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(Boston Herald)   Massachusetts governor: I'm banning this new drug because it's dangerous: Drug maker: You and what FDA?   (bostonherald.com) divider line 172
    More: Interesting, Massachusetts Governor, FDA, Massachusetts, new drugs, drug companies, state Department of Public Health  
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11028 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Apr 2014 at 9:01 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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MFK
2014-04-08 10:12:18 AM  

jtown: MFK: jtown: wyltoknow: Even if there is a huge problem with opiads in the state, what does banning this one drug do? Absolutely nothing. Even if patrick banned every opiad, which would be insane, it still would hardly dent the problem. Just another politician pretending that theyre fixing the problem. How about some actual solutions? Why is opiate abuse so heavy in the state? What is causing people to turn to this drug? Where are the efforts to rehabilitate?

I'm guessing if you dig down, you'll find that the governor has close ties to some other opioid manufacturer.  A friend or relative, a significant investment, big campaign donor, etc.

I'm guessing that you have no idea how bad the heroin problem in New England is. In Vermont, the governor devoted most of the State of the State speech to it. It's seriously "that bad".

I don't need to know how bad it is to know that banning one (1) prescribed opioid does not address a drug abuse problem.  To have an effect, they must  all be banned.  If only one is banned, the reason it was banned can't be to address a drug abuse problem.  ?Comprende?


this is a great example of why we can't have a serious discussion on anything anymore. If a proposal to a problem isn't a magic bullet and only addresses a part of the problem, then it's declared to be a waste of time and not worth the effort.

The problem with this particular drug is that it's super pure, highly addictive and this company is suing to make it widely available in a region in the grips of the worst Heroin epidemic tin has ever faced. It's not like it's the only pain medicine on the market. This is an example of a people learning from recent history and attempting to not make the same mistakes and allow a dangerous product into the market just because there's a buck to be made by someone. 10-15 years ago, Oxy Contin was the "new wonder drug for pain". While it may have been very effective in that regard, it also created a whole new class of addicts. People who would've never thought twice about shooting up heroin had no problem snagging a couple pills from grandma's cabinet. Once the people in charge got wise to what had happened, they implemented serious reforms but the damage had already been done and people who were using pharmaceuticals now found themselves without an affordable fix and where heroin had originally been the hardest of sells now had a seemingly innocuous "gateway" for thousands and thousands of new opioid pill addicts.

I see this move by Patrick as a smart move to get in front of the "new Oxy" before it makes a bad situation even worse. Heaven forbid we learn anything from history.
 
2014-04-08 10:13:25 AM  

Arkanaut: Thunderpipes: Wait, so if someone likes a drug, it should be legal, but if they don't like it, it should be illegal?

Isn't that how pot became so illegal in the first place? Nothing wrong with prescription medication. What is wrong with why they are getting to the general public.

I believe the science shows opiates are more addictive and far more potentially deadly than pot. That should inform the decision-making too.


It should, but reason and information has never stopped the government from making catastrophic mistakes in the past.
 
2014-04-08 10:14:32 AM  

Betep: bborchar: somedude210: This is the one that should've never gotten through the FDA and is very very very easy to overdose on, right?

I have no problem with Patrick doing this, if that's the case. New England is facing a massive opiate problem

My problem is where does governor have the power to do such a thing?  And if he's allowed to do it, what's stopping other conservative governors from banning drugs like birth control?

He overstepped his bounds and needs to leave this up to the correct authorities.

Pay attention kid.
It seems you have an axe to grind being a liberal and all, but we're talking about Obama Lite here.


Oh, you missed the point.  He meant that it's awesome this governor is doing this, but it would be terrible if those stupid conservatives started forcing children on the population.  Therefore, for the greater good, the Mass.ter race must be held back.
 
2014-04-08 10:16:04 AM  

jtown: Thank you for missing the point of my comments entirely.  My theory is that this has to do with the governor or someone close to the governor making a lot of money by having the competition eliminated and nothing at all to do with preventing drug abuse or eliminating pain medication.


It's not that your theory wasn't heard, it's just that a baseless theory isn't worth a whole lot.

This thread includes lots of comments about what else he is doing in the interest of improving the addiction epidemic in his state. There just isn't much of anything to support your claim. Forgive people if it's not that interesting to debate in a serious fashion.
 
