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(Talking Points Memo)   Deadline for Eastern Ukraine to disarm has passed. Now we wait to see if the fecal matter impacts the whirling blades or not   (talkingpointsmemo.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, East Ukraine, Ukraine, Kiev, military juntas, Government of Ukraine, Russian flag, impacts, disarmament  
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2531 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2014 at 9:36 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-14 08:05:17 AM  
 
2014-04-14 08:59:25 AM  
So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.
 
2014-04-14 09:44:43 AM  

Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?


No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.
 
2014-04-14 09:47:16 AM  

Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.


Technically, Ukraine isn't a US or NATO protectorate. No one is under any obligation to stick their necks out for those guys. If countries don't want to be gobbled up by Russia, they need to pick a side.
 
2014-04-14 09:49:01 AM  
Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com
 
2014-04-14 09:50:06 AM  
weknowmemes.com
 
2014-04-14 09:51:52 AM  

Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.


Ukraine has an election in May. My guess is they will wait until after that time to 'officially' move.
 
2014-04-14 09:52:56 AM  

Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.


Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.
 
GBB
2014-04-14 09:53:36 AM  
mos.totalfilm.com
 
2014-04-14 09:54:30 AM  

cgraves67: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.

Technically, Ukraine isn't a US or NATO protectorate. No one is under any obligation to stick their necks out for those guys. If countries don't want to be gobbled up by Russia, they need to pick a side.


Untrue.  We made security assurances to protect Ukraine in the event of invasion in exchange for their getting rid of their nuclear weapons program.

Budapest Memorandum

Interestingly, this might apply to supporting the elected head of Ukraine, who was deposed by what some would call an unruly mob.

I have no idea why a country would give up nukes.  It's pretty clear that if you don't have them, you essentially have no national sovereignty..
 
2014-04-14 09:55:57 AM  

cgraves67: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.

Technically, Ukraine isn't a US or NATO protectorate. No one is under any obligation to stick their necks out for those guys. If countries don't want to be gobbled up by Russia, they need to pick a side.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assuran ce s

I'm not saying we should go to war right this second or anything, but yeah, we sort of did offer to stick our necks out for these guys.
 
2014-04-14 10:06:27 AM  
Don't you worry Ukraine. If President Putin does one more bad thing in your country barry WILL, probably use his Facebook page to insult him or something, maybe. obama is kinda busy though with this whole obamacare scheme he's been focused on for the last 5 years. Did you get the MRE's we sent? We'll send more, maybe. How's about some of those easily erasable red lines or maybe a speech? Let us know, anything to help, that's what this administration is here for.
 
2014-04-14 10:07:31 AM  

BitwiseShift: Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


[a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com image 652x365]


Holy crap.  Where was that taken?

You see that in your neighborhood, just move.  Or at least get behind something really solid.  The 7.62 54 rounds go through walls.
 
2014-04-14 10:08:28 AM  

fireclown: cgraves67: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.

Technically, Ukraine isn't a US or NATO protectorate. No one is under any obligation to stick their necks out for those guys. If countries don't want to be gobbled up by Russia, they need to pick a side.

Untrue.  We made security assurances to protect Ukraine in the event of invasion in exchange for their getting rid of their nuclear weapons program.

Budapest Memorandum

Interestingly, this might apply to supporting the elected head of Ukraine, who was deposed by what some would call an unruly mob.

I have no idea why a country would give up nukes.  It's pretty clear that if you don't have them, you essentially have no national sovereignty..



Russia signed that agreement as well; fat lot of good that did Ukraine.
 
2014-04-14 10:08:46 AM  

Launch Code: Don't you worry Ukraine. If President Putin does one more bad thing in your country barry WILL, probably use his Facebook page to insult him or something, maybe. obama is kinda busy though with this whole obamacare scheme he's been focused on for the last 5 years. Did you get the MRE's we sent? We'll send more, maybe. How's about some of those easily erasable red lines or maybe a speech? Let us know, anything to help, that's what this administration is here for.


Which will be easily double the European response.
 
