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(BusinessWeek)   Ukraine crisis: Exchange of fire in Kramatorsk as police fend off attempted takeover of government building   (businessweek.com) divider line 78
    More: Followup, Ukraine, Kramatorsk, Oleksandr Turchynov, Prime Minister of Ukraine, combat readiness, intelligence officials, Atlantic Council, Russian troops  
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2771 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Apr 2014 at 7:04 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-12 04:10:23 PM  
 
2014-04-12 07:08:13 PM  
The tighter Putin squeezes the more systems he will lose.
 
2014-04-12 07:08:49 PM  
no1curr.gig
 
2014-04-12 07:08:55 PM  
So where is our Resident FARK Expert on Russian-Ukraine relations to tell us how this isn't anything to be worried about, again?
 
2014-04-12 07:11:30 PM  

BalugaJoe: The tighter Putin squeezes the more systems he will lose.


What do you mean?
 
2014-04-12 07:12:26 PM  
I'll start believing Putin is not a total pussy when he takes off his shirt and stands in front of a brigade of the Ukrainian army.
 
2014-04-12 07:14:06 PM  
East Ukraine is still a better place to visit then East St Louis.
 
2014-04-12 07:14:37 PM  

gfid: I'll start believing Putin is not a total pussy when he takes off his shirt and stands in front of a brigade of the Ukrainian army.


Considering Putin's history as a KGB/FSB Field operative in the former East German territory, I imagine he's killed more people than you give him credit for. The KGB wasn't shy about wetwork, especially in their own back yard.
 
2014-04-12 07:15:04 PM  
Send a droid.
 
2014-04-12 07:18:30 PM  
Kiev's use force in south-eastern Ukraine will foil four-party meeting plan according to Lavrov. Jesus Christ. This whole thing is kabuki theater bullshiat.
 
2014-04-12 07:19:13 PM  
Russia seems like a nation of thugs, I really hate what they stand for. I think Ukraine needs to fight back at this point, they're just letting Russia steal their country right now. Crimea was one thing, but this is insanity.
 
2014-04-12 07:20:21 PM  
UN to send a strongly worded letter.
 
2014-04-12 07:20:30 PM  

BalugaJoe: Send a droid.


How will sending a phone help?
 
2014-04-12 07:20:34 PM  
Just laying the groundwork to justify intervention by Russia to seize a couple eastern provinces and give a more cohesive border for Crimea that is less vulnerable to supply disruptions of water and electricity.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was an attack on the pipeline soon.
 
2014-04-12 07:25:57 PM  

hardinparamedic: gfid: I'll start believing Putin is not a total pussy when he takes off his shirt and stands in front of a brigade of the Ukrainian army.

Considering Putin's history as a KGB/FSB Field operative in the former East German territory, I imagine he's killed more people than you give him credit for. The KGB wasn't shy about wetwork, especially in their own back yard.


Putin wasn't a field operative. He was a clerk.
 
2014-04-12 07:26:03 PM  

Daedalus27: Just laying the groundwork to justify intervention by Russia to seize a couple eastern provinces and give a more cohesive border for Crimea that is less vulnerable to supply disruptions of water and electricity.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was an attack on the pipeline soon.


According to the article, Russia intends to balkanize Ukraine and absorb what they can.
 
2014-04-12 07:26:30 PM  

BalugaJoe: The tighter Putin squeezes the more systems he will lose.


The Germans won't buy his gas, or less of it, and he will gain a bunch of mouths to feed if he takes more from Ukraine.  Chances are he isn't going to feed those mouths in the new "Russian" territory and they will bite back when it comes time to be paid.  In the long run I don't see this being any good for Russia.  Also this turmoil is right at their door step.

Other than pipelines I really don't see the point of Russia taking over more of Ukraine.  Seems to be more trouble than it is worth and might open up a whole can of worms in the process.
 
2014-04-12 07:29:26 PM  

fusillade762: Putin wasn't a field operative. He was a clerk.


That's what he wants you to think
 
2014-04-12 07:29:58 PM  
If the Ukrainian government were to take a page out of the Iranian governments playbook on quelling rebellion (see squashed Green Movement), or the tactics employed by Suharto in Indonesia (as documented in the film "the Act of Killing"), they could put a swift end to this dissidence, but alas, they are aligning themselves with the West and have to take into account things like human rights and such.  Will likely lead to their downfall.
 
2014-04-12 07:31:20 PM  

BalugaJoe: UN to send a strongly worded letter.


I wonder if this is what the people who founded the UN had in mind.  Sure, everyone was sick of war when it was founded, but I wonder if this isn't a situation when the founders thought forces should be sent in and Ukraine liberated.  But, they had to compromise with all the powers  that got to be in the Security Council and gave them all a veto because otherwise nobody would have agreed to the deal.

