, according to my doctors they have advised me that i may not live for the next two months,this is because the cancer stage has gotten to a very bad stage. I was brought up from a motherless babies home was married to my late husband for twenty years without a child ,my husband died in a fatal motor accident Before his death we were true Christians.

Since his death I decided not to re-marry,I sold all my inherited belongings and deposited all the sum of (10 million dollars) with a First Inland Bank. Presently, this money is still with them and the management just wrote me as the true owner to come forward to receive the money for keeping it so long or rather issue a letter of authorization to somebody to receive it on my behalf since I can not come over because of my illness or they get it confiscated.

Presently, I'm with my laptop in a hospital in Switzerland where I have been undergoing treatment for cancer of the lungs. my doctors have told me that I have only a few months to live.It is my last wish to see that this money is invested to any organization of your choice and distributed each year among the charity organization,the poor and the motherless babies home. I want you as God fearing person, to also use this money to fund churches, orphanages and widows,I took this decision, before i rest in peace because my time will so on be up.

 As soon as I receive your reply I shall give you the contact of the First Inland Bank.I will also issue you a letter of authority that will prove you as the new beneficiary of my fund. Please assure me that you will act accordingly as I stated herein. You are requested to send to me the following information to enable me use it to write a Letter of
Authorization on your behalf to the bank so that they will release the money to you as my new next of kin.

NAME:
__________SURNAME:__________________SEX: _____ AGE: ______MARITAL: _______________COUNTRY: CONTACT ADDRESS: ________________________PHONE NO#___________OCCUPATION:_______________

Please reply me through this my private email Address:mrsma­rylo­uis12­3[nospam-﹫-backwards]w*c­n Hoping to hear from you soon. Waiting for your reply

 Thanks And God Bless Mrs. Mary Louis
 
2014-04-16 09:53:04 AM  

SevenizGud: errrmmm, durrrrrp herrrrrrrppppp


Isn't that all you ever do?
 
2014-04-16 09:58:52 AM  
Dear deniers:  Cold is due to warming.  If you dont believe this do a simple experiment.  Turn your oven on (warming).  Put a frozen dinner in (normal cold).  Wait an hour and take it out.  You will see clearly that the frozen dinner is now even colder (warming causes cold).  Science is repeatable.
 
2014-04-16 10:00:08 AM  

fredklein: calbert: the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

Well, this graphic does have a date: 4/10/14, or... a little less than a week ago.

[cdn.theatlanticcities.com image 850x664]

Technically, it's not a 'picture', though.


Not to mention the graph doesn't match up with the picture (given that the picture was taken on Feb 19th while the graph was from Apr 10). Here is the analysis from yesterday - down to 39% ice cover.

coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov
 
2014-04-16 10:03:53 AM  

LostInTranslation: In other news, Wisconsin has ICE CAVES!!!!!

/wow, cool.


Friends of mine visited over the winter and the pics are amazing. Hopefully i can visit this xmas when I head back for the holidays. I'm heading back in August so there's only a 50-50 chance they will be there at that time.

/don't miss WI winter
//bring on beach weather
 
2014-04-16 10:04:04 AM  
There is a reference page with CURRENT UNFILTERED NOAA data on the Great Lakes,
but it's on the heretic's website.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/sea-ice-page/great-lakes- ic e-page/
 
2014-04-16 10:11:37 AM  
I find it interesting the way these threads often seem to go. The anti-science crowd rush in, post their derp, rant about Al Gore while insisting that their motivations are not political, etc. SevenizGud continues to show his dishonesty by posting his cherry picked graph from the out-of-date HADCRUT 3 dataset (version 4 has been out for over 2 years now).

Then the pro-science people show up and begin the debunking process using data with actual labels on the graphs and proper citations of sources. The bulk of the anti-science crowd fades leaving only the truly hardcore deniers.

In the old days, the thread would close out with walls of green lies but, thankfully, that seems to have faded away. Guess he's not getting a paycheck anymore.
 
2014-04-16 10:13:52 AM  

SVenus: There is a reference page with CURRENT UNFILTERED NOAA data on the Great Lakes,
but it's on the heretic's website.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/sea-ice-page/great-lakes- ic e-page/


Yes. Let's get our science from a former weatherman who couldn't even finish an undergraduate degree. He's a better source for science than all those PhD's working and publishing in the field!
 
2014-04-16 10:17:43 AM  

Farking Canuck: Yes. Let's get our science from a former weatherman who couldn't even finish an undergraduate degree. He's a better source for science than all those PhD's working and publishing in the field!


Please point us to a page where a PhD has posted current NOAA data on the Great Lakes-- unless they're too busy working and publishing in the field.
 
2014-04-16 10:17:50 AM  

ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.


Well, that depends.  If the ice is all floating in water, then it melting will not raise water levels (since ice is less dense than water, and the the ice will displace an amount of water equal to its mass).

If the ice that is melting is sitting on land, then yes, it will raise water levels.
 
2014-04-16 10:20:03 AM  

GORDON: I'm not going back to living in a tee-pee because the Earth's climate can't sustain billions and billions of people. If the smog overwhelms the cities, call the engineers to develop atmospheric scrubbers. If the oceans rise and flood out the coastal cities, call in the naval architects to build boats (big boats). If the fresh water reservoirs dry up because of droughts, call in the nuclear scientists to build desalinization plants. If the Earth jukes, humans should jive.

That is not sufficiently alarmist to get someone to pay you money for carbon credits or funding so you can "research" for a couple more years.  I suggest you try again if you don't want to have to go get a real job.


What's sad is that there are still lots of twenty-somethings in the US that would love to have a "real job." They can't get one, though, because employers aren't willing to pay minimum wage for the NEET jobs they could get a start in, mostly because the cost would run them out of business. Instead they have to hire illegal immigrants to do these jobs while staying in business, and hope none of the illegals are willing to risk deportation to get the employer in trouble for the sub-minimum wages being paid.

/eventually they get shut down and the employers arrested, because someone in the IRS notices something weird about the wages and employee counts
//the illegals go home to be relatively wealthy, and the rest of the US gets another lesson in what happens when you try to leave the plantation
///only the big businesses like Wal-Mart and FoxConn can stay in business, mostly by being able to move all their NEET jobs overseas
 
2014-04-16 10:22:50 AM  

SVenus: Farking Canuck: Yes. Let's get our science from a former weatherman who couldn't even finish an undergraduate degree. He's a better source for science than all those PhD's working and publishing in the field!

