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(Talking Points Memo)   Bundy Ranch 'militia' had strict women-first policy...in case of firefights with federal agency officers   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 673
    More: Asinine, Ted Bundy, Bundy Ranch, police officers, firefighters, foreign exchange reserves  
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12470 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2014 at 7:05 AM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-15 07:48:16 AM

dittybopper: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: BTW, the article merely says they considered it, that it was a possible strategy, not that they actually agreed on it.

From a public relations standpoint, it makes sense.  Especially if they are unarmed.  Make the other side look like the bad guys.

To a gun nut, using women as human shields is good public relations.

Doesn't matter if it's a gun nut, or Occupy Wall Street.  In fact, OWS used a bunch of different groups, including elderly women and children.

"It's not bad when *WE* do it!".


Were they heavily armed and eager for a gun battle with law enforcement? Did they set up sniper positions? Brandish arms? *really*?

/Seriously, you really feel sympathy for these assholes, dont' you? You're even trying to conflate them as 'the same' as OWS, because Reasons.
 
2014-04-15 07:48:23 AM

untaken_name: Good ol' confirmation bias. They're not trustworthy unless they agree with your preconceive


You don't see a difference between a fighter and a human shield? Interesting.
 
2014-04-15 07:49:03 AM

Cold_Sassy: jntaylor63: HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: You know if you ignore these people, they go away.

How does that work? They showed up to defend a wealthy deadbeat. Uncle Sam is going to collect.

THIS.

File tax leans, cut off whatever AG support he can file for, seize his bank accounts.

What amazes me on this is all of the local and national GOP support this guy was getting.  This man is a deadbeat and DOES NOT PAY HIS taxes.  Isn't this guy a moocher?  A taker?

I can think of a LOT of other "Americans" that don't pay taxes who deal drugs, take drugs, join gangs,  sit around on their a*s all day and see how many women they can knock up.  How is this guy any worse?


That's you're defense of this farking clown?
 
2014-04-15 07:49:38 AM
It sure would be nice to see heavily armed government agents down on the sout
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2014-04-15 07:49:49 AM
dittybopper:

Doesn't matter if it's a gun nut, or Occupy Wall Street.  In fact, OWS used a bunch of different groups, including elderly women and children.

"It's not bad when *WE* do it!".


Yes, having women and children protest is exactly the same as using women and children as human shields in a shootout.
 
2014-04-15 07:49:53 AM

Spanky McStupid: If this is true, this makes the Bundy people no better than Al Quida (or however the hell that bunch spells their organization's name.)


Al Queso?
 
2014-04-15 07:50:01 AM

vpb: dittybopper:

I know that's supposed to make people think you are smart, but it actually does the opposite.

Except with people who are familiar with Glen Beck.


Well, there you go again.
 
2014-04-15 07:50:48 AM
untaken_name: Good ol' confirmation bias. They're not trustworthy unless they agree with your preconceived notions. Interesting. Besides, I keep hearing how women shouldn't be kept from front-line combat. TheBlaze is just less misogynistic than you are, with your assumptions that women would obviously be worse at gunfighting than men. Sexist.

You don't see a difference between a fighter and a human shield? Interesting.

/this time, without the cat laying on the keyboard.
 
2014-04-15 07:50:57 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Senator Harry Reid's son, Rory Reid (try saying that name ten times as fast as you can), is the primary representative for ENN energy group, a Chinese energy company involved in a $5 billion solar project planned for Clark County Nevada, on the on land where the Bundy ranch is located. First source: Reuters: Aug 31, 2012. Well this is interesting. It turns out that the conflicts of interest in this project were well documented, but Harry pushed it through anyway. He pushed it through in spite of the controversy that was stirred up when the land was sold to ENN for $4.5 million dollars even though separate appraisals valued the land at between $29.6 million and $38.6 million.


Oh christ this lie again?

