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(Slate)   Unhappy that some college just rejected you because your SATs and high school grades weren't too good? There's actually a reason why these criteria are used   (slate.com) divider line 68
    More: Obvious, high schools, High IQ, SAT scores, empirical science, test prep, colleges, individual differences, Howard Gardner  
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9975 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2014 at 1:51 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-15 01:43:43 PM  
The SAT may be the bane of upper-middle-class parents trying to launch their children on a path to success. But sometimes one person's obstacle is another person's springboard. I am the daughter of a single, immigrant father who never attended college, and a good SAT score was one of the achievements that catapulted me into my state's flagship university and, from there, on to medical school. Flawed though it is, the SAT afforded me, as it has thousands of others, a way to prove that a poor, public-school kid who never had any test prep can do just as well as, if not better than, her better-off peers.

Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.
 
2014-04-15 01:54:01 PM  
Subby posts page 2 of an article defending IQ tests.
 
2014-04-15 01:54:38 PM  
Keep this in mind: If this year at school was hard and you just barely got through, next year isn't going to be any easier.
 
2014-04-15 01:54:42 PM  

Tyrosine: Subby posts page 2 of an article defending IQ tests.


LOL I came to say the same thing.
 
2014-04-15 01:54:45 PM  
The SAT got me a full ride, plus $500 cash each semester.

WIN.
 
2014-04-15 02:01:50 PM  
Nice try Subby.  From reading Fark comments over the years, I know full well that SAT scores are meaningless and probably shouldn't even exist.  Everyone should get to go to whatever school they choose for free.
 
2014-04-15 02:03:15 PM  
Low grades and poor SATs usually mean the student will not do well in college.

There may be a myriad of reasons why his grades were low and his SATs were bad; but the net result is that he will not do well in college, no matter how many excuses are made for those other reasons.
 
2014-04-15 02:05:44 PM  

Rapmaster2000: The SAT may be the bane of upper-middle-class parents trying to launch their children on a path to success. But sometimes one person's obstacle is another person's springboard. I am the daughter of a single, immigrant father who never attended college, and a good SAT score was one of the achievements that catapulted me into my state's flagship university and, from there, on to medical school. Flawed though it is, the SAT afforded me, as it has thousands of others, a way to prove that a poor, public-school kid who never had any test prep can do just as well as, if not better than, her better-off peers.

Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.



You know what, This is choosing between the lesser of two evils. (In an Ideal world it would be 100% based on merit)  I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies.  If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.
 
2014-04-15 02:07:38 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Low grades and poor SATs usually mean the student will not do well in college.

There may be a myriad of reasons why his grades were low and his SATs were bad; but the net result is that he will not do well in college, no matter how many excuses are made for those other reasons.


I agree but the bigger issue is that even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them.  Not everybody needs to go to college and people who choose to learn a trade skill that is useful should not be looked down at because they chose to do that instead of getting a degree.
 
2014-04-15 02:10:43 PM  

Warlordtrooper: Rapmaster2000: The SAT may be the bane of upper-middle-class parents trying to launch their children on a path to success. But sometimes one person's obstacle is another person's springboard. I am the daughter of a single, immigrant father who never attended college, and a good SAT score was one of the achievements that catapulted me into my state's flagship university and, from there, on to medical school. Flawed though it is, the SAT afforded me, as it has thousands of others, a way to prove that a poor, public-school kid who never had any test prep can do just as well as, if not better than, her better-off peers.

Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.


You know what, This is choosing between the lesser of two evils. (In an Ideal world it would be 100% based on merit)  I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies.  If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.


Giving preference to those trust fund kids so they come in and pay full freight is what allows colleges to bring in people from disadvantaged backgrounds with scholarships.
 
2014-04-15 02:11:43 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Low grades and poor SATs usually mean the student will not do well in college.

There may be a myriad of reasons why his grades were low and his SATs were bad; but the net result is that he will not do well in college, no matter how many excuses are made for those other reasons.


Well, that's just like, your opnion, man!  You can't define me with a number - you know who else liked to define people with a number?  You're fascist!  The only thing that matters is how much we love, man!  People should go to the school they've earned through their years of suffering opression at the hands of the Man!  And they should only have to study what makes them truly happy!  Down with evil corporations!

