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(Washington Post)   Palestinians angry about university trip to Auschwitz because it did not feature a tutorial   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 173
    More: Sad, Palestinian Center, Auschwitz, Palestinians, Ben-Gurion University, German government, Dungeons & Dragons deities, nazi death camps, International Institute for Strategic Studies  
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5688 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2014 at 9:44 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-15 08:50:09 AM  
Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.
 
2014-04-15 08:59:30 AM  

gopher321: Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.


A 1/3 of world Jewry was wiped out in under 10 years. From 18 to 12 million. Only the Roma suffered anything similar during the Shoah.

Tell me what is the approved reaction to that?
 
2014-04-15 09:05:13 AM  

zedster: gopher321: Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.

A 1/3 of world Jewry was wiped out in under 10 years. From 18 to 12 million. Only the Roma suffered anything similar during the Shoah.

Tell me what is the approved reaction to that?


Vigorous condemnation, and arming every single Jew in the World, both physically and mentally, so that the next tin-pot anti-Semite who gets a wild hair up his ass will think twice.
 
2014-04-15 09:51:29 AM  
Good for him.
 
2014-04-15 09:53:39 AM  

zedster: Tell me what is the approved reaction to that?


For Palestinians?

LALALALALALALALALAICANTHEARYOULALALALALALALALALA

Or so I'm told.
 
2014-04-15 09:55:12 AM  

gopher321: Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.


Taken from an old thread:

What makes the Holocaust unique?

1. The "Final Solution" was designed to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child. The only Jews who would have conceivably survived had Hitler been victorious were those who somehow escaped discovery by the Nazis.

2. Jewish birth (actually mere evidence of "Jewish blood") was sufficient to warrant the punishment of death. This feature distinguished Jews from Poles and Russians and from "Aryans" who were not singled out unless they chose to single themselves out. With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing.

3. The extermination of the Jews had no political or economic justification. It was not a means to any end; it was an end in itself. The killing of Jews was not considered just a part of the war effort, but equal to it; thus, resources that could have been used in the war were diverted instead to the program of extermination.

4. The people who carried out the "Final Solution" were primarily average citizens. They were not perverts or sadists. The "tone-setters" were ordinary idealists, except that their ideals were torture and murder. Someone once wrote that Germany was the model of civilized society. What was perverse, then, was that the Germans could work all day in the concentration camps and then go home and read Schiller and Goethe while listening to Beethoven.

Other examples of mass murder exist in human history, such as the atrocities committed by Pol Pot in Cambodia and the Turkish annihilation of the Armenians or the genocide the arabs are currently busy pulling off in Darfur. But none of those other catastrophes contain more than one of the characteristics described above.
 
2014-04-15 09:58:30 AM  

dittybopper: zedster: gopher321: Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.

A 1/3 of world Jewry was wiped out in under 10 years. From 18 to 12 million. Only the Roma suffered anything similar during the Shoah.

Tell me what is the approved reaction to that?

Vigorous condemnation, and arming every single Jew in the World, both physically and mentally, so that the next tin-pot anti-Semite who gets a wild hair up his ass will think twice.


I was just at the Holocaust museum on sunday, and based on the warsaw ghetto uprising, I see where jews get the idea that they can't count on anyone else to help them, and arm accordingly.
 
2014-04-15 09:58:44 AM  

TappingTheVein: gopher321: Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.

Taken from an old thread:

What makes the Holocaust unique?

1. The "Final Solution" was designed to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child. The only Jews who would have conceivably survived had Hitler been victorious were those who somehow escaped discovery by the Nazis.

2. Jewish birth (actually mere evidence of "Jewish blood") was sufficient to warrant the punishment of death. This feature distinguished Jews from Poles and Russians and from "Aryans" who were not singled out unless they chose to single themselves out. With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing.


And homosexuals.
 
2014-04-15 09:59:01 AM  

gopher321: there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million


Who would that be?

Mass starvations weren't targeting an ethnic group.
 
2014-04-15 10:00:20 AM  
TappingTheVein: "With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing. "

You may want to google "Generalplan Ost".
 
2014-04-15 10:01:50 AM  
10,000 years from now I predict that the Palestinians will still be the turd of human society.  There is no evidence that they have ever tried to improve their lot in life and I see no evidence that they ever will. So, boo farking hoo to their situation.
 
2014-04-15 10:03:26 AM  

dittybopper: Vigorous condemnation, and arming every single Jew in the World, both physically and mentally, so that the next tin-pot anti-Semite who gets a wild hair up his ass will think twice.


