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(Talking Points Memo)   Bundy Ranch 'militia' had strict women-first policy...in case of firefights with federal agency officers   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 673
    More: Asinine, Ted Bundy, Bundy Ranch, police officers, firefighters, foreign exchange reserves  
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12482 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2014 at 7:05 AM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-15 11:44:18 AM

ThighsofGlory: Prank Call of Cthulhu: The more I hear about these traitorous morons, the more I wish the government had just solved the problem with a well-placed JDAM.

You want the US military to kill our citizens on our soil.


They love death and torture.
 
2014-04-15 11:44:47 AM

MechaPyx: Pangea: meat0918: Danger Mouse: So why were they trying to arrest the cows? They did nothing wrong. thy're just cows for farks sake. wouldn't you arrest Bundy?

Seems like there are ways to resolve this without sending in armed rangers for what's basically a tax issue.

They'll summon Bundy to court once his cattle trespass again.

Regardless of whether or not If Bundy is dumb enough to show up, they'll find him in contempt, and arrest him.

He's smart enough to not show up though, unless he really believes the sovereign citizen crap and thinks they can't actually arrest him.

He doesn't own nearly enough land to support the cattle. If they don't stay on the federal land they'll starve to death.

The cattle are in a continuous state of trespass.

So in other words dude needs to either buy more land or get rid of some cows and he's been unwilling to do either.


Correct.
 
2014-04-15 11:44:57 AM

MechaPyx: Pangea: meat0918: Danger Mouse: So why were they trying to arrest the cows? They did nothing wrong. thy're just cows for farks sake. wouldn't you arrest Bundy?

Seems like there are ways to resolve this without sending in armed rangers for what's basically a tax issue.

They'll summon Bundy to court once his cattle trespass again.

Regardless of whether or not If Bundy is dumb enough to show up, they'll find him in contempt, and arrest him.

He's smart enough to not show up though, unless he really believes the sovereign citizen crap and thinks they can't actually arrest him.

He doesn't own nearly enough land to support the cattle. If they don't stay on the federal land they'll starve to death.

The cattle are in a continuous state of trespass.

So in other words dude needs to either buy more land or get rid of some cows and he's been unwilling to do either.


...or he could just pay the grazing fees in the first place. He'd still make a profit, but not the kind that he's used to since he's been freeloading for so long.
 
2014-04-15 11:45:39 AM

thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.


Conspiracy? What conspiracy? I don't see any conspiracy happening, just business as usual, the only odd thing about it is people paying attention to it.  You are the only one talking about conspiracies, what does that do for you?
 
2014-04-15 11:46:18 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Anyone who seriously considers using firepower against the US government because the government is legally and rightfully executing its authority shouldn't be permitted to own a gun.

The NSA should track down everyone shown pointing guns at the BLM agents from the photos and charge them all with terrorism.


Yeah, there's the rub. "Legally" is a trivial hurdle. "Rightfully" is what the entire fight is about.

Consider that executing Jim Crow laws, fugitive slave laws, and interning the Japanese were also the US government legally executing its authority.

As to the NSA -- do you think something like that would lead to less of this, or more?
 
2014-04-15 11:46:44 AM

hubiestubert: thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.

Well, there is perhaps a little conspiracy going on. After 20 years of this crap, you'd think that someone might have gone after this asshat a bit earlier. I don't think that the timing is so much of a particular issue, as someone finally got fed up with his BS and decided to finally call him on it. Someone has been covering for his ass for a while, and now that they're gone, things are steamrolling ahead.


Or it could be that the last court cases was heard. The court case in 1998 ruled that he had to remove the cattle and it seems that he made a slight effort but then let them go back over the years leading to another court action in 2012 that just ended.
 
2014-04-15 11:47:42 AM

hubiestubert: thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.

Well, there is perhaps a little conspiracy going on. After 20 years of this crap, you'd think that someone might have gone after this asshat a bit earlier. I don't think that the timing is so much of a particular issue, as someone finally got fed up with his BS and decided to finally call him on it. Someone has been covering for his ass for a while, and now that they're gone, things are steamrolling ahead.


Nonsense, stuff just happens. Only stupid, crazy, people think otherwise.
 
2014-04-15 11:47:49 AM

hubiestubert: thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.