MFK
2014-04-08 10:17:41 AM  

vudukungfu: somedude210: New England is facing a massive opiate problem

And it is being handled wrong.
Small scale, if your kid is on it, you go tough love, cold turkey, and where did you get it and put the dealer behind bars, and keep the kid off.
Large scale, Oh, boo hoo. let's give them an alternative addiction, dont' ask where they got it, put in clinics, and pillows and tax the public and don't come down like a ton of bricks on people selling poison on our streets.

Clinics should work like this. You walk in. You get strapped to a cot.
You want something to drink? Water.
Eat? Bread.
Want something else? Tell us who you got the junk from and we get a conviction and we'll talk peanut butter and orange juice.

LEOs should work like this: You get caught selling it you get to see a Judge. Judge should grant as much bail as if they had been selling ricin or anthrax. And charged the same. And put away the same.
Come down like a ton of granite on them and put the word out.
You get hooked, you get cold turkey
You get caught dealing, you get the max.
Do.No.Budge.an inch on this. they will walk all over you if you give them anything else.
Boo hoo. Knock it off.


All that will happen is that the dealers will then get their junky addicts to be the new "storefront".  A heroin addict is basically a slave to their addition. They will do "whatever it takes" to get a fix. This is often not a rational choice.  Locking up low level street dealers is a waste of time and tax money because the second one guy goes away, another one will pop up in his place. Treatment of addiction is the only way to combat this problem. The ones who are behind everything are another matter, however. If all of the resources wasted on the drug war were actually applied to going after the cartels and actual drug-runners, you might see the needle move a bit.
 
2014-04-08 10:18:20 AM  

Pangea: RyansPrivates:I too have known my share of heroin/opiod addicts, and I blame the pushers: the doctors that prescribed the medicne to begin with without proper oversight/patient interaction.

The addict is the only one in the equation who can conclude that they are indeed an addict. Just because someone abuses a drug doesn't mean the doctor shouldn't be allowed to prescribe it to people who can use the drug without abusing it.

One of the most polished tools in an addict's toolbox is the ability to manipulate and lie. Second guessing every patient's motives is NOT the responsibility of a doctor who feels they are reasonably improving someone's existence.

I have no problem placing a significant portion of the blame on the addict, and I say this as someone in recovery myself.


You are correct, the addict is not without blame. However, it is the responsibility of health care providers to be as diligent as possible to prevent this, we also may need to change the laws and practices to some extent.  I think one of the big problems is over prescription of these drugs.  That is why I think we need to start with the doctors.  The problem, of course, is big pharma loves this over prescription since it lines their pockets.
 
2014-04-08 10:19:44 AM  

vudukungfu: somedude210: New England is facing a massive opiate problem

And it is being handled wrong.
Small scale, if your kid is on it, you go tough love, cold turkey, and where did you get it and put the dealer behind bars, and keep the kid off.
Large scale, Oh, boo hoo. let's give them an alternative addiction, dont' ask where they got it, put in clinics, and pillows and tax the public and don't come down like a ton of bricks on people selling poison on our streets.

Clinics should work like this. You walk in. You get strapped to a cot.
You want something to drink? Water.
Eat? Bread.
Want something else? Tell us who you got the junk from and we get a conviction and we'll talk peanut butter and orange juice.

LEOs should work like this: You get caught selling it you get to see a Judge. Judge should grant as much bail as if they had been selling ricin or anthrax. And charged the same. And put away the same.
Come down like a ton of granite on them and put the word out.
You get hooked, you get cold turkey
You get caught dealing, you get the max.
Do.No.Budge.an inch on this. they will walk all over you if you give them anything else.
Boo hoo. Knock it off.


You act like every condition requiring pain management is temporary.

You act like every "dealer" is a street dealer.

Your world view is too myopic to be taken seriously.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-federal-judge-sentences-florida-pill-mill-do ct ors-230514610.html
 
2014-04-08 10:19:49 AM  

somedude210: wyltoknow: Even if there is a huge problem with opiads in the state, what does banning this one drug do? Absolutely nothing. Even if patrick banned every opiad, which would be insane, it still would hardly dent the problem. Just another politician pretending that theyre fixing the problem. How about some actual solutions? Why is opiate abuse so heavy in the state? What is causing people to turn to this drug? Where are the efforts to rehabilitate?