/current state of the media and attitude of Generation X (where X = any value between X and Millenial)
 
2014-04-15 02:12:40 PM  

Warlordtrooper: Rapmaster2000: The SAT may be the bane of upper-middle-class parents trying to launch their children on a path to success. But sometimes one person's obstacle is another person's springboard. I am the daughter of a single, immigrant father who never attended college, and a good SAT score was one of the achievements that catapulted me into my state's flagship university and, from there, on to medical school. Flawed though it is, the SAT afforded me, as it has thousands of others, a way to prove that a poor, public-school kid who never had any test prep can do just as well as, if not better than, her better-off peers.

Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.


You know what, This is choosing between the lesser of two evils. (In an Ideal world it would be 100% based on merit)  I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies.  If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.


I never got my white male trust fund.  Did my parents just forget to file for me?  Maybe they'll sober up enough at some point to do so.
 
2014-04-15 02:14:31 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.


As long as you can show that gender and ethnicity didn't play in the decisions made, at all, fantastic. I'm all for a world where all accusations of discrimination based on non-merit traits like gender and ethnicity are always unfounded.

Warlordtrooper: I'd rather give preferences to minorities


Racist.

Warlordtrooper: the bigger issue is that even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them


That's just plain not true.
 
2014-04-15 02:15:35 PM  
Science, biatches
 
2014-04-15 02:16:52 PM  

Warlordtrooper: even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them


Really, which ones?

Or was this a discussion that would be improved by ridiculous hyperbole?
 
2014-04-15 02:18:00 PM  

FLMountainMan: I never got my white male trust fund.  Did my parents just forget to file for me?


It comes in small packages. Things like getting preferential treatment in job applications, lower arrest rates, fewer traffic stops.

Are you one of those "when is WHITE history month, hurr hurr" folks?
 
2014-04-15 02:18:24 PM  

That Guy Jeff: Racist.


Come on, it isn't like there are any minorities with trust funds, and we know white kids always have two parents and never come from poor households...
 
2014-04-15 02:18:51 PM  
what about those with low high school grades but very high SAT scores? I wonder what message that gives to college administrators.
 
2014-04-15 02:22:57 PM  

cannotsuggestaname: what about those with low high school grades but very high SAT scores? I wonder what message that gives to college administrators.


We are lazy, disorganized slobs with good mental retention (HS GPA 2.25, SAT 1240/1600, in 1975)
 
2014-04-15 02:23:04 PM  
They ARE a much better way to determine your likelihood of finishing college than ability to run fast with a football.
 
2014-04-15 02:24:24 PM  

Smackledorfer: Warlordtrooper: even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them

Really, which ones?

Or was this a discussion that would be improved by ridiculous hyperbole?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303618/Massachusetts-McDona ld s-demands-bachelors-degree-years-experience-cashiers-job.html
 
2014-04-15 02:25:02 PM  

cannotsuggestaname: what about those with low high school grades but very high SAT scores? I wonder what message that gives to college administrators.


I don't know either, but it got me into college.
 
2014-04-15 02:25:14 PM  

That Guy Jeff: Rapmaster2000: Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.

As long as you can show that gender and ethnicity didn't play in the decisions made, at all, fantastic. I'm all for a world where all accusations of discrimination based on non-merit traits like gender and ethnicity are always unfounded.


That would suck for mediocre white guys.  They'd have to accept that a 3.1 and bad math scores were only good enough for a marketing degree at directional state.  Imagine a world where losers accepted their lot in life.  That's not my America.
 
2014-04-15 02:26:05 PM  

FLMountainMan: Warlordtrooper: Rapmaster2000: The SAT may be the bane of upper-middle-class parents trying to launch their children on a path to success. But sometimes one person's obstacle is another person's springboard. I am the daughter of a single, immigrant father who never attended college, and a good SAT score was one of the achievements that catapulted me into my state's flagship university and, from there, on to medical school. Flawed though it is, the SAT afforded me, as it has thousands of others, a way to prove that a poor, public-school kid who never had any test prep can do just as well as, if not better than, her better-off peers.

Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.


You know what, This is choosing between the lesser of two evils. (In an Ideal world it would be 100% based on merit)  I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies.  If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.

I never got my white male trust fund.  Did my parents just forget to file for me?  Maybe they'll sober up enough at some point to do so.


White males (such as ourselves) generally have enough representation in the state and federal legislatures to look after their interests. In Michigan, for example, they changed state law to forbid colleges from giving any preference to racial minority students. Other legal maneuvers used by mostly-white legislatures to aid their constituents are a bit more subtle.