Well, there is perhaps a little conspiracy going on. After 20 years of this crap, you'd think that someone might have gone after this asshat a bit earlier. I don't think that the timing is so much of a particular issue, as someone finally got fed up with his BS and decided to finally call him on it. Someone has been covering for his ass for a while, and now that they're gone, things are steamrolling ahead.


The last court case was in August 2013, this is just the actions resulting from that decision. He's been dragging it out in the courts for years and courts are slow so long as nobody is pressing for quick resolutions.
 
2014-04-15 11:48:23 AM

neversubmit: Does that mean you have never heard of the Streisand effect? LOL You act as if everything happens in a vacuum and if you need that... well fine, enjoy.


Where did I say I never heard of it? Also what makes you think I believe everything happens in a vacuum. You are making loads of logical leaps, if you need that to make an argument you have some issues.
 
2014-04-15 11:48:59 AM

notto: Danger Mouse:

Why wouldn't you arrest Bundy? Trying to conficaste the cattle seems...dumb. It's not like repossessing a car.

wouldn't you arrange a court date, if he doesn't show, then a warrent is issued? This seems like a farked up way to handle non payment of taxes, no?

They are removing cattle from federal land land - it's more like towing a car that has been parked overnight on a public street illegally.

This isn't just a  tax issue.    You can't graze your cattle in the public square.  They will be removed.

Do you think that you would have the right to just go ahead and start grazing cattle on any public property you wish?  If you did, would that just be a tax issue?

You seem to be building a strawman to knock down.  You seem to be the only one who considers this a tax issue.  Even Bundy doesn't believe it is.


No. I'm not building a straw man.  There was a time where you could indeed use public property for you animals to graze,They were called commons.   I was under the impression that Bundy and others could uses these open puvlic lands to graze if they paid a $ per head of cattle -which Bundy refused to do and owed  what was estimated to be aprox $1m in back fees/taxes.
 
2014-04-15 11:49:53 AM

neversubmit: thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.

Conspiracy? What conspiracy? I don't see any conspiracy happening, just business as usual, the only odd thing about it is people paying attention to it.  You are the only one talking about conspiracies, what does that do for you?


I am the only one using the WORD conspiracy, but you are still talking about it...
 
2014-04-15 11:50:22 AM
This needs to be mentioned again:

Cliven Bundy says he acknowledges Nevada law, but not federal law. But Nevada law expressly acknowledges the supremacy of federal law, and condemns the conduct of domestic terrorists like Cliven Bundy.

Will this reality impact the behavior of Cliven Bundy or his band of gun toting thugs? Don't count on it. Cliven Bundy and his supporters are nothing more than sociopaths. Bundy's refusal to surrender despite this clause conclusively proves he acknowledges no law whatsoever. He's just a self-entitled criminal with a moderately advanced knowledge of PR tactics.

I hope this "man" dies in the deepest darkest loneliest pit at ADX Florence.

From the Nevada Constitution:

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.
 
2014-04-15 11:51:47 AM

CRtwenty: Even before the BLM existed the land was still owned by the Government. Are you saying that the Government isn't allowed to change the rules for using their own land?


Some parts of the west are still governed by covenants originally signed with Spain.
 
2014-04-15 11:51:57 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Republican has cows eating grass

[cdn.rt.com image 410x230]

Undocumented democrats flowing across the border, costing billions?
[vote29.com image 409x265]

[img.fark.net image 160x186]


Stop lying.
 
2014-04-15 11:52:03 AM

Felgraf: way south: Even if it means having extreme patience and suffering the company of idiots for a few years. Its better than a shootout.

It took two decades to get to this point.

Exactly how much patience should they have?

Should people just not have to follow laws they don't feel like following?


The US government wont even follow the laws it passes on itself, so whats the point? Yes, eventually Bundy will die of old age... which will be much better than a shootout. "Way South" is right, at what point did BLM decide it needs a SWAT team? We're quibbling over land that no one else is using (not even the turtle), and arguing - "oh, so he can just ignore the law eh?!" is ridiculous since corporations, illegal immigrants, congress, and unions all get to ignore the law, Bundy does too.

/a firefight here would have been stupid. The government can do way worse through legal and peaceful means.
 
2014-04-15 11:53:17 AM

Silly_Sot: If they were planning on putting women up as human shields, then they were terrorists.


... who were they terrorizing?
 
2014-04-15 11:53:23 AM

thaylin: neversubmit: Does that mean you have never heard of the Streisand effect? LOL You act as if everything happens in a vacuum and if you need that... well fine, enjoy.