This is a very powerful opiate that is legal to sell via prescription and was approved by the FDA in shady as fark circumstances. Patrick is doing more about this problem then just banning this one drug. MA recently passed a bill putting the anti-overdose drug (I forget the name) as standard equipment for paramedics, we've implemented an incredibly successful drug court program that focuses on rehabilitation and not imprisonment and this drug came out of no where and has tossed a massive monkey wrench into the works to counter the epidemic.

as for the causes, the cost of prescription opiates that the pill popping craze started with years ago have become incredibly expensive and heroin has dropped in price and gives you a similar high, so the pill-poppers have all started to switch to heroin and went from spending $300/week to $300/month. Boston's NPR station did a very in-depth investigation when Markey was trying to help Taunton out with the opiate problem


What?  There was a thread, a couple of days ago, about junkies in Chicago, where they had $200/day habits.  The cost doesn't go down, it goes up.
 
2014-04-08 10:20:21 AM  
I asked my fiancee (rx tech) just what Zohydro was, and she said "Oh, vicodin without the tylenol. Someone dropped off a scrip for it and we can't get it." If the wholesaler has issues getting it to pharmacies, Patrick probably doesn't have to worry too much about people getting it and abusing it. Besides, there are all the other non-apap pain killers to abuse, plus the illegal ones.

RyansPrivates: Recently broke my 5th metarsial.  Not pleasant mind you, but far from the most painful thing in the world.  But the doctor wrote a script for hydrocodone.  I never filled it.  I could manage my pain to a reasonable level with tylonol and cold/ice.  The doctors need to get out of the business of writing scripts for this stuff so much.


Hydrocodone, or hydro/apap (or vicoprofen)? What dose? I've had customers complain that the doc's prescribed too strong a dose, or too weak a dose, so they took the "as needed" part as "whenever you want". It also seems some have forgotten that they can prescribe non-opiate pain killers like tramadol or soma.
 
2014-04-08 10:22:14 AM  

somedude210: ruta: The problem is addiction. Deal with that, governor.

....he is. We have an incredibly successful drug court program for users to get help instead of going to jail. The problem here is that all our progress to helping addicts is being undercut by a legal, very powerful opiate.

jaybeezey: because it sucks to be so close to Patriot fans or because New England is 2 steps away from become Old England?

snark noted, but it's mostly because the pill popping phenomenon is far too expensive now, so those addicts are switching to cheaper heroin for the same high at half the price.


Apparently it needs to be said twenty times in this thread in twenty different ways: abolition doesn't work.

This drug isn't even "very powerful" compared to other opioids. It just doesn't have the acetaminophen in it so it's actually less likely to result in [horrible painful you-wouldn't-wish-on-anyone] death from liver failure which is a greater risk than opioid OD.

It's also not "legal" for recreational use. It's only legal for its intended use, by the person the prescription was written for. If the doctor is writing them ongoing scripts for a drug intended for unintended use, that doctor needs to be educated on pain management and/or sanctioned or charged. Maybe the drug needs to be moved up a schedule, but banning it will not solve the problem. Banning it only increases its street value, pushes users onto something else, and takes one tool out of the already frustratingly limited pain management toolbox for those who legitimately need it.

The governor has obviously not dealt with the problem of addiction if it remains a large problem. Maybe he's doing some things, but plainly not enough is being done. Addiction is not cured simply by removing the addictive substance.
 
2014-04-08 10:22:41 AM  

MFK: The problem with this particular drug is that it's super pure, highly addictive and this company is suing to make it widely available in a region in the grips of the worst Heroin epidemic tin has ever faced.


This is a Chewbacca defense of the governor's actions. Heroin is already widely available in the region, so you want to ban something that's safer than heroin because it's not produced and distributed by the black market? It makes no sense.
 
2014-04-08 10:23:10 AM  

hardinparamedic: Pangea: I have no problem placing a significant portion of the blame on the addict, and I say this as someone in recovery myself.

I have a feeling that  RyansPrivates is the kind of person who would withhold pain medication from someone with a broken leg because they asked for something for the pain.


