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(Quartz)   After Russia's Gazprom hikes natural gas prices 80% for it's Ukrainian customers, Ukraine this morning reminded Russia that its natural gas pipeline to Europe all run through Ukraine, who can shut them off if they want   (qz.com) divider line 128
    More: Interesting, natural gas prices, Gazprom, Vladimir Putin, Russia, Europe, Ukraine, Ukrainian, Government of Ukraine  
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10286 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Apr 2014 at 3:24 PM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-09 04:51:37 PM  
I cut off your milkshake?

nymag.com
 
2014-04-09 04:53:50 PM  

tinyarena: CruJones: Grahor:
Putin doesn't react well to blackmail. blah blah blah,,,

You know how I know you didn't read the article?
don't bother pointing out the obvious,
Grahor is russian shill
Lost Ukraine = brilliant move by Putin!
Invade tiny peninsula where they already had bases = brilliant move by Putin!
Turkey threatens to shut their fleet in the Black Seal = brilliant move by Putin!
Sanctions costing Russia over 100 Billion this year = brilliant move by Putin!

you get the idea, the man is a GENIUS!


Yeah, nothing like driving Ukraine into the arms of the Europeans, and the Europeans into the arms of the Americans. Simply brilliant, Mr. Putin.
 
2014-04-09 05:01:18 PM  

This text is now purple: The Ukrainian air force won't fight for eastern Ukraine in Donetsk. They'll fight for Ukraine in Moscow.


You know, it's comments like this that make me fume. Let's forget for a second that Ukraine has, like, 10% of active planes compared to Russia. (like, 80 Sukhoy planes of all kinds, none last generation, against 1080 Sukhoy planes for Russia, with at least half last generation).

But the moment one single plane will attack Moscow, it's all over for Ukraine. Childish desire "to punish impudent hohols for their loutishness" will turn into steely determination to exterminate "the foreign enemy that dared to touch the holy soil of motherland". Russia will simply declare total mobilization, cut all the talks with the West, probably including cutting all the gas for Europe, and will just overwhelm Ukraine without any consideration for its own losses.

That's why there is no chance in hell anyone in Ukraine will even consider that type of escalation.
 
2014-04-09 05:03:26 PM  
fark Russia.
 
2014-04-09 05:05:03 PM  
d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net
 
2014-04-09 05:07:45 PM  

kbronsito: flondrix: kbronsito:  You are right in that Ukraine would be smart not to blow up the pipes... but holding them hostage is different.

Stupid question here:  Are there any valves that are under Ukrainian control?  i.e., if they wanted to stop gas flow across their territory without damaging the pipes, how hard is that to do?

IDK how this works... but i've seen the pipes on various maps and these pipes go for long stretches of Ukraine, which is a fairly large country. there would have to be valves at some sort of regular interval just for safety issues, right? I would expect that interval to be shorter than the length of Ukraine.


Yes, of course there are valves.  But, in reality, there are also HUGE compressor stations that keep the gas moving.  You just have to turn those off to stop it, then close the valves.
 
2014-04-09 05:09:30 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: "I'm Vladmir Putin, and I approve of this message because if capitalism taught me anything its the value of paid propaganda- er- marketing. Da, marketing."


What was actually wrong with my post, other than you not liking it?

You know, there was such a newspaper in my youth. It was called "Pravda". Whenever it didn't like someone's criticism, it didn't try to fight it with truth or with counter-argument or with anything else. It just proclaimed the author of that criticism a hireling of dastardly western imperialists, and that was that - everything that person ever said or will say was automatically dismissed, without any need to elaborate on why it was wrong.

Now, I understand, that sometimes the source is so biased, there is no point in even paying attention to it. Point in case: Fox News. However, I don't think I've written anything that warrants such attitude. As far as I know, nothing I've said here was factually incorrect. If it was, please show it to me (with evidence, if I would be as bold to ask). For example, if the economies of aforementioned countries are not dependent on Russian gas, I'll be glad to look at any data.
 
2014-04-09 05:15:30 PM  

Grahor: This text is now purple: The Ukrainian air force won't fight for eastern Ukraine in Donetsk. They'll fight for Ukraine in Moscow.

You know, it's comments like this that make me fume. Let's forget for a second that Ukraine has, like, 10% of active planes compared to Russia. (like, 80 Sukhoy planes of all kinds, none last generation, against 1080 Sukhoy planes for Russia, with at least half last generation).

