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(Fox News)   "Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city"   (foxnews.com) divider line 276
    More: Sad, New York City, second-class citizen, John Walker, National Association of Evangelicals, largest school districts, New York Civil Liberties Union, compelling government interest  
•       •       •

17959 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2014 at 7:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



276 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-07 08:16:47 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: foxyshadis: Churches whine about rival churches far more than atheists ever do, if there's not a single dominant one. Eventually the powers that be get sick of it and declares that you all get nothing, good day sir.

In my youth, I witnessed a major rift form between two Presbyterian churches in West Virginia after one church learned the other was using wafers instead of cubed bread for their occasional communion services.


Ah, yes. The whole wheat thins vs. croutons schism.
 
2014-04-07 08:16:50 PM  

svanmeter: Christophobia or any such hatred is sad. Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.

Buddha


the Christians just got told they don't have any special privileges is all, then they freaked the hell out.  I think the correct attitude here is to show mild disappointment at the inability of a certain segment of the christian population to behave like adults and just chill the f*ck out already.
 
2014-04-07 08:18:03 PM  
"A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings. In essence, it means Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city."


www.clubdata.com.au
"If you ain't first, you're last"
 
2014-04-07 08:18:31 PM  

Beowoolfie: Okay, I don't believe you're really a lawyer anymore. Every rental agreement I've ever signed has come with a list of otherwise-legal things you can't do. For example, it's legal to rent a car; it's legal to drive to Mexico...but last time I rented a car there was a specific clause prohibiting driving their car into Mexico.


1) This is a public school, not a private company.

2) It's illegal to discriminate against religious people even if you are a private company.
 
2014-04-07 08:20:51 PM  
And this is said after they fought tooth and nail to stop Muslims from building a community center and the cops from doing random searches of black kids, really?
 
2014-04-07 08:22:04 PM  

DamnYankees: Calmamity: Because that is how the country was set up and how it runs. Don't like it? Move somewhere more politically aligned with your feelings, like Iran.

Why do you hate America?

This is false. As far as I'm aware (and its been a few months since I studied for the bar, but I'm pretty sure about this) if a school rents out its facilities to third parties, it has to permit religious institutions participate in that market.


Two other people who passed the bar disagree with you, just saying.

/Fux noose should be happy that Muslims and Atheists can't rent the school either.
 
2014-04-07 08:25:54 PM  

DamnYankees: Lsherm: DamnYankees: Ignoring the idiocy of TFA, this law does seem flatly unconstitutional.

Not if they refuse to rent to everybody.  At least that's my understanding.  There's also something about "compelling government interest" which one of the Fark lawyers can address, but that might not apply here.  I think that's the reasoning behind letting parochial schools use public buses.

I am a Fark lawyer. And I agree with you about renting to everybody. But the law seems to contemplate the opposite - that they will rent to everyone EXCEPT churches.


Not going to read the whole thread as it's probably just rife with BS..., but, if you read the article, the first sentence is:

A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings.

Anyone can rent the space, for secular uses, including a given religion/church(theoretically).  A dance, an easter egg hunt, a circus, a play, etc.

/ok, so I decided to at least search the thread to hit the relevant bits
//why firefox doesn't use f3 pisses me off, btw

DamnYankees: Ok but that's not what the law says here. The law in this case just flatly excludes religious organizations.


No.  It excludes religious services.  It's beginning to sound as if you're playing the persecution card, despite the evidence.

DamnYankees: I fail to see the distinction. If you rent a room, you can do whatever the fark you want in there as long as its not otherwise illegal.


That you fail to see a distinction is just that, your failing.

It's no different than a courthouse deciding to not allow a nativity scene(or any other religious displays), or cities that allow them from all religions.  The principle behind the choice is to demonstrate that there are no "favorites", to not even give the appearance by happenstance.

As for the other part of your post, No, almost all rentals have clauses of acceptable uses, whether it be as simple as "no smoking" or "no alcohol" to time limits on noise etc.  It's all at the owners discretion what they will allow.  In this case that's the city, so yeah, keeping up that separation of church and state thing can certainly be in their best interest if they choose to do so.  Most all renters, indeed, businesses at large, reserve the right to deny any given customer service for "no reason".  If they decide no, and give no explanation, you have no legal recourse.

In this case, they've simply decided that it's not worth any possible problems, not even perceived affiliations.
 
2014-04-07 08:26:27 PM  

Weaver95: svanmeter: Christophobia or any such hatred is sad. Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.