Nope, not hardly.  I would, however, make sure it wasn't out regularly to every tom dick and harry who interacts with a doctor.  My case (of the broken foot) was my case.  My pain was manageable.  My doctor didn't even ask if I wanted pain medication; he just prescribed.  That is a problem. If need pain meds, you should get them, opoid or othewise.  We have these medicines and they should be used; they shouldn't, however, be the default script after every injury you see the doctor about.
 
2014-04-08 10:23:46 AM  
mike_d85 - Kind of like how there was a heroine epidemic right after Vietnam...

We had a large number of heroic women right after Vietnam?

/sorry, I could not resist
 
2014-04-08 10:23:47 AM  

RyansPrivates: That is why I think we need to start with the doctors.  The problem, of course, is big pharma loves this over prescription since it lines their pockets.


The problem is the doctors. But it's not for what you claim. It's a lack of education on pain management and proper prescribing practices. It's easier for a family practice doc to throw lortab or vicoden at someone than it is for them to get them to see a pain management specialist.
 
2014-04-08 10:23:47 AM  

Pangea: vudukungfu: somedude210: New England is facing a massive opiate problem

And it is being handled wrong.
Small scale, if your kid is on it, you go tough love, cold turkey, and where did you get it and put the dealer behind bars, and keep the kid off.
Large scale, Oh, boo hoo. let's give them an alternative addiction, dont' ask where they got it, put in clinics, and pillows and tax the public and don't come down like a ton of bricks on people selling poison on our streets.

Clinics should work like this. You walk in. You get strapped to a cot.
You want something to drink? Water.
Eat? Bread.
Want something else? Tell us who you got the junk from and we get a conviction and we'll talk peanut butter and orange juice.

LEOs should work like this: You get caught selling it you get to see a Judge. Judge should grant as much bail as if they had been selling ricin or anthrax. And charged the same. And put away the same.
Come down like a ton of granite on them and put the word out.
You get hooked, you get cold turkey
You get caught dealing, you get the max.
Do.No.Budge.an inch on this. they will walk all over you if you give them anything else.
Boo hoo. Knock it off.

You act like every condition requiring pain management is temporary.

You act like every "dealer" is a street dealer.

Your world view is too myopic to be taken seriously.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-federal-judge-sentences-florida-pill-mill-do ct ors-230514610.html


When someone takes that stance there are two possibilities.

1) They either are an addict or they know people who are and are unable to discuss the topic reasonably
2) They enjoy feeling like they are taking the tough guy stance

It's irrelevant to that sort of person that there's massive empirical evidence proving that what they are suggesting will fail. Results are not important. It doesn't even bother them that they are wrong. It's more about how it makes them feel in the act of saying it. Totally irrelevant to the discussion.
 
2014-04-08 10:25:42 AM  

ruta: If the doctor is writing them ongoing scripts for a drug intended for unintended use


Derp. "... for something other than the intended use,"
 
2014-04-08 10:26:36 AM  

RyansPrivates: I think one of the big problems is over prescription of these drugs.  That is why I think we need to start with the doctors.  The problem, of course, is big pharma loves this over prescription since it lines their pockets.


I agree with this, and it's disturbing to me. Not just with pain killers either. Sooo many people are on maintenance dosages of things that are essentially forever.

Fortunately my mom fought against putting me on ritalin when I was a little kid. Yes I was annoying and hyperactive, but I grew out of it. Being prescribed medication for the rest of my life wouldn't have been a good choice.

I guess we're in agreement as long as the blame is shared with the addict. There are definitely doctors who just prescribe something based on a symptom instead of trying to get to the root of the problem. It's a tough situation and people are dying as a result of it.
 
2014-04-08 10:28:13 AM  

jshine: Seems like -- if that guy had to rob a pharmacy -- that prescription opiates weren't *readily* available. I don't think robbery counts as ready-availability./ have had surgery a few times (will spare the details, but it wasn't pleasant) that involved being on opiates for a few weeks -- in a few cases, on a PCA pump that injected opiates (morphine or hydromorphone) continuously for nearly a week at a time// starting & stopping seemed like no big problem, and I was glad to have the pain control


I see your point, but look at it this way:  In any non-rural area there is a building in almost every neighborhood that has several thousand dollars of opium-based pills in it.  I'd be willing to bet that every single block in New York City has at least a handful of opiate pills in it. That seems pretty readily available to me.