But the moment one single plane will attack Moscow, it's all over for Ukraine. Childish desire "to punish impudent hohols for their loutishness" will turn into steely determination to exterminate "the foreign enemy that dared to touch the holy soil of motherland". Russia will simply declare total mobilization, cut all the talks with the West, probably including cutting all the gas for Europe, and will just overwhelm Ukraine without any consideration for its own losses.

That's why there is no chance in hell anyone in Ukraine will even consider that type of escalation.


What do they have to lose? Russia's coming for the whole thing anyway. And Russia sort of likes its ethnic cleansing. Just ask the Ukrainians.
 
2014-04-09 05:17:31 PM  

dittybopper: cameroncrazy1984: dittybopper: nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.

Sure it will.  For Russia.

In what scenario does it end well for Russia?

They end up completely controlling the Ukraine like they did before the breakup of the Soviet Union.

No one thinks the Ukrainians will be able to mount a serious resistance, and *WE* certainly aren't going to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine.

They've been gearing up for it.  You know it's going to happen.


I don't know; the Russia military, and in particular its personnel, aren't in very good shape(public health is horrible in Russia, and their military forces are no better) and Ukraine is big. Invading Ukraine would be a totally different kettle of fish than what they did in Georgia, and even there they were smart enough not to try and stay. We might not want to engage directly with the Russian military, but we can, on our own and through the Europeans, do plenty to aggravate such a campaign, making it even more painful for him than the Ukrainian military and para-militaries behind Russian lines would.

And there's the open question of how happy those Crimean Russians are going to be moving forward as Putin starts to establish there the political and economic controls already in place in Russia, and they find themselves cut out of the global economy as a result of Russia's invasion.
 
2014-04-09 05:20:07 PM  

CruJones: Grahor: kbronsito: Ukraine doesn't actually have to shut the gas off... just the fact that they've said this out loud has probably already had an effect on the Gazprom stock.

Russian government owns Gazprom stock.

Russian government doesn't care about the value of the Gazprom stock because they are not going to sell it, ever. Gazprom stock may fall below zero and Russia will not care, because it's not interested in the value of Gazprom stocks. Only in the revenue from Gazprom selling of the oil.

kbronsito: You are right in that Ukraine would be smart not to blow up the pipes... but holding them hostage is different.

Ukraine once tried to hold the pipes hostage. That's why Nord Stream pipeline was born, directly from Russia to Germany. Also, large gas storages were built in Europe, and I bet my hat they were filled with gas right from the first moment there were disturbances in Ukraine.

Ukraine tried to take part of gas going to Europe for itself. Didn't go well. Stockholm court have ordered Ukraine to return the stolen gas to Russia.

Putin doesn't react well to blackmail. And if the pipes will be turned off, Putin will likely be able to continue to sell gas to Europe, while Ukraine will suffer total crush of its economy and industry, completely dependent on Russian gas and oil. That is, the part of economy and industry which haven't crushed already...

Europe is ready to sell gas to Ukraine, but only for market price - or in other words, the same price Putin offers right now.

You know how I know you didn't read the article?


He probably read it very carefully, and then spent some time thinking about what to say this time to promote Russia's position/claim.  He may honestly believe what he says, or he may be lying through his teeth, but in any case he's going to say pretty much whatever justifies Putin.
 
2014-04-09 05:22:50 PM  

rev. dave: I wonder if the Russians in eastern Ukraine have considered that they are between 2 groups who might fight on their land.


The Russians in Eastern Ukraine by and large want to stay Ukrainian. There's a difference between wanting closer ties to Russia foreign policy wise and wanting to be annexed. The disturbances we've seen this week have pretty obviously been Russian plants trying to cause a ruckus.
 
2014-04-09 05:28:08 PM  

Grahor: dancindan84: Any bets on them having restarted their program since it's become obvious the US and UK aren't backing up their end of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances?

Oh, they are certainly going to. It's a very popular idea in Ukraine.

dancindan84: Any idea how long that would take?

Let me think... Right now Ukraine is collecting money for its army through sms. Like, you know, "send sms at that number if you love your Country and want to stop Russians from capturing it!" That's mostly for soldiers' wages and oil (do you know that army consumes unholy amount of oil?)