Where did I say I never heard of it? Also what makes you think I believe everything happens in a vacuum. You are making loads of logical leaps, if you need that to make an argument you have some issues.


Well you've convinced me you are right and I am wrong. Please come back for the follow up. gtg
 
2014-04-15 11:54:21 AM

neversubmit: Google cache

Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.


That's a great link... Here's something that was buried pretty deeply(As in all around your quote):

Examples of Recent Incidents of Private Property Damage Caused by Bundy's Trespass Cattle
One feral cow was hit by an automobile within Lake Mead National Recreation Area.  Cattle are frequently seen on public roads, including State Route 170 and pose a danger to vehicles and to members of the public traveling on public roads.
Overton Wildlife Refuge (State of Nevada) employee attacked by a Bundy bull.
Crop destroyed by Bundy cattle on private land.
Mesquite Heritage Community Garden damaged by trespass cattle.
Mesquite golf course damaged by trespass cattle.


Examples of Restoration Funding and Viability Impacted
A $400,000 matching grant to restore Southwest Willow Flycatcher habitat along the Virgin River from the Walton Family Foundation was withdrawn until the trespass cattle have been removed. 
A $160,000 Southern Nevada Public Land Management Act project to restore Southwestern Willow Flycatcher has been delayed until trespass cattle are removed.
Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.
The Nevada State Department of Wildlife has built extensive fences to protect state and federal lands protected as the Overton Wildlife Refuge from the trespass cattle.


Examples of Public Concerns
Residents of the communities of Bunkerville and Mesquite have complained about the impact of cattle on city facilities. 
Within the last month, letters requesting action have also been received from several individuals, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest. 
The Center for Biological Diversity has demanded action to resolve trespass in designated critical desert tortoise habitat in several letters. 
Western Watersheds has requested a verbal status update and later filed a Freedom of Information Act request.


Examples of Natural and Cultural Resource Damage
Cattle have crushed artifacts at the "Red Racer" and St. Thomas cultural sites.
Damage to springs, including fecal contamination, trampling soils and vegetation and impacts to wildlife. Wildlife will avoid springs with large numbers of cattle.
Damage to springs with sensitive amphibians, including the rare relict leopard frog.
Multiple instances of vegetation damage to rare plants, including on monitoring plots after extensive wildfires within critical habitat for Desert Tortoise.
Unauthorized reservoir constructed with bulldozer twice.


Now, onto the "Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone"...
Here it is:
blmsolar.anl.gov
http://blmsolar.anl.gov/sez/nv/dry-lake/
Now, let's look at a Google Map for "Bunkerville, NV"

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bunkerville,+NV­/­[nospam-﹫-backwards]6­3*7219429,-114.1 37 86,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x80cbd54ec0ad6e5f:0x353eb5bdcea1bf77

Wow, it's bordered on the North by I-15, and the West, South and East bty Lake Mead Recreational Area. I wonder where that is in relation to the "Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone"?
 Let's look at my poor skills with the Windows 7 Snipping Tool...

img.fark.net

The bottom red circle is about where 'Gold Butte' is located, and the upper red circle is where Bunkervile is. See the highlighted area? That's your 'Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone'. That's a pretty stupid place to have offsite facilities for a proposed solar plant... See all of the natural geologic barriers, as well as the lack of any real roads?

The guy has been illegally grazing his cattle for 20 years, his neighbors are pissed, the residents of Mesquite are pissed, his cows are trampling protected sites, and someone keeps illegally digging reservoirs to water these cattle.

I'm sure the feds were just DYING to place an offsite facility in a place that would take hours upon hours to get to.
 
2014-04-15 11:55:28 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Republican has cows eating grass

[cdn.rt.com image 410x230]

Undocumented democrats flowing across the border, costing billions?
[vote29.com image 409x265]

[img.fark.net image 160x186]


"My original argument got shredded to pieces, so now I'm going to post a non-sequitor straw man with pictures"
 
2014-04-15 11:56:19 AM

This text is now purple: TuteTibiImperes: Anyone who seriously considers using firepower against the US government because the government is legally and rightfully executing its authority shouldn't be permitted to own a gun.

The NSA should track down everyone shown pointing guns at the BLM agents from the photos and charge them all with terrorism.


Yeah, there's the rub. "Legally" is a trivial hurdle. "Rightfully" is what the entire fight is about.