Looks like Florida's senate has a few white senators. Do you feel they're neglecting  your interests?
 
2014-04-15 02:26:52 PM  

Warlordtrooper: Smackledorfer: Warlordtrooper: even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them

Really, which ones?

Or was this a discussion that would be improved by ridiculous hyperbole?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303618/Massachusetts-McDona ld s-demands-bachelors-degree-years-experience-cashiers-job.html


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, you're serious. Let me laugh harder.
 
2014-04-15 02:29:41 PM  

Warlordtrooper: Smackledorfer: Warlordtrooper: even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them

Really, which ones?

Or was this a discussion that would be improved by ridiculous hyperbole?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303618/Massachusetts-McDona ld s-demands-bachelors-degree-years-experience-cashiers-job.html


Well, assuming dailyfail can be trusted, I stand corrected.
 
2014-04-15 02:31:09 PM  

Smackledorfer: Warlordtrooper: Smackledorfer: Warlordtrooper: even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them

Really, which ones?

Or was this a discussion that would be improved by ridiculous hyperbole?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303618/Massachusetts-McDona ld s-demands-bachelors-degree-years-experience-cashiers-job.html

Well, assuming dailyfail can be trusted, I stand corrected.


Actually I don't. 10 an hour isn't minimum wage :)
 
2014-04-15 02:34:19 PM  

Smackledorfer: Actually I don't. 10 an hour isn't minimum wage :)


It's over $10 bucks an hour here and we have the near lowest wage in Canada. WTF, America?? Pay your people a living wage once in a while.
 
2014-04-15 02:41:51 PM  
Anyone have any quality links for free online SAT or IQ tests. I want to test my mettle.
I never took the SAT since I was a Spicoli.
 
2014-04-15 02:43:56 PM  

Warlordtrooper: Smackledorfer: Warlordtrooper: even minimum wage jobs these days are requiring degrees for them

Really, which ones?

Or was this a discussion that would be improved by ridiculous hyperbole?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303618/Massachusetts-McDona ld s-demands-bachelors-degree-years-experience-cashiers-job.html


That was one independent McDonald's franchise. Hardly proof that this is a widespread requirement.
 
2014-04-15 02:46:36 PM  
I took neither.  I took the ACT once and made a 24...I could have done better if I had taken it again, but it was enough to get into the college I wanted to go to (and I was never going to get a score good enough for a scholarship), so I didn't bother retaking it.  I don't really care about what my IQ is- I know what I'm good at and what I'm not.  Too many people get hung up on that stuff when they are young, but it doesn't really matter much the older and more experienced you get.
 
2014-04-15 02:57:46 PM  

Tr0mBoNe: Smackledorfer: Actually I don't. 10 an hour isn't minimum wage :)

It's over $10 bucks an hour here and we have the near lowest wage in Canada. WTF, America?? Pay your people a living wage once in a while.


That kind of stuff won't work in the U.S., mainly because raising the minimum wage would just make it too easy for these people. What's next, some of that Canadian commie healthcare you like to brag about? No thank you. We are a land of temporarily broke millionaires. If you want poor people to succeed, you have to lower the minimum wage and taxes, and wait for the ones that really want it to emerge from the squalor. It's really that simple. The welfare state will make the plight of the poor worse, by handing them everything they need to survive, rather than making them earn it through blood, sweat, and tears. If we keep feeding these people, America is going to get soft and lose its will to fight. Is that what you want? A world where America is no longer willing to pick a fight. One day far down the road you'll be sitting there in your flannel shirt with your Canadian grandchildren, lamenting the fact that America hasn't started any wars in their lifetime, all because everyone's taken care of and nobody wants to fight anymore. Doesn't sound so peachy anymore, does it?
 
2014-04-15 03:01:55 PM  

draypresct: FLMountainMan: Warlordtrooper: Rapmaster2000: The SAT may be the bane of upper-middle-class parents trying to launch their children on a path to success. But sometimes one person's obstacle is another person's springboard. I am the daughter of a single, immigrant father who never attended college, and a good SAT score was one of the achievements that catapulted me into my state's flagship university and, from there, on to medical school. Flawed though it is, the SAT afforded me, as it has thousands of others, a way to prove that a poor, public-school kid who never had any test prep can do just as well as, if not better than, her better-off peers.

Yeah, but a lot of people are just going to accuse you of getting in because you're a woman or an immigrant.  This is a very common coping mechanism among people who aren't smart enough to do the same thing you did.