Sounds a lot like modern Israel. Israel seems to have taken the sadly true lesson from WWII that it's better to have the guns than the moral high ground.
 
2014-04-15 10:05:59 AM  
And heeeeere comes the vocal part I mentioned above.

I didn't say it didn't happen, or lessen what did happen.

I said Jews were not the only victims of Nazi pogroms.
 
2014-04-15 10:06:21 AM  

LordJiro: TappingTheVein: gopher321: Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.

Taken from an old thread:

What makes the Holocaust unique?

1. The "Final Solution" was designed to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child. The only Jews who would have conceivably survived had Hitler been victorious were those who somehow escaped discovery by the Nazis.

2. Jewish birth (actually mere evidence of "Jewish blood") was sufficient to warrant the punishment of death. This feature distinguished Jews from Poles and Russians and from "Aryans" who were not singled out unless they chose to single themselves out. With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing.

And homosexuals.


Which, of course, was why Ernst Röhm  was killed the moment Nazis came to power and definitely not an integral part of their movement...
 
2014-04-15 10:06:49 AM  

gopher321: Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.


Uh, if you're talking about the German Holocaust the usual numbers are 6 million Jews and 6 million "everyone else" (Gypsies, political prisoners, defectives, gays etc).

If were going to look at the broader context and include the Soviet mass killings of various ethnic/national groups, then yes, you are correct.

/never understood why we still let the Soviets off the hook in the greater context of WWII.
 
2014-04-15 10:07:29 AM  

LordJiro: And homosexuals.


Interestingly quite a few top ranking nazis were homosexuals. The most notorious i believe was  Ernst Röhm.
 
2014-04-15 10:07:46 AM  
Nobody (or nobody sane) denies the severity or cruelness of holocaust.

Some people just think that it shouldn't have been a guidebook for the victims to implement on other victims.
 
2014-04-15 10:08:37 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: than the moral high ground


Any group headed by a party like Hamas, whose entire strategy rests on exposing civilian woman andchildren to protect their fighters can claim the moral high ground.

Now don't get me wrong, Israel has done some farked up shiat but given that strategy by Hamas they still managed to have a better civilian combatant death ratio in the GAZA war than any major NATO operation.
 
2014-04-15 10:11:54 AM  
Ungrateful pricks, it's not like they aren't getting a real time demonstration.
 
2014-04-15 10:13:14 AM  

liam76: Any group headed by a party like Hamas, whose entire strategy rests on exposing civilian woman andchildren to protect their fighters can claim the moral high ground.



Was that supposed to be "can't"?
 
2014-04-15 10:13:16 AM  

Plamus: ou may want to google "Generalplan Ost".


Doesn't fit what i wrote, they would have been killed for territorial and expansion goals and it was a future plan, most of it taking place after winning the war.
 
2014-04-15 10:14:17 AM  
You know you are on an Israel/Palestine thread when every other poster is on your ignore list.
 
2014-04-15 10:16:02 AM  

mayIFark: Some people just think that it shouldn't have been a guidebook for the victims to implement on other victims


Want to give me an example of how the "victims" are using it as a guide book on other victims?

And lets remember that the Nazi party started in 1920 and by the time it ended 25 years later every Jew that came under its power was stripped of all rights, killed, or in a camp destined to be killed. Half the worlds population of Jews was wiped out.

Nothing like that has happened that I know of.
 
2014-04-15 10:17:48 AM  

give me doughnuts: liam76: Any group headed by a party like Hamas, whose entire strategy rests on exposing civilian woman andchildren to protect their fighters can claim the moral high ground.


Was that supposed to be "can't"?


DOH!

mayIFark: You know you are on an Israel/Palestine thread when every other poster is on your ignore list cowards make claims about victims of the Nazi's acting like Nazi's but don't have the balls to reapond when questioned.


FTFY
 
2014-04-15 10:18:03 AM  

gopher321: Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.


Know how I know you've never been to a holocaust museum?
 
2014-04-15 10:18:26 AM  

TappingTheVein: 1. The "Final Solution" was designed to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child. The only Jews who would have conceivably survived had Hitler been victorious were those who somehow escaped discovery by the Nazis.


It also included other categories from the start (clearing mental hospitals of "genetic defectives") was the first step, and the whole plan was designed to be expanded to include everyone who wasn't "Aryan" or who disagreed with the Nazi Party.