No, no it's not.  If you believe that, then you also believe that the conclusion of this round of the fight conclusively proves that might makes right.
 
2014-04-15 11:56:20 AM
dr_blasto: It worked really well; except that now, you've got groups of original homesteader family descendents doing their level best to fark shiat up for everyone around them. They've gotten entire tracts of land handed to them for nothing, yet complain.

Yeah, that annoys the fark out of me. i just waned to clarify that I stand behind the concept of the Homestead Act, but we appear to be on the same page here...
 
2014-04-15 11:57:23 AM

meat0918: IlGreven: meat0918: Danger Mouse: So why were they trying to arrest the cows? They did nothing wrong. thy're just cows for farks sake. wouldn't you arrest Bundy?

Seems like there are ways to resolve this without sending in armed rangers for what's basically a tax issue.

They'll summon Bundy to court once his cattle trespass again.

Regardless of whether or not If Bundy is dumb enough to show up, they'll find him in contempt, and arrest him.

He's smart enough to not show up though, unless he really believes the sovereign citizen crap and thinks they can't actually arrest him.

...and then when they come to arrest him, he summons back those 1,500 people who were defending him, and we're back at square one.  And yet again, this ends peacefully (with him getting away with it) or justly (with the government with blood on its hands), but not both (where 90% of the "rational solutions" would be if both parties were rational actors, except one party isn't.)

They aren't going to go out to his ranch to arrest him.  It's too dangerous.  They'll let him come to them.


And after this standoff, do you think he'll ever be going off his property again? Especially when he now knows he has a few friends at his beck and call?
 
2014-04-15 11:57:31 AM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Sgt Otter: jntaylor63:

What amazes me on this is all of the local and national GOP support this guy was getting.  This man is a deadbeat and DOES NOT PAY HIS taxes.  Isn't this guy a moocher?  A taker?

I've seen a few Sovereign Citizens driving around on interstate highways or other publicly-funded roads with home-made "Private Use: Government Exempt" license plates.

[crasstalk.com image 500x267]

It's not mooching when it's a white conservative, I guess.

There should be a law making it legal to run anyone with a plate like that off the road, then beat them to death with a tire iron.


Tire iron? I'd just use my willy to flail them into submission...
 
2014-04-15 11:58:57 AM

Repo Man: This has been mentioned before, but it still amazes me; it's as though they think those words are magic spells. Say the right words in the right order, and they have to let you go. It's like a Jedi mind trick. They go to these conferences, and they are taught this nonsense, and they believe it.


It would be idiotic if the court system didn't occasionally resemble the workings of alchemy, and if just and unjust weren't so different from right and wrong and true and false.
 
2014-04-15 11:59:17 AM

TNel: neversubmit: Does that mean you have never heard of the Streisand effect? LOL You act as if everything happens in a vacuum and if you need that... well fine, enjoy.

Can't you retards atleast stop just quoting the entire thing making it a wall of text?  Jesus you guys are worse than old people with the FW:FW:FW:FW:FW:FW:FW: emails


If you post from a lot of the browsers on an Android device, I can attest to the fact that quoting isn't possible, neither is marking up with bold, italics, underline, etc... Don't know about iOS, but I think Opera is the only browser I've used on my phone or tablet that gives me the editing capabilities of Fark, including only selecting the text you want to quote and/or reply to.
 
2014-04-15 12:01:46 PM

Danger Mouse: I was under the impression that Bundy and others could uses these open puvlic lands to graze if they paid a $ per head of cattle -which Bundy refused to do and owed  what was estimated to be aprox $1m in back fees/taxes.


Yes, it's still allowed all over the place. The fark of it is, they get a killing on those grazing fees, far less than itr would cost if they owned land, and the shiatstain is STILL complaining.
 
2014-04-15 12:03:52 PM

Deep Contact: They love death and torture.


He says, from behind his keyboard, giggling and eating cheetos.
 
2014-04-15 12:04:36 PM

HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: BTW, the article merely says they considered it, that it was a possible strategy, not that they actually agreed on it.

From a public relations standpoint, it makes sense.  Especially if they are unarmed.  Make the other side look like the bad guys.

To a gun nut, using women as human shields is good public relations.

Doesn't matter if it's a gun nut, or Occupy Wall Street.  In fact, OWS used a bunch of different groups, including elderly women and children.

"It's not bad when *WE* do it!".