No.
A) The Chinese group pulled out. IN 2013

B) The proposed site was *TWO HUNDRED MILES AWAY*

C) The issue with Bundy HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR TWO DECADES.

People are playing you for a fool, and you're falling into their hands.
 
2014-04-15 07:51:30 AM

Brick-House: It sure would be nice to see heavily armed government agents down on the sout


Southern border keeping the flood of people and drugs at bay
 
2014-04-15 07:51:56 AM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: The Muthaship: As Sun Tzu said, "Avoid what is strong, attack what is weak".

Of course, Sun Tzu also said crap like, "Generally, operations of war require one thousand fast four-horse chariots, one thousand four-horse wagons covered in leather, and one hundred thousand mailed troops," so what does he know?


War hasn't actually changed at all in the fundamentals. Be it ants, chimps, or humans in any epoch, the fundamentals remain the same. That's why Starcraft, the US military, and the Mongols all use the Zerg Rush.
 
2014-04-15 07:52:04 AM

Ivandrago: JohnnyC: HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: You know if you ignore these people, they go away.

How does that work? They showed up to defend a wealthy deadbeat. Uncle Sam is going to collect.

I don't think they even really care about him. I think they're just looking for a fight and this was the best opportunity for one that they could find. They just wanted the authorities to shoot first so they could satisfy their itchy trigger fingers and claim that they didn't start it.

The funny thing is that I don't think most of them realize that you're not allowed to get into a gun battle with the government. No matter how patriotic you think you're being. The instances where it's not illegal to shoot a cop are pretty narrow and I don't think "because 'Murica" and "Muslim Socialist President" and "Muh Freedoms!" are going to fly in court when you're looking at multiple counts of murder and attempted murder.


Most of those kinds of folks "don't recognize the court" (including this Bundy guy). Sovereign citizens... gold fringe flag conspiracies about "admiralty courts"... and all that other nonsense. We're talking about people who aren't really operating in the same plane of reality that the rest of us are. They're not thinking about court... they're thinking that if they can get the fed to start the firefight that somehow it'll end with them burning the White House to the ground and forming some new government under their rule.
 
2014-04-15 07:52:42 AM

jntaylor63: What amazes me on this is all of the local and national GOP support this guy was getting. This man is a deadbeat and DOES NOT PAY HIS taxes.


That right there would be why he's a hero to the right, as they seem to think all taxes are theft.

TuteTibiImperes: The Blaze is usually pretty suspect when it comes to accuracy of reporting, but if they're going to call out a conservative group for being a bunch of calculating cowards, I'll tend to believe them. It's against their agenda to make the Bundy folks look bad, so I can't see any reason why they'd make that up.


Ironically, using women and children as shields was something MOVE did here in Philadelphia and Jim Jones did in Guyana.  Also, the Branch Davidians at Waco, but I'm betting money it's a technique developed on the political Left.
 
2014-04-15 07:52:50 AM

Brick-House: Brick-House: It sure would be nice to see heavily armed government agents down on the sout

Southern border keeping the flood of people and drugs at bay


Are you blind or something?
 
2014-04-15 07:53:10 AM

dittybopper: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: BTW, the article merely says they considered it, that it was a possible strategy, not that they actually agreed on it.

From a public relations standpoint, it makes sense.  Especially if they are unarmed.  Make the other side look like the bad guys.

To a gun nut, using women as human shields is good public relations.

Doesn't matter if it's a gun nut, or Occupy Wall Street.  In fact, OWS used a bunch of different groups, including elderly women and children.

"It's not bad when *WE* do it!".


I don't to many people from OWS sitting behind concrete walls and drawing a bead on Federal Agents. Even with a rather extensive exposure to right wing radio and groups, the worst that was ever recorded was someone taking a dump on a cop car.* 

*There is also the whole "stop raping people" thing, but I haven't seen an evidence to support the allegation.
 
2014-04-15 07:53:37 AM

doglover: It's how you beat the US. You can't win against the US government in a firefight or the courts. They're too big and too powerful. But they're HIGHLY vulnerable to bad press and pretty bipolar of government.

