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(Fox News)   "Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city"   (foxnews.com) divider line 276
    More: Sad, New York City, second-class citizen, John Walker, National Association of Evangelicals, largest school districts, New York Civil Liberties Union, compelling government interest  
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17959 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2014 at 7:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



276 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-07 07:51:17 PM  

Deedeemarz: genner: Deedeemarz: BravadoGT: dj_bigbird: It seems that the ruling applies to all religious gatherings, not just Christians.

insert pacman "we're being oppressed" graphic here.

The legal term for the phenomenon is "disparate impact"

If they're renting space to other groups and denying churches the same access--pretty discriminatory.

What if they are only renting to churches and not covens, synagogues, mosques, etc? That is still disparate impact right so the rule should be upheld so no one has that advantage. In that case, the Court's ruling is just.

Except that's not what happened so it's not.

It actually doesn't say....


Even if it went down that way the answer would be to allow everyone equal access and not to ban religious groups..
 
2014-04-07 07:51:20 PM  

Dirty J1: Religion doesn't belong in school, for any reason, pure and simple. Keep that in designated religious buildings and your own homes.
Or rent a community center. Stay the hell out of schools.


In regards to understanding world history, culture, philosophy; and to some degree, politics, i would say you are wrong.


In regards to hard sciences/math, and the like, i would agree thatreligion has no place on understanding the concepts, unless as nothing more than a historical anecdote.
 
2014-04-07 07:51:21 PM  

Lsherm: DamnYankees: Calmamity: Because that is how the country was set up and how it runs. Don't like it? Move somewhere more politically aligned with your feelings, like Iran.

Why do you hate America?

This is false. As far as I'm aware (and its been a few months since I studied for the bar, but I'm pretty sure about this) if a school rents out its facilities to third parties, it has to permit religious institutions participate in that market.

Aha!  A Fark lawyer!  I sentence you to answer your own question!

/no, seriously, I thought as long as they didn't rent to ANY religious institution it was OK.  I'd never heard about churches falling under a third party clause.  Although I guess that makes sense in its own way.


If you make it available to secular but not religious grips, then you are discrimination again the religious.

This line of thought had been upheld by federal law and Supreme Court cases.
 
2014-04-07 07:51:22 PM  

fusillade762: A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings. In essence, it means Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city.


Is that it?

It's a fuzzy line, but I think holding church services in a building paid for by tax dollars might just be crossing that line.
 
2014-04-07 07:52:14 PM  
as long as the ban applies to all religious groups across the board, I don't see a problem with it.
 
2014-04-07 07:52:19 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: Lenny_da_Hog: Christians People who listen to Fox have become first-class suckers.

FTFY. At least in that way, Fox is fair and balance.


"Fair and Balanced". Geez, even mentioning Fox made me dumber.
 
2014-04-07 07:52:23 PM  
The Christian thing to do by way of reaction is, especially in New York City, to turn the other cheek but with a heaping helping of attitude: "You call THAT weak-ass shiat persecution? Here, hit me again. HIT ME AGAIN, YA HUMP."

Does anybody under 50 use "ya hump" any more? It's woefully underutilized.
 
2014-04-07 07:52:49 PM  

Crabs_Can_Polevault: Scrolling through the discussion here, there's one point that I don't think I saw covered, and it could be a telling one.

Didn't various evangelical groups howl and whine at the top of their lungs to support the rights of businesses not to cater to (or bake cakes for) (or rent halls to) whoever they saw fit, for whatever reason?


Why would that matter? Private businesses are held to different standards than public institutions.
 
2014-04-07 07:53:24 PM  
Are all these poor second class citizens also suing to finally be allowed to be taxed like everyone else?

Dishonest farking twatsicles....
 
2014-04-07 07:53:44 PM  
why don't they (the Christians) meet at the park or Terry's house?
 