You were properly prescribed pain medication, took it properly, and stopped using it as instructed.  Many people decide they liked that prescription and tell their doctor that there is still some pain on the follow up visit.  Not a lie, but just a dull ache that Tylenol could have curbed but the good stuff knocks it right out.  It can go downhill pretty fast from there.
 
MFK
2014-04-08 10:29:26 AM  

YixilTesiphon: MFK: The problem with this particular drug is that it's super pure, highly addictive and this company is suing to make it widely available in a region in the grips of the worst Heroin epidemic tin has ever faced.

This is a Chewbacca defense of the governor's actions. Heroin is already widely available in the region, so you want to ban something that's safer than heroin because it's not produced and distributed by the black market? It makes no sense.


Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.
 
2014-04-08 10:30:02 AM  

bborchar: somedude210: This is the one that should've never gotten through the FDA and is very very very easy to overdose on, right?

I have no problem with Patrick doing this, if that's the case. New England is facing a massive opiate problem

My problem is where does governor have the power to do such a thing?  And if he's allowed to do it, what's stopping other conservative governors from banning drugs like birth control?

He overstepped his bounds and needs to leave this up to the correct authorities.


He's in bounds... FDA exists because of the commerce clause... Patrick's ban does not affect interstate commerce, and since the ban is on sales, not on possession, it does not pose an obstacle to anyone's freedom of travel through the state.
 
2014-04-08 10:30:15 AM  

ruta: abolition doesn't work.


Also derp: the word I was looking for is prohibition. The 4 hours of sleep I got obviously isn't working for me.
 
2014-04-08 10:31:21 AM  

hardinparamedic: RyansPrivates: That is why I think we need to start with the doctors.  The problem, of course, is big pharma loves this over prescription since it lines their pockets.

The problem is the doctors. But it's not for what you claim. It's a lack of education on pain management and proper prescribing practices. It's easier for a family practice doc to throw lortab or vicoden at someone than it is for them to get them to see a pain management specialist.


Thanks for the info. Not a doctor, (obviously).  I would fully support your proposal, however.  Some of the best pain management I have ever had was meditation, for example

kittyhas1000legs: Hydrocodone, or hydro/apap (or vicoprofen)? What dose? I've had customers complain that the doc's prescribed too strong a dose, or too weak a dose, so they took the "as needed" part as "whenever you want". It also seems some have forgotten that they can prescribe non-opiate pain killers like tramadol or soma.


Not sure on the dose.  Agree on the second part of your statement, though.  Opiates have a place, but they aren't the only solution.  As mentioned above, I hadn't thought about pain management specialists as an option. I got a prescription for physical therapy with my foot, part of the prescription for those with more severe injuries might be opiates (or other painkiller) and a pain management specialist.  Not a doctor, but it seams reasonable to me.
 
2014-04-08 10:33:14 AM  

MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area.


Because that ban on heroin is doing such a swell job of keeping heroin out of the area.
 
2014-04-08 10:33:18 AM  

firefly212: bborchar: somedude210: This is the one that should've never gotten through the FDA and is very very very easy to overdose on, right?

I have no problem with Patrick doing this, if that's the case. New England is facing a massive opiate problem

My problem is where does governor have the power to do such a thing?  And if he's allowed to do it, what's stopping other conservative governors from banning drugs like birth control?

He overstepped his bounds and needs to leave this up to the correct authorities.

He's in bounds... FDA exists because of the commerce clause... Patrick's ban does not affect interstate commerce, and since the ban is on sales, not on possession, it does not pose an obstacle to anyone's freedom of travel through the state.


While an internally convincing argument the reality of it is that it will be biatchslapped senseless regardless.

This is from the system that gave us 'growing wheat for your own use and never selling it affects the overall wheat price so that's clearly interstate commerce"
 
2014-04-08 10:34:36 AM  
vudukungfu - and keep the kid off.

Umm... shouldn't you have been doing that in the first place?
 
2014-04-08 10:35:09 AM  

payattention: mike_d85 - Kind of like how there was a heroine epidemic right after Vietnam...

We had a large number of heroic women right after Vietnam?

/sorry, I could not resist


Well, there were a LOT of bra burnings...
 