2014-04-14 10:09:26 AM  

dittybopper: Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.


By your logic, which I'm inclined to agree with, that means that if Kiev cracks down, there's going to be a real bloody war.
 
2014-04-14 10:13:15 AM  

BitwiseShift: Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


[a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com image 652x365]


what happened with his barrel? It's low on the right side of the pic and doesn't line up.

His AK isn't all that impressive
 
2014-04-14 10:15:36 AM  

dittybopper: Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.

Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.


yea, classic Xanatos Gambit. Russia has set the stage to win.
 
2014-04-14 10:16:31 AM  
The Russian military is already deeply involved inside Ukraine.  The "pro-Russian protestors" and security are all Russian military.  They carry modern weaponry used by Russian forces, wear the same uniforms etc.

Russia wants Ukrainian forces to attack these so called "protestors" that way it can formally justify an intervention.  Either way, Ukraine is screwed.  If they let the "protestors" continue, they will lost the East just like Crimea.  If they take action, Russia will be justified with intervention, and they will lose the East.

The West will not intervene as there is little public/political support for action and the possible consequences.  Putin knows this.  His playbook was already revealed in Crimea.
 
2014-04-14 10:20:31 AM  
It would be nice to have something (other than reruns) to watch this summer on TV
 
2014-04-14 10:28:43 AM  

fireclown: I have no idea why a country would give up nukes.  It's pretty clear that if you don't have them, you essentially have no national sovereignty..


But the Ukraine didn't have the necessary resources to maintain and upgrade that arsenal.  Eventually, that arsenal would have degraded to the point where it was more dangerous to the Ukraine than to its enemies (of which there were none back then).

Plus, you have to remember that Moscow held the keys to that arsenal back then, quite literally:  They'd have known what the codes necessary for launch were, and in fact it wouldn't surprise me if, seeing the writing on the wall, Moscow disabled most of those weapons in a way that wasn't obvious but would have prevented their effective use.
 
2014-04-14 10:29:34 AM  

dittybopper: Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.

Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.


Ukraine doesn't have to be stronger than Russia to win. As long as it remains a conventional war, Ukraine isn't exactly weak. They can inflict plenty of damage and put up a respectable defense, and I'm not convinced Russia is willing to fight a prolonged war. They'd like to take Southeast Ukraine without a fight if they can.
 
2014-04-14 10:29:47 AM  

fireclown: BitwiseShift: Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


[a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com image 652x365]

Holy crap.  Where was that taken?

You see that in your neighborhood, just move.  Or at least get behind something really solid.  The 7.62 54 rounds go through walls.


AK's are 7.62x39, you're thinking of the AK's old grand-dad, the Mosin Nagant M91/30, or the M44.  Same projectile, big difference in powder charge.  Either way, they tend to leave a mark.
 
2014-04-14 10:30:39 AM  

Mrbogey: dittybopper: Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.

Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.

yea, classic Xanatos Gambit. Russia has set the stage to win.


faeronwheeler.com

VLAD!
 
2014-04-14 10:33:46 AM  

Comic Book Guy: fireclown: BitwiseShift: Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


[a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com image 652x365]

Holy crap.  Where was that taken?

You see that in your neighborhood, just move.  Or at least get behind something really solid.  The 7.62 54 rounds go through walls.

AK's are 7.62x39, you're thinking of the AK's old grand-dad, the Mosin Nagant M91/30, or the M44.  Same projectile, big difference in powder charge.  Either way, they tend to leave a mark.


You're both wrong.

That's an AKS-74U in 5.45x39mm.
 
2014-04-14 10:33:56 AM  
How will this affect my mail order bride? I was saving up to order her this summer. Will there be an embargo placed on goods from Russia? If so will mail order brides be a part of this embargo?
 
2014-04-14 10:35:40 AM  
Poland, ie NATO, has been ready to back Ukraine since Putin mobilized. The Baltic States also NATO have indicated a willingness to go to war against Russia if Poland does.