So, considering financial investments necessary for nuclear development... mmmm... Oh, it's 2 months, 11 days and 7 hours after they fix their economy! And that'll probably just take no more than a year after Ukraine will stop being the country with most corruption in Europe, even more than Russia and Moldova. So, like, eleventy forevers?


More Corruption than Russia? Considering that Russia is run by criminals and that the Russian mob, in and out of country, frequently carries out hits for Putin, I don't think that's possible. Corruption in Russia is at 100%; it is a government entirely OF corruption, with no accountability or regard for its people.
 
2014-04-09 05:29:36 PM  

dittybopper: cameroncrazy1984: dittybopper: nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.

Sure it will.  For Russia.

In what scenario does it end well for Russia?

They end up completely controlling the Ukraine like they did before the breakup of the Soviet Union.

No one thinks the Ukrainians will be able to mount a serious resistance, and *WE* certainly aren't going to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine.

They've been gearing up for it.  You know it's going to happen.


I've been assured by the Fark Diplomats that sanctions will stop Putin any time now.
 
2014-04-09 05:33:41 PM  

a particular individual: How did subby manage to use "it's" incorrectly, and then use "its" correctly in the headline?


Behold! The power of Fark.
 
2014-04-09 05:34:50 PM  
Use Russia's tactics. Send some thugs to shut the pipe down then disavow responsibility.
 
2014-04-09 05:36:07 PM  

Grahor: This text is now purple: The Ukrainian air force won't fight for eastern Ukraine in Donetsk. They'll fight for Ukraine in Moscow.


You know, it's comments like this that make me fume. Let's forget for a second that Ukraine has, like, 10% of active planes compared to Russia. (like, 80 Sukhoy planes of all kinds, none last generation, against 1080 Sukhoy planes for Russia, with at least half last generation).


So, because someone says something that sounds nationalistic for Ukraine, you go on a 2 paragraph rant about how angry you are anyone would SUGGEST Russia might suffer some losses if their victims fought back.

But hey, you're no traitor!  And it's certainly not YOUR desire to see your country conquered and ruled over by Russia!  You assured us all that it's only those dirty, mean ol' non-Russians oppressing your poor, oppressed Ethnically Russian family and friends that FORCE you to be happy when Russian troops commit various criminal acts in foreign countries.

Really.
 
2014-04-09 05:38:39 PM  

Heron: dittybopper: cameroncrazy1984: dittybopper: nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.

Sure it will.  For Russia.

In what scenario does it end well for Russia?

They end up completely controlling the Ukraine like they did before the breakup of the Soviet Union.

No one thinks the Ukrainians will be able to mount a serious resistance, and *WE* certainly aren't going to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine.

They've been gearing up for it.  You know it's going to happen.

I don't know; the Russia military, and in particular its personnel, aren't in very good shape(public health is horrible in Russia, and their military forces are no better) and Ukraine is big. Invading Ukraine would be a totally different kettle of fish than what they did in Georgia, and even there they were smart enough not to try and stay. We might not want to engage directly with the Russian military, but we can, on our own and through the Europeans, do plenty to aggravate such a campaign, making it even more painful for him than the Ukrainian military and para-militaries behind Russian lines would.



Russias military is also grossly misrepresented as some sort of massive unstoppable machine.  They may have a lot of hardware but their military philosophy is archaic and their officer corps is a jumble of scheming, politicking and nepotism.  Capturing the Ukraine through sheer force of numbers is one thing, but holding it is quite another.
 
2014-04-09 05:39:01 PM  

svanmeter: Use Russia's tactics. Send some thugs to shut the pipe down then disavow responsibility.


Blow that bastart up.

Whoops! Must be the Chechens!
 
2014-04-09 05:39:10 PM  

This text is now purple: What do they have to lose? Russia's coming for the whole thing anyway. And Russia sort of likes its ethnic cleansing. Just ask the Ukrainians.


Heh. I don't even know where to start. :) What makes you think that Russia is coming for the whole thing? It may be argued that Putin may consider invading and assimilating East Ukraine. But the whole thing?

Also, let's also assume that Stalin's ethnic policies are what Putin has in mind for Ukraine. However, currently ethnicity in Russia is a matter of personal choice; whatever ethnicity you want to be, you are. Any Ukrainian scared of persecution may simply say that he's Russian, was always Russian, hurray Russia! 100% of Ukrainians know Russian perfectly or nearly perfectly, so it's not hard to pull off. That's, at least, my plan if Russia ever invades Latvia and I'll be too old or infirm to get to the border with Poland in time.
 