Please point us to a page where a PhD has posted current NOAA data on the Great Lakes-- unless they're too busy working and publishing in the field.


http://www.noaa.gov/
 
2014-04-16 10:23:20 AM  

Itstoearly: Well, that depends.  If the ice is all floating in water, then it melting will not raise water levels (since ice is less dense than water, and the the ice will displace an amount of water equal to its mass).

If the ice that is melting is sitting on land, then yes, it will raise water levels.


Sorry, but Al Gore has proven with his scientific experiment that ALL ice, both floating and on land, will raise sea levels.

/yes, his experiment only modeled the ice on land
//but he was right about that, and that automatically means he's right about everything
///whereas other scientific disciplines have no right to pretend they know anything about climatology, climatologists have the authority to be right about everything
 
2014-04-16 10:25:19 AM  
img2.wikia.nocookie.net

Haz de lahst laugh
 
2014-04-16 10:30:55 AM  

SVenus: Farking Canuck: Yes. Let's get our science from a former weatherman who couldn't even finish an undergraduate degree. He's a better source for science than all those PhD's working and publishing in the field!

Please point us to a page where a PhD has posted current NOAA data on the Great Lakes-- unless they're too busy working and publishing in the field.


Do you think this engineering drop-out collected or analyzed any of that data? Who do you think did all that work?

I will give him credit for pulling all of them together but he has been proven to intentionally distort the work of real scientists many times in the past. If I was to use any of the data he presents I would go to the actual sources, i.e. the aforementioned real scientists, and not take the chance that he has altered or otherwise misrepresented the data.

It is the only way to know you are not being manipulated by politically motivated, unqualified bloggers.
 
2014-04-16 10:34:22 AM  

Tatterdemalian: Itstoearly: Well, that depends.  If the ice is all floating in water, then it melting will not raise water levels (since ice is less dense than water, and the the ice will displace an amount of water equal to its mass).

If the ice that is melting is sitting on land, then yes, it will raise water levels.

Sorry, but Al Gore has proven with his scientific experiment that ALL ice, both floating and on land, will raise sea levels.

/yes, his experiment only modeled the ice on land
//but he was right about that, and that automatically means he's right about everything
///whereas other scientific disciplines have no right to pretend they know anything about climatology, climatologists have the authority to be right about everything


A simple experiment will demonstrate why Al "praise be upon him" Gore is right.  Take a glass of soda and ice. fill it right to the rim. (ice in the lake).  Set it in the hot summer sun.(warming).  Watch it overflow onto the table. (metaphor for humanity if we dot pay carbon tax.  Science is repeatable.
 
2014-04-16 10:35:03 AM  

Tatterdemalian: GORDON: I'm not going back to living in a tee-pee because the Earth's climate can't sustain billions and billions of people. If the smog overwhelms the cities, call the engineers to develop atmospheric scrubbers. If the oceans rise and flood out the coastal cities, call in the naval architects to build boats (big boats). If the fresh water reservoirs dry up because of droughts, call in the nuclear scientists to build desalinization plants. If the Earth jukes, humans should jive.

That is not sufficiently alarmist to get someone to pay you money for carbon credits or funding so you can "research" for a couple more years.  I suggest you try again if you don't want to have to go get a real job.

What's sad is that there are still lots of twenty-somethings in the US that would love to have a "real job." They can't get one, though, because employers aren't willing to pay minimum wage for the NEET jobs they could get a start in, mostly because the cost would run them out of business. Instead they have to hire illegal immigrants to do these jobs while staying in business, and hope none of the illegals are willing to risk deportation to get the employer in trouble for the sub-minimum wages being paid.

/eventually they get shut down and the employers arrested, because someone in the IRS notices something weird about the wages and employee counts
//the illegals go home to be relatively wealthy, and the rest of the US gets another lesson in what happens when you try to leave the plantation
///only the big businesses like Wal-Mart and FoxConn can stay in business, mostly by being able to move all their NEET jobs overseas


What in the Holy Hell are you talking about? What do illegal immigration and a pro-global warming stance have to do with each other?
 
2014-04-16 10:38:51 AM  

wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.


As a white man, I feel the name White Fish should be changed as to not make fun of my whiteness.
What a bunch of crap!
 
2014-04-16 10:39:44 AM  

calbert: "This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes


that's about what I came here to say, was in st. Joe last weekend and there was absolutely no ice
 
2014-04-16 10:42:47 AM  

Farking Canuck: Yes. Let's get our science from a former weatherman who couldn't even finish an undergraduate degree. He's a better source for science than all those PhD's working and publishing in the field!


Appeal to authority. Having letters after your name is not what determines whether or not you're a good source of information.

Besides, even if he did have those letters, you'd just say he is a known fraud; right?

We should stick to attacking the arguments, not the person.

In this case, it doesn't appear there is an argument. Just a data dump of graphs taken from NOAA. However, this particular graph referenced suggests to me that the media coverage for Great Lake ice this year is overblown. Evidently this happens ever year, some years to a far greater extent.
 
2014-04-16 10:43:35 AM  
What really burns me about the deniers is the evidence is so overwhelming.   Every single day since Edison invented gasoline 78 years ago:  somewhere in the word it was warmer than it was the day before.  You see if you look globally every day somewhere it was colder yesterday.  The science is painfully clear on this.
 
2014-04-16 10:47:52 AM  

Frozboz: SevenizGud: Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide

[img.fark.net image 500x341]


Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming.  If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase.  If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase.  If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.
 
2014-04-16 10:48:58 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: Edison invented gasoline 78 years ago


lol
 
2014-04-16 10:49:51 AM  

brantgoose: I doubt that this cold snap will alter the 37 year run of above base-line global average temperatures. It's just a blip in the regional, not the world, climate.



According to NOAA, the average temperature of the lower 48 states for the winter of 2013-14, was a mere 0.1 degree C under the hundred year average.

"...blip in the regional..." is entirely accurate.
 
2014-04-16 10:52:42 AM  

calbert: "This is what the Great Lakes looked like one week ago."

way to just make up sh*t to coax a greenlight subby.

the photo isn't captioned at all, and there's no mention anywhere in the article that that photo is from 'one week ago'.

srsly, how does one go through life just completely absent of any reading comprehension?

you don't just fill in the blanks with arbitrary info.


February 19, 2014, when ice covered 80.3 percent of the lakes


There's a link to the onion on the main page, are you starting to understand what fark is now?

i141.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-16 10:58:20 AM  
 
2014-04-16 11:03:18 AM  

Feepit: Appeal to authority. Having letters after your name is not what determines whether or not you're a good source of information.


