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(Fox News)   "Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city"   (foxnews.com) divider line 277
    More: Sad, New York City, second-class citizen, John Walker, National Association of Evangelicals, largest school districts, New York Civil Liberties Union, compelling government interest  
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17917 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2014 at 7:17 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-07 10:21:12 PM
Here is a handy guide:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily-c-heath/how-to-determine-if- yo ur-religious-liberty-is-being-threatened-in-10-questions_b_1845413.htm l

The relevant question being:

7. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) My religious group is not allowed equal protection under the establishment clause.
B) My religious group is not allowed to use public funds, buildings and resources as we would like, for whatever purposes we might like.
 
2014-04-07 10:22:52 PM

DamnYankees: Ignoring the idiocy of TFA, this law does seem flatly unconstitutional.


Telling the churches that they don't get to use schools to preach their religion is unconstitutional?

/farking idiot
 
2014-04-07 10:25:07 PM

MrBentor: Sadly, I have to say is GOOD! Christians - (and other religious groups) have their comeuppance. For many hundreds of years, they have aggressively suppressed and hounded anyone who didn't conform to their "system" or fall in line with their beliefs. They now complain that they are being oppressed? What hypocrites, did not their own bible warn against that? I as a non-Cristian have been pressured and threatened by Christians for my beliefs. (Which by the way - require total acceptance of one's own wrong doings and doesn't allow for "divine forgiveness.") So many- Christians (believe) they can do what they want because there is no personal responsibility for their bad doings.. While - we - fully accept that if we do evil we must pay for such deeds... And therefore we are less likely to be evil... I am sad that I have come across many Christians that truly believe they can get away with anything because they "believe," without any sort of actual "payment." Yes, I am ranting...

/Strangely, I once rented a duplex to a "fundamentalist Christian family..." They initially thought I was better than sliced white bread, as I appeared to live a "good live" until they found out that I was a pagan. So - I, who deny the concept of "divine forgiveness," and believe in full payment for one's bad deeds... Was originally though as a "pious and penitent and pure" individual was suddenly an evil demon devil in their eyes... - At least they remained cordial and didn't break the lease.
//Yes, I have a negative issues with Christians due to a number of encounters with some of them.



While I've got no moral qualms about punishing specific people who may be guilty of persecution, collective punishment (or, at least collective schadenfreude) is way down on my list of moral-acceptability.  If a specific Christian is being hypocritical, then by all means, subject him/her to ridicule -- but if it's just a bunch of ordinary people who are meeting to discuss, then dial-back the hate.  Just as the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, neither are the vast majority of Christians militant assholes.

/ I don't really consider myself a believer
// but I was raised around it -- even did a year in Catholic school
 
2014-04-07 10:28:29 PM

AliceBToklasLives: Wouldn't renting space for worship (of any religion) be a good way for poor schools to raise a little dough?

/as others have pointed out, I don't see how this rule makes Christians in particular second-class citizens, since it bans religious worship, not just Christians


Ever tried "renting" anything to a religious organization? They expect donations. Actually paying money for a service is a foreign concept.
 
2014-04-07 10:34:26 PM
heahea.org
 
2014-04-07 10:41:16 PM

automaticman: Ever tried "renting" anything to a religious organization?


funnypicturesandstuff.com
 
2014-04-07 11:00:35 PM
Todd Starnes. Leaping from invented controversy to invented controversy. If he moves fast enough, people can't do enough research on his last controversy to prove him full of shiat, before they are dealing with the next one. I mean, is anyone asking him how the child who was yelled at for praying last week just happens to be his book publisher's daughter? Nope. On to NYC. By the time this is proven bullshiat, he will be onto how liberal union workers seem to have no qualms isolating the Asian food in its own aisle in the supermarket. By the time people point out that it's as dumb as his "Hispanic cheese" column. He'll be on about how an atheist blogger in Oregon once mocked Bristol Palin for being slutty.

He is the platonic ideal of the Gish Gallop.
 
2014-04-07 11:01:00 PM

jjorsett: Okay, have it your way, they're exercising viewpoint discrimination against ALL religion. Does that make it somehow less of an assholeish position?


Sure, wouldn't it? At least marginally.

Compare "There will be no religious services in this building" with "There will be no Muslim services in this building." You can argue both bans would be inappropriate, but at least one isn't being partisan.
 
2014-04-07 11:05:53 PM
I'd say Todd Starnes deserves brain cancer, but that would require him to have a brain first.
 
2014-04-07 11:06:39 PM

Clock Spider Jerusalem: Evangelical Christians don't get to make all the rules and tell everyone else what to do so now they're oppressed.

It's like that big fat kid who keeps hitting everyone and someone tells him he can't do it anymore and he starts crying.