I don't recall anyone in OWS being armed and threatening to shoot federal employees while hiding behind women. You're a farking lunatic.


He and all of Bundy's apologists are sane. They're just evil.

Did I mention that the Nevada Constitution, which Bundy claims to acknowledge as legitimate, expressly acknowledges the legitimacy and supremacy of the federal government, and specifically condemns the acts of domestic terrorists like Cliven Bundy and his band of thug supporters?

Oh, you say I did mention that? Well I don't think it hurts to cover it again. From the Nevada Constitution:

The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

I don't know about you. But I'd personally be in favor of respecting Nevada's state sovereignty here.

By using some armed force to compel obedience to federal authority. Just like their constitution specifies.

Respect states' rights: jail the sociopath Cliven Bundy and his army of America haters NOW.
 
2014-04-15 12:04:41 PM

Mikey1969: Don't know about iOS, but I think Opera is the only browser I've used on my phone or tablet that gives me the editing capabilities of Fark, including only selecting the text you want to quote and/or reply to.


Safari on iOS, as well as iOS Chrome make quoting and editing a post a nightmare.
 
2014-04-15 12:05:53 PM
Danger Mouse:

No. I'm not building a straw man.  There was a time where you could indeed use public property for you animals to graze,They were called commons.   I was under the impression that Bundy and others could uses these open puvlic lands to graze if they paid a $ per head of cattle -which Bundy refused to do and owed  what was estimated to be aprox $1m in back fees/taxes.

He has been ordered to get his cows off of the land.  Even if he was up to date on his fees (not taxes) he would still need to get his cattle off the land because grazing is no longer allowed on the site.

This is not a tax issue.
 
2014-04-15 12:06:16 PM

untaken_name: TuteTibiImperes: The Blaze is usually pretty suspect when it comes to accuracy of reporting, but if they're going to call out a conservative group for being a bunch of calculating cowards, I'll tend to believe them.

Good ol' confirmation bias. They're not trustworthy unless they agree with your preconceived notions. Interesting. Besides, I keep hearing how women shouldn't be kept from front-line combat. TheBlaze is just less misogynistic than you are, with your assumptions that women would obviously be worse at gunfighting than men. Sexist.


Know how I can tell you didn't RTFA?

The source actually admits that the strategy was to use women on the front lines specifically so that they would be seen getting shot.  So that's not about treating women as equals, it's about playing for shock value and viewing women as disposable.

And while there's plenty of confirmation bias all round, the point is that Glenn Beck's site is NOT a "news" site, but an opinion site that is unapologetically biased, and to see an item like this on a source that would generally be first in line to back this moronic "principled stand" is unusual enough to warrant comment.  It lends additional credibility that the guy you'd expect to back them is calling them on their shiat.
 
2014-04-15 12:06:23 PM

MechaPyx: Pangea: meat0918: Danger Mouse: So why were they trying to arrest the cows? They did nothing wrong. thy're just cows for farks sake. wouldn't you arrest Bundy?

Seems like there are ways to resolve this without sending in armed rangers for what's basically a tax issue.

They'll summon Bundy to court once his cattle trespass again.

Regardless of whether or not If Bundy is dumb enough to show up, they'll find him in contempt, and arrest him.

He's smart enough to not show up though, unless he really believes the sovereign citizen crap and thinks they can't actually arrest him.

He doesn't own nearly enough land to support the cattle. If they don't stay on the federal land they'll starve to death.

The cattle are in a continuous state of trespass.

So in other words dude needs to either buy more land or get rid of some cows and he's been unwilling to do either.


The US government would be totally fine with a third option.

Pay the well established fees associated with allowing private citizens access to federal lands, on which the cattle can then legally graze.
 
2014-04-15 12:06:33 PM

IlGreven: This text is now purple: TuteTibiImperes: Anyone who seriously considers using firepower against the US government because the government is legally and rightfully executing its authority shouldn't be permitted to own a gun.

The NSA should track down everyone shown pointing guns at the BLM agents from the photos and charge them all with terrorism.

Yeah, there's the rub. "Legally" is a trivial hurdle. "Rightfully" is what the entire fight is about.

No, no it's not.  If you believe that, then you also believe that the conclusion of this round of the fight conclusively proves that might makes right.


What on earth are you going on about?

The argument was this: Anyone who seriously considers using firepower against the US government because the government is legally and rightfully executing its authority shouldn't be permitted to own a gun.