2. Jewish birth (actually mere evidence of "Jewish blood") was sufficient to warrant the punishment of death. This feature distinguished Jews from Poles and Russians and from "Aryans" who were not singled out unless they chose to single themselves out. With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing.

The "Jewish blood" rules were intentionally designed to be flexible and anyone who was considered "Jewish" but deemed useful was given a free pass.  This has come up if you've been following the art dealer in Munich: his father was Jewish but that didn't bother Himmler and Goebels.


3. The extermination of the Jews had no political or economic justification. It was nt a means to any end; it was an end in itself. The killing of Jews was not considered just a part of the war effort, but equal to it; thus, resources that could have been used in the war were diverted instead to the program of extermination.

Incorrect: pushing Jews to ghettos and then concentration camps was always an economic move on the Nazis part.  They were conducting a massive redistribution of wealth in German (and the countries they invaded) by disenfranchising one group.


4. The people who carried out the "Final Solution" were primarily average citizens. They were not perverts or sadists. The "tone-setters" were ordinary idealists, except that their ideals were torture and murder. Someone once wrote that Germany was the model of civilized society. What was perverse, then, was that the Germans could work all day in the concentration camps and then go home and read Schiller and Goethe while listening to Beethoven.

This is true of the people who have committed every genocide from Carthage to Bosnia; you don't need an army of sociopaths to commit genocide; you just need to convince everyone that the targets are less than human.


Other examples of mass murder exist in human history, such as the atrocities committed by Pol Pot in Cambodia and the Turkish annihilation of the Armenians or the genocide the arabs are currently busy pulling off in Darfur. But none of those other catastrophes contain more than one of the characteristics described above.

Bullshiat.
 
2014-04-15 10:18:49 AM  

liam76: Now don't get me wrong, Israel has done some farked up shiat but given that strategy by Hamas they still managed to have a better civilian combatant death ratio in the GAZA war than any major NATO operation


It is always been very sad to me that fark in general is so anti semite and pro terrorism. I am not a Jew but fark as a rule never misses a chance to blast Israel and make terrorists as some kind of heroic sympathetic figures. Arabs hate Palestinians. They don't care about them and they use them as a tool against Israel directly with terror tactics and as a tool to turn world opinion against Israel. Israel has fought mightily for peace, been willing to give up a lot and been rebuffed every time. At some point you get tired of it and take harsher tactics to survive and that is what Israel has done. Nobody is perfect and Israel is not perfect but they are the good guys in this and always have been.
 
2014-04-15 10:18:59 AM  
So how long will it be before we read this guy's obituary?  Also, how ever will they fit his balls in the casket?
 
2014-04-15 10:19:16 AM  

TappingTheVein: LordJiro: And homosexuals.

Interestingly quite a few top ranking nazis were homosexuals. The most notorious i believe was  Ernst Röhm.


Indeed. I've read that a large percentage of the SA under Röhm were homosexuals, and that his close relationship with Hitler led to a rumor that Adolf was gay.

Himmler and Heydrich would've loved that.
 
2014-04-15 10:19:47 AM  

HypnozombieX: Ungrateful pricks, it's not like they aren't getting a real time demonstration.


I assume you're referring to what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians?
 
2014-04-15 10:22:29 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Incorrect: pushing Jews to ghettos and then concentration camps was always an economic move on the Nazis part. They were conducting a massive redistribution of wealth in German (and the countries they invaded) by disenfranchising one group


This is the weakest justification I have ever seen.

There was no profit to be had from the concentration camps, especially basing the selection of people to go with religion as a factor.
 
2014-04-15 10:23:44 AM  

gopher321: And heeeeere comes the vocal part I mentioned above.

I didn't say it didn't happen, or lessen what did happen.

I said Jews were not the only victims of Nazi pogroms.


I guess you already know the answer, but I'll re-iterate it anyway. There is a reason you do not hear about the other ones. There had been genocides before and after holocaust. But they do not need to keep it mentioning every other day because they do not need to create a smokescreen to hide something else.

When you use the suffering of your previous generation to gain unfair advantage, that is something special.
 
2014-04-15 10:23:53 AM  

TappingTheVein: Interestingly quite a few top ranking nazis were homosexuals. The most notorious i believe was Ernst Röhm.


Rohm was murdered on Nazi Party orders long before Kristanacht.  Many other members of the SA were also killed/tortured/imprisoned. Many other members of the SA were also homosexuals, and it is clear that destroying the SA was about purging gay men from the Party leadership and giving power to the SS.