Buddha

the Christians just got told they don't have any special privileges is all, then they freaked the hell out.  I think the correct attitude here is to show mild disappointment at the inability of a certain segment of the christian population to behave like adults and just chill the f*ck out already.


I was referring to the Christophobic comments displayed on this page. You will not be punished for your anger. You will be punished by your anger.

Buddah
 
2014-04-07 08:27:07 PM  

fusillade762: By Todd Starnes

GOD DAMMIT. Can we get a farking "Starnes" tag already?

*deep breath*, OK, since I already made the click.

A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings. In essence, it means Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city.

Pretty sure this would apply to any religion who tried to use a public building. Of course he then goes on to claim it's an assault on ALL religious freedom. Pick one, you douche, you don't get to have it both ways.


You idiot. There is nothing illogical about his statements that you highlight.

**A city bans 4 legged pets.
**This makes dog owners 2nd class citizens.
**It is an assault on ALL 4 legged pet owners.

What's the problem with that logic?

Sure, this guy might be a complete tosser - I don't live in the USA, never heard of him. His article has an obvious pro-Christian agenda. But he is NOT BEING ILLOGICAL.

You attacked him on his logic and you are wrong. This is because you obviously have an anti-Christian agenda and therefore I find you also to be a tosser.
 
2014-04-07 08:28:36 PM  

jjorsett: fusillade762: By Todd Starnes

GOD DAMMIT. Can we get a farking "Starnes" tag already?

*deep breath*, OK, since I already made the click.

A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings. In essence, it means Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city.

Pretty sure this would apply to any religion who tried to use a public building. Of course he then goes on to claim it's an assault on ALL religious freedom. Pick one, you douche, you don't get to have it both ways.

Okay, have it your way, they're exercising viewpoint discrimination against ALL religion. Does that make it somehow less of an assholeish position?


Religion is a CHOICE, herp derp
 
2014-04-07 08:30:04 PM  
Submitter +6 for trolling.  (Low score for low degree of difficulty.)

This is likely to be overturned, unless there's some condition or something that the article didn't mention (which is actually extremely likely).  The Supreme Court has set recent precedents that religious organizations have the same access to public facilities as secular organization, and I think a notable decision was a case in New York state.

The thing that might differentiate this case is if holding actual services crosses the line to being an apparently government endorsement of a religion, but that seems a stretch to me.

Bottom line is, if religious organizations are not given the same right to rent public spaces that other organizations are, they are second-class organizations.  That's just as wrong as giving religions special privileges.
 
2014-04-07 08:35:00 PM  

fluffy2097: As a Muslim, If they allow church in a school on Sunday, We should allow the call to prayer every day.

Just schedule the school day around them and it won't inconvenience anyone. We will pray between periods.


They already do.  You're conflating issues.  Students are allowed to pray in school.
 
2014-04-07 08:36:28 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Weaver95: as long as the ban applies to all religious groups across the board, I don't see a problem with it.

It does.

NY law says schools can be used for community purposes, but that all of those purposes must be non-exclusive and open to the public. In its policies, NYC contain a specific prohibition for using them for any and all religious promotions and services,


1. Pursuant to New York Educ. Law § 414 (McKinney 2002), a school district or local school board may permit school facilities to be used during nonschool hours for a wide variety of purposes, including:
holding social, civic and recreational meetings and entertainments, and other uses pertaining to the welfare of the community; but such meetings, entertainment and uses shall be non-exclusive and shall be open to the general public.
N.Y. Educ. Law § 414(1)(c).

County School District No. 10 adopted this standard as part of its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). The district's SOP, however, adds a prohibition against the use of school property for "religious services or religious instruction," Bronx Household of Faith v. Board of Education (Bronx II), No. 01-Civ-8598


Bears repeating because people are blatantly ignoring it.  Implying religious services are non-exclusive, because they "welcome everyone" is like calling "I'm sorry that you're an asshole" an apology because it has the word "sorry".
 
2014-04-07 08:42:21 PM  
A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings. In essence, it means Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city.

/No, it means that schools receive federal and state money, and the government can't support one faith officially by funding it. It also means, that schools are in the habit of teaching FACTS, not fiction. If you wish to stuff your children's heads with fear of demons, eternal damnation and being poked by tridents while they flay your skin of because jesus loves you, then by all means, there is a place that will teach exactly that. It's called church. Keep your fairy tales out of my school, and i wont come to your church and teach evolution.
 