2014-04-07 07:53:47 PM  
and this is why the idiots who claim the rapture is coming next year, find out when if you send me 19.99 usd get rich

fecking morons
 
2014-04-07 07:54:03 PM  

Gulper Eel: The Christian thing to do by way of reaction is, especially in New York City, to turn the other cheek but with a heaping helping of attitude: "You call THAT weak-ass shiat persecution? Here, hit me again. HIT ME AGAIN, YA HUMP."

Does anybody under 50 use "ya hump" any more? It's woefully underutilized.


rlv.zcache.com
 
2014-04-07 07:54:27 PM  

SquiggsIN: There's a reason Europe laughs at our politics like we are children.


This would be the Europe that fought Russia three times in the 20th Century because it couldn't get its collective shiat together and is gearing up for round 4?
 
2014-04-07 07:54:38 PM  

DamnYankees: Calmamity: Because that is how the country was set up and how it runs. Don't like it? Move somewhere more politically aligned with your feelings, like Iran.

Why do you hate America?

This is false. As far as I'm aware (and its been a few months since I studied for the bar, but I'm pretty sure about this) if a school rents out its facilities to third parties, it has to permit religious institutions participate in that market.


I'm not sure how it is in NY, but California makes the (bizarre and confusing) distinction between "limited" public forums and "designated" public forums. A "limited" forum is one that is only open for limited uses--schools, libraries, etc. A "designated" forum is one that is specified as a public forum and is only open at certain times. (I could have that backward) Limited forums are subject to time/place/manner restrictions, and designated forums are not (or vice versa).

Anyway, assuming I was right the first time, a "limited" forum can in fact be restricted as to usage if it conflicts with other content-neutral rulings, as here. A school can't have religious meetings if it presents the appearance of the school/government advancing or promoting religion. So even if the school rents its auditorium out for events, it cannot rent it out for religious usage if there is a perceived entanglement between church and state. But I never did get the distinction between limited and designated forums, so I could be wrong.

On the other hand, if the churches have all that money, and need the space, why not just find another room to rent? Why does it HAVE to be in a school?
 
2014-04-07 07:54:58 PM  

Bob Falfa: DamnYankees: Ignoring the idiocy of TFA, this law does seem flatly unconstitutional.

Something, something, church, something, state.

I know a guy who used to be an elementary school principal. He refused to rent the school gym to any religious organizations because if he did for one, he'd have to do it for all (Moonies, KKK, etc). He got death threats for doing this.


Even if a group's philosophies, worldviews, and ultimate aims are repellent, as long as they don't break the law how does one justify this kind of discrimination? How about if the NRA, NARAL, Greenpeace, ACLU, Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee, or  International Juggler's Association wanted to rent the buildings, should he be permitted to pick and choose which groups are worthy?
 
2014-04-07 07:55:25 PM  

Crabs_Can_Polevault: Scrolling through the discussion here, there's one point that I don't think I saw covered, and it could be a telling one.

Didn't various evangelical groups howl and whine at the top of their lungs to support the rights of businesses not to cater to (or bake cakes for) (or rent halls to) whoever they saw fit, for whatever reason?

Bearing that in mind, all I'm getting from this is a "sauce for the goose" vibe. Or a "hoist by your own petard" vibe.  And I think they may even be cross-pollinating, creating a "sauce for your own petard" vibe.


Fortunately, the judicial system is not supposed to work on "the a-holes had it coming" principle, because that can be, and certainly has been, a shifting target as public views and sentiments evolve.
 
2014-04-07 07:55:53 PM  
I'm a Fark Lawyer but I practice business law.  So I don't give a damn so long as my client (and I) get paid and my client is happy with the outcome.

In my personal life I'm a violent agnostic, member of the ACLU & NRA, and personal subscriber to the Wall of Separation newsletter penned by T. Jefferson.  <insert grumpycatgood.jpg>

/DNRTFA - Starnes might as well be the 'murican stinker.
 
2014-04-07 07:55:53 PM  
Sure, second-class.  Perhaps they forget that America is essentially the Christian version of a Sharia Law religious republic.  Perhaps they also forget that this life is supposed to be a test, and that the true life begins after death.  They're pretty shiatty Christians if they put emphasis on this world's comforts.
 