2014-04-09 05:44:19 PM  

svanmeter: Use Russia's tactics. Send some thugs to shut the pipe down then disavow responsibility.


Sure would be a shame if those mysterious thugs were driving unmarked M1 Abrams tanks.

I mean, if you are going to get involved in a trolling contest, troll big!
 
2014-04-09 05:44:32 PM  

nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.


Increase the fee for using the pipeline by 85%
 
2014-04-09 05:45:26 PM  

ciberido: CruJones: Grahor: kbronsito: Ukraine doesn't actually have to shut the gas off... just the fact that they've said this out loud has probably already had an effect on the Gazprom stock.

Russian government owns Gazprom stock.

Russian government doesn't care about the value of the Gazprom stock because they are not going to sell it, ever. Gazprom stock may fall below zero and Russia will not care, because it's not interested in the value of Gazprom stocks. Only in the revenue from Gazprom selling of the oil.

kbronsito: You are right in that Ukraine would be smart not to blow up the pipes... but holding them hostage is different.

Ukraine once tried to hold the pipes hostage. That's why Nord Stream pipeline was born, directly from Russia to Germany. Also, large gas storages were built in Europe, and I bet my hat they were filled with gas right from the first moment there were disturbances in Ukraine.

Ukraine tried to take part of gas going to Europe for itself. Didn't go well. Stockholm court have ordered Ukraine to return the stolen gas to Russia.

Putin doesn't react well to blackmail. And if the pipes will be turned off, Putin will likely be able to continue to sell gas to Europe, while Ukraine will suffer total crush of its economy and industry, completely dependent on Russian gas and oil. That is, the part of economy and industry which haven't crushed already...

Europe is ready to sell gas to Ukraine, but only for market price - or in other words, the same price Putin offers right now.

You know how I know you didn't read the article?

He probably read it very carefully, and then spent some time thinking about what to say this time to promote Russia's position/claim.  He may honestly believe what he says, or he may be lying through his teeth, but in any case he's going to say pretty much whatever justifies Putin.



I like having one obvious shill around so I can stay infromed as to the Russian view of Gloriously Manly Leader's activities.

And whatever he's rantiest about is probably a good "tell" as to where reality gets problematic for Russia.
 
2014-04-09 05:45:59 PM  

Grahor: This text is now purple: The Ukrainian air force won't fight for eastern Ukraine in Donetsk. They'll fight for Ukraine in Moscow.

You know, it's comments like this that make me fume. Let's forget for a second that Ukraine has, like, 10% of active planes compared to Russia. (like, 80 Sukhoy planes of all kinds, none last generation, against 1080 Sukhoy planes for Russia, with at least half last generation).

But the moment one single plane will attack Moscow, it's all over for Ukraine. Childish desire "to punish impudent hohols for their loutishness" will turn into steely determination to exterminate "the foreign enemy that dared to touch the holy soil of motherland". Russia will simply declare total mobilization, cut all the talks with the West, probably including cutting all the gas for Europe, and will just overwhelm Ukraine without any consideration for its own losses.

That's why there is no chance in hell anyone in Ukraine will even consider that type of escalation.


Let me get this straight.

In a hypothetical fight for survival as an independent nation, the Ukrainian military wouldn't try to strike into Russia and would fight only on the defensive ...because Russia would invade them more?  When they're fighting the country who literally farking genocided them within living memory?

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-09 05:47:14 PM  

Donnchadha: Isn't this the whole reason why Russia wants to annex Crimea?


Crimea, military access.

Ukraine, pipelines


Hard to gobble them all in one shot.  Take small bites.

fireclown: Alassra: If Ukraine flips that switch, I think (despite how it might be initially painful for them), Europe will silently be cheering.

And reaching for their sweaters.


They don't have to worry about that shiat....until 28 Weeks Later.
 
2014-04-09 05:48:38 PM  

Grahor: Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: "I'm Vladmir Putin, and I approve of this message because if capitalism taught me anything its the value of paid propaganda- er- marketing. Da, marketing."

What was actually wrong with my post, other than you not liking it?