Can we vote Russia off the Security Council?  Probably not.
 
2014-04-12 07:32:39 PM  

Summoner101: That's what he wants you to think


If he also want us to think he's a repressed homosexual with biatch tits....his plan is working, I guess.
 
2014-04-12 07:35:58 PM  
Mein Führer! I can walk!

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-04-12 07:36:56 PM  
Isn't this how that movie Crimson Tide started.

Do not kick off a submarine movie kick with Das Boot.  Everything else sucks compared to it.
 
2014-04-12 07:37:20 PM  

TheJoe03: Russia seems like a nation of thugs, I really hate what they stand for. I think Ukraine needs to fight back at this point, they're just letting Russia steal their country right now. Crimea was one thing, but this is insanity.


The Ukraine is on the very edge of bankruptcy and has absolutely no money with which to fight a war. So Russia is just going to take what they want and Ukraine won't be able to stop them.
 
2014-04-12 07:39:40 PM  
Russians.
Kill them.
That is all.
 
2014-04-12 07:39:54 PM  

Pumpernickel bread: Will likely lead to their downfall.


What will lead to their downfall is internal bickering, corruption and poor leadership. What, they've had a month or so to beef up every/all police and govt bldg's in the eastern sectors. Run Ukr army units over there, close down the border tighter/better... all kinds of things you can do to make sure your country is protected, your police forces are doing their jobs ( local and border ); and to make sure no more "Armed Citizens" are running around your neck of the woods, taking over govt bldgs, building roadblocks and moving across loose international borders.

So, the Ukr peoples need to step up their game. Putin outfoxed everyone in the Crimea, and should not be able to continue these moves in more areas. Yes, there are russian sympathizing Ukrainians in the east, but you have a border, you have laws and a constitution which says no armed rebellion and no armed separatist action.
 
2014-04-12 07:40:38 PM  
I bet Putin has a very good Risk cards
 
2014-04-12 07:45:45 PM  

GoodHomer: TheJoe03: Russia seems like a nation of thugs, I really hate what they stand for. I think Ukraine needs to fight back at this point, they're just letting Russia steal their country right now. Crimea was one thing, but this is insanity.

The Ukraine is on the very edge of bankruptcy and has absolutely no money with which to fight a war. So Russia is just going to take what they want and Ukraine won't be able to stop them.


Guerrilla warfare. You don't need that much money to fight off an occupation, it's usually poor and less powerful people that fight against occupations and they usually do well.
 
2014-04-12 07:47:09 PM  
An economically beleaguered craphole takes on the debts of a nation that is completely broke as all hell and requires mountains of cash just to function on a daily basis.
Have fun with that, you silly borscht eating weirdos.

yes, we do similar things all the damn time, which sucks, but at least we can somewhat afford it.
 
2014-04-12 07:49:46 PM  

TheJoe03: Guerrilla warfare. You don't need that much money to fight off an occupation, it's usually poor and less powerful people that fight against occupations and they usually do well.


Ask Chechnya how well that's worked against the Russians.

Red Dawn was a borderline entertaining movie. Not a textbook on real life military action.
 
2014-04-12 07:53:20 PM  
BalugaJoe: The tighter Putin squeezes the more systems he will lose will slip through his fingers.

FTFY
 
2014-04-12 07:55:34 PM  
Ukraine was so last week.

Today it's all about the Cattle Battle.
 
2014-04-12 07:57:23 PM  
"While only 8 percent of Ukrainians nationwide want their region to secede, in Donetsk province the figure is 18 percent, according to an opinion poll by the Kiev-based Democratic Initiatives Foundation. The creation of an independent state in southern and eastern Ukraine is backed by 11 percent..."

So, 82% in Donetsk are not in favor of secession, and 89% not in favor in the other region, but Russia wants Ukraine to "respect their right to choose." What BS.

Sounds like a perfect case of armed insurrectionists who are violating Ukraine law, need to be treated by Kiev like criminals and put down, hard. Roll in 5000+ Western Ukraine soldiers, make sure to only target the secessionist leaders and arrest/kill anyone raising arms against Kiev soldiers.
 
2014-04-12 08:08:42 PM  

Seraphym: "While only 8 percent of Ukrainians nationwide want their region to secede, in Donetsk province the figure is 18 percent, according to an opinion poll by the Kiev-based Democratic Initiatives Foundation. The creation of an independent state in southern and eastern Ukraine is backed by 11 percent..."

So, 82% in Donetsk are not in favor of secession, and 89% not in favor in the other region, but Russia wants Ukraine to "respect their right to choose." What BS.