The Evangelical movement = Cartman?
 
2014-04-07 11:14:43 PM
I'm surprised didn't embellish his reportage:

"When a school is converted to a church in this way, it sends a powerful message to students and the community at large that the government favors that particular church," executive director Donna Lieberman told the New York Times."  Lieberman returned to devouring her lunch of a stew composed of red potatoes, vegetables and body parts of Christian babies.
 
2014-04-07 11:17:13 PM
DNRTFA, in fact I barely read the headline, but is it because of the JEWS?
 
2014-04-07 11:17:23 PM

Dirty J1: Religion doesn't belong in school, for any reason, pure and simple. Keep that in designated religious buildings and your own homes.
Or rent a community center. Stay the hell out of schools.


You must also be really big into homeopathy if you're worried about the lingering effects of letting religious organizations hold meetings in otherwise vacant buildings on weekends.  The only effect this has on any students at the school at all is to put the rent collected toward their after school activities programs.

I knew of one church that met at a middle school on weekends for lack of a building.  Otherwise, I am mostly aware of schools holding their graduations or other ceremonies in local churches. Was true of every elementary school and middle school ceremony I ever attended.  For mine, a friend specifically wore a pentagram to tick them off, but no one from the church was there to care, they were just offering the building.  I'm not aware that these churches ever charged the schools.  But we should probably outlaw letting schools use churches, too, in order to keep the religious cooties from spreading.
 
2014-04-07 11:24:52 PM

Local School Rents Space to Scary Mooselimbs; Wingnuts Outraged

 
2014-04-07 11:25:16 PM

OnlyMeanWitchesAreUgly: If I were them (and I know, I am not) I would rename the church, "The Community Book Club", and continue to rent out the school as a club.

I can easily hear the answers to some common questions:

Q: Why are you preaching? You can't preach in a school.
A: We aren't preaching, we are discussing.

Q: You've been discussing the Bible for three months now...I think you're a church!
A: No, we're just slow readers.

XD


They don't really want people actually reading the bible. They might get ideas about how slavery is ok, women are inferior, teenagers who are disobedient must be stoned to death, raping and pillaging is fine, etc.

They just want to yap for a while and then pass around the "separate the fools from their money" basket.
 
2014-04-07 11:35:24 PM
Seems like whenever Christians aren't being allowed to trample the rights of others, they're whining about imagined slights against themselves.
 
2014-04-07 11:36:52 PM
i118.photobucket.com

/Sometimes img1.fark.net doesn't cut it
 
2014-04-07 11:45:51 PM

Dinki: [a57.foxnews.com image 660x230]

You know how you can tell Todd is a better American than you?


Because he's white, male, and heterosexual?
 
2014-04-07 11:48:51 PM

buckeyebrain: [ic.pics.livejournal.com image 350x355]


I am the son and heir of nothing in particular, so I'm really getting a kick out of your pie graph.
 
2014-04-07 11:49:16 PM
I want to see an atheist group try to rent the space now so we can legal precedent on wither or not it';s a religion.
 
2014-04-07 11:54:02 PM
STFU OR WE WILL BRING BACK THE LIONS, YOU SELFISH ASSHOLES.
 
2014-04-07 11:54:17 PM

genner: I want to see an atheist group try to rent the space now so we can legal precedent on wither or not it';s a religion.


What worship services do they have?
 
2014-04-07 11:59:31 PM

Truther: Yessss...

I feel the hate flowing strongly through you, Fark Religion Bigots...


The Derp is strong with this one.
 
2014-04-08 12:05:35 AM

Fart_Machine: genner: I want to see an atheist group try to rent the space now so we can legal precedent on wither or not it';s a religion.

What worship services do they have?


They get us confused with satanists for some reason constantly.
 
2014-04-08 12:10:47 AM

meat0918: Fart_Machine: genner: I want to see an atheist group try to rent the space now so we can legal precedent on wither or not it';s a religion.

What worship services do they have?

They get us confused with satanists for some reason constantly.


You guys forgot about this already.....


www.theblaze.com
 
2014-04-08 12:32:40 AM

Fart_Machine: genner: I want to see an atheist group try to rent the space now so we can legal precedent on wither or not it';s a religion.

What worship services do they have?


Football. Much better use of Sundays.
 
2014-04-08 12:49:37 AM

gaspode: BravadoGT: dj_bigbird: It seems that the ruling applies to all religious gatherings, not just Christians.

insert pacman "we're being oppressed" graphic here.

The legal term for the phenomenon is "disparate impact"

If they're renting space to other groups and denying churches the same access--pretty discriminatory.

Is there an amendment banning government from establishing chess or basket-weaving?