2014-04-08 10:35:33 AM  

MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.


your house is on fire and you're trying desperately to put it out, some asshole got the fire department's permission to toss gasoline on your house. Are you not going to kick him in the balls to prevent him from doing that and making your problem worse?
 
2014-04-08 10:41:21 AM  

ruta: Because that ban on heroin is doing such a swell job of keeping heroin out of the area.


so what is your solution? Patrick is doing as much as he is legally bound to do. He has championed a bill to allow the anti-OD drug on ambulances, he's championed drug courts and increased rehab and out-patient therapy and he has made the population aware that there is a significant problem of heroin, pills and designer drugs out that that both the people and law enforcement need to be aware of.

While doing all this, some drug company paid off the FDA to approve their drug despite the FDA's own panel to vote overwhelmingly against legalizing this product. So in the middle of an epidemic you're fighting, some asshole just paid enough people off to let their drug into the legal marketplace. Are you just gonna sit by and let this shiat kill off your population? The population you've been trying to help?
 
2014-04-08 10:41:39 AM  

MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.


Prohibition doesn't work, so the governor is expanding it.

At best your argument is mendacious.
 
2014-04-08 10:42:25 AM  

somedude210: so what is your solution?


Recognize that the War on Drugs is ineffective and morally wrong and end it.
 
MFK
2014-04-08 10:42:48 AM  

ruta: MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area.

Because that ban on heroin is doing such a swell job of keeping heroin out of the area.


What's your point? That because some things beyond the control of the state, they should just throw up their hands and say "fark it" when it comes to the things that they can control?
 
2014-04-08 10:45:02 AM  

YixilTesiphon: somedude210: so what is your solution?

Recognize that the War on Drugs is ineffective and morally wrong and end it.


While I agree that you shouldn't send users to jail for using, we do have a drug problem and he's not tossing users in jail. He's trying to prevent gas from being poured on the fire.
 
2014-04-08 10:46:34 AM  

somedude210: YixilTesiphon: somedude210: so what is your solution?

Recognize that the War on Drugs is ineffective and morally wrong and end it.

While I agree that you shouldn't send users to jail for using, we do have a drug problem and he's not tossing users in jail. He's trying to prevent gas from being poured on the fire.


No, he isn't. No intelligent person, which Deval Patrick is, could think that bans on drugs work. They don't. They accomplish nothing except kill more people due to bad quality and black-market violence. He is simply pretending to do something.
 
2014-04-08 10:46:54 AM  

kittyhas1000legs: I asked my fiancee (rx tech) just what Zohydro was, and she said "Oh, vicodin without the tylenol. Someone dropped off a scrip for it and we can't get it." If the wholesaler has issues getting it to pharmacies, Patrick probably doesn't have to worry too much about people getting it and abusing it. Besides, there are all the other non-apap pain killers to abuse, plus the illegal ones.

RyansPrivates: Recently broke my 5th metarsial.  Not pleasant mind you, but far from the most painful thing in the world.  But the doctor wrote a script for hydrocodone.  I never filled it.  I could manage my pain to a reasonable level with tylonol and cold/ice.  The doctors need to get out of the business of writing scripts for this stuff so much.

Hydrocodone, or hydro/apap (or vicoprofen)? What dose? I've had customers complain that the doc's prescribed too strong a dose, or too weak a dose, so they took the "as needed" part as "whenever you want". It also seems some have forgotten that they can prescribe non-opiate pain killers like tramadol or soma.


Pretty sure you can get addicted to Tramadol, too.  Tried it once and it was like a trip to the magic kingdom of happiness.  It was so nice, I said to myself, "You can never touch that again!"
 
2014-04-08 10:50:53 AM  

MFK: ruta: MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area.

Because that ban on heroin is doing such a swell job of keeping heroin out of the area.

What's your point? That because some things beyond the control of the state, they should just throw up their hands and say "fark it" when it comes to the things that they can control?


Well they could try something that we actually know works. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/evaluating-drug-decriminal i zation-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html
 
2014-04-08 10:51:49 AM  

somedude210: MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.

your house is on fire and you're trying desperately to put it out, some asshole got the fire department's permission to toss gasoline on your house. Are you not going to kick him in the balls to prevent him from doing that and making your problem worse?