The "Appeal to Authority" fallacy does not apply when the person or persons are the actual authority. It is only a logical fallacy when their position as an authority has not been established.

I take many measures to determine what authorities I will consider as likely valid. In a scientific field they include:

- must be educated in the field or have significant working experience in the field
- must be actively working in the field
- must be actively publishing in the major peer-reviewed journals for the field in question

Experience as a weatherman does not cut it in the field of climate science. Dropping out from a mechanical engineering program does not cut it in the field of climate science.

There is some wriggle room there but not a lot. Everyone has an opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion but most people's opinions are worth jack shiat when it comes to science. They do not and should not get equal consideration ... I do not care what their politics has to say about science.
 
2014-04-16 11:04:13 AM  

Farking Canuck: SVenus: Farking Canuck: Yes. Let's get our science from a former weatherman who couldn't even finish an undergraduate degree. He's a better source for science than all those PhD's working and publishing in the field!

Please point us to a page where a PhD has posted current NOAA data on the Great Lakes-- unless they're too busy working and publishing in the field.

Do you think this engineering drop-out collected or analyzed any of that data? Who do you think did all that work?

I will give him credit for pulling all of them together but he has been proven to intentionally distort the work of real scientists many times in the past. If I was to use any of the data he presents I would go to the actual sources, i.e. the aforementioned real scientists, and not take the chance that he has altered or otherwise misrepresented the data.

It is the only way to know you are not being manipulated by politically motivated, unqualified bloggers.


Steve Jobs and Bill gates also dropped out of college (a similarly irrelevant fact). Lack of a completed degree is no rational criterion for dismissing an argument.  It is also a logical fallacy.
 
2014-04-16 11:05:08 AM  

Itstoearly: ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.

Well, that depends.  If the ice is all floating in water, then it melting will not raise water levels (since ice is less dense than water, and the the ice will displace an amount of water equal to its mass).

If the ice that is melting is sitting on land, then yes, it will raise water levels.


Most of Michigan's snow is of the lake effect variety, which derived from moisture stolen from the lake. That snow is nearly a zero-sum game.
 
2014-04-16 11:08:44 AM  

I.P.Daily: wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.

As a white man, I feel the name White Fish should be changed as to not make fun of my whiteness.
What a bunch of crap

carp!

FTFY
 
2014-04-16 11:13:23 AM  

Farking Canuck: The "Appeal to Authority" fallacy does not apply when the person or persons are the actual authority. It is only a logical fallacy when their position as an authority has not been established.

I take many measures to determine what authorities I will consider as likely valid. In a scientific field they include:

- must be educated in the field or have significant working experience in the field
- must be actively working in the field
- must be actively publishing in the major peer-reviewed journals for the field in question

Experience as a weatherman does not cut it in the field of climate science. Dropping out from a mechanical engineering program does not cut it in the field of climate science.

There is some wriggle room there but not a lot. Everyone has an opinion, everyone is entitled to their opinion but most people's opinions are worth jack shiat when it comes to science. They do not and should not get equal consideration ... I do not care what their politics has to say about science.


Appeal to authority applies to the statement I quoted, where you were talking about letters after a name and having a career in a given field. Letters after a name can be obtained from a diploma mill and a career be as loosely defined as posting tripe on a topic to a blog. However, it is nice to see that you further qualified your criteria for authority such that it better avoids the fallacy.
 
2014-04-16 11:15:39 AM  

nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.


You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.
 
2014-04-16 11:20:21 AM  

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.


See that's the kind of crap I am talking about.  Deniers always use satellites in geosynchronous orbits.  You cant measure global events with a geo thermometer.  Real scientists use global positioning satellites to measure global temperature. People are so dumb.
 
2014-04-16 11:24:27 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: A simple experiment will demonstrate why Al "praise be upon him" Gore is right.  Take a glass of soda and ice. fill it right to the rim. (ice in the lake).  Set it in the hot summer sun.(warming).  Watch it overflow onto the table. (metaphor for humanity if we dot pay carbon tax.  Science is repeatable.


Notsureiftrolling.  If not, you might want to reword that.

(hint:  water expands when it freezes)
 
2014-04-16 11:24:55 AM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: I believe, now gimme the grant money.


Explain to me how you think this "grant money" scam works. While you're at it, show me how climate scientists are getting rich off this grant money while the honest oil company execs are just trying to protect us from being scammed.

Thousands of people are willing to lie to the world for decades for grant money in a single scientific field. I remember when I went to college everyone was talking about how they weren't going to become stockbrokers, or doctors, or lawyers, because all the real money was in climate science.

All the really greedy people in the world decided to go into climate science so they could make a killing in grant money. They've been at it well over a decade now, and yet not a single one of them have retired to their own private island because the grant money is just too sweet to give up. Don't believe me? Look at all the climate scientists on Forbes 500 richest list.
 
2014-04-16 11:28:46 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Steve Jobs and Bill gates also dropped out of college (a similarly irrelevant fact). Lack of a completed degree is no rational criterion for dismissing an argument. It is also a logical fallacy.


Feepit: Appeal to authority applies to the statement I quoted, where you were talking about letters after a name and having a career in a given field. Letters after a name can be obtained from a diploma mill and a career be as loosely defined as posting tripe on a topic to a blog. However, it is nice to see that you further qualified your criteria for authority such that it better avoids the fallacy.


It is not just his lack of credentials on the subject. I already mentioned his proven history of distorting and/or intentionally misrepresenting data. He has demonstrated an inability to understand the science or he is intentionally distorting the science for political reasons. Either way, his history has proven beyond a doubt that he is not someone who's opinions on this subject are worth even considering.

The fact is that credentials do matter when considering opinions on a scientific field. There is a minimum level of education and experience needed to be able to form an opinion worthy of consideration. The opinions of Joe Sixpack do not meet this minimum.

Additionally, since his opinions are in direct contradiction to the working, publishing, highly educated in this field scientists, his credentials are very relevant to how much credit I give anything he says on the subject.

In the end, he is a proven liar. Forgive me if I no longer give any credence to anything he says on the subject.
 
2014-04-16 11:31:55 AM  

Skr: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

Vacationed through the Upper Penni of Michigan a few times. The trips were an excellent way for me to start hating Gordon Lightfoot. That stuff gets milked dry in gift shops.

The small bleep of 60-80 degree weather last week was the ticket to breaking up some of the water feeding Superior. 'Course winter decided to biatch slap the area again this week

Ice breaking up at Gooseberry Falls, Lake Superior


Nice. Thanks for that.
 