You just have make the problem thorny enough for them to back down or do something stupid. When they do either, the little guy can win. That's how the Taliban has been fighting the war Afganistan. Sure, we've got military superiority in the field, but they basically control the country no matter what we do because the country wants them. We kill one, two more pop up to avenge him a little later.

It's the same thing here. The women are just as batshiat crazy anti-govenment as the men. The difference is that if a few of them get shot, the whole country will rise up against the BLM, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THEIR(the women's) FAULT THEY WERE EVEN AT THE STUPID RANCH, and Bundy might just win his retarded little war.

Now there's various ways to counter all this without it coming to bloodshed, but if the BLM is as bungling as the ATF, don't be surprised if they're not even tried. But you have to give them militia people props. They know what their odds are.


The Afghans WANT the Taliban? You're farking crazy dude. They HATE the Taliban. In fact, public opinion in Afghanistan of the insurgents is so low that even blowing up a mosque to kill dozens of worshiping people inside does nothing. It literally can't sink any lower. That's why they can use bizarre tactics.
 
2014-04-15 07:54:30 AM
America is finally seeing how the obama administration treats citizens. 12 million illegal immigrants in the country, no problem. A rancher letting his cows eat some grass and It's time to send in the troops. It's disgusting how quickly barry will send storm troopers and snipers to harass and threaten American Citizens.
Why do democrats hate hard working Americans so much?
 
2014-04-15 07:54:50 AM
Maaaaarciaaaaaaaaa!
 
2014-04-15 07:54:50 AM

Lee451: I still say that if Bundy had been growing illegal marijuana on public land Fark would have an apoplectic fit from the self-righteous indignation,


And if he wore hot pants on Tuesdays we'd all be dying our hair purple.  Your point?
 
2014-04-15 07:55:18 AM

MythDragon: That's how I can watch Fox News without thinking Obongo Cuomo is gonna personaly come to my house to take my guns


Happy Tax/Gun Confiscation Day!

Oh, a Bundy thread.

1. Federal government land
2. Non-payment of fees
3. ??
4. Profit!
 
2014-04-15 07:55:34 AM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: WTF Indeed: You know if you ignore these people, they go away.

Except when they don't
[i676.photobucket.com image 465x363]




One could say that it was an example of what happens when you don't leave people alone.
Of course we can't know what was really going through McVeigh's head, but revenge was among the theories. Abuses by the fed aren't soon forgotten or forgiven by some people.

The pursuit of a legalistic solution can sometimes have terrible repercussions. Harry Reid may want to force everyone to their knees, but the direct method for doing so is likely to haunt us for decades.
Knowing this, the way out isn't by force. Blm needs to put its guns and body armor back in the locker and look for more negotiable alternatives for sharing the land. Even if it means having extreme patience and suffering the company of idiots for a few years. Its better than a shootout.

/and we need to ask why land managers are walking around like paramilitary thugs.
/seriously, once you're sending paper pushers to the scene with more than a clipboard you should know the plan is faulty.
 
2014-04-15 07:56:24 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Senator Harry Reid's son, Rory Reid (try saying that name ten times as fast as you can), is the primary representative for ENN energy group, a Chinese energy company involved in a $5 billion solar project planned for Clark County Nevada, on the on land where the Bundy ranch is located. First source: Reuters: Aug 31, 2012. Well this is interesting. It turns out that the conflicts of interest in this project were well documented, but Harry pushed it through anyway. He pushed it through in spite of the controversy that was stirred up when the land was sold to ENN for $4.5 million dollars even though separate appraisals valued the land at between $29.6 million and $38.6 million.


The blog you copied and pasted this from sucks.  Was it yours?
 
2014-04-15 07:56:35 AM
A tactic employed the world over.  No one cares if hardened soldiers are killed, but at least some will if women and/or children are.  Anytime there was a drone strike in Afghanistan, the U.S. would say they hit the target and the insurgents would say we hit a children's hospital or something like that.
 