You know, there was such a newspaper in my youth. It was called "Pravda". Whenever it didn't like someone's criticism, it didn't try to fight it with truth or with counter-argument or with anything else. It just proclaimed the author of that criticism a hireling of dastardly western imperialists, and that was that - everything that person ever said or will say was automatically dismissed, without any need to elaborate on why it was wrong.

Now, I understand, that sometimes the source is so biased, there is no point in even paying attention to it. Point in case: Fox News. However, I don't think I've written anything that warrants such attitude. As far as I know, nothing I've said here was factually incorrect. If it was, please show it to me (with evidence, if I would be as bold to ask). For example, if the economies of aforementioned countries are not dependent on Russian gas, I'll be glad to look at any data.


Are you still being paid 10 Ruble a comment comrade?
 
2014-04-09 05:51:17 PM  
Grahor:
Also, let's also assume that Stalin's ethnic policies are what Putin has in mind for Ukraine. However, currently ethnicity in Russia is a matter of personal choice; whatever ethnicity you want to be, you are. Any Ukrainian scared of persecution may simply say that he's Russian, was always Russian, hurray Russia! 100% of Ukrainians know Russian perfectly or nearly perfectly, so it's not hard to pull off. That's, at least, my plan if Russia ever invades Latvia and I'll be too old or infirm to get to the border with Poland in time.

img.fark.net

what

did you

Did you REALLY just say all you had to do to avoid a genocide is simply claim you're not a member of the target people?  ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING ME?!
 
2014-04-09 05:51:18 PM  

ciberido: He may honestly believe what he says, or he may be lying through his teeth, but in any case he's going to say pretty much whatever justifies Putin.


Could you please point out what in anything that I've said in the thread justifies Putin in any way whatsoever? I was trying to correct some misconceptions, but how is that "justifying Putin" even a little bit?

Heron: More Corruption than Russia?


If we are to believe Transparency International.  http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results The difference is 3 points, which is, like, nothing, but still.

I'm not arguing that Russia isn't corrupt through and through. But so is Ukraine. Oligarchs have a LOT of power in Ukraine, and they are inevitably champions of corruption.
 
2014-04-09 05:56:02 PM  

Heron: rev. dave: I wonder if the Russians in eastern Ukraine have considered that they are between 2 groups who might fight on their land.

The Russians in Eastern Ukraine by and large want to stay Ukrainian. There's a difference between wanting closer ties to Russia foreign policy wise and wanting to be annexed. The disturbances we've seen this week have pretty obviously been Russian plants trying to cause a ruckus.


The image I had was Ukrainian artillery and rockets bombing the Russians as they invade.  Thus affecting the Russians who live in those areas.  And then Russia doing the same to Ukraine as they send forces into the Russian areas.  Lots of civilians suddenly rethinking their decision to secede.
 
2014-04-09 05:58:56 PM  

Grahor: This text is now purple: What do they have to lose? Russia's coming for the whole thing anyway. And Russia sort of likes its ethnic cleansing. Just ask the Ukrainians.

Heh. I don't even know where to start. :) What makes you think that Russia is coming for the whole thing? It may be argued that Putin may consider invading and assimilating East Ukraine. But the whole thing?

Also, let's also assume that Stalin's ethnic policies are what Putin has in mind for Ukraine. However, currently ethnicity in Russia is a matter of personal choice; whatever ethnicity you want to be, you are. Any Ukrainian scared of persecution may simply say that he's Russian, was always Russian, hurray Russia! 100% of Ukrainians know Russian perfectly or nearly perfectly, so it's not hard to pull off. That's, at least, my plan if Russia ever invades Latvia and I'll be too old or infirm to get to the border with Poland in time.


Wow.

I don't even know what to say to this. This is just incredibly sad.
 
2014-04-09 06:01:30 PM  

Grahor: Heh. I don't even know where to start. :) What makes you think that Russia is coming for the whole thing?


Besides World War I, the Polish-Ukrainian War, the Polish-Soviet War, The Winter War, World War II, the Hungarian Uprising, the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, the first two Chechen Wars, the most recent Georgia war, and the Crimean war?

And that's just Europe, within the last century. Five of those were wars within Ukraine.
 
2014-04-09 06:05:20 PM  

NEDM: In a hypothetical fight for survival as an independent nation, the Ukrainian military wouldn't try to strike into Russia and would fight only on the defensive ...because Russia would invade them more?