2014-04-16 11:36:56 AM  

FLMountainMan: bigsteve3OOO: A simple experiment will demonstrate why Al "praise be upon him" Gore is right.  Take a glass of soda and ice. fill it right to the rim. (ice in the lake).  Set it in the hot summer sun.(warming).  Watch it overflow onto the table. (metaphor for humanity if we dot pay carbon tax.  Science is repeatable.

Notsureiftrolling.  If not, you might want to reword that.

(hint:  water expands when it freezes)


Floating ice displaces its exact mass in liquid water. This means that the level of the water does not change because of the ice melting.

There can be a level change due to a temperature change in the liquid water or a change in salinity of the water ... but these are different effects not directly related to ice melting.
 
2014-04-16 11:38:01 AM  

Farking Canuck: Forgive me if I no longer give any credence to anything he says on the subject.


In this particular case, he didn't have anything to say. The page was just to a data dump of graphs that directly hot-linked to NOAA.
 
2014-04-16 11:39:08 AM  
If you deniers need any other evidence.  Dont believe scientist  believe mother nature.  If the globe wasnt getting warmer why are there no penguins in the north pole?  Those poor bastards are all gone thanks to your western co2 lifestyle.  Like a pidgin in a coal mine; they were the first to go.  We need to wake up.
 
2014-04-16 11:41:44 AM  

I.P.Daily: wesmon: aNihilV10L8tr: Asian carp is a more dangerous threat to the great lakes than the water staying cold a few weeks longer than average .

That's racist.

http://frenchtribune.com/teneur/1422126-lawmakers-considering-name-c ha nge-asian-carp-minnesota

The new, agreed upon name is invasive carp.

As a white man, I feel the name White Fish should be changed as to not make fun of my whiteness.
What a bunch of crap!


this! although after that long sunless winter i am unbelievably white, kind of like a fish.  DOH!
 
2014-04-16 11:41:56 AM  
Something tells me everything will be fine. Mother Nature is a pretty resilient biatch.
 
2014-04-16 11:43:16 AM  

Farking Canuck: FLMountainMan: bigsteve3OOO: A simple experiment will demonstrate why Al "praise be upon him" Gore is right.  Take a glass of soda and ice. fill it right to the rim. (ice in the lake).  Set it in the hot summer sun.(warming).  Watch it overflow onto the table. (metaphor for humanity if we dot pay carbon tax.  Science is repeatable.

Notsureiftrolling.  If not, you might want to reword that.

(hint:  water expands when it freezes)

Floating ice displaces its exact mass in liquid water. This means that the level of the water does not change because of the ice melting.

There can be a level change due to a temperature change in the liquid water or a change in salinity of the water ... but these are different effects not directly related to ice melting.


The ice has a higher albedo and both reflects the winter sunlight and prevents the evaporation from the comparatively darker open water. It also can support loads of snow. So a total freeze up does as much to prevent evaporation as much as adding to the levels.

I was down at the shore yesterday and Lake Ontario is up a bit already. It "crests", so to speak, in late May/early June. What would be nice is if Michigan and Huron could halt or reverse their severe water losses of the last few years.

www.thestar.com
 
2014-04-16 11:44:39 AM  

bigsteve3OOO: If you deniers need any other evidence.  Dont believe scientist  believe mother nature.  If the globe wasnt getting warmer why are there no penguins in the north pole?  Those poor bastards are all gone thanks to your western co2 lifestyle.  Like a pidgin in a coal mine; they were the first to go.  We need to wake up.


I don't know what your game is, but I find your bastardization of sayings amusing. :)
 
2014-04-16 11:45:02 AM  

Feepit: In this particular case, he didn't have anything to say. The page was just to a data dump of graphs that directly hot-linked to NOAA.


Yes. And I already said:

Farking Canuck: I will give him credit for pulling all of them together


But I went on to explain that I would recommend going directly to the sources of his graphs to ensure you get undistorted versions.
 
2014-04-16 11:51:38 AM  

squirrelflavoredyogurt: Whatchoo Talkinbout: I believe, now gimme the grant money.

Explain to me how you think this "grant money" scam works. While you're at it, show me how climate scientists are getting rich off this grant money while the honest oil company execs are just trying to protect us from being scammed.

Thousands of people are willing to lie to the world for decades for grant money in a single scientific field. I remember when I went to college everyone was talking about how they weren't going to become stockbrokers, or doctors, or lawyers, because all the real money was in climate science.

All the really greedy people in the world decided to go into climate science so they could make a killing in grant money. They've been at it well over a decade now, and yet not a single one of them have retired to their own private island because the grant money is just too sweet to give up. Don't believe me? Look at all the climate scientists on Forbes 500 richest list.


I'll be the first, gimme.
 
2014-04-16 11:52:38 AM  
Meh, if this goes through they wont have to worry about the lakes icing over again. Cant believe Canada would do something so evil. You used to be cool Cananda

i26.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-16 11:52:45 AM  

Farking Canuck: Tricky Chicken: Steve Jobs and Bill gates also dropped out of college (a similarly irrelevant fact). Lack of a completed degree is no rational criterion for dismissing an argument. It is also a logical fallacy.

Feepit: Appeal to authority applies to the statement I quoted, where you were talking about letters after a name and having a career in a given field. Letters after a name can be obtained from a diploma mill and a career be as loosely defined as posting tripe on a topic to a blog. However, it is nice to see that you further qualified your criteria for authority such that it better avoids the fallacy.

It is not just his lack of credentials on the subject. I already mentioned his proven history of distorting and/or intentionally misrepresenting data. He has demonstrated an inability to understand the science or he is intentionally distorting the science for political reasons. Either way, his history has proven beyond a doubt that he is not someone who's opinions on this subject are worth even considering.Ad hominim attack not addressing argument If an insane person says the earth is round, his insanity has no standing in regard to his argument.

The fact is that credentials do matter when considering opinions on a scientific field. There is a minimum level of education and experience needed to be able to form an opinion worthy of consideration.Appeal to authority. The opinions of Joe Sixpack do not meet this minimum.

Additionally, since his opinions are in direct contradiction to the working, publishing, highly educated in this field scientists appeal to authority, his credentials are very relevant to how much credit I give anything he says on the subject.

In the end, he is a proven liar.ad hominem again Forgive me if I no longer give any credence to anything he says on the subject.


Some fallacies highlighted for you.
 