2014-04-07 08:45:31 PM  

DamnYankees: Beowoolfie: Okay, I don't believe you're really a lawyer anymore. Every rental agreement I've ever signed has come with a list of otherwise-legal things you can't do. For example, it's legal to rent a car; it's legal to drive to Mexico...but last time I rented a car there was a specific clause prohibiting driving their car into Mexico.

1) This is a public school, not a private company.

2) It's illegal to discriminate against religious people even if you are a private company.


You conveniently left off the quote I was responding to:

DamnYankees: If you rent a room, you can do whatever the fark you want in there as long as its not otherwise illegal.


An overly-broad and, in my experience, utterly incorrect statement. If you're really a lawyer, give me a citation for your state's rental contract laws that supports your claim. Well, or admit you phrased it poorly and quote me an hourly rate to perform the research I requested.

/For extra points, tell me which classic logical fallacy your response above belongs to.
 
2014-04-07 08:46:06 PM  
FTFA: "When a school is converted to a church in this way, it sends a powerful message to students and the community at large that the government favors that particular church,"

Book 'em, Danno.
 
2014-04-07 08:46:08 PM  

Confabulat: Just once, I'd think the people that have a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe could have something go their way.


/Ya, that seems to be working out well for the religious fundies in islam isn't it? They never die for their God for nothing. And he always saves them before they can be hurt...ive seen the videos. Must be all the snackbarring they do before a F15 drops a paveway on their heads.

/just saying. No disrespect to moderate fairy tale believers everywhere.
 
2014-04-07 08:55:55 PM  
I imagine this applies to all hate groups, not just Christians.
 
2014-04-07 08:55:59 PM  
While I am sure someone has already beat me to the punch, but no longer getting special treatment and instead receiving the same treatment does not make you second class. It makes you equal. If you choose to act without class after that, then it is your choice.
 
2014-04-07 08:56:37 PM  

DamnYankees: Calmamity: Because that is how the country was set up and how it runs. Don't like it? Move somewhere more politically aligned with your feelings, like Iran.

Why do you hate America?

This is false. As far as I'm aware (and its been a few months since I studied for the bar, but I'm pretty sure about this) if a school rents out its facilities to third parties, it has to permit religious institutions participate in that market.


You're assuming Todd Starnes has accurately represented the nature of this law; a dubious proposition at best.
 
2014-04-07 08:58:37 PM  
"When a school is converted to a church in this way, it sends a powerful message to students and the community at large that the government favors that particular church," executive director Donna Lieberman told The New York Times.


Wow. I wonder what religion Donna LIEBERMAN is? I wonder. Farking coont. Put her on a train.
 
2014-04-07 08:58:45 PM  

omeganuepsilon: Lenny_da_Hog: Weaver95: as long as the ban applies to all religious groups across the board, I don't see a problem with it.

It does.

NY law says schools can be used for community purposes, but that all of those purposes must be non-exclusive and open to the public. In its policies, NYC contain a specific prohibition for using them for any and all religious promotions and services,


1. Pursuant to New York Educ. Law § 414 (McKinney 2002), a school district or local school board may permit school facilities to be used during nonschool hours for a wide variety of purposes, including:
holding social, civic and recreational meetings and entertainments, and other uses pertaining to the welfare of the community; but such meetings, entertainment and uses shall be non-exclusive and shall be open to the general public.
N.Y. Educ. Law § 414(1)(c).

County School District No. 10 adopted this standard as part of its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). The district's SOP, however, adds a prohibition against the use of school property for "religious services or religious instruction," Bronx Household of Faith v. Board of Education (Bronx II), No. 01-Civ-8598

Bears repeating because people are blatantly ignoring it.  Implying religious services are non-exclusive, because they "welcome everyone" is like calling "I'm sorry that you're an asshole" an apology because it has the word "sorry".


Not all religious services are non-exclusive either.
 
2014-04-07 08:59:19 PM  

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: I imagine this applies to all hate groups, not just Christians.

+1
/thread
 
2014-04-07 09:00:07 PM  
"Do unto others" they were asking for it.
 
2014-04-07 09:01:35 PM  
The people that would raise hell about Fartbongo the secret muslin allowing schools to be rented out for islamic services have a problem with this.
 
2014-04-07 09:01:36 PM  

HectorSchwartz: "When a school is converted to a church in this way, it sends a powerful message to students and the community at large that the government favors that particular church," executive director Donna Lieberman told The New York Times.


Wow. I wonder what religion Donna LIEBERMAN is? I wonder. Farking coont. Put her on a train.