Aside from Rohm, name me another top-ranking Nazi homosexual who survived 1934.
 
2014-04-15 10:28:07 AM  

mayIFark: When you use the suffering of your previous generation to gain unfair advantage, that is something special.


Wow, that's a pretty farked up statement right there. I have never in my life understood why Jews engender so much hate for doing nothing but existing. Hell, murdering psycopaths like Italian mobsters are idolized in American culture but all throughout history Jews have been hated for nothing more then existing. So here we have it spinning back to virulent accepted anti Semitism being the norm after a generation of it being toned down. What I could never understand is why?
 
2014-04-15 10:28:29 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Incorrect: pushing Jews to ghettos and then concentration camps was always an economic move on the Nazis part.  They were conducting a massive redistribution of wealth in German (and the countries they invaded) by disenfranchising one group.


The confiscation of Jewish property took place before the mass extermination of jews. From 1933-38, transfers of jewish owned enterprises to German ownership was "voluntary" and after Kristallnacht they dropped the charade and simply took iwhatever they wanted.

Dwight_Yeast: Bullshiat.


Great argument!
I'm sure you can find one or two across human history but they are quite rare.
 
2014-04-15 10:32:34 AM  

zedster: gopher321: Others, he said, think the Holocaust is exaggerated or just one of many massacres that occurred during World War II.


Well, duh. Jews are the most public and, let's be honest, vocal about their victimization, but there were other ethnic groups targeted, some of which lost far more that 6 million, that Jews and and many in the rest of the world ignore.

A 1/3 of world Jewry was wiped out in under 10 years. From 18 to 12 million. Only the Roma suffered anything similar during the Shoah.

Tell me what is the approved reaction to that?


Well, exactly the opposite of how you reacted?

But hey, if you think you have a carte blanche to act like total dickheads to everyone and everything in perpetuity. Enjoy your pariah status for eternity.
 
2014-04-15 10:33:13 AM  
weknowmemes.com
 
2014-04-15 10:37:06 AM  

TappingTheVein: The confiscation of Jewish property took place before the mass extermination of jews. From 1933-38, transfers of jewish owned enterprises to German ownership was "voluntary" and after Kristallnacht they dropped the charade and simply took iwhatever they wanted.


Right.  It was steps leading in a particular direction: you everything which belongs to a certain group, including their houses, so then you have to house them somewhere, which mean setting up camps or ghettos (here in the States we opted for camps).  Then the ghettos become overcrowded and unsightly, and they're not easy to hide from the international press, so you build concentration camps and make a lot of noise about "resettlement".  Then the camps are full, so you have to do something, so you hold a meeting an Wansee and.... well, there's a reason it was called the "Final Solution."

While exterminating the Jews (and all other non-Aryans) was an ideological goal for Hitler, for the rest of the Nazi Party leadership, it was all about controlling wealth and power.
 
2014-04-15 10:37:30 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: TappingTheVein: Interestingly quite a few top ranking nazis were homosexuals. The most notorious i believe was Ernst Röhm.

Rohm was murdered on Nazi Party orders long before Kristanacht.  Many other members of the SA were also killed/tortured/imprisoned. Many other members of the SA were also homosexuals, and it is clear that destroying the SA was about purging gay men from the Party leadership and giving power to the SS.

Aside from Rohm, name me another top-ranking Nazi homosexual who survived 1934.


Hermann Goring.
 
2014-04-15 10:38:30 AM  

TappingTheVein: Great argument!


As point four was based on the first three points being true (which they're not) there was no need for a rational explanation of why point four wasn't true.
 
2014-04-15 10:38:34 AM  

Brick-House: 10,000 years from now I predict that the Palestinians will still be the turd of human society.  There is no evidence that they have ever tried to improve their lot in life and I see no evidence that they ever will. So, boo farking hoo to their situation.


Palestinians are an artificial construct, created by both their fellow Arabs, and the unfortunate situation of the aparthaid they're living under now.

10,000 years is a very long time, and I suggest you look up what Arabs have managed during the last 10,000 years.

---

Or maybe you're just trolling. In which case, well done.
 
2014-04-15 10:40:24 AM  

mayIFark: When you use the suffering of your previous generation to gain unfair advantage, that is something special.