2014-04-15 07:57:37 AM

way south: Even if it means having extreme patience and suffering the company of idiots for a few years. Its better than a shootout.


It took two decades to get to this point.

Exactly how much patience should they have?

Should people just not have to follow laws they don't feel like following?
 
2014-04-15 07:57:38 AM

Lee451: I still say that if Bundy had been growing illegal marijuana on public land Fark would have an apoplectic fit from the self-righteous indignation,


nah a lot of people would say he's an idiot for growing pot on public property

just because you're a moron doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want
 
2014-04-15 07:58:38 AM

doglover: It's how you beat the US. You can't win against the US government in a firefight or the courts. They're too big and too powerful. But they're HIGHLY vulnerable to bad press and pretty bipolar of government.

You just have make the problem thorny enough for them to back down or do something stupid. When they do either, the little guy can win. That's how the Taliban has been fighting the war Afganistan. Sure, we've got military superiority in the field, but they basically control the country no matter what we do because the country wants them. We kill one, two more pop up to avenge him a little later.

It's the same thing here. The women are just as batshiat crazy anti-govenment as the men. The difference is that if a few of them get shot, the whole country will rise up against the BLM, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THEIR(the women's) FAULT THEY WERE EVEN AT THE STUPID RANCH, and Bundy might just win his retarded little war.

Now there's various ways to counter all this without it coming to bloodshed, but if the BLM is as bungling as the ATF, don't be surprised if they're not even tried. But you have to give them militia people props. They know what their odds are.


You don't deserve an empire if you aren't willing to create a fresh heap of skulls, America. That includes domestic skulls.

It baffles me that this criminal is some kind of folk hero. "Little guy", my left one.
 
2014-04-15 07:58:48 AM
I wonder what these people think GWB would have done if he were in charge.
 
2014-04-15 07:59:00 AM

Because People in power are Stupid: [fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net image 521x350]
img.fark.net


Of course. When someone gets a freebie for twenty years, they become dependent on it, and see it as an entitlement.
 
2014-04-15 07:59:06 AM

doglover: Prank Call of Cthulhu: The Muthaship: As Sun Tzu said, "Avoid what is strong, attack what is weak".

Of course, Sun Tzu also said crap like, "Generally, operations of war require one thousand fast four-horse chariots, one thousand four-horse wagons covered in leather, and one hundred thousand mailed troops," so what does he know?

War hasn't actually changed at all in the fundamentals. Be it ants, chimps, or humans in any epoch, the fundamentals remain the same. That's why Starcraft, the US military, and the Mongols all use the Zerg Rush.


My (off topic) point is that I'm tired of people breaking out Sun Tzu quotes. About half of what he said is pretty reasonable, but patently obvious stuff ("Move by stealth! Disguise your intentions! Occupy the high ground!") and the other half is just random crap like how many ox carts equal one archer or whatever. Whenever I see a Sun Tzu quote, or someone pulling out the tired Clausewitz "war is the continuation of politics by other means," I've got a very strong "stopped reading there" inclination.
 
2014-04-15 07:59:14 AM

OregonVet: I'm a little dyslexic this morning- I keep reading it as "Brady Bunch".


March, march, march?
 
2014-04-15 07:59:44 AM

Launch Code: .
Why do democrats hate hard working Americans so much?


Hard working Americans pay their grazing fees.
 
2014-04-15 07:59:51 AM
JohnnyC:  Most of those kinds of folks "don't recognize the court" (including this Bundy guy). Sovereign citizens... gold fringe flag conspiracies about "admiralty courts"... and all that other nonsense. We're talking about people who aren't really operating in the same plane of reality that the rest of us are. They're not thinking about court... they're thinking that if they can get the fed to start the firefight that somehow it'll end with them burning the White House to the ground and forming some new government under their rule.