2014-04-07 07:55:55 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm not sure how it is in NY, but California makes the (bizarre and confusing) distinction between "limited" public forums and "designated" public forums. A "limited" forum is one that is only open for limited uses--schools, libraries, etc. A "designated" forum is one that is specified as a public forum and is only open at certain times. (I could have that backward) Limited forums are subject to time/place/manner restrictions, and designated forums are not (or vice versa).


I believe this is a federal distinction, not a CA distinction.
 
2014-04-07 07:56:21 PM  
Let us break down the headline/quote:
Not just Christians. Not officially. They aren't being treated like second class citizens, and its the most populated city, not the largest.

So, head line should read:
have beome in the nation's city
 
2014-04-07 07:56:40 PM  
Cry the fark more.
 
2014-04-07 07:56:42 PM  

VendorXeno: Are all these poor second class citizens also suing to finally be allowed to be taxed like everyone else?



Ohhh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!
When we say "equality", we don't mean "Equality" equality. We just mean an "Equality" that consists of you following the rules, and us doing what we want.
 
2014-04-07 07:57:47 PM  
Stop believing in bull shait.
Really.
That's enough,
 
2014-04-07 07:58:08 PM  

Weaver95: as long as the ban applies to all religious groups across the board, I don't see a problem with it.


It does.

NY law says schools can be used for community purposes, but that all of those purposes must be non-exclusive and open to the public. In its policies, NYC contain a specific prohibition for using them for any and all religious promotions and services,


1. Pursuant to New York Educ. Law § 414 (McKinney 2002), a school district or local school board may permit school facilities to be used during nonschool hours for a wide variety of purposes, including:
holding social, civic and recreational meetings and entertainments, and other uses pertaining to the welfare of the community; but such meetings, entertainment and uses shall be non-exclusive and shall be open to the general public.
N.Y. Educ. Law § 414(1)(c).

County School District No. 10 adopted this standard as part of its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). The district's SOP, however, adds a prohibition against the use of school property for "religious services or religious instruction," Bronx Household of Faith v. Board of Education (Bronx II), No. 01-Civ-8598
 
2014-04-07 07:58:17 PM  
You know, I spoke with Jesus and he told me that he'd be far happier if these churches used that rent money to help out the less-fortunate.
 
2014-04-07 07:58:27 PM  
img.fark.net
Has this been posted yet?
 
2014-04-07 07:58:44 PM  
Other than the Christian label being interchanged with "organized religion" I'm ok with them being upset at this.  It does strike me as stupid to decide not to rent a public building to a group based on religious views.

Now, if they decided to only ban renting to Christians (and still let Jews, Muslims, Pastafarians, etc.) rent the buildings, their outrage would be justified.

Except the last 2 paragraphs.  No matter the situation, fark those last 2 paragraphs.
 
2014-04-07 07:58:59 PM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm not sure how it is in NY, but California makes the (bizarre and confusing) distinction between "limited" public forums and "designated" public forums.


Then there's Penthouse Forum.

www.hotflick.net

They printed his letter.
 
2014-04-07 07:59:03 PM  
Throwin' 'em to the lions?

No.

Walk it off princess.
 
2014-04-07 08:00:34 PM  

This text is now purple: SquiggsIN: There's a reason Europe laughs at our politics like we are children.

This would be the Europe that fought Russia three times in the 20th Century because it couldn't get its collective shiat together and is gearing up for round 4?


Yeah, those Europeans can be pretty sophisticated. Farking Italy has had more governments in the last 20 years than I've had hot dinners. Those Greeks, dthey really know how to rev up an economy....
 
2014-04-07 08:00:38 PM  

dj_bigbird: It seems that the ruling applies to all religious gatherings, not just Christians.


But it's only oppression because Christians and such as.
 
2014-04-07 08:00:50 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Weaver95: as long as the ban applies to all religious groups across the board, I don't see a problem with it.

It does.