The problem with this statement is that no one involved here fulfills all the requirements. The various parties who were considering taking arms were doing so because they either believe it was not legal or not rightful. I tend to consider "not rightful" the more meaningful argument, because legality is trivial for a sovereign entity to assert. Many injustices are asserted under cover of legality. That's a stickier argument for rightful.
 
2014-04-15 12:08:39 PM

Mikey1969: Danger Mouse: I was under the impression that Bundy and others could uses these open puvlic lands to graze if they paid a $ per head of cattle -which Bundy refused to do and owed  what was estimated to be aprox $1m in back fees/taxes.

Yes, it's still allowed all over the place. The fark of it is, they get a killing on those grazing fees, far less than itr would cost if they owned land, and the shiatstain is STILL complaining.


And less than if the federal government charged market value for the grazing fees. It's a taxpayer subsidy for the beef industry. But Cliven Bundy feels self-entitled to more. So self-entitled, he's willing to use women as human shields to get it.
 
2014-04-15 12:10:31 PM

This text is now purple: IlGreven: This text is now purple: TuteTibiImperes: Anyone who seriously considers using firepower against the US government because the government is legally and rightfully executing its authority shouldn't be permitted to own a gun.

The NSA should track down everyone shown pointing guns at the BLM agents from the photos and charge them all with terrorism.

Yeah, there's the rub. "Legally" is a trivial hurdle. "Rightfully" is what the entire fight is about.

No, no it's not.  If you believe that, then you also believe that the conclusion of this round of the fight conclusively proves that might makes right.

What on earth are you going on about?

The argument was this: Anyone who seriously considers using firepower against the US government because the government is legally and rightfully executing its authority shouldn't be permitted to own a gun.

The problem with this statement is that no one involved here fulfills all the requirements. The various parties who were considering taking arms were doing so because they either believe it was not legal or not rightful. I tend to consider "not rightful" the more meaningful argument, because legality is trivial for a sovereign entity to assert. Many injustices are asserted under cover of legality. That's a stickier argument for rightful.


You state the argument, then twist the argument. It is not up to the people to determine if they believe the action was legal or not, that is for the courts to decide, otherwise every single statement like this has an easy way out for everyone.
 
2014-04-15 12:11:52 PM

IlGreven: Again, this can have a peaceful end (in which case he gets away with his transgression and emboldens many others to do similar), or it can end justly (in which case, however it gets there, the federal government will have to fire on him and his supporters, thus getting blood on their hands and making him a martyr, and emboldening many others to do similar).  It cannot have both.


ftfy
 
2014-04-15 12:15:17 PM

Sgt Otter: jntaylor63:

What amazes me on this is all of the local and national GOP support this guy was getting.  This man is a deadbeat and DOES NOT PAY HIS taxes.  Isn't this guy a moocher?  A taker?

I've seen a few Sovereign Citizens driving around on interstate highways or other publicly-funded roads with home-made "Private Use: Government Exempt" license plates.

[crasstalk.com image 500x267]

It's not mooching when it's a white conservative, I guess.


I think we should deport them as non-citizens. I mean, if they really are sovereigns exempt from US law, that means they are illegal immigrants. Being illegal immigrants, they must be deported. I'm sure we could find somewhere to send them, some country they'd like better.
 
2014-04-15 12:17:51 PM

dr_blasto: The last court case was in August 2013, this is just the actions resulting from that decision. He's been dragging it out in the courts for years and courts are slow so long as nobody is pressing for quick resolutions.


Yea but those courts probably displayed flags with gold fringe making the court decisions non-binding.
 
2014-04-15 12:19:23 PM

Satanic_Hamster: SirGeorgeBurkelwitzIII: I am astonished there is anyone at all defending Bundy on this. He's so blatantly in the wrong, his position is pretty much indefensible.

This thread has been a useful tool in exposing the most worthless idiots on Fark. I'm just disgusted.

A few people have surprised me, to be honest.  This thread has separated a few people from being far right wing douches from the out right trolls.


On the plus side, there have been several people for whom I hold more respect than than I did before this whole Bundy thing hit Fark.  Mainly people whom I had marked down as right wing nutjobs who have demonstrated that, while their politics may differ greatly from mine, are not the complete idiots I had feared they were.
 
2014-04-15 12:19:32 PM

thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.