So if they rent it out to a chess club they're establishing chess?

The ruling doesn't prohibit them from letting churches use their facilities.  It simply says that they can if they want to.
 
2014-04-08 12:59:39 AM
If they are renting it, who cares?
 
2014-04-08 01:00:28 AM
i651.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-08 01:37:30 AM

genner: meat0918: Fart_Machine: genner: I want to see an atheist group try to rent the space now so we can legal precedent on wither or not it';s a religion.

What worship services do they have?

They get us confused with satanists for some reason constantly.

You guys forgot about this already.....


[www.theblaze.com image 620x371]


Hard to forget something I never heard about.

But then I'm on the west coast and would attend such a gathering as soon as I wanted to waste an hour on some arbitrary morning sitting in a building for no discernible reason other than to socialize.

I can do that in the evening at the bar, with friends, and we can talk about how bad ESO is, how the Ducks are doing (well they can, I'm not a sports guy),  how it's already warmer than we're used to for April, and dozens of other things without going all godless or godful on each other.
 
2014-04-08 02:01:49 AM

BSABSVR: Leaping from invented controversy to invented controversy


This is such an "invented controversy" that it's been going through the court system for years and finally appears to be finished with a 2-1 decision.

Okay.

You don't have to agree with him, but this has had quite a life for being merely "invented"
 
2014-04-08 02:05:49 AM

OnlyMeanWitchesAreUgly: If I were them (and I know, I am not) I would rename the church, "The Community Book Club", and continue to rent out the school as a club.

I can easily hear the answers to some common questions:

Q: Why are you preaching? You can't preach in a school.
A: We aren't preaching, we are discussing.

Q: You've been discussing the Bible for three months now...I think you're a church!
A: No, we're just slow readers.

XD


Well, it is a long book...

CSS: When I was in high school, I attended the first meeting of a Bible study group, just out of curiosity. (It was a public school, but a student-organized group, so I don't know where that might have fallen, legally. But whatever.) I foolishly thought we'd, you know, study the Bible.

The session consisted almost entirely of "witnessing" and a group prayer. I do not remember getting a reading assignment or anything. At that rate of "study," the Bible could stretch out for centuries.

I didn't go back.

/CSS
 
2014-04-08 02:23:28 AM
If there were only a place, perhaps one suggested in the Bible that one could worship the lord.
 
2014-04-08 02:35:33 AM

Stoker: If there were only a place, perhaps one suggested in the Bible that one could worship the lord.


Hell, if there were, I'd even say to make it exempt from property taxes just to get them out of public buildings.
 
2014-04-08 03:24:30 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-04-08 03:30:38 AM
Waiting ...waiting ...waiting ...
i560.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-08 03:57:04 AM

cwheelie: for the love of FSM, DON'T READ THE COMMENTS!
I swear my IQ dropped 8-10 points and it was never that high to begin with


Noooooo :(

Your comment made me look *tries to poke his own eyes out* it was like watching a car crash, I could not look away.

*hands in his MENSA membership, no longer worthy*
 
2014-04-08 05:23:21 AM

FormatSlacker: Dirty J1: Religion doesn't belong in school, for any reason, pure and simple. Keep that in designated religious buildings and your own homes.
Or rent a community center. Stay the hell out of schools.

You must also be really big into homeopathy if you're worried about the lingering effects of letting religious organizations hold meetings in otherwise vacant buildings on weekends.  The only effect this has on any students at the school at all is to put the rent collected toward their after school activities programs.

I knew of one church that met at a middle school on weekends for lack of a building.  Otherwise, I am mostly aware of schools holding their graduations or other ceremonies in local churches. Was true of every elementary school and middle school ceremony I ever attended.  For mine, a friend specifically wore a pentagram to tick them off, but no one from the church was there to care, they were just offering the building.  I'm not aware that these churches ever charged the schools.  But we should probably outlaw letting schools use churches, too, in order to keep the religious cooties from spreading.


It's astounding that someone can use the arguments the ACLU has used to justify this, e.g. favoring one religion over others. Renting out the facility is a great way to bring in more revenue and doesnt favor a particular group necessarily. This is not manufactured by Fox, it's one more step on the road to stupid in New York.
 
2014-04-08 05:31:02 AM

FormatSlacker: we should probably outlaw letting schools use churches, too, in order to keep the religious cooties from spreading.


Naa. What we *should* do is stop embedding legal protections for mass delusional idjits who get their collective knickers in a knot when challenged over their imaginary sky faeries...

It's like legislating the nieces right to throw a tantrum over not getting a unicorn for her birthday..
 
2014-04-08 05:31:55 AM

Animatronik: FormatSlacker: Dirty J1: Religion doesn't belong in school, for any reason, pure and simple. Keep that in designated religious buildings and your own homes.
Or rent a community center. Stay the hell out of schools.