2014-04-16 11:57:40 AM  
Global warming is clearly false.  Every autumn it gets cold.  Without fail, October is always colder than August.  How can it be getting warmer and cooler simultaneously?!  The logic is incontrovertible!
 
2014-04-16 12:00:39 PM  

Itstoearly: ghostfacekillahrabbit: There was an anti-climate change letter published in the Milwaukee paper today, on the shore of Lake Michigan that claimed that melting ice can't raise water levels.

Well, that depends.  If the ice is all floating in water, then it melting will not raise water levels (since ice is less dense than water, and the the ice will displace an amount of water equal to its mass).

If the ice that is melting is sitting on land, then yes, it will raise water levels.


Thank you. This is an important distinction to make.

/unfortunately, that means the letter writer is technically correct
//the best kind of correct
 
2014-04-16 12:17:58 PM  

phaseolus: ski9600: They are owned by Japanese, Koreans and European companies though.

I think Arcelor Mittal (Luxembourg, technically, but owned by an Indian living in England) owns most of the old Inland Steel and LTV/J&L/YS&T mills up there, now.

Onkel Buck: Site for freighter watchers boatnerd.com

I read that site's news page every day. Couple years ago when ex-wife kicked me out and I got a new place to live, I saw a big ol' boat1 tied up a couple blocks away and thought "holy shiat, that thing's kinda cool"... and that's how it all started.

1. It was the St. Mary's Challenger. RIP...


Haha me too. I was in SW Michigan one day, saw this big monstrosity called "Manistee" come into the harbor. I had no idea what it was at the time, but later found out that they still ship shiat on the Great Lakes, and it was bringing road salt in. Fast forward 5 years...full-fledged boatnerd.
 
2014-04-16 12:30:29 PM  

Yes this is dog: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

I think playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is close enough to being an all day Gordon Lightfoot day in and of itself.

/long ass song


Edmund fits Gerald?
 
2014-04-16 12:34:47 PM  
Look on the bright side: no more stories about how the river level is so low the barges can't get to New Orleans.
 
2014-04-16 12:56:06 PM  

thecpt: A great article about CLIMATE CHANGE. Let goddamn Fox News use global warming incorrectly farkers.

Great article


Eh, why not?  Msnbc does.  Might as well let 'em cancel each other out.
 
2014-04-16 01:00:22 PM  
karmachameleon
2014-04-16 06:41:47 AM

FloridaFarkTag: Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change

You know how young-Earth creationists and anti-vaxxers sound completely and utterly stupid to all other rational people? Yeah...welcome to the list.

Ad hominem. For all fark occasions when you can't address the facts.
 
2014-04-16 01:04:25 PM  
brantgoose [TotalFark]

...I doubt that this cold snap will alter the 37 year run of above base-line global average temperatures. It's just a blip in the regional, not the world, climate.

As Stéphane Mallarmé put it, a throw of the dice will never abolish chance. Weather does not refute climate, nor does regional climate nor natural variation refute the anthropogenic effect...
Yet every time there's a record high, we have bad-meteorologists posting pictures of the Earth on fire and fark pundits claiming those single events prove their religion is correct.
 
2014-04-16 01:10:10 PM  
Just remember, Halifax harbor is ice free, 365 days a year, send everything there! Problem solved.
 
2014-04-16 01:14:20 PM  

FloridaFarkTag: wesmon: Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.

You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.

Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change


Actually, the term "Climate Change" was used in the 1970's, long before the press grabbed hold of the "Global Warming" moniker.

Know your history.
 
2014-04-16 01:20:27 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Some fallacies highlighted for you.


Your claims of ad hominem:
- I am not attempting to counter his arguments with personal attacks (the ad hominem fallacy). I am ignoring his arguments because of a history of dishonesty. This is similar to how someone should not leave their children with a proven child molester ... that would also not be an ad hominem attack.
- The arguments that earned him this ignore status were proven to be lies with evidence ... not with fallacies.

Your claims of appeal to authority:
- as stated above, this is only a fallacy when the authority has not been established as such. Otherwise no evidence could ever be considered because it all comes from "authorities".
- again, it a scientific field, there is far too much information and education needed to form truly informed opinions that it is beyond the vast majority of people ... even for scientists from unrelated fields. Obviously this is a sliding scale depending on how deep into the field you are debating.

I have a degree in chemical engineering, I have worked over 20 years in a materials research facility (8+ years as a researcher with 10 patents), and I am fairly well read on the topic of AGW. That said, I would not remotely consider myself an authority on the subject.

In science education matters, experience matters, level of familiarity with current events in the field matter. News reporters, politicians and 99.9% of bloggers do not have these things. Get your science from the scientists currently working and publishing in the field.
 
2014-04-16 01:30:22 PM  

OnlyM3: Yet every time there's a record high, we have bad-meteorologists posting pictures of the Earth on fire and fark pundits claiming those single events prove their religion is correct.



Looking at a wildfire I'm reminded of what the Buddha taught about letting go of attachments, so ... you're actually kind of right about something for a change.
 
2014-04-16 01:33:15 PM  

Farking Canuck: Tricky Chicken: Some fallacies highlighted for you.

Your claims of ad hominem:
- I am not attempting to counter his arguments with personal attacks (the ad hominem fallacy). I am ignoring his arguments because of a history of dishonesty. This is similar to how someone should not leave their children with a proven child molester ... that would also not be an ad hominem attack.
- The arguments that earned him this ignore status were proven to be lies with evidence ... not with fallacies.

Your claims of appeal to authority:
- as stated above, this is only a fallacy when the authority has not been established as such. Otherwise no evidence could ever be considered because it all comes from "authorities".
- again, it a scientific field, there is far too much information and education needed to form truly informed opinions that it is beyond the vast majority of people ... even for scientists from unrelated fields. Obviously this is a sliding scale depending on how deep into the field you are debating.

I have a degree in chemical engineering, I have worked over 20 years in a materials research facility (8+ years as a researcher with 10 patents), and I am fairly well read on the topic of AGW. That said, I would not remotely consider myself an authority on the subject.

In science education matters, experience matters, level of familiarity with current events in the field matter. News reporters, politicians and 99.9% of bloggers do not have these things. Get your science from the scientists currently working and publishing in the field.


And yet to this point, you have continued to avoid any mention of what his argument was.  You have focused solely on the person and nothing on the argument.

It would suffice to narrow your retore to the arguments of XXX have been soundly refuted by YYY.
 