If the Ukrainian military decides to host The Next Big One, Russia will find itself on the receiving end of a LOT of Western provided ordnance.

When they take their eyes off of Chechnya then that region will explode again. And the big money people losing big time in the crisis will ignite a revolution, securing reforms and less centralized powers for the government.

Every expansionist empire goes through that. Those who go to war destabilize themselves if there are already breakaway groups within and the rich have been targeted by the government.

Putin is going to lose it all for the Kremlin.
 
2014-04-14 10:38:13 AM  

NobleHam: dittybopper: Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.

Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.

Ukraine doesn't have to be stronger than Russia to win. As long as it remains a conventional war, Ukraine isn't exactly weak. They can inflict plenty of damage and put up a respectable defense, and I'm not convinced Russia is willing to fight a prolonged war. They'd like to take Southeast Ukraine without a fight if they can.


It's true that you don't have to be able to win, you just have to make it too expensive for the other guy to win.  I've been saying that for years now.  But historically Russia has been willing to spend an awful lot.  They can essentially get away with doing stuff that would result in a nation-wide revolt in the United States.

See:  Chechnya, Georgia.
 
2014-04-14 10:39:34 AM  

Comic Book Guy: AK's are 7.62x39, you're thinking of the AK's old grand-dad, the Mosin Nagant M91/30, or the M44. Same projectile, big difference in powder charge. Either way, they tend to leave a mark.


Sorry.  I was thinking of my Mosin, which uses the 54s.  I don't know a lot about AKs.  There's a joke among Mosin owners that they're great because sometimes the enemy hides behind things.

/thanks for calling me out on that.
 
2014-04-14 10:47:05 AM  
Will NATO go through the formal process of making Ukraine a NATO member or put them on the NATO farm team?
 
2014-04-14 10:50:00 AM  
I'm sure they'll get by however they can. They just gotta duck when the sh*t hits the fan.
 
2014-04-14 10:51:19 AM  

Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.


Basically this.

The Ukraine needs to do something rather than stand around and expect Europe to descend into war for them.  Start shooting the mob.

Also, EAstern Ukraine is now separate from justplain old Ukraine?  They shouldn't allow for that loss of nomenclature either...there is just Ukraine and they should defend it.

Ukraine is weak and feeble though.
 
2014-04-14 10:52:02 AM  

Launch Code: Don't you worry Ukraine. If President Putin does one more bad thing in your country barry WILL, probably use his Facebook page to insult him or something, maybe. obama is kinda busy though with this whole obamacare scheme he's been focused on for the last 5 years. Did you get the MRE's we sent? We'll send more, maybe. How's about some of those easily erasable red lines or maybe a speech? Let us know, anything to help, that's what this administration is here for.


Failed to make references to either Hussein or Benghazi.

0 out of 10
 
2014-04-14 10:52:49 AM  
Here's the problem: the US has a treaty obligation to support the Ukraine militarily. So does most of Europe, IIRC, as part of NATO.

SO, basically, we get to see whether or not we honor our treaties and step up when it's called for. Right now, I think unless we step in and stop Russia early, Russia isn't going to stop at just annexing the Ukraine, but will start pushing for all of the old Soviet Bloc countries to be annexed, at least. And while I hate to say that it's "just like Hitler" and Godwin the thread, following the First World War and the rise of the Nazi party, Nazi Germany began expanding and annexing countries in much the same way while the world did nothing.

While I'm not all about war, there is a point at which we either have to step up and fight, or just accept that the man with the most balls rules the block.
 
2014-04-14 10:54:42 AM  

dittybopper: Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.

Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.


What happened to all the farkers parroting the "sanctions will shut Russia down" talking points?
 
2014-04-14 10:56:00 AM  

Kit Fister: While I'm not all about war, there is a point at which we either have to step up and fight


Probably not an option until 2016. Just saying if you're a US ally... good luck until then.
 
2014-04-14 10:56:16 AM  

Mrbogey: Xanatos Gambit


Exactly. I love TV Tropes! It's too bad that Ukraine is in one...