Er, yes? Actually, I think that if Putin would invade East Ukraine, Ukrainian military will not fight at all, as it wasn't fighting in Crimea. For the same reason.

NEDM: When they're fighting the country who literally farking genocided them within living memory?


Right now there is no visa regime between Russia and Ukraine. If Ukrainian wants to go to Russia, he doesn't need a visa. Similarly if a Russian wants to go to Ukraine, he doesn't need visa, at least yet. Ukraine only thinks about starting issuing visas. Right now, after Crimea, after everything, citizens of Russia and Ukraine are free to move between countries without visas. And they do.

I don't think Ukrainians and Russians are thinking about each other as of actual mortal enemies. Not yet anyway.

NEDM: Did you REALLY just say all you had to do to avoid a genocide is simply claim you're not a member of the target people? ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING ME?!

 

No, I'm not kidding you. At least half of citizens of Ukraine are Russians. What is the difference between ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian? There are no actual documents where your ethnicity is registered. There was a census in 2001, I think but the whole "ethnicity" thing there was purely voluntary and I don't think it's in any way documented as in "this person = this ethnicity". Neither Russian or Ukrainian documents have ethnicity fields.

Sure, cultural and political national leaders will not be able to declare themselves Russians, but for a common person from the street, how would theoretical death squads discern Russians and Ukrainians? They all speak with the same accent, they have same documents and everything?
 
2014-04-09 06:10:12 PM  
P.S. Err, in "half of citizens" I didn't mean literally half. Ethnically more than half of the people in Ukraine have Ukrainian ethnic roots. But roughly half uses Russian in everyday life as their native language, and if your native language is Russian, you are, by Russians' definition, a Russian. Even if you are captivatingly Kenyan.
 
2014-04-09 06:11:04 PM  
Grahor: What was actually wrong with my post, other than you not liking it?

This is FARK. It's not like he needs any more reason to declare you a non-person. Heck, your confused reaction has probably encouraged a dozen more trolls to start calling you a propagandist, just because it seems to have offended you... blood in the water attracting sharks.

/that's freedom of speech for you
//lots of people love the thought of being able to say whatever they want without fear of government retribution
///until they find out it also means all the people that hate them can do the same
 
2014-04-09 06:11:28 PM  

Grahor: NEDM: In a hypothetical fight for survival as an independent nation, the Ukrainian military wouldn't try to strike into Russia and would fight only on the defensive ...because Russia would invade them more?

Er, yes? Actually, I think that if Putin would invade East Ukraine, Ukrainian military will not fight at all, as it wasn't fighting in Crimea. For the same reason.

NEDM: When they're fighting the country who literally farking genocided them within living memory?

Right now there is no visa regime between Russia and Ukraine. If Ukrainian wants to go to Russia, he doesn't need a visa. Similarly if a Russian wants to go to Ukraine, he doesn't need visa, at least yet. Ukraine only thinks about starting issuing visas. Right now, after Crimea, after everything, citizens of Russia and Ukraine are free to move between countries without visas. And they do.

I don't think Ukrainians and Russians are thinking about each other as of actual mortal enemies. Not yet anyway.

NEDM: Did you REALLY just say all you had to do to avoid a genocide is simply claim you're not a member of the target people? ARE YOU FARKING KIDDING ME?! 

No, I'm not kidding you. At least half of citizens of Ukraine are Russians. What is the difference between ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian? There are no actual documents where your ethnicity is registered. There was a census in 2001, I think but the whole "ethnicity" thing there was purely voluntary and I don't think it's in any way documented as in "this person = this ethnicity". Neither Russian or Ukrainian documents have ethnicity fields.

Sure, cultural and political national leaders will not be able to declare themselves Russians, but for a common person from the street, how would theoretical death squads discern Russians and Ukrainians? They all speak with the same accent, they have same documents and everything?


Why not give up the Russian name then. Join them and call yourselves Ukrainians. Let Ukraine absorb the former territory known as Russia.

No one should ever have to change who they identify as just to avoid death, fark-stick.
 
2014-04-09 06:11:40 PM  

Falin: Wow.

I don't even know what to say to this. This is just incredibly sad.


Why is it sad? Please, keep in mind that in this post I was talking to a person whom I consider a troll, for now, so I was using reductio ad absurdum.
 