2014-04-16 01:40:33 PM  

OnlyM3: karmachameleon
2014-04-16 06:41:47 AM

FloridaFarkTag: Global Warming Derp...calling Al Gore...need more Hockey Stick....oh wait...it's now Climate Change

You know how young-Earth creationists and anti-vaxxers sound completely and utterly stupid to all other rational people? Yeah...welcome to the list.
Ad hominem. For all fark occasions when you can't address the facts.


I don't want to nitpick too much, but this really isn't Ad hominem as no actual argument was presented in the first place - it's more trading insults than anything. If you want a better example, where someone attacks the people involved instead of the actual argument presented, you could look here:

OnlyM3: brantgoose [TotalFark]

...I doubt that this cold snap will alter the 37 year run of above base-line global average temperatures. It's just a blip in the regional, not the world, climate.

As Stéphane Mallarmé put it, a throw of the dice will never abolish chance. Weather does not refute climate, nor does regional climate nor natural variation refute the anthropogenic effect...

Yet every time there's a record high, we have bad-meteorologists posting pictures of the Earth on fire and fark pundits claiming those single events prove their religion is correct.

 
2014-04-16 01:42:27 PM  

Tricky Chicken: And yet to this point, you have continued to avoid any mention of what his argument was. You have focused solely on the person and nothing on the argument.

It would suffice to narrow your retore to the arguments of XXX have been soundly refuted by YYY.


I believe that we have already established, several times, that he was not making an argument.

I have not tried to refute any arguments. I've even pointed out where I applauded him for gathering all the data into one place.

I have been pointing out to those unfamiliar with this blogger, that he does not have any credentials in the field and that he has a history of dishonesty on the AGW subject. And, with that in consideration, they should go to the source for any scientific data to ensure that any graphs, maps, or other data they use is the unadulterated original.

This is good advice any time you wish to use scientific data but it is especially important when the site you found it on has a history of misrepresentation.
 
2014-04-16 01:53:24 PM  

UNC_Samurai: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

Maybe not all day.  At least until sundown.


I was going to suggest that! It's almost as if you could read my mind.
 
2014-04-16 02:16:17 PM  

some_beer_drinker: because it's still frozen, and holding up commerce? have a nice steaming cup of shut the fark up. thanks


Or, y'know, because it might affect the entire ecosystem, but yeah, all about the commerce...

/Climate change isn't easily reversible because it's a snowball effect. One minor issue turns into ten major ones in a few years.
//thank you so farking much, America, for Bush over Gore.
 
2014-04-16 02:18:29 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald " is played on the Classic Rock stations.


Do not fark with The Wreck.  Yes, it has a few places where the meter is off.  Still a goddamn great song.

/Why, yes, I do play a 12 string, why do you ask?
 
2014-04-16 02:19:28 PM  

FarkinCubsFan: boatnerd.com


FarkinCubsFan: phaseolus: ski9600: They are owned by Japanese, Koreans and European companies though.

I think Arcelor Mittal (Luxembourg, technically, but owned by an Indian living in England) owns most of the old Inland Steel and LTV/J&L/YS&T mills up there, now.

Onkel Buck: Site for freighter watchers boatnerd.com

I read that site's news page every day. Couple years ago when ex-wife kicked me out and I got a new place to live, I saw a big ol' boat1 tied up a couple blocks away and thought "holy shiat, that thing's kinda cool"... and that's how it all started.

1. It was the St. Mary's Challenger. RIP...

Haha me too. I was in SW Michigan one day, saw this big monstrosity called "Manistee" come into the harbor. I had no idea what it was at the time, but later found out that they still ship shiat on the Great Lakes, and it was bringing road salt in. Fast forward 5 years...full-fledged boatnerd.


Thanks for link, that is a sweet site.
Grew up around the lakes, grand dad worked for Ford on the lake freighters in the 1920's before moving to the car plants.  Always loved watching the freighters go through the locks.
 
2014-04-16 03:01:48 PM  

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.


Tell us how those satellite readings worked 50 years ago.
 
2014-04-16 03:08:55 PM  

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.


NOTSUREIFSERIOUS.

Are you seriously asserting that the Global  LAND Temperature Anomaly value (the graph posted) would not be affected by banning A/C units and painting asphalt white?  In the experiment I cited regarding the Peruvian mountains (andes?), they proved that whitewashing a mountainside reduced the land surface temperature by ~30 degrees.  30 farking degrees.  That's a lot.  Asphalt land surface temp readings generally are 15-20 degrees above grass readings.

If you're asserting that the satellite temperature data reading (which actually, is not a "temperature" reading but rather a wavelength radiance reading and then a group of mathematicians extrapolate a temperature profile from the wavelength radiance readings and that every distinct group of mathematicians that analyzed the wavelength radiance readings created a distinct temperature profile group, and they didn't agree on a particular one) wouldn't be affected by land surface temperature, then I'm sure you're completely insane.

Painting everything white would reduce land temperature and reducing land surface temperature should be reflected in satellite wavelength readings.  Needing to explain this makes it feel like amateur hour.

And you need to consider what you're trying to prove.  Satellites have only existed since roughly the 1950s. So at MOST you're only looking at 60 years worth of data.  If you're attempting to prove that "satellite inferred temperature readings have increased since the 1950s", then that's fine.

It's also an accurate statement to say the land surface temperature readings have increased since 1973 (or whatever graph he showed).  That's fine.

But understanding  why data is trending in a certain manner and drawing conclusions from the presented facts is an entirely different ballgame.  Most of the "global warming" topics and articles are sensationalism at its finest.  And I'm not a "denier".  I'm not denying that the temperature readings are actually increasing.  I may be denying the wharggbl conclusions drawn from the data, however.
 
2014-04-16 03:12:19 PM  

nickerj1: Painting everything white would reduce land temperature and reducing land surface temperature should be reflected in satellite wavelength readings.  Needing to explain this makes it feel like amateur hour.


Painting everything white would also knock us out of orbit!!! How do you think we plan to deflect asteroids?
 
2014-04-16 03:25:42 PM  

leevis: Weatherkiss: phaseolus: Shipments of iron ore from the northern reaches of Minnesota were so low that the U.S. Steel plant in Gary, Indiana had to scale back production significantly in early April.

America still has a steel industry? And that there's actually still a steel plant in Gary, Indiana? That's bigger news to me than water being frozen.

We have quite a few steel mills in NW Indiana. My company does a lot of work for them.


My company does a lot of reporting on them.
 
2014-04-16 03:30:38 PM  

Deep Contact: Tell us how those satellite readings worked 50 years ago.