Xanatos Gambit
"The key to strategy... is not to choose a path to victory, but to choose so that all paths lead to a victory."
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-14 10:57:11 AM  

dittybopper: Comic Book Guy: fireclown: BitwiseShift: Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


[a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com image 652x365]

Holy crap.  Where was that taken?

You see that in your neighborhood, just move.  Or at least get behind something really solid.  The 7.62 54 rounds go through walls.

AK's are 7.62x39, you're thinking of the AK's old grand-dad, the Mosin Nagant M91/30, or the M44.  Same projectile, big difference in powder charge.  Either way, they tend to leave a mark.

You're both wrong.

That's an AKS-74U in 5.45x39mm.


I kinda had a feeling you'd pop up on that.  Thanks.
 
2014-04-14 11:04:17 AM  
a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.comde-motivational-posters.com
 
2014-04-14 11:05:07 AM  

Carousel Beast: dittybopper: Somacandra: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response?

No government can allow mob violence to occupy government and police buildings. A government that is unable and/or unwilling to protect the lives and property of its citizens is no government as all.

Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation.  They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away.  If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum.  If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.

Either way, without someone willing to back Kiev with a significant amount of military might, Russia wins.

What happened to all the farkers parroting the "sanctions will shut Russia down" talking points?


laying low till some statistic comes out that proves Putin has lost.
 
2014-04-14 11:13:59 AM  

Mrbogey: BitwiseShift: Prank dressing as a 600 lb ugly fundamentalist Muslim woman is all the style in Russia. Holding a little gun is icing on the cake as is the strench of garlic. This guy is posing in front of his tire collection. He's proud of his technique of removing tires while the vehicle is still moving. His hands are orange from the carrot vodak.


[a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com image 652x365]

what happened with his barrel? It's low on the right side of the pic and doesn't line up.

His AK isn't all that impressive


It's a short-barreled rifle.  The AK74 was designed for the Russian Spetsnaz special forces for tactical operations.  It is comparable to the American M4 In size, recoil and ballistics.

www.gandrtactical.com
 
2014-04-14 11:18:02 AM  

devildog123: cgraves67: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.

Technically, Ukraine isn't a US or NATO protectorate. No one is under any obligation to stick their necks out for those guys. If countries don't want to be gobbled up by Russia, they need to pick a side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assuran ce s

I'm not saying we should go to war right this second or anything, but yeah, we sort of did offer to stick our necks out for these guys.


I read that as us promising not to attack them. Nothing about defending them.
 
2014-04-14 11:31:23 AM  

cgraves67: Techhell: So... is Ukraine bluffing, or are they willing to "provoke" a full scale Russian response? And is Europe willing to do anything about it?

Sad to say, I think the Ukraine is finished. It's just a matter of how long before Russia simply annexes the entire country while Europe sticks its thumbs up its arse and the world tries to blame the USA for letting this happen.

Technically, Ukraine isn't a US or NATO protectorate. No one is under any obligation to stick their necks out for those guys. If countries don't want to be gobbled up by Russia, they need to pick a side.


They were picking a side and that side was NATO.  That's why Russia/Putin is annexing stuff.
 
2014-04-14 11:32:56 AM  

dittybopper: Russia knows this, and is using this as a deliberate provocation. They know that the Ukraine *MUST* crack down, or simply walk away. If Kiev just walks away, Russia moves in to fill the power vacuum. If Kiev cracks down, Russia invades to "protect" ethnic Russians.


I wish Ukraine would start making noise about all of the endangered ethnic Ukrainians stuck in Russian-held lands.
 
2014-04-14 11:37:21 AM  

Kit Fister: Here's the problem: the US has a treaty obligation to support the Ukraine militarily. So does most of Europe, IIRC, as part of NATO.

SO, basically, we get to see whether or not we honor our treaties and step up when it's called for. Right now, I think unless we step in and stop Russia early, Russia isn't going to stop at just annexing the Ukraine, but will start pushing for all of the old Soviet Bloc countries to be annexed, at least. And while I hate to say that it's "just like Hitler" and Godwin the thread, following the First World War and the rise of the Nazi party, Nazi Germany began expanding and annexing countries in much the same way while the world did nothing.