NY law says schools can be used for community purposes, but that all of those purposes must be non-exclusive and open to the public. In its policies, NYC contain a specific prohibition for using them for any and all religious promotions and services,


1. Pursuant to New York Educ. Law § 414 (McKinney 2002), a school district or local school board may permit school facilities to be used during nonschool hours for a wide variety of purposes, including:
holding social, civic and recreational meetings and entertainments, and other uses pertaining to the welfare of the community; but such meetings, entertainment and uses shall be non-exclusive and shall be open to the general public.
N.Y. Educ. Law § 414(1)(c).

County School District No. 10 adopted this standard as part of its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). The district's SOP, however, adds a prohibition against the use of school property for "religious services or religious instruction," Bronx Household of Faith v. Board of Education (Bronx II), No. 01-Civ-8598


Thank you for that.
 
2014-04-07 08:01:19 PM  

jjorsett: fusillade762: By Todd Starnes

GOD DAMMIT. Can we get a farking "Starnes" tag already?

*deep breath*, OK, since I already made the click.

A federal appeals panel has ruled that New York City has a right to ban churches from holding worship services in school buildings. In essence, it means Christians have officially become second-class citizens in the nation's largest city.

Pretty sure this would apply to any religion who tried to use a public building. Of course he then goes on to claim it's an assault on ALL religious freedom. Pick one, you douche, you don't get to have it both ways.

Okay, have it your way, they're exercising viewpoint discrimination against ALL religion. Does that make it somehow less of an assholeish position?


I guess we can add the First Amendment to the long list of things you don't appear to understand.
 
2014-04-07 08:01:57 PM  
It's the religion of hate, so it's okay to hate it.

also,

Dinki: [a57.foxnews.com image 660x230]

You know how you can tell Todd is a better American than you?

wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net

4.bp.blogspot.com

media.giphy.com
 
2014-04-07 08:05:04 PM  

Just for lulz, here's the New York Times article on the ruling. Fark: Bill de Blasio disagrees with the policy:

"I stand by my belief that a faith organization playing by the same rules as any community nonprofit deserves access," he said. "You know, they have to go through the same application process, wait their turn for space, pay the same rent. But I think they deserve access. They play a very, very important role in terms of providing social services and other important community services, and I think they deserve that right."


For the record, I personally find de Blasio's position here to be reasonable, up to a point. I also sympathize with the NYCLU's concerns about religious groups "dominating" access to school space after-hours, but there have to be ways to address those concerns short of a blanket ban.
 
2014-04-07 08:07:56 PM  
i1.cpcache.com
 
2014-04-07 08:08:34 PM  

Dinki: [a57.foxnews.com image 660x230]

You know how you can tell Todd is a better American than you?


Because he's dating Betty Bowers?
 
2014-04-07 08:08:47 PM  

Crabs_Can_Polevault: Scrolling through the discussion here, there's one point that I don't think I saw covered, and it could be a telling one.

Didn't various evangelical groups howl and whine at the top of their lungs to support the rights of businesses not to cater to (or bake cakes for) (or rent halls to) whoever they saw fit, for whatever reason?

Bearing that in mind, all I'm getting from this is a "sauce for the goose" vibe. Or a "hoist by your own petard" vibe.  And I think they may even be cross-pollinating, creating a "sauce for your own petard" vibe.


They did, but public school buildings are owned by the "public" - and that includes religious people who pay property taxes for them but don't send their kids to public schools.  So it's not quite the same thing.  You already knew this.  Schools are not private businesses.
 
2014-04-07 08:09:14 PM  
Christophobia or any such hatred is sad. Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.

Buddha
 
2014-04-07 08:09:23 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Weaver95: as long as the ban applies to all religious groups across the board, I don't see a problem with it.

It does.