So what you are suggesting is that, before satellites were making measurements, the data was all skewed by asphalt and local heat sources. But, after the satellites, went up these things suddenly don't influence the numbers anymore?

Maybe you should read up on concepts like: relative measurements and trends. The fact is, from a climate change point of view, the absolute numbers are irrelevant ... it is the change year-over-ear, decade-over-decade that matters. So unless they were out there re-paving with blacker and blacker asphalt every year then the asphalt doesn't matter. Same for the air-conditioners - unless they were putting out more heat every year the trend lines should be flat.
 
2014-04-16 03:31:31 PM  

nickerj1: Farking Canuck: nickerj1: Herper Derper Do

You mean the temperature monitoring station that has had 3 A/C exhaust vents, an asphalt parking lot, and a cell tower installed directly adjacent to it since 1973 has increased in temperature by 1 degree ?!!?!?!

90%+ of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <30 meters away.
70% of all temp monitoring surface stations have an artificial heat source <10 meters away.

Whether you care about artificial heat sources may affect how you view global warming. If you pave the entire earth in black asphalt, the temperature of the earth will increase. If you constantly have wireless transmissions every which way, the temp will increase. If you continue to have every building on earth set to 70 degree A/C, the temperature will increase.

One thing we could do to stop global warming, or rather user temperature perception, is to ban air conditioners and use white asphalt.

You've just proven all the scientists wrong. Please go wait by your mailbox ... your Nobel prize should arrive any day now. They are just waiting for you to submit your evidence that shows how the asphalt and A/C units were able to affect all the satellite readings.

NOTSUREIFSERIOUS.

Are you seriously asserting that the Global  LAND Temperature Anomaly value (the graph posted) would not be affected by banning A/C units and painting asphalt white?  In the experiment I cited regarding the Peruvian mountains (andes?), they proved that whitewashing a mountainside reduced the land surface temperature by ~30 degrees.  30 farking degrees.  That's a lot.  Asphalt land surface temp readings generally are 15-20 degrees above grass readings.

If you're asserting that the satellite temperature data reading (which actually, is not a "temperature" reading but rather a wavelength radiance reading and then a group of mathematicians extrapolate a temperature profile from the wavelength radiance readings and that every distinct group of mathematic ...



I'd rather see parking lots that looked like this:
www.loe.org

...instead on being painted white.
I'm not sure what effect it would have on overall temperature around the lot, but it would keep my car from heating up as much.
 
2014-04-16 03:40:07 PM  

astroman05: UNC_Samurai: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

Maybe not all day.  At least until sundown.

I vote Edmund Fitzgerald all day.

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 320x240]

/hot


That shiat is disgusting.
 
2014-04-16 04:13:10 PM  

PsiChick: Or, y'know, because it might affect the entire ecosystem, but yeah, all about the commerce...


Do you have a problem with The Economy? Because let me tell you, The Economy is the only thing standing between you and a cold death in a cave. The most important thing in the world is The Economy. It keeps us warm, it gives us things, and it is the giant engine on which this planet runs. You may have learned something about this Biology stuff in school, but don't be fooled--what is more important, money or a blade of grass? I rest my case.
 
2014-04-16 04:30:35 PM  

ChrisDe: Good Lakes or Great Lakes?


Great Lakes or Greatest Lakes?
 
2014-04-16 07:16:53 PM  

Nytfall: Yes this is dog: some_beer_drinker: Darth_Lukecash: Unfortunately, it will not reduce the number of times "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald  " is played on the Classic Rock stations.

why on earth would you want to reduce that? they should have all day gordon lightfoot days.

I think playing "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is close enough to being an all day Gordon Lightfoot day in and of itself.

/long ass song

Edmund fits Gerald?


Or The Rectum of Ella Fitzgerald?


There's a place we all know where the foulest winds blow,
From a shotgun that's just single-barreled,
It's wrinkled and brown, three feet from the ground,
The rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.

The legend lives on from Harlem on down
Of the arse on this musical strumpet
This bum, it is said, could reek like the dead,
A note-perfect black trouser trumpet.

With a load of legumes four heavy pounds more,
Than Ella Fitzgerald weighed empty.
That singer's kazoo was a bone to be chewed,
Then the "Gales of Fitzgerald" came early.

With a three-octave range, her chute rumbled strange,
Adept at all kinds of scat-singing,
Just feed her some beans, and you'd know what it means,
To set the band's eardrums to ringing.

Count Basie, it's claimed, was driven insane,
And Ellington felt quite imperilled,
A wee bit of bloat would pour forth the long note,
From the rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.

Ken Burns will not tell of the horrible smell,
The blue flame and the stink it would herald,
Whether live or on tapes, beware when it gapes,
The rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.

There's a place we all know where the foulest winds blow,
From a shotgun that's just single-barreled,
It's wrinkled and brown, three feet from the ground,
The rectum of Ella Fitzgerald.
 
2014-04-16 07:31:37 PM  

cryinoutloud: PsiChick: Or, y'know, because it might affect the entire ecosystem, but yeah, all about the commerce...

Do you have a problem with The Economy? Because let me tell you, The Economy is the only thing standing between you and a cold death in a cave. The most important thing in the world is The Economy. It keeps us warm, it gives us things, and it is the giant engine on which this planet runs. You may have learned something about this Biology stuff in school, but don't be fooled--what is more important, money or a blade of grass? I rest my case.


Without multiple blades of grass and other life providing you oxygen to survive, you, and your money wouldn't be here. At all.

Now STFU.
 
2014-04-16 07:51:36 PM  

Farking Canuck: Deep Contact: Tell us how those satellite readings worked 50 years ago.

So what you are suggesting is that, before satellites were making measurements, the data was all skewed by asphalt and local heat sources. But, after the satellites, went up these things suddenly don't influence the numbers anymore?

Maybe you should read up on concepts like: relative measurements and trends. The fact is, from a climate change point of view, the absolute numbers are irrelevant ... it is the change year-over-ear, decade-over-decade that matters. So unless they were out there re-paving with blacker and blacker asphalt every year then the asphalt doesn't matter. Same for the air-conditioners - unless they were putting out more heat every year the trend lines should be flat.


What?  Are you arguing that the number of cell towers, the total square mileage of pavement, and the total amount of air conditioners (really the total joules expelled as heat from A/Cs) since 1970 has been static?

 The proportion of all American homes with air-conditioning grew from 12 percent in 1960 to over 60 percent in 1987. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Housing.html

With a quick googling, it's currently at 87%.