While I'm not all about war, there is a point at which we either have to step up and fight, or just accept that the man with the most balls rules the block.


The Budapest Memorandum, which provides security assurances for Ukraine, was signed by the US, UK and Russia. The rest of Europe was not part of it. Since Ukraine is not part of NATO, I doubt anyone in western Europe is willing to step up and fight for them. Even if the Russians were to steamroll Ukraine and then make a move on the Baltics and Poland, I'm not so sure if the rest of NATO is up for another full scale war. The scars of WWII are still too visible for too many people. I've lived in Europe for more than 20 years and I'm still going over there to visit friends and family and I honestly can't imagine them picking up arms. Reading the comments on German news sites, the majority seems to defend Putin's actions. Granted, it's the comments section on a website where a small group could make a lot of noise, but it's still a sad sight to see.
 
2014-04-14 11:38:04 AM  
There have already been reports of Ukrainian Special forces clashing with the "demonstrators" (who are really Russian Special force) and casualties on both sides.  The fertilizer has already made contact with the air circulation facilitators, it only remains to be seen how bad it gets
 
2014-04-14 11:49:41 AM  

Kit Fister: Here's the problem: the US has a treaty obligation to support the Ukraine militarily.


Russia is obliged by the same treaty to support them as well. Perhaps we could ask Russia to send troops to help.
 
2014-04-14 11:51:02 AM  

SurelyShirley: Kit Fister: Here's the problem: the US has a treaty obligation to support the Ukraine militarily. So does most of Europe, IIRC, as part of NATO.

SO, basically, we get to see whether or not we honor our treaties and step up when it's called for. Right now, I think unless we step in and stop Russia early, Russia isn't going to stop at just annexing the Ukraine, but will start pushing for all of the old Soviet Bloc countries to be annexed, at least. And while I hate to say that it's "just like Hitler" and Godwin the thread, following the First World War and the rise of the Nazi party, Nazi Germany began expanding and annexing countries in much the same way while the world did nothing.

While I'm not all about war, there is a point at which we either have to step up and fight, or just accept that the man with the most balls rules the block.

The Budapest Memorandum, which provides security assurances for Ukraine, was signed by the US, UK and Russia. The rest of Europe was not part of it. Since Ukraine is not part of NATO, I doubt anyone in western Europe is willing to step up and fight for them. Even if the Russians were to steamroll Ukraine and then make a move on the Baltics and Poland, I'm not so sure if the rest of NATO is up for another full scale war. The scars of WWII are still too visible for too many people. I've lived in Europe for more than 20 years and I'm still going over there to visit friends and family and I honestly can't imagine them picking up arms. Reading the comments on German news sites, the majority seems to defend Putin's actions. Granted, it's the comments section on a website where a small group could make a lot of noise, but it's still a sad sight to see.


Kind of sad, since sometimes you have no choice.
 
2014-04-14 11:55:22 AM  
SurelyShirley: Even if the Russians were to steamroll Ukraine and then make a move on the Baltics and Poland, I'm not so sure if the rest of NATO is up for another full scale war.

- If the russians invade poland, NATO will most certainly invade militarily.  That's the existential mission of the NATO mutual defense alliance.
- Germans defending neo-fascist putin is more sickening than americans who drove SUVs during the Iraq war.  Germany had built itself up into such a paragon of civil society in recent years and in my view has entirely pissed it away with this unconscionable rationalization.  "disgraceful deutschland."  they, above all else, should know better.
 
2014-04-14 11:58:09 AM  

Kit Fister: Kind of sad, since sometimes you have no choice.


I don't understand what this means. Who has no choice? Choice to do what? What the hell are you talking about?

We had the opportunity to provide a great deal of aid to Ukraine through the IMF. Republicans in Congress rejected it. Apparently, we did have a choice, and the Republicans in Congress made it for us.
 
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