+1 to you, Mr. Schwartz.
 
2014-04-07 09:01:39 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-04-07 09:06:40 PM  
uberhumor.com
 
2014-04-07 09:06:51 PM  
So, wait, is there a "first" class of citizens that's allowed to misappropriate public resources for religious indoctrination purposes?

Because my suspicion is that this guy just can't count.
 
2014-04-07 09:10:07 PM  
FTFA, "Somebody should explain to Ms. Lieberman that there's a difference between freedom of religion and freedom from religion."

BZZZZT.  Wrong.
 
2014-04-07 09:14:42 PM  
1) I was forced to pray multiple times a day, every day in grade school. Strangely enough it was completely, 100% legal. Catholic school.
2) If these farktards want to pray in school, build your own schools!!!
3) OH WAIT, you could have religious services in religious buildings. Rent one of them. There are TONS of them.

/time to start taxing all religions. HAHAH HAHAHAH AHAHAHAH sigh
 
2014-04-07 09:17:09 PM  

namatad: 3) OH WAIT, you could have religious services in religious buildings. Rent one of them. There are TONS of them.


It doesn't even need to be owned by a religious group.

I have a friend who owns a dance studio. She rents it out on Sundays to a small start-up church.
 
2014-04-07 09:22:30 PM  
"When a school is converted to a church in this way, it sends a powerful message to students and the community at large that the government favors that particular church,"

That's funny, when my old high school started renting to a church for Sunday service and I learned they were having church on the gymnasium bleachers my first thought was, "What a sad church that can't even make it on their own" and "I farted there"

But hey, it sends a powerful message about government and stuff.
 
2014-04-07 09:23:11 PM  

buckeyebrain: [ic.pics.livejournal.com image 350x355]


Furthermore:
www.godvscaesar.org
 
2014-04-07 09:27:12 PM  
Todd Starnes op-ed.

1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2014-04-07 09:27:36 PM  
Yessss...

I feel the hate flowing strongly through you, Fark Religion Bigots...

Embrace the Dark Side...
 
hej
2014-04-07 09:39:37 PM  

Dinki: You know how you can tell Todd is a better American than you?


Because his face s infinitely more punchable?
 
2014-04-07 09:40:04 PM  

Rand's lacy underwear: buckeyebrain: [ic.pics.livejournal.com image 350x355]

Furthermore:
[www.godvscaesar.org image 850x695]


go go catholics !!!
and can we ban the SBC from having any say in society? PLEASE???
 
2014-04-07 09:51:04 PM  

HectorSchwartz: "When a school is converted to a church in this way, it sends a powerful message to students and the community at large that the government favors that particular church," executive director Donna Lieberman told The New York Times.


Wow. I wonder what religion Donna LIEBERMAN is? I wonder. Farking coont. Put her on a train.


That's edgy...
 
2014-04-07 09:56:57 PM  

Great_Milenko: Let me know when they're dragged out of their houses at 3:00 am and their entire neighborhood is burned down.  These people have no idea what persecution really is.


I like your idea and am willing to contribute some gasoline to the cause.
 
2014-04-07 10:00:16 PM  
Fox is trolling again.  The way Christians behave lately, 2nd class would improve our collective status.
 
2014-04-07 10:02:25 PM  

fluffy2097: As a Muslim, If they allow church in a school on Sunday, We should allow the call to prayer every day.

Just schedule the school day around them and it won't inconvenience anyone. We will pray between periods.

As a Rastafarian, I should be able to smoke weed on school grounds.

As a member of the NRA, I should be able to open carry on school grounds.


/gotta allow all of the religions if you allow one.


Don't be silly.  Being in the NRA isn't a religion.  It's a personal relationship with Charlton Heston.
 
2014-04-07 10:04:48 PM  
My first thought was that, if the school is indeed renting out its space to any organization, then why the hell not let the religious folks rent it as well?  After all, the Fox article does say that they were trying to rent the space....and a lot of  posters here assumed that that little bit of misinformation in the article was accurate.

However, the actual ruling (
http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/031b00c0-dcc8-4ac9- 8bb 9-6176fae4d163/2/doc/12-2730_complete_opn.pdf ) explicitly states:

Extended use, which requires a permit issued by the Board, is subsidized in that no rent is charged for use of the school facilities. Reg. I.Q. provides: "No permit shall be granted for the purpose of holding religious worship services, or otherwise using a school as a house of worship."

So, unless I'm missing something here, the religious organization wasn't trying to rent the facilities...they were trying to use them for free, except maybe for the cost of cleaning up the joint after its use.