Sounds like a perfect case of armed insurrectionists who are violating Ukraine law, need to be treated by Kiev like criminals and put down, hard. Roll in 5000+ Western Ukraine soldiers, make sure to only target the secessionist leaders and arrest/kill anyone raising arms against Kiev soldiers.


That might be exactly what the interim government is planning to do. Doing so, however, will most likely lead to a full scale Russian military invasion.
 
2014-04-12 08:12:44 PM  
Begun the Putin wars have.
 
2014-04-12 08:15:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: gfid: I'll start believing Putin is not a total pussy when he takes off his shirt and stands in front of a brigade of the Ukrainian army.

Considering Putin's history as a KGB/FSB Field operative in the former East German territory, I imagine he's killed more people than you give him credit for. The KGB wasn't shy about wetwork, especially in their own back yard.


I've got a 60 odd year old friend who is retired Force Recon. He will gladly go Mano y Mano with Putin to the death barehanded or with knives. He's kept himself in excellent shape, and I have little doubt that he could handle Putin with little difficulty. He'd consider it a public service to get rid of another Soviet-era thug.
 
2014-04-12 08:17:35 PM  

Seraphym: "While only 8 percent of Ukrainians nationwide want their region to secede, in Donetsk province the figure is 18 percent, according to an opinion poll by the Kiev-based Democratic Initiatives Foundation. The creation of an independent state in southern and eastern Ukraine is backed by 11 percent..."

So, 82% in Donetsk are not in favor of secession, and 89% not in favor in the other region, but Russia wants Ukraine to "respect their right to choose." What BS.

Sounds like a perfect case of armed insurrectionists who are violating Ukraine law, need to be treated by Kiev like criminals and put down, hard. Roll in 5000+ Western Ukraine soldiers, make sure to only target the secessionist leaders and arrest/kill anyone raising arms against Kiev soldiers.


See you are making the mistake of calculating when people have a choice with real options.  Take a poll after Putin rolls the tanks in and the local pro-Russian forces have a chance to beat up and intimidate any and all opposition.  You will soon see that of the 20% who show up to vote, 90%+ vote to embrace mother Russia. Ultimately that is the only poll that counts.
 
2014-04-12 08:18:19 PM  

Marmilman: Kiev's use force in south-eastern Ukraine will foil four-party meeting plan according to Lavrov. Jesus Christ. This whole thing is kabuki theater bullshiat.


Lavrov's an old hand at mendacity. He also just made the claim that rising anti-Russian sentiment is the actual cause of instability in Europe
 
2014-04-12 08:24:53 PM  

hardinparamedic: TheJoe03: Guerrilla warfare. You don't need that much money to fight off an occupation, it's usually poor and less powerful people that fight against occupations and they usually do well.

Ask Chechnya how well that's worked against the Russians.

Red Dawn was a borderline entertaining movie. Not a textbook on real life military action.


I wasn't aware Chechnya was a large independent nation that was invaded by Russia. You're so smart and know so much about the history of guerrilla warfare. Tell me more wise one.
 
2014-04-12 08:33:13 PM  

inglixthemad: hardinparamedic: gfid: I'll start believing Putin is not a total pussy when he takes off his shirt and stands in front of a brigade of the Ukrainian army.

Considering Putin's history as a KGB/FSB Field operative in the former East German territory, I imagine he's killed more people than you give him credit for. The KGB wasn't shy about wetwork, especially in their own back yard.

I've got a 60 odd year old friend who is retired Force Recon. He will gladly go Mano y Mano with Putin to the death barehanded or with knives. He's kept himself in excellent shape, and I have little doubt that he could handle Putin with little difficulty. He'd consider it a public service to get rid of another Soviet-era thug.


Well, what is he waiting for?  I'll buy him a plane ticket if that's all he needs.
 
2014-04-12 08:42:19 PM  
is Putin as wacked as George W Bush or what?

jesus christ, stop putting politicians into power.
it's all they want.
 
2014-04-12 08:48:32 PM  

kd8our: BalugaJoe: The tighter Putin squeezes the more systems he will lose.

The Germans won't buy his gas, or less of it, and he will gain a bunch of mouths to feed if he takes more from Ukraine.  Chances are he isn't going to feed those mouths in the new "Russian" territory and they will bite back when it comes time to be paid.  In the long run I don't see this being any good for Russia.  Also this turmoil is right at their door step.

Other than pipelines I really don't see the point of Russia taking over more of Ukraine.  Seems to be more trouble than it is worth and might open up a whole can of worms in the process.


You believe the EU has the backbone to do that?
 
2014-04-12 08:57:08 PM  

inglixthemad: I've got a 60 odd year old friend who is retired Force Recon.