Ban gasoline! Fire extinguished! HOUSE SAVED.

*wipes hands on pants*
 
2014-04-08 10:51:56 AM  

YixilTesiphon: Heroin is already widely available in the region, so you want to ban something that's safer than heroin because it's not produced and distributed by the black market? It makes no sense.


sure it does (i'm not saying i agree with gov however).  those pills just end up on the black market after they've been fraudulently obtained through insurance scams, or stolen.  my health insurance is paying for those pills, not for mexican heroin.
 
2014-04-08 10:52:35 AM  

YixilTesiphon: No, he isn't. No intelligent person, which Deval Patrick is, could think that bans on drugs work. They don't. They accomplish nothing except kill more people due to bad quality and black-market violence. He is simply pretending to do something


There is some evidence that prescription opioids can lead to opioid addiction, and when the user is denied access to their prescription, they will seek out the black market stuff.

The real problem is prohibition.
 
2014-04-08 10:54:50 AM  

YixilTesiphon: No, he isn't. No intelligent person, which Deval Patrick is, could think that bans on drugs work. They don't. They accomplish nothing except kill more people due to bad quality and black-market violence. He is simply pretending to do something.


They're already getting heroin on the cheap, a new prescription drug is going to be a boatload more expensive on the black market then the same high you can get from heroin. That said, if he was just banning the drug and tossing users and abusers in prison, then I'll agree with you that it's a terrible course of action. As it is, MA is very much trying to help addicts kick the habit. We understand what is needed to stop the epidemic. What you're seeing is a massive influx of new addicts being created and the drug courts and rehabs being overwhelmed. I understand your hatred of the War on Drugs. I agree, it is stupid and needs to stop. That doesn't excuse the drug in question, which was approved by the FDA in very questionable circumstances, from adding fuel to the fire and the governor wanting to do something to stop a bad situation from getting worse.
 
2014-04-08 10:58:04 AM  

somedude210: MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.

your house is on fire and you're trying desperately to put it out, some asshole got the fire department's permission to toss gasoline on your house. Are you not going to kick him in the balls to prevent him from doing that and making your problem worse?


Also, both the asshole and the fire chief who gave him permission to toss gasoline are both clearly insane. They need adequately funded mental health care.
 
2014-04-08 10:58:45 AM  

wildcardjack: Valiente: 1) Make all illegal drugs legal.
2) Do a crime on said drugs, we harvest your organs untainted by said drugs, and turn the carcass into Soylent Drugs.
3) Nobody supports my initiatives!
4) FREEEDOM!

Are you in the running for 2016 yet? Or are you a consultant?


whynotboth.jpg
 
MFK
2014-04-08 11:00:10 AM  

YixilTesiphon: somedude210: so what is your solution?

Recognize that the War on Drugs is ineffective and morally wrong and end it.


YixilTesiphon: MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.

Prohibition doesn't work, so the governor is expanding it.

At best your argument is mendacious.


When it comes to the regulation of what pills can be sold on the market, it absolutely does work. This is why you don't see Quaaludes anymore. This is why you can't get crushable Oxys anymore. I'm right there with you that the war on drugs is misguided and going about it all wrong, but to just open the floodgates to something like heroin just because is insane.
 
2014-04-08 11:00:33 AM  

ruta: somedude210: MFK: Despite its availability, Heroin is already banned in the region. What the governor is doing is an attempt to keep "another heroin" out of the area. Frankly, i'm a little shocked at the number of people here who think this is a good idea.

your house is on fire and you're trying desperately to put it out, some asshole got the fire department's permission to toss gasoline on your house. Are you not going to kick him in the balls to prevent him from doing that and making your problem worse?

Ban gasoline! Fire extinguished! HOUSE SAVED.

*wipes hands on pants*


www.automizeit.com
 
2014-04-08 11:02:20 AM  

ruta: Ban gasoline! Fire extinguished! HOUSE SAVED.