In that case, I have to side with the ruling.  I don't want my taxes being used to subsidize churches.
 
2014-04-07 10:04:53 PM  

KenShabby: fluffy2097: As a Muslim, If they allow church in a school on Sunday, We should allow the call to prayer every day.

Just schedule the school day around them and it won't inconvenience anyone. We will pray between periods.

As a Rastafarian, I should be able to smoke weed on school grounds.

As a member of the NRA, I should be able to open carry on school grounds.


/gotta allow all of the religions if you allow one.

Don't be silly.  Being in the NRA isn't a religion.  It's a personal relationship with Charlton Heston.


Just a man and his chair.
 
2014-04-07 10:09:05 PM  
Sadly, I have to say is GOOD! Christians - (and other religious groups) have their comeuppance. For many hundreds of years, they have aggressively suppressed and hounded anyone who didn't conform to their "system" or fall in line with their beliefs. They now complain that they are being oppressed? What hypocrites, did not their own bible warn against that? I as a non-Cristian have been pressured and threatened by Christians for my beliefs. (Which by the way - require total acceptance of one's own wrong doings and doesn't allow for "divine forgiveness.") So many- Christians (believe) they can do what they want because there is no personal responsibility for their bad doings.. While - we - fully accept that if we do evil we must pay for such deeds... And therefore we are less likely to be evil... I am sad that I have come across many Christians that truly believe they can get away with anything because they "believe," without any sort of actual "payment." Yes, I am ranting...

/Strangely, I once rented a duplex to a "fundamentalist Christian family..." They initially thought I was better than sliced white bread, as I appeared to live a "good live" until they found out that I was a pagan. So - I, who deny the concept of "divine forgiveness," and believe in full payment for one's bad deeds... Was originally though as a "pious and penitent and pure" individual was suddenly an evil demon devil in their eyes... - At least they remained cordial and didn't break the lease.
//Yes, I have a negative issues with Christians due to a number of encounters with some of them.
 
2014-04-07 10:09:45 PM  
 Wait, is this the type of persecution where they are being treated differently than everyone else, or the kind where they are being treated the same as everyone else.
So hard to tell these days.
 
2014-04-07 10:12:07 PM  
If I were them (and I know, I am not) I would rename the church, "The Community Book Club", and continue to rent out the school as a club.

I can easily hear the answers to some common questions:

Q: Why are you preaching? You can't preach in a school.
A: We aren't preaching, we are discussing.

Q: You've been discussing the Bible for three months now...I think you're a church!
A: No, we're just slow readers.

XD
 
2014-04-07 10:12:39 PM  
wait! wait! let me get this straight. only having 2 brain cells left I tend to... So that means, that means,, If I'm a
Christian Vegan butcher, I HAVE to sell a nice pork loin to two gay Jewish men for their Easter Dinner. Am I right!
 
2014-04-07 10:17:15 PM  

EasilyDistracted: My first thought was that, if the school is indeed renting out its space to any organization, then why the hell not let the religious folks rent it as well?  After all, the Fox article does say that they were trying to rent the space....and a lot of  posters here assumed that that little bit of misinformation in the article was accurate.

However, the actual ruling (http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/031b00c0-dcc8-4ac9- 8bb 9-6176fae4d163/2/doc/12-2730_complete_opn.pdf ) explicitly states:

Extended use, which requires a permit issued by the Board, is subsidized in that no rent is charged for use of the school facilities. Reg. I.Q. provides: "No permit shall be granted for the purpose of holding religious worship services, or otherwise using a school as a house of worship."

So, unless I'm missing something here, the religious organization wasn't trying to rent the facilities...they were trying to use them for free, except maybe for the cost of cleaning up the joint after its use.

In that case, I have to side with the ruling.  I don't want my taxes being used to subsidize churches.


Read the whole thing again.  It seems they are denying extended use specifically to religious organizations.  Which almost makes sense, except the people who they ruled against paid taxes to support the school regardless of whether or not they had kids in the school, just like other organizations who got extended use permits.
 
2014-04-07 10:21:12 PM  
Here is a handy guide:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily-c-heath/how-to-determine-if- yo ur-religious-liberty-is-being-threatened-in-10-questions_b_1845413.htm l

The relevant question being:

7. My religious liberty is at risk because:
A) My religious group is not allowed equal protection under the establishment clause.
B) My religious group is not allowed to use public funds, buildings and resources as we would like, for whatever purposes we might like.
 
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