Isn't everybody on the internet very special forces or retired very special forces?
I understand that's the case.
 
2014-04-12 09:06:17 PM  

Seraphym: "While only 8 percent of Ukrainians nationwide want their region to secede, in Donetsk province the figure is 18 percent, according to an opinion poll by the Kiev-based Democratic Initiatives Foundation. The creation of an independent state in southern and eastern Ukraine is backed by 11 percent..."

So, 82% in Donetsk are not in favor of secession, and 89% not in favor in the other region, but Russia wants Ukraine to "respect their right to choose." What BS.

Sounds like a perfect case of armed insurrectionists who are violating Ukraine law, need to be treated by Kiev like criminals and put down, hard. Roll in 5000+ Western Ukraine soldiers, make sure to only target the secessionist leaders and arrest/kill anyone raising arms against Kiev soldiers.


Russia won't have a response to that? Really? Huh. Well, good luck with that, Ukraine.
 
2014-04-12 09:07:12 PM  

Marmilman: That might be exactly what the interim government is planning to do. Doing so, however, will most likely lead to a full scale Russian military invasion.


Invasions and occupations are rather expensive things, and Putin is already picking up the tab on the Black Sea Fleet.
 
2014-04-12 09:17:33 PM  

GoodHomer: TheJoe03: Russia seems like a nation of thugs, I really hate what they stand for. I think Ukraine needs to fight back at this point, they're just letting Russia steal their country right now. Crimea was one thing, but this is insanity.

The Ukraine is on the very edge of bankruptcy and has absolutely no money with which to fight a war. So Russia is just going to take what they want and Ukraine won't be able to stop them.


Since when do you need money to fight a war? You just borrow, like we do. And you keep it off the books for a few years, making sure it only counts after the administration changes.

Oh, and I believe the IMF has guaranteed that Ukraine will be solvent. And I'm pretty sure Poland will get involved, they pretty much mobilized to their borders when the Russians made their aggressions clear. Poland is NATO. That means we get to funnel resources in fairly easily. We give to Poland, Poland gives to Ukraine. And there's several other NATO members bordering Russia itself.

If Ukraine wants to resist, they will find the resources to do it. If nothing else the CIA will make sure of that.
 
2014-04-12 09:31:18 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: inglixthemad: I've got a 60 odd year old friend who is retired Force Recon.

Isn't everybody on the internet very special forces or retired very special forces?
I understand that's the case.


Not me. I did some work for the Fed a few years ago. Required two clearances.

Involved getting encrypted information, adding a recipient header and clicking send. Super top secret 007 stuff right?

(This is the real excitement level of what most people with clearances do)
 
2014-04-12 10:00:13 PM  

Summoner101: fusillade762: Putin wasn't a field operative. He was a clerk.

That's what he wants you to think


Exactly.  He was merely an errand boy.
/...sent by the grocer.
//...to collect the bill.
///...got nothing serious to add to this convo at the moment due to topic exhaustion, so I'll just see myself out.
 
2014-04-12 10:02:57 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: inglixthemad: I've got a 60 odd year old friend who is retired Force Recon.

Isn't everybody on the internet very special forces or retired very special forces?
I understand that's the case.


Not me, C Battery, 5/67 ADA, "The First and The Worst".  It actually was "The First and The Finest", but, I'm of the pissed off draftee generation and we were into the whole FTA thing.
 
2014-04-12 10:28:49 PM  

Marmilman: Seraphym: "While only 8 percent of Ukrainians nationwide want their region to secede, in Donetsk province the figure is 18 percent, according to an opinion poll by the Kiev-based Democratic Initiatives Foundation. The creation of an independent state in southern and eastern Ukraine is backed by 11 percent..."

So, 82% in Donetsk are not in favor of secession, and 89% not in favor in the other region, but Russia wants Ukraine to "respect their right to choose." What BS.

Sounds like a perfect case of armed insurrectionists who are violating Ukraine law, need to be treated by Kiev like criminals and put down, hard. Roll in 5000+ Western Ukraine soldiers, make sure to only target the secessionist leaders and arrest/kill anyone raising arms against Kiev soldiers.

That might be exactly what the interim government is planning to do. Doing so, however, will most likely lead to a full scale Russian military invasion.


There's also the possibility that a crackdown by Kiev against the separatists in eastern Ukraine could cause a pretty decent proportion of the non-separatists to change sides.  Which if Putin does want to invade would make his job easier in addition to providing him with a better excuse.  If nothing else, the unrest in the east is a huge distraction for the new government in Kiev and is keeping them from giving their full attention to state building.  It's also a useful way for Putin to distract the Russian people from problems at home.  From Putin's perspective, there really isn't a downside to stirring up trouble in eastern Ukraine.
 
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