2014-04-09 06:15:23 PM  

Stone Meadow: tinyarena: CruJones: Grahor:
Putin doesn't react well to blackmail. blah blah blah,,,

You know how I know you didn't read the article?
don't bother pointing out the obvious,
Grahor is russian shill
Lost Ukraine = brilliant move by Putin!
Invade tiny peninsula where they already had bases = brilliant move by Putin!
Turkey threatens to shut their fleet in the Black Seal = brilliant move by Putin!
Sanctions costing Russia over 100 Billion this year = brilliant move by Putin!

you get the idea, the man is a GENIUS!

Yeah, nothing like driving Ukraine into the arms of the Europeans, and the Europeans into the arms of the Americans. Simply brilliant, Mr. Putin.


Putin doesn't care about any of that. He's more popular than ever in Russia.

/ which is why he may balk at starting a real war with Russians dying in Ukraine.
 
2014-04-09 06:15:54 PM  
If I was Ukraine, I would set up explosives every 500 feet of Druzhba Oil pipeline and the Soyuz  and Brotherhood Gas lines. Then tell Russia back off, or you might invade, but you'll be replacing 3,000 miles of pipeline.
 
2014-04-09 06:17:04 PM  

Grahor: Falin: Wow.

I don't even know what to say to this. This is just incredibly sad.

Why is it sad? Please, keep in mind that in this post I was talking to a person whom I consider a troll, for now, so I was using reductio ad absurdum.


given your public cock- sucking of Putin recently, I'm highly dubious to this being your intention.
 
2014-04-09 06:19:19 PM  

nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.


It'll be a smorgasbord of pure awesomeness. Russia invades the rest of Ukraine, NATO invades Russia, Russian oligarchs shoot Putin and offer to restore everything back to what it was prior to the Ukraine aggression (with some additional concessions), Ukraine becomes a whole country again, and there's Bigfoot nuggets for everyone!

Doooooooo eeeeeeeit.
 
2014-04-09 06:25:28 PM  

Tatterdemalian: This is FARK. It's not like he needs any more reason to declare you a non-person. Heck, your confused reaction has probably encouraged a dozen more trolls to start calling you a propagandist, just because it seems to have offended you... blood in the water attracting sharks.


It's not that he offended me. It's just that I really do not want people - other people, lurkers, other posters - to just assume that I'm some kind of paid shill and dismiss me.

I am completely honest in my opinions and views, and I really post what I think. I may be wrong, and in this case, why not to try to convince me? After all, even though I've grown up behind Iron Curtain (which was never as Iron as people tend to think), I've grown up on books of Bradbury and Asimov, Heinlein and Zelazny. I read mostly books by English-speaking authors (hell, I've started to perfect my English to be able to read Prattchet's books, and appreciate his humor, in original), and my favorite series are the Daily Show and Colbert's report. My ideals and values are liberal European ideals and values, or so I fancy, at least.

If you can't find common language with me, convince me that your vision of the world and situation is right and mine is wrong, what chance do you have with truly different cultures?
 
2014-04-09 06:28:02 PM  

nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.


Invading and overtaking another country wasn't?
 
2014-04-09 06:32:31 PM  
"Putin doesn't care about any of that. He's more popular than ever in Russia.

/ which is why he may balk at starting a real war with Russians dying in Ukraine."

He probably won't need to. Revolutionaries like the protestors controlling West Ukraine seldom make plans for what comes after their revolution succeeds, and almost never for when it goes wrong, like it is now. All Putin really needs to do is uphold his promise to "protect" Russian people in the Ukraine, and wait for the revolutionaries to either screw up something to the point that West Ukraine votes to join Russia just to spite the pro-West parties, or they give him an excuse to move his troops in "non-violently" to "protect" Russian minorities one province at a time, until the whole country is occupied, then put it to a "vote" that turns out to favor unification with Russia by 107%.
 
2014-04-09 06:38:32 PM  

Grahor: CruJones: You know how I know you didn't read the article?

No. Educate me. I'm holding my breath in anticipation.


I read that in a Russian accent.img.fark.net
 
2014-04-09 06:39:12 PM  

nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.


Nuke the bastards.

/John McCain wants to
 
2014-04-09 06:41:20 PM  

Some Coke Drinking Guy: LAW rockets, some claymore mines, and a hell of a lot of Stinger missiles


Party like it's 1989.
 
2014-04-09 06:42:56 PM  
This is all starting to sound like a Clancy novel.
 