Excuse me, but you've been the low IQ rep on this thread, offering nothing but gratuitous insults, and blatant denials of obvious pieces of evidence that have been put directly in front of you on your magic computer screen to contradict you.  Please show some citations and documented history that backs your position, and stop with the ad hominem insults.
 
2014-04-15 12:21:35 PM

Graffito: reubendaley: Felgraf: way south: Even if it means having extreme patience and suffering the company of idiots for a few years. Its better than a shootout.

It took two decades to get to this point.

Exactly how much patience should they have?

Should people just not have to follow laws they don't feel like following?

If you and I let someone continue to take advantage of us, we eventually lose our right to compensation. I still don't know whether Bundy was a tenant or a trespasser but unlike the BLM, private citizens lose the right to seek damages after a period of time (Statute of Limitations, typically 3 years). If Bundy had done the same thing to another private landowner, I doubt that the private citizen would have stood by idly like the BLM appears to have done. So while Bundy may be in the wrong, this seems to be yet another example of government ineptitude. If Bundy was in violation of BLM rules, whose job was it to know it, whose job was it to deal with it once it was known or should have been known, and why didn't they do their job? If I don't do my job I don't have a job. If government is going to undertake to do a job, shouldn't they be held to the same standards as the citizens?

Let me ask you something?  If someone commits welfare fraud does it bother you?   If that person gets away with it for 3 years should it no longer be considered a crime?  What about illegal immigrants?  If they've managed to live here for 3 years would you grant them green cards?  What about the state of Tennessee's failure to process rape kits?  Doe that gov't incompetence turn those rapes into non-crimes?  Your support of Bundy is just as ridiculous.  You and I and our children are the victims of Bundy's welfare fraud.

Why don't you want him to pay up?


I wonder, if they had done this within three years of Bundy failing to pay the fines, would reub then be whining how mean and fast acting and unfair the federal government is?
 
2014-04-15 12:22:15 PM

This text is now purple: way south: One could say that it was an example of what happens when you don't leave people alone.
Of course we can't know what was really going through McVeigh's head, but revenge was among the theories. Abuses by the fed aren't soon forgotten or forgiven by some people.

McVeigh was pretty open that his motive was reprisal for Waco and Ruby Ridge.




Aye, that's what he said.
The question is if he would have not been a terrorist if the fed had not botched both situations. There's no way to prove he wouldn't have found some other grievance to base his attack on.
Violent farkwits never think they're in the wrong. They always find a justification.
 
2014-04-15 12:23:02 PM

Delay: Due to work I travel to Utah and Nevada quite often. There is a tremendous number of people that side with Bundy and his militia types. Why? He's not an underdog. Bundy is a wealthy man. Most ranchers are. Given the size of his herd that's over $1million every year in income. These folks really have given up on the idea that "government by the people" works.

They are large in number. They seem to be ready, "I'm ready to pull the trigger if fired upon," one of the anti-government activists said. This right-wing movement is not going away anytime soon. Legal arguments are not going to persuade them. Telling them that the government they despise is the representative government the founding fathers assembled does not persuade them. They believe the US is ruled by despots, elections are rigged and there are millions of deadbeats, usually dark skinned, who get a free ride on a permanent basis.

It makes zero sense unless you hear how adamant the US right wing has become.


abortionsforall.files.wordpress.com

And then it makes less than zero sense.
 
2014-04-15 12:24:08 PM

scotchlandia: The US government wont even follow the laws it passes on itself, so whats the point? Yes, eventually Bundy will die of old age... which will be much better than a shootout.


You don't think he's got children who will pick up the gauntlet? He routinely talks about the many generations his people have been using that land.

This doesn't end with him.
 
2014-04-15 12:24:20 PM

trappedspirit: IlGreven: Again, this can have a peaceful end (in which case he gets away with his transgression and emboldens many others to do similar), or it can end justly (in which case, however it gets there, the federal government will have to fire on him and his supporters, thus getting blood on their hands and making him a martyr, and emboldening many others to do similar).  It cannot have both.

ftfy


Actually, the simple way is to just kill the cows when they graze illegally. Send him a registered letter, post a few signs, and take an ad out in the local papers. Pretty cheap really. Then just let a couple choppers, tanks, and LAV's have some fun target practice if he tries to graze there again without ponying up the cash and getting the permits.