That's what I think is awesome about this whole thing. Bundy doesn't recognize the authority of the BLM and his supports don't recognize the authority of the federal government. But the federal government doesn't care whether or not you "recognize" their authority. They're going to subject you to it anyway. You can biatch and moan and cry and stamp your feet all you want while you're sitting in a federal court in leg irons waiting for you sentence. P. Barnes doesn't care if you don't think your subject to the laws of the federal government and his taser certainly doesn't, as well. Better yet, ask Tim McVeigh how well trying to start a war worked out for him.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2014-04-15 08:00:21 AM
What wonderful heroes the conservative movement has these days.

A loser who wants to use women for human shields because he wants to have a standoff over the fact that he wants to steal from the government.

Freedom!
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2014-04-15 08:00:57 AM

MrBallou: I wonder what these people think GWB would have done if he were in charge.


He'd be confused.  There's no corporate position on something like this.
 
2014-04-15 08:01:35 AM

MrBallou: I wonder what these people think GWB would have done if he were in charge.


fark-all, apparently, if this mess has been going on for 20 years.
 
2014-04-15 08:03:41 AM

MrBallou: I wonder what these people think GWB would have done if he were in charge.


Said "Mission Accomplished" on the deck of a carrier, and then knocked off a portrait of Putin before a nice nap.
 
2014-04-15 08:04:11 AM
Reid the rules.  That's all you need to know or do, tax slaves.
 
2014-04-15 08:04:27 AM
I want to say this is what got people to remove the american royalty and start over
but it won't
just a little group of people who work with their hands,
discredited by the information machine that feeds us.
and they'll lose
 
2014-04-15 08:04:36 AM

HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: BTW, the article merely says they considered it, that it was a possible strategy, not that they actually agreed on it.

From a public relations standpoint, it makes sense.  Especially if they are unarmed.  Make the other side look like the bad guys.

To a gun nut, using women as human shields is good public relations.


Stereotyping is fun, especially when you include sexism. You are aware that these women are probably complicit in this "official" plan. Turns out they're pretty autonomous and are just as capable of manipulation as men. They're using themselves as a shield, or are only men capable of planning and leading semi-organized resistance?
 
2014-04-15 08:04:52 AM

fusillade762: The Blaze, the conservative news site affiliated with Glenn Beck, flagged the comments made Monday by Richard Mack

So this is the oh-so-credible nugget we're going to launch another Bundy thread with?

Are the chicks in question at least hot?


I imagine more than a few of the girls were stolen
 
2014-04-15 08:05:47 AM

vpb: dittybopper:

Doesn't matter if it's a gun nut, or Occupy Wall Street.  In fact, OWS used a bunch of different groups, including elderly women and children.

"It's not bad when *WE* do it!".

Yes, having women and children protest is exactly the same as using women and children as human shields in a shootout.


What's the difference, really?  It's the other side that *ALWAYS* has guns.  But because they're *GOVERNMENT* guns, they're always good, right?  Because the police would *NEVER* shoot unarmed people.

www.trbimg.com

And I want to point this out for emphasis because apparently some of you can't read:

TFA SAYS THEY MERELY CONSIDERED IT AS AN OPTION, NOT THAT THEY NECESSARILY IMPLEMENTED IT.


That's not to say I'm 100% sympathetic to the people down there.  I go back and forth on it*, but I'm intellectually honest enough to recognize that the visuals of seeing women and children getting shot by federal agents would look very, very, very bad for the government on TV.

Doesn't matter if you agree with the strategy or not, from a public relations standpoint, if things had gone all pear-shaped, it would have made the government look bad.  You may not like the people who thought of it, and you might think they are in the wrong, but you can't argue that fact.