You know what, This is choosing between the lesser of two evils. (In an Ideal world it would be 100% based on merit)  I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies.  If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.

I never got my white male trust fund.  Did my parents just forget to file for me?  Maybe they'll sober up enough at some point to do so.

White males (such as ourselves) generally have enough representation in the state and federal legislatures to look after their interests. In Michigan, for example, they changed state law to forbid colleges from giving any preference to racial minority students. Other legal maneuvers used by mostly-white legislatures to aid their constituents are a bit more subtle.

Looks like Florida's senate has a few white senators. Do you feel they're neglecting  your interests?


Smackledorfer: FLMountainMan: I never got my white male trust fund.  Did my parents just forget to file for me?

It comes in small packages. Things like getting preferential treatment in job applications, lower arrest rates, fewer traffic stops.

Are you one of those "when is WHITE history month, hurr hurr" folks?


Thank you for the lectures, really appreciate it.  I'm sure your black friend is very grateful to you for standing up for him or her.  Now, back to what I actually said - the original poster implied that white people applying for college all have trust funds.  I mocked that statement for its stupidity and its racism (against nonwhites more than whites, if you associate wealth with moral virtue).
 
2014-04-15 03:06:01 PM  
I had awful grades and great test scores. I've done good IRL, but I could have done better if I had cared to.
 
2014-04-15 03:08:50 PM  

FLMountainMan: the original poster implied that white people applying for college all have trust funds.


Warlordtrooper: I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies. If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.


FLMountainMan, that's simply not the case. Warlordtrooper said that trust fund kiddies get preferences (with the implication that most trust fund kiddies are white), not that white people applying for college all have trust funds.

Most trust fund kiddies are white =/= most white people have trust funds.
All squares are rectangles; not all square are rectangles.
 
2014-04-15 03:11:11 PM  

draypresct: FLMountainMan: the original poster implied that white people applying for college all have trust funds.

Warlordtrooper: I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies. If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.

FLMountainMan, that's simply not the case. Warlordtrooper said that trust fund kiddies get preferences (with the implication that most trust fund kiddies are white), not that white people applying for college all have trust funds.

Most trust fund kiddies are white =/= most white people have trust funds.
All squares are rectangles; not all square are rectangles.


Rereading it, I can see your point.
 
2014-04-15 03:14:07 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Low grades and poor SATs usually mean the student will not do well in college.

There may be a myriad of reasons why his grades were low and his SATs were bad; but the net result is that he will not do well in college, no matter how many excuses are made for those other reasons.


I got shiat grades in high school, dropped out, never took my SAT. Later I got my GED, joined the military, got motivated. I graduated college at age 29 with magna cum laude GPA of 3.98 from a brick and mortar Oregon school. I was accepted to Oregon Health Science University for the public health program and decided not to go becuase I am having more fun with the military.

Not everyone is the same.
 
2014-04-15 03:26:52 PM  
I really dislike how heavily weighted the scores are during the college admission process. Higher income individuals, or kids who doesn't have as many extra-curriculars have more time to study for it, have access to tutors, etc. My parents were able to buy me prep materials for the ACT but playing 3 sports, being a school newspaper editor, and already doing my AP classes was enough on my plate. My score was good but it wasn't good enough to go where I wanted, which was frustrating. But oh well.

/I wasn't homeschooled in high school, for those of you who will inevitable make that joke.
 
2014-04-15 03:27:45 PM  

scotchlandia: Not everyone is the same.


Was there a point to your post beyond humble bragging?

We lack the resources to accept everyone to college and give everyone equal aid.  We also lack the psychic powers to do a case by case inventory of future potential. So unfortunately, we have to use some objective measures when deciding.

If you have better measures than GPA and standardized test scores, let us know.
 
2014-04-15 03:28:05 PM  
I thought standardized tests were supposed to be corrupt and unfair and biased against poor/urban/ethnic/left-handed students and everyone should hate them.

Well, not that I've ever seen a good reason why that accusation always gets thrown for schools that score poorly on their test results.
Is it because math tests refer to obscure rural things that city kids have never encountered, like dividing acres into equal units and they don't know if that's a unit of area or time or volume? Is it because science tests use metric units and they've never learned no fancy foreign language? Is it because the tests are written in actual friggin' english instead of whatever mutant version the students are exposed to by neighborhood dropouts and illiterates? (That might actually be the core of the argument, but wtf are the 12 years of english classes there for, naptime?)
 