The same with impermeable/impervious surfaces.  I can't find great cites, but here's a localized study of Mobile AL from 1990 til now.   http://www.usouthal.edu/geography/fearn/480page/2007/AmandaBotts.pdf
It's increased 101%.  That's in backwater Mobile AL and only from 1990 til now.  I can only imagine the % increase from 1970 to date.

The cell tower increase from 1973 to date is close to infinity percent.  I'm going to take judicial notice on that one, because cell towers were virtually non existent prior at that date.
 
2014-04-16 07:56:11 PM  
start spraying aerosol.

/didnt read article
//or previous comments
 
2014-04-16 08:35:56 PM  

doyner: [i1.kym-cdn.com image 500x260]


Well at least you're not actively spreading jackassery and disinformation unlike the "I thought we were worried about global warming harharher" derping morons.
 
2014-04-16 08:37:34 PM  

Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.


Previous post? Meet exhibit A(sshole)
 
2014-04-16 08:39:52 PM  

SevenizGud: Yeah, but this is just one part of the world. It doesn't indicate that temperatures are not going up worldwide on average. Just take a look at this graph of the last 200 months from the, you know, scientific data gathering units worldwide:

[www.woodfortrees.org image 640x480]

Errrrrmm, what I meant to say was that this ice doesn't mean that we're seeing historic loss of ice worldwide. I mean, if you look at global sea ice anomaly, for example, then you see this:

[arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu image 512x412]

Uhm, what I was trying to say is, errrmmm, durrrrrp herrrrrrrppppp the sky is falling. The sky is falling.


And Exhibit B(all Licker)

Notice how your data only goes back 30 years, which meteorologically is equivalent to about 5 minutes.
 
2014-04-16 08:49:14 PM  

some_beer_drinker: because it's still frozen, and holding up commerce? have a nice steaming cup of shut the fark up. thanks


Also because fish and ducks are dying.  Hope you poured enough shut the fark up for yourself.
 
2014-04-16 08:58:00 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Notice how your data only goes back 30 years, which meteorologically is equivalent to about 5 minutes.


No steak in the argument, but 30 years is still 30 years.
[ie your comment is a stupid non sequitur]

Exhibit C: Insane Troll Logic.
 
2014-04-16 09:41:31 PM  

wesmon: Friction8r: This does not correlate well with spasmodic assertions of global warming I mean climate change. Therefore this thread will not draw the FECKLESS crowd and is thus rendered irrelevant.

You wear your stupidity like a badge I see.

Climate change doesn't just mean warmer everywhere all the time. But don't let the science get in the way of your blind assertions.


Indeed.  Climate change seems to mean warmer somewhere other than where you are.
 
2014-04-16 10:56:45 PM  

nickerj1: What? Are you arguing that the number of cell towers, the total square mileage of pavement, and the total amount of air conditioners (really the total joules expelled as heat from A/Cs) since 1970 has been static?


WTF?!? The standard denier argument is not talking about the total number of air conditioners in homes nor is it talking about total area of asphalt.

The long debunked and quite out-of-date (i.e. most deniers have abandoned it) talking point is about mechanical equipment and black asphalt directly near the land based weather stations. They claim that these are direct sources of heat near the temperature measurement (completely ignoring or being ignorant of the fact that this would not affect the direction or magnitude of the long term trends being monitored).

Your response is a complete non-sequitur.
 
2014-04-16 11:55:17 PM  
fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net
 
2014-04-17 12:01:21 AM  
You people are blooming idiots.  Climate is not something measured year by year but over eons.  we are well within what has been considered normal on this planet.  Simple to see if you don't have a totalitarian impulse to control the lives of others.hot-topic.co.nz
 
2014-04-17 01:44:26 AM  

smitton: You people are blooming idiots.  Climate is not something measured year by year but over eons.  we are well within what has been considered normal on this planet.  Simple to see if you don't have a totalitarian impulse to control the lives of others.[hot-topic.co.nz image 480x184]


I remember  that old chestnut. Be aware that it represents only one geographical location, and "present temperature" corresponds to 1855. Yes, that's right, 1855. The temperature over the Holocene (together with the modern instrumental record) looks more like this:

img.fark.net


What you considered "simple to see", was, in fact, wrong.  In essence, you have been lied to, and for whatever reason, you fell for it.This should trigger some basic questions -you should be asking yourself is whether your ideological leanings are getting in the way of critical thinking.
 
2014-04-17 01:44:42 AM  
Ore wa bake dewa nai. Tensai desu.
 
2014-04-17 08:38:47 AM  

Farking Canuck: nickerj1: What? Are you arguing that the number of cell towers, the total square mileage of pavement, and the total amount of air conditioners (really the total joules expelled as heat from A/Cs) since 1970 has been static?

WTF?!? The standard denier argument is not talking about the total number of air conditioners in homes nor is it talking about total area of asphalt.

The long debunked and quite out-of-date (i.e. most deniers have abandoned it) talking point is about mechanical equipment and black asphalt directly near the land based weather stations. They claim that these are direct sources of heat near the temperature measurement (completely ignoring or being ignorant of the fact that this would not affect the direction or magnitude of the long term trends being monitored).

Your response is a complete non-sequitur.


The way that is worded, it seems like you are dismissing what he is saying simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of some "standard denier argument."
 
2014-04-17 08:47:09 AM  

Feepit: Farking Canuck: Your response is a complete non-sequitur.

The way that is worded, it seems like you are dismissing what he is saying simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of some "standard denier argument."


Yes. Because my response was to the "standard denier argument". All of his counter-points were to arguments I did not make.

A analogy would be if I was discussing electric cars with someone and a third party jumps in with a counter-argument about trains. Whether or not what he says is correct, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
 
2014-04-17 12:19:14 PM  

Farking Canuck: Feepit: Farking Canuck: Your response is a complete non-sequitur.

The way that is worded, it seems like you are dismissing what he is saying simply because it doesn't fit into the mold of some "standard denier argument."

Yes. Because my response was to the "standard denier argument". All of his counter-points were to arguments I did not make.

A analogy would be if I was discussing electric cars with someone and a third party jumps in with a counter-argument about trains. Whether or not what he says is correct, it has nothing to do with the argument at hand.


I don't think any of them have actually responded to the argument your were making, including the guy you're responding to. You basically said "Yeah, it's great that Watt put it all together like that, but it's better to go right to the source, especially when you're trying to use a known liar as a source."

Everyone jumped on your accurate dismissal of Watt as an authority, and pretended everything else didn't exist.
 
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