*On the one hand, the government tried to basically put him out of business, reducing the head he could graze on that land from 1,000 to 150.  Think about how you'd feel if the government said you were no longer allowed to work 40 hours a week, just 6 hours, and that you weren't getting any compensation for the lost wages.  That's why he stopped paying the fees.  On the other hand, he could have kept grazing the 1,000 head there, ignoring the restriction, and kept paying the fees, which I think would put him in arguably a better position, especially if he could point to data that showed that over the 20 years, the desert tortoise population there remained stable or increased.  So I'm not sure I agree with what the guy did, and knowing that, I certainly wouldn't have hauled my ass out there to support him.
 
2014-04-15 08:09:47 AM
Felgraf:

Should people just not have to follow laws they don't feel like following?

Well, yeah, that precedent has been set. It flows from the top.

kaystreet.files.wordpress.com

"There is a vast amount of discretion that a president has - and, more specifically, that an attorney general has,"     -  Eric Holder

Laws are for suckers.
 
2014-04-15 08:09:47 AM
Since Bundy's cattle are trespassing on BLM's land and threatening the habitat of endangered creatures, they should treat his cattle as pests and just shoot any they find on their property. Just put a few snipers out there with long range sights and tell them it's time for target practice, men. Bundy will catch on real quick and I bet his cattle will soon be staying right where they ought to be.

/or he'll pay up pretty fast
 
2014-04-15 08:10:37 AM

WTF Indeed: You know if you ignore these people, they go away.


...you've never been bullied, have you?
 
2014-04-15 08:11:21 AM

WTF Indeed: You know if you ignore these people, they go away.


Unfortunatley, no. The Federal Goverment is pretty much here to stay.
 .
 
2014-04-15 08:12:35 AM

Abuse Liability: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: BTW, the article merely says they considered it, that it was a possible strategy, not that they actually agreed on it.

From a public relations standpoint, it makes sense.  Especially if they are unarmed.  Make the other side look like the bad guys.

To a gun nut, using women as human shields is good public relations.

Stereotyping is fun, especially when you include sexism. You are aware that these women are probably complicit in this "official" plan. Turns out they're pretty autonomous and are just as capable of manipulation as men. They're using themselves as a shield, or are only men capable of planning and leading semi-organized resistance?


Well being strong, independent bullet shields, I'm sure one of them can speak up and verify what you're alleging.
 
2014-04-15 08:13:12 AM

jntaylor63: HotWingConspiracy: WTF Indeed: You know if you ignore these people, they go away.

How does that work? They showed up to defend a wealthy deadbeat. Uncle Sam is going to collect.

THIS.

File tax leans, cut off whatever AG support he can file for, seize his bank accounts.

What amazes me on this is all of the local and national GOP support this guy was getting.  This man is a deadbeat and DOES NOT PAY HIS taxes.  Isn't this guy a moocher?  A taker?


...filing tax liens, etc will make him just as much of a martyr to these folks as it would if they'd just gotten in a Ruby Ridge-esque firefight.  To them, any government action is too much government action, even the modest actions they've already done.
 
2014-04-15 08:14:58 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: "There is a vast amount of discretion that a president has - and, more specifically, that an attorney general has,"     -  Eric Holder

Laws are for suckers.


I'm going to guess that you're not a lawyer.
 
2014-04-15 08:15:35 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Abuse Liability: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: BTW, the article merely says they considered it, that it was a possible strategy, not that they actually agreed on it.

From a public relations standpoint, it makes sense.  Especially if they are unarmed.  Make the other side look like the bad guys.

To a gun nut, using women as human shields is good public relations.

Stereotyping is fun, especially when you include sexism. You are aware that these women are probably complicit in this "official" plan. Turns out they're pretty autonomous and are just as capable of manipulation as men. They're using themselves as a shield, or are only men capable of planning and leading semi-organized resistance?

Well being strong, independent bullet shields, I'm sure one of them can speak up and verify what you're alleging.


Excellent counterpoint. You are a master debater and a cunning linguist.
 
2014-04-15 08:16:04 AM
Put a lien on everything he owns, get the money back. Then he can rebuild honestly, like the bootstrappy sovereign citizen he is.
 
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