Unless he's got enough people to shield every single cow, he'll get the message quick. He can try suing the government for the value lost, and they can counter sue for back payments, penalties, fines for illegal grazing, and add in the cost of the crews / ammo to enforce the ban when they had to wipe out his herd.

Poetic in a way.
 
2014-04-15 12:25:02 PM

Mikey1969: They don't need this guy's goddamn "land", there are a billion better places in Nevada to build this plant, and the state is 81% federal land


No one is taking this guys land.  Are you sure you're in the right thread?  The reason I ask is that you seem to be talking about an entirely different series of events.

grumpfuff: dittybopper: TFA SAYS THEY MERELY CONSIDERED IT AS AN OPTION, NOT THAT THEY NECESSARILY IMPLEMENTED IT.

IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT THEY IMPLEMENTED IT, EVEN CONSIDERING IT AS AN OPTION IS FARKING VILE, DISGUSTING, AND COWARDLY.


I'm sure that if one of dittybopper's neighbors came up and told them they had a written plan to rape his mother, had all the items already in a bag ready to go, but decided against it, I'm sure he'd be fine with it.
 
2014-04-15 12:25:28 PM

thaylin: You state the argument, then twist the argument. It is not up to the people to determine if they believe the action was legal or not, that is for the courts to decide, otherwise every single statement like this has an easy way out for everyone.


There is another problem:

The leader of this... "resistance movement" claims to acknowledge the legitimacy of Nevada's constitution. But that constitution expressly vests the power of dispute resolution with the United States Supreme Court, and by necessary implication, lower United States courts. Those courts have spoken here.

The simple fact is, neither Cliven Bundy nor his gang of thugs recognize any law whatsoever except their own. They're just sociopaths. Everyone who showed up with a gun to protect this "man" should be disarmed for life.

You hear that purple? Nevada's constitutional "paramount allegiance" clause means Bundy and his supporters can't even frame a good faith argument for the righteousness of their cause. They are lawless thug criminals. Nothing more.
 
2014-04-15 12:27:29 PM

lantawa: thaylin: neversubmit: The most unsettling aspect of this new era of insanity isn't the low level of intellect required to accept this ever growing list of coincidences. Stupid people are nothing new, after all. What should frighten all honest thinkers is the level of laziness and arrogance required to passively accept the cartoonishly fake version of reality put forward by corporate media. It's beyond a simple inability to think critically. There seems to be a palpable hatred, an open contempt for the very concept of critical thought, as if a large portion of the human population have simply thrown in the towel and have begun to run as fast as they can from this very human quality.

No, the most unsettling aspect of this is the low level of intellect required to accept the conspiracy that you keep trying to claim is going on.

Excuse me, but you've been the low IQ rep on this thread, offering nothing but gratuitous insults, and blatant denials of obvious pieces of evidence that have been put directly in front of you on your magic computer screen to contradict you.  Please show some citations and documented history that backs your position, and stop with the ad hominem insults.


I dont think you know what an ad hominem is. Since I did not attack him personally, but his statement, and used his own statement itself, if there was an ad hominem it would be him. As for sources and citations, I have already provided all of that through out the posts. Your decider to not read them in no way counters any of that. As for obvious peices of evidence I would also have to point you back to questioning our understanding of the words, since they are not "obvious evidence", but misrepresented data that has been dis-proven by both sides of the dispute.
 
2014-04-15 12:29:05 PM

JohnnyC: After seeing things like that dude with the rifle aimed at people from behind that cement embankment and the various other asshats threatening violence if they don't get their way.... The obvious conclusion I'm lead to there is that those people want an opportunity to shoot their fellow Americans.

Given that the government folks backed off a bit out of fear of safety for everyone involved, I can only conclude that they aren't interested in shooting their fellow Americans (or even seeing anyone get hurt).

So whether or not the "militia" folks were planning on using women as a shield or not... it doesn't seem very hard to figure out who the good folks are here.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure the only people who are impressed by these "militia" folks are other people who really want an opportunity to shoot their fellow Americans as well.


Well said
 
2014-04-15 12:29:28 PM

ciberido: On the plus side, there have been several people for whom I hold more respect than than I did before this whole Bundy thing hit Fark. Mainly people whom I had marked down as right wing nutjobs who have demonstrated that, while their politics may differ greatly from mine, are not the complete idiots I had feared they were.


Unless, however, they're running the OTHER troll accounts and want to build up the cred of their OTHER troll accounts by not being TOTALLY insane.
 
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