2014-04-09 06:43:38 PM  

Grahor: Tatterdemalian: This is FARK. It's not like he needs any more reason to declare you a non-person. Heck, your confused reaction has probably encouraged a dozen more trolls to start calling you a propagandist, just because it seems to have offended you... blood in the water attracting sharks.

It's not that he offended me. It's just that I really do not want people - other people, lurkers, other posters - to just assume that I'm some kind of paid shill and dismiss me.

I am completely honest in my opinions and views, and I really post what I think. I may be wrong, and in this case, why not to try to convince me? After all, even though I've grown up behind Iron Curtain (which was never as Iron as people tend to think), I've grown up on books of Bradbury and Asimov, Heinlein and Zelazny. I read mostly books by English-speaking authors (hell, I've started to perfect my English to be able to read Prattchet's books, and appreciate his humor, in original), and my favorite series are the Daily Show and Colbert's report. My ideals and values are liberal European ideals and values, or so I fancy, at least.

If you can't find common language with me, convince me that your vision of the world and situation is right and mine is wrong, what chance do you have with truly different cultures?


You do realize that fark libs never haveto back up their opinion, they are due to them belonging to group think . They will never provide a cite but always ask for yours. They will misconstrue your posts intentionally. Then when all else fails they resort to ad hominem. They have even recently taken up Obamas end all argument that you at on the wrong side of history, argument done.

Notice they call you a shill for pointing out facts. They actually do believe obama has issued harsh sanctions which have turned Russia back. It is laughable at best. Even those sanctioned were laughing.
 
2014-04-09 06:44:51 PM  

Tatterdemalian: He probably won't need to. Revolutionaries like the protestors controlling West Ukraine seldom make plans for what comes after their revolution succeeds, and almost never for when it goes wrong, like it is now. All Putin really needs to do is uphold his promise to "protect" Russian people in the Ukraine, and wait for the revolutionaries to either screw up something to the point that West Ukraine votes to join Russia just to spite the pro-West parties, or they give him an excuse to move his troops in "non-violently" to "protect" Russian minorities one province at a time, until the whole country is occupied, then put it to a "vote" that turns out to favor unification with Russia by 107%.


Yep, pretty much this.  And Putin isn't in a hurry. If this time the opportunity will not present itself, there is always next time. For example, the most likely winner of Ukraine's presidential election is Poroshenko. Poroshenko is a classic oligarch, who is in Ukrainian politics since 2001. And Ukrainian politics were pretty corrupt all those years. What are the chances that Poroshenko will screw the pouch and bring another explosion of popular wrath, or screw the economy, or fail in any of the hundreds of other ways a politician may fail in a country in such a desperate state?

Putin will still be there to pick up the pieces.

That's why it's utterly important for the West to do everything and beyond to help Ukraine not to screw thing up, not just now, but through future years. Very active involvement in de-corruptisation of the country, spreading western worldview through population, including Russian-speaking, through really well thought-out, funded and executed propaganda counter-balances to Russia's propaganda, and so on.

That is, if the West really wants to help Ukraine.
 
2014-04-09 06:49:19 PM  

Tatterdemalian: Grahor: What was actually wrong with my post, other than you not liking it?

This is FARK. It's not like he needs any more reason to declare you a non-person. Heck, your confused reaction has probably encouraged a dozen more trolls to start calling you a propagandist, just because it seems to have offended you... blood in the water attracting sharks.

/that's freedom of speech for you
//lots of people love the thought of being able to say whatever they want without fear of government retribution
///until they find out it also means all the people that hate them can do the same


Yeah, I don't get it either.  I see his posts and think at the very least I'm getting the opinion of someone from the region.  I don't take any of it as gospel, but I do find the comments interesting.
 
2014-04-09 06:54:23 PM  

dittybopper: cameroncrazy1984: dittybopper: nmrsnr: Which might be construed as an act of war by Russia. This might not end well.

Sure it will.  For Russia.

In what scenario does it end well for Russia?

They end up completely controlling the Ukraine like they did before the breakup of the Soviet Union.

No one thinks the Ukrainians will be able to mount a serious resistance, and *WE* certainly aren't going to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine.

They've been gearing up for it.  You know it's going to happen.


I think Europe would put cuba/Iran style embargoes on Russia of they did that.

70% of Russia gdp is oil exports. That would cripple them without invading.
 
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