You must also be really big into homeopathy if you're worried about the lingering effects of letting religious organizations hold meetings in otherwise vacant buildings on weekends.  The only effect this has on any students at the school at all is to put the rent collected toward their after school activities programs.

I knew of one church that met at a middle school on weekends for lack of a building.  Otherwise, I am mostly aware of schools holding their graduations or other ceremonies in local churches. Was true of every elementary school and middle school ceremony I ever attended.  For mine, a friend specifically wore a pentagram to tick them off, but no one from the church was there to care, they were just offering the building.  I'm not aware that these churches ever charged the schools.  But we should probably outlaw letting schools use churches, too, in order to keep the religious cooties from spreading.

It's astounding that someone can use the arguments the ACLU has used to justify this, e.g. favoring one religion over others. Renting out the facility is a great way to bring in more revenue and doesnt favor a particular group necessarily. This is not manufactured by Fox, it's one more step on the road to stupid in New York.


I got the impression it was about religious service.  If a religious group wants to rent the room for a birthday party or a social group meeting then they are more than welcome.  Its about using a public school room as a church that is the problem.

I once lived on a small island, we had no church, but we did have a school and a community club (which was really the local cyclone shelter.)  The club was used on Sundays for church services, not the school.  If these churches need a place to worship then rent out a local council building for the purpose and not the local school.
 
2014-04-08 05:49:20 AM

ilikeracecars: Let us break down the headline/quote:
Not just Christians. Not officially. They aren't being treated like second class citizens, and its the most populated city, not the largest.

So, head line should read:
have beome in the nation's city


wat
 
2014-04-08 06:15:36 AM
fusillade762:
Pretty sure this would apply to any religion who tried to use a public building. Of course he then goes on to claim it's an assault on ALL religious freedom. Pick one, you douche, you don't get to have it both ways.

No, he's right.  Only Christians are religious.

Just like how they play "Holiday Music" around the end of the year, when it's all Christmas music.  It's a passive-aggressive way to put everyone else down while pretending to be all-encompassing.
 
2014-04-08 06:15:57 AM
If the church in question is collecting from its flock tax free, it can rent an office or storefront.
 
2014-04-08 06:46:44 AM
As ye sow, so shall ye reap, futhermuckers. It's been a long time coming. Too long, actually. With your ludicrous worship of a white hipster supposedly born of middle-easterners with the unlikely names of Mary and Joseph, who gathered around his self friends with equally oddly anglo- sounding names like Mark, Peter, Thomas, Paul, Luke, Leia, and Hans. Really, your entire religion fairly screams "naivete" to anybody with a modicum of common sense. Your "god," as described in your own holy book, is the penultimate negligent parent, and your worship of it reeks of desperation. The fact that you have worked yourselves up to such fervor as to wage wars based upon your imaginary friend is all the proof rational adults need of the levels you are willing to stoop to.
 
2014-04-08 07:56:37 AM

buckeyebrain:


Nothing in particular, but atheist is already represented... Wait, what?
 
2014-04-08 08:13:49 AM
Seemed applicable for some odd reason today. from licd.com

www.leasticoulddo.com
 
2014-04-08 08:15:52 AM

indylaw: If the church in question is collecting from its flock tax free, it can rent an office or storefront.


You haven't seen what one tends to collect.  most congregation members are stingy bastards. After power bills etc, there's not much left for the pastor's income at some places.
 
2014-04-08 08:21:24 AM

cwheelie: for the love of FSM, DON'T READ THE COMMENTS!
I swear my IQ dropped 8-10 points and it was never that high to begin with


Good, now repeat after me:

Jesus loves me
   This I know,
For the Bible
   Tells me so.

Little ones
   To Him belong,
We are weak
   But He is strong!
 
2014-04-08 08:34:27 AM

Confabulat: Wow, America's most persecuted majority is crying again. What else is news. They really seem to have a weak-ass God.


Their god got nailed to a stick. A real god would have leveled Jerusalem.
 
2014-04-08 08:41:03 AM

reprobate1125: Dirty J1: Religion doesn't belong in school, for any reason, pure and simple. Keep that in designated religious buildings and your own homes.
Or rent a community center. Stay the hell out of schools.

I get that...and if they ban all religious groups, as a Christian, I don't take it personally.

I just think it's dumb to have buildings sit empty.  I think those buildings should be used 7 days a week.

I also think churches should be used 7 days a week. If you meet on Sunday, rent your building to an adventist group that meets on Saturday.


And on Fridays, rent to Muslims. I don't think the Scientologists have a special day, so they can have Monday.
 
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