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(Huffington Post)   You know, it was just the other day that I was saying "Boy, I wish we had a European war to fight. I miss the good ol' days" Well, the NATO chief has the same feelings   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 8
    More: Scary, NATO, Eastern Europe, United States, Europe, DigitalGlobe, Anthony Cordesman, combat readiness, East Ukraine  
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5929 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Apr 2014 at 2:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-10 08:52:18 PM  
1 votes:

Al!: Any armed incursion upon a NATO member nations sovereign territory would automatically trigger reaction by the alliance as a whole, whether the invaded nation asked for help or not. The nature of the alliance allows for situations where the central government of allied nations may not be the legal government, or where the government is under duress.


Bears repeating. It doesn't matter whether Russia installs a puppet government that declares "we're all fine, thank you!", or whatever other lies Russia and its shills tell. An attack on any NATO member is an attack on all of them, end of story.
2014-04-10 07:12:33 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: mcreadyblue: I guess it's war then, too bad we are bound by unchangeable treaties.

It's WWI all over again.

You really should know what you're talking about before you make sarcastic quips. Article 5, the protection of NATO member states by the whole from aggression, IS the North Atlantic Treaty. It is basically what the entire organization was founded upon.

It's not "World War I", unless you count Russia as the Germans invading everyone around them.


It's not even close to WWI -- those were conflicting treaties and not designed around unity of purpose.  It was more "If one country attacks another, feel free to dogpile on your hated enemy".

mcreadyblue: I applaud your bravery in being amongst the first troops to bravely charge into the Russian lines.

You courage will long be remembered.

No one is talking about invading Russia, you hack.


The premise of "Chickenhawk" is absurd anyway.


Grahor: Unthinkable, once. And yet entirely reasonable and acceptable, today. Rules change. Something unthinkable becomes entirely acceptable, completely reasonable.

What you're suggesting is nothing less than the dissolution of NATO and outright appeasement of an aggressive power to keep form going to war. Remind me, Neville, how well that's worked out historically? And for an added bonus, remind me how many lives it would have saved had you stood up to that power and outright smacked them down rather than appeasing them?


Apparently, the dissolution of NATO is already reasonable in his mind.
2014-04-10 06:59:54 PM  
1 votes:

mcreadyblue: I guess it's war then, too bad we are bound by unchangeable treaties.

It's WWI all over again.


You really should know what you're talking about before you make sarcastic quips. Article 5, the protection of NATO member states by the whole from aggression, IS the North Atlantic Treaty. It is basically what the entire organization was founded upon.

It's not "World War I", unless you count Russia as the Germans invading everyone around them.

mcreadyblue: I applaud your bravery in being amongst the first troops to bravely charge into the Russian lines.

You courage will long be remembered.


No one is talking about invading Russia, you hack.

Grahor: Unthinkable, once. And yet entirely reasonable and acceptable, today. Rules change. Something unthinkable becomes entirely acceptable, completely reasonable.


What you're suggesting is nothing less than the dissolution of NATO and outright appeasement of an aggressive power to keep form going to war. Remind me, Neville, how well that's worked out historically? And for an added bonus, remind me how many lives it would have saved had you stood up to that power and outright smacked them down rather than appeasing them?
2014-04-10 05:51:58 PM  
1 votes:

mcreadyblue: Maul555: As an American, I support NATO and its mission.  If we have to send troops, then we have to send troops.  That is really all there is to it.

/It's far cheaper in the long run to push back hard now

I applaud your bravery in being amongst the first troops to bravely charge into the Russian lines.

You courage will long be remembered.


You realize they aren't talking about an attack on the Russians or anything, right?  The Russians might be willing to push around the few thousand Latvian or Estonian infantry if push came to shove.  If there was a battalion or two of US armor, or a squadron or two of F-15's that they'd have to shoot through, most likely, they won't.  The cost of moving those troops from Germany now, and putting them in some barracks in eastern Europe is far cheaper than letting the Russians attack them, so we have to reply with force, rather than a rebasing.
2014-04-10 05:21:07 PM  
1 votes:
As an American, I support NATO and its mission.  If we have to send troops, then we have to send troops.  That is really all there is to it.

/It's far cheaper in the long run to push back hard now
2014-04-10 04:34:55 PM  
1 votes:

Marmilman: MurphyMurphy: It sounds farked, but if we dont respond in kind it could easily end up more disasterous than immediate military escalation.

I couldn't agree more. The consequences of NOT fulfilling our mutual defense treaties are far and away more dangerous than the immediate conflict. I feel the same way about our seeming abandonment of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. The consequences of not ensuring Ukraine's territorial integrity will undermine our ability to successfully continue the policy nuclear non-proliferation.


Concur.

And, it's yet another reason I was opposed to intervening in Iraq.

Spend troops and money someplace optional, and you may be caught short later, when it's less optional.
2014-04-10 03:47:23 PM  
1 votes:

hardinparamedic: Does anyone REALLY think that the US will do nothing if Russia postures to attack a NATO ally? Failing to uphold Article 5 would instantly lose the US ANY credibility in international treaties and dealings, and would usher in an era of Post-US Geopolitics.


Basically, this.

We're obligated. And to ignore this particular obligation would be to undermine nato entirely.

If that happened...anything goes. NATO, not the UN, is responsible for us having gone 70 years without a world war.

Id also note that its likely that nato, not nuclear deterrance, is responsible for basically zero military action being tested against us or europe for that same 70 years.

Nato falls apart, no more relatively comfy safe proxy wars like our parents had in south asia or us in the middle east.

It sounds farked, but if we dont respond in kind it could easily end up more disasterous than immediate military escalation.

/and this is coming from a pacifist :p
2014-04-10 02:57:00 PM  
1 votes:

devildog123: It isn't like we're invading Iraq or something.  We're moving troops into countries that we have a signed defense treaty with, and that Russia has been making threatening noises too.  It's similar to the function of US troops in Korea.  If the Russians want to move into someplace like Estonia, they have to decide if attacking American troops is worth it.  It is probably the cheapest, easiest way to prevent Russian moves into those countries.  No combat needed, just moving a few units that are already in Europe.  Honestly, basing them in places like Estonia, with it's lower cost of living would probably be cheaper than keeping them in Germany anyway.


We have to think of the well-being of our troops, though... namely, are the 20-something-year-old Estonian women as hot as the 20-something-year-old German women our troops are used to?

I propose multiple pictures from either argument be presented here as evidence.
 
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