What unfair advantage exactly? Was there some sort of sinister plot to mope and cry and look pathetic just to bait neighbors into attacking?
Regardless of how Israel might not be the nicest neighbors, I can't help but cheer for them when they pulled an escalation of "You wanna attack us, we're going to beat you back and take your land for being dicks." Direct conquest is out of style in the modern world, but defensive conquest? I don't see anything wrong with that.
 
2014-04-15 10:41:17 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Aside from Rohm, name me another top-ranking Nazi homosexual who survived 1934.


Some suspect Adolf Hitler was. Based on Eugen Dollman's testimonies, former member of Himmler's staff and one-time Hitler interpreter, series of young men identified Hitler as the man who had "picked them up" on the streets for homosexual relations. Also based on the Mend Protocol. Also the books 'The Hidden Hitler' and 'The Pink Swastika'.

You seem to be bothered by this, mind if i ask why ?

Does this bother you for some reason ?
 
2014-04-15 10:43:23 AM  
reactiongifs.me
 
2014-04-15 10:44:35 AM  

Mike_1962: Dwight_Yeast: TappingTheVein: Interestingly quite a few top ranking nazis were homosexuals. The most notorious i believe was Ernst Röhm.

Rohm was murdered on Nazi Party orders long before Kristanacht.  Many other members of the SA were also killed/tortured/imprisoned. Many other members of the SA were also homosexuals, and it is clear that destroying the SA was about purging gay men from the Party leadership and giving power to the SS.

Aside from Rohm, name me another top-ranking Nazi homosexual who survived 1934.

Hermann Goring.


Two wives.  Kids.  Maybe bisexual, but he was one of the people who wanted Rohm out of the way.

Here's the thing about the whole "Nazi leadership were all gay" myth: if it were true, what did re-criminalizing homosexuality (which was legal in Germany) buy them?  Why not weave homosexuality into the Party mythology?  They were playing with tropes from Classical Greece and Rome which would have made it easy to do.
 
2014-04-15 10:45:26 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Right. It was steps leading in a particular direction: you everything which belongs to a certain group, including their houses, so then you have to house them somewhere, which mean setting up camps or ghettos (here in the States we opted for camps). Then the ghettos become overcrowded and unsightly, and they're not easy to hide from the international press, so you build concentration camps and make a lot of noise about "resettlement". Then the camps are full, so you have to do something, so you hold a meeting an Wansee and.... well, there's a reason it was called the "Final Solution."


The bottom line is that it wasn't profitable, either to pick based on race, or to kill them.

It wasn't done for wealth distribution, and that is a pathetically weak argument.
 
2014-04-15 10:48:16 AM  

TappingTheVein: You seem to be bothered by this, mind if i ask why


He is upset that peopel think soem top Nazi leaders were gay and is arguing that the jews were killed for economic reasons...draw your own conclusions.
 
2014-04-15 10:49:58 AM  

TappingTheVein: Some suspect Adolf Hitler was. Based on Eugen Dollman's testimonies, former member of Himmler's staff and one-time Hitler interpreter, series of young men identified Hitler as the man who had "picked them up" on the streets for homosexual relations. Also based on the Mend Protocol. Also the books 'The Hidden Hitler' and 'The Pink Swastika'.


So, about as much proof as we have that he had one testicle.

And we now know for certain that that was part of the OSS disinformation campaign, so...

TappingTheVein: You seem to be bothered by this, mind if i ask why ?


Two reasons

1) It doesn't make any godamn sense.  Like I said above, there was no reason for the Nazis to embrace their homosexual if they all were in fact gay.  And if they were, why kill Rohm and the leadership of the SA?

2) the fact that the most fervent purveyors of this myth are homophobes who somehow wish to prove that there's something "wrong" with homosexuality.  People like these nice folks (who are one of the first hits that come up when you search for "Herman Goering Gay"):

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/080515
 
2014-04-15 10:50:59 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: While exterminating the Jews (and all other non-Aryans) was an ideological goal for Hitler, for the rest of the Nazi Party leadership, it was all about controlling wealth and power.


Not according to Hitler. And you can do that very well without losing resources and funds on extermination camps.

Dwight_Yeast: As point four was based on the first three points being true (which they're not) there was no need for a rational explanation of why point four wasn't true.


Since you're wrong i would like to see you name examples. Go right ahead.
 
2014-04-15 10:52:13 AM  

liam76: He is upset that peopel think soem top Nazi leaders were gay and is arguing that the jews were killed for economic reasons...draw your own conclusions.


I know, just wanted to see if he had the balls to admit it. I miss the old school Farkers who had no problem admitting to it.
 
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