2014-04-15 03:33:32 PM  
"This is a hammer. This is a nail. Hit the nail with the hammer so it fully penetrates the wood."
(bam bam bam bam bam)
"It's too hard .."
(sniffle)
"Congratulations. You're qualified to be a Senator from Illinois .."
"Don't I have to take the SATs or something?"
"No. No. Not you .. you're special."
 
2014-04-15 03:33:42 PM  
I was replying to the post that states: poor GPA and poor SAT equals college failure. Not the case. You are correct about resources and aid - people should earn that. Since I didn't earn my resources with the SAT I used the GI Bill. I feel like I touched on some sore point with you, would you like to discuss this?
 
2014-04-15 03:34:44 PM  

scotchlandia: I was replying to the post that states: poor GPA and poor SAT equals college failure. Not the case. You are correct about resources and aid - people should earn that. Since I didn't earn my resources with the SAT I used the GI Bill. I feel like I touched on some sore point with you, would you like to discuss this?


Gyrfalcon: usually

 
2014-04-15 03:45:13 PM  

Smackledorfer: scotchlandia: I was replying to the post that states: poor GPA and poor SAT equals college failure. Not the case. You are correct about resources and aid - people should earn that. Since I didn't earn my resources with the SAT I used the GI Bill. I feel like I touched on some sore point with you, would you like to discuss this?

Gyrfalcon: usually


Fair enough.

/cheerfully withdrawn!
 
2014-04-15 03:50:47 PM  

FLMountainMan: draypresct: FLMountainMan: the original poster implied that white people applying for college all have trust funds.

Warlordtrooper: I'd rather give preferences to minorities then giving preferences to trust fund kiddies. If you have a good SAT score at least you put in work and effort, unlike the people whose single accomplishments in life are being born from the correct vagina.

FLMountainMan, that's simply not the case. Warlordtrooper said that trust fund kiddies get preferences (with the implication that most trust fund kiddies are white), not that white people applying for college all have trust funds.

Most trust fund kiddies are white =/= most white people have trust funds.
All squares are rectangles; not all square are rectangles.

Rereading it, I can see your point.


My Weeners was more pointed than your post deserved. I've been on Fark too long . . .
 
2014-04-15 03:51:38 PM  

scotchlandia: /cheerfully withdrawn!


Ya, I'm in a grumpy mood today.  Apologies for being a douche.
 
2014-04-15 03:55:52 PM  

draypresct: My Weeners


Damn. Fark has caught on to using "initial" instead of "first" in front of the word "post".

/back to the thesaurus.
 
2014-04-15 03:56:45 PM  
Yeah. the metric of the SAT/GPA does a great job of measuring success in college. 46% of students who get admitted actually finish their 4 year degree/ 46%-that's almost half- (i think).

College takes endurance and self-discipline. The test doesn't measure either. Increase freshman level class sizes, the students who will make it will progress on, the others will drop out anyways. Universities still get paid. Give everyone a shot.

/B.S. from state university
 
2014-04-15 04:00:14 PM  
Schools care about growing numbers in the 'win' column, so they select students that will succeed within their specific system, not necessarily at their chosen career path.  Great at taking tests?  Awesome, enjoy your acceptance letters.  Not so great at taking tests but gifted with a hands-on approach?  Nobody wants to touch you.

People biatch about lobbyists creating misleading survey numbers and statistics, this amounts to the same.  The testing organizations and academic organizations feed off of each other, and this is another example.  Some of the most intelligent and successful individuals I've met have been those who fell outside the realm of normal academic behavior.  Some of the most lacking individuals in both life and career have been those who were fantastic at taking tests and acquired a number of higher tier degrees.

/not wearing a tinfoil hat
 
2014-04-15 04:03:56 PM  

scotchlandia: Gyrfalcon: Low grades and poor SATs usually mean the student will not do well in college.

There may be a myriad of reasons why his grades were low and his SATs were bad; but the net result is that he will not do well in college, no matter how many excuses are made for those other reasons.

I got shiat grades in high school, dropped out, never took my SAT. Later I got my GED, joined the military, got motivated. I graduated college at age 29 with magna cum laude GPA of 3.98 from a brick and mortar Oregon school. I was accepted to Oregon Health Science University for the public health program and decided not to go becuase I am having more fun with the military.

Not everyone is the same.


And pre-military, you would likely have done a crap job of college.
 
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