*wipes hands on pants*


*sigh* Patrick is cutting them off at the pass, not banning all opiates from being sold. If he was doing a total ban of all opiates, I would be in full agreement with all the arguments against Patrick. At worse, he's going "hey, we're not entirely sure you got a fair examination by the FDA. We don't want to have you selling that  in our state until we are absolutely sure that the FDA approves it and it's safe for consumption by our citizens"
 
2014-04-08 11:02:59 AM  
Pangea:

http://news.yahoo.com/u-federal-judge-sentences-florida-pill-mill-do ct ors-230514610.html


And when the sort-of-legal pill mills in Floriduh were shut down, heroin addiction blossomed.
 
2014-04-08 11:03:49 AM  
MFK:

When it comes to the regulation of what pills can be sold on the market, it absolutely does work. This is why you don't see Quaaludes anymore. This is why you can't get crushable Oxys anymore. I'm right there with you that the war on drugs is misguided and going about it all wrong, but to just open the floodgates to something like heroin just because is insane.

You can't get quaaludes because we've invented better drugs that do the same thing so they don't make them anymore.

Have you noticed that you can now get valium or alprazolam very easily?

Also we know what happens when you decriminalise everything - it works. We know what happens with prohibition. It doesn't work.

What is it about these particular substances that make people want to ignore the results of stuff we've tried.
 
MFK
2014-04-08 11:07:42 AM  

namegoeshere: Pangea:

http://news.yahoo.com/u-federal-judge-sentences-florida-pill-mill-do ct ors-230514610.html


And when the sort-of-legal pill mills in Floriduh were shut down, heroin addiction blossomed.


exactly. because heroin is cheaper, more potent, and extremely similar to the pills. By the time you are addicted to opiates, you do not have the same control of your faculties as you once did. So when a user might have been appalled at the thought of shooting up, "pills are totally safe - the doctor gives them out and he wouldn't if they weren't totally safe, right?" Take the pills away however and the user is still left with an opiod addiction. At that point, they'll do anything as long as it makes them "not sick".
 
MFK
2014-04-08 11:08:43 AM  

Tigger: MFK:

When it comes to the regulation of what pills can be sold on the market, it absolutely does work. This is why you don't see Quaaludes anymore. This is why you can't get crushable Oxys anymore. I'm right there with you that the war on drugs is misguided and going about it all wrong, but to just open the floodgates to something like heroin just because is insane.

You can't get quaaludes because we've invented better drugs that do the same thing so they don't make them anymore.

Have you noticed that you can now get valium or alprazolam very easily?

Also we know what happens when you decriminalise everything - it works. We know what happens with prohibition. It doesn't work.

What is it about these particular substances that make people want to ignore the results of stuff we've tried.


are you suggesting that we should just say fark it and let the heroin dealers do whatever they want?
 
2014-04-08 11:09:03 AM  

somedude210: They're already getting heroin on the cheap, a new prescription drug is going to be a boatload more expensive on the black market then the same high you can get from heroin.


i know too many people who have got caught up in this shiat.  every single one of them started with prescription pills, most were too proud to actually use heroin. increasing the availability of prescription opiates, especially super-strong ones just seems like the wrong thing to do when we are currently faced with the worst heroin problem we've ever faced.  i don't know what the right thing to do is, but i think the gov is more just saying "are you farking serious with this shiat right now?" than anything else.
 
2014-04-08 11:14:28 AM  

MFK: Tigger: MFK:

When it comes to the regulation of what pills can be sold on the market, it absolutely does work. This is why you don't see Quaaludes anymore. This is why you can't get crushable Oxys anymore. I'm right there with you that the war on drugs is misguided and going about it all wrong, but to just open the floodgates to something like heroin just because is insane.

You can't get quaaludes because we've invented better drugs that do the same thing so they don't make them anymore.

Have you noticed that you can now get valium or alprazolam very easily?

Also we know what happens when you decriminalise everything - it works. We know what happens with prohibition. It doesn't work.

What is it about these particular substances that make people want to ignore the results of stuff we've tried.

are you suggesting that we should just say fark it and let the heroin dealers do whatever they want?


No. I'm saying two things.

1) That the argument "you can't get quaaludes anymore so that demonstrates the effectiveness of a pill ban" is absolutely ridiculous. You can't get quaaludes because we hardly make any of them anymore. You CAN easily get the other drugs we invented to have the same effect like valium or alprazolam.

2) Decriminalise everything and provide treatment. We know this works. It's been tried. Prohibition doesn't work. We know because we've tried that too and it doesn't work.
 
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