NY law says schools can be used for community purposes, but that all of those purposes must be non-exclusive and open to the public. In its policies, NYC contain a specific prohibition for using them for any and all religious promotions and services,


1. Pursuant to New York Educ. Law § 414 (McKinney 2002), a school district or local school board may permit school facilities to be used during nonschool hours for a wide variety of purposes, including:
holding social, civic and recreational meetings and entertainments, and other uses pertaining to the welfare of the community; but such meetings, entertainment and uses shall be non-exclusive and shall be open to the general public.
N.Y. Educ. Law § 414(1)(c).

County School District No. 10 adopted this standard as part of its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). The district's SOP, however, adds a prohibition against the use of school property for "religious services or religious instruction," Bronx Household of Faith v. Board of Education (Bronx II), No. 01-Civ-8598


then the Christians are just being whiny.
 
2014-04-07 08:09:27 PM  
But Christians threatening anyone who builds an Islamic social center in New York is still OK right?
 
2014-04-07 08:09:42 PM  
Haven't read the thread, but BULLshiat. BULL farkING shiat. Go fark yourselves.
 
2014-04-07 08:10:35 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
24.media.tumblr.com
pictures.mastermarf.com

Dear Fox: I hope this gets my point across.

/submitted in triplicate.
 
2014-04-07 08:10:36 PM  

Mithiwithi: Just for lulz, here's the New York Times article on the ruling. Fark: Bill de Blasio disagrees with the policy:

"I stand by my belief that a faith organization playing by the same rules as any community nonprofit deserves access," he said. "You know, they have to go through the same application process, wait their turn for space, pay the same rent. But I think they deserve access. They play a very, very important role in terms of providing social services and other important community services, and I think they deserve that right."

For the record, I personally find de Blasio's position here to be reasonable, up to a point. I also sympathize with the NYCLU's concerns about religious groups "dominating" access to school space after-hours, but there have to be ways to address those concerns short of a blanket ban.


Reasonable, except for the assumption that a "faith organization" is going to be providing "important community services" like calling for political action against minorities or other religions, planning a military compound, or handing cyanide-laced Flavor-Aid to young children.

Just because it's a religion -- Christian or not -- doesn't mean it's something good for the community or provides any sort of social services or relief. There are thousands of different kinds of Christianity, and a lot of those are violent and destructive.
 
2014-04-07 08:10:41 PM  
Bah, forgot Fark bounces NYtimes links because they go paywall. Here's a tinyurl to it: http://tinyurl.com/ldlhwaa
 
2014-04-07 08:10:41 PM  

oryx: The ban is constitutional, but I don't understand the purpose of the law. Nobody is using the school on Sundays so why not rent out the space. An atheist must have heard about the churches being there and caught the vapors.


Churches whine about rival churches far more than atheists ever do, if there's not a single dominant one. Eventually the powers that be get sick of it and declares that you all get nothing, good day sir.

/This is why we can't have nice things.
 
2014-04-07 08:10:44 PM  

Danger Avoid Death: Gulper Eel: The Christian thing to do by way of reaction is, especially in New York City, to turn the other cheek but with a heaping helping of attitude: "You call THAT weak-ass shiat persecution? Here, hit me again. HIT ME AGAIN, YA HUMP."

Does anybody under 50 use "ya hump" any more? It's woefully underutilized.

[rlv.zcache.com image 324x324]


The last time I heard "hump" in a sentence someone called Wednesday Hump Day at work.  But I stabbed her to death with a plastic fork, so I haven't heard it since.
 
2014-04-07 08:11:57 PM  
As a Muslim, If they allow church in a school on Sunday, We should allow the call to prayer every day.

Just schedule the school day around them and it won't inconvenience anyone. We will pray between periods.

As a Rastafarian, I should be able to smoke weed on school grounds.

As a member of the NRA, I should be able to open carry on school grounds.


/gotta allow all of the religions if you allow one.
 
2014-04-07 08:14:56 PM  

DamnYankees: Esc7: Could it be the worship services part? That the church is allowed to rent for events but not worship services?

I fail to see the distinction. If you rent a room, you can do whatever the fark you want in there as long as its not otherwise illegal.


Okay, I don't believe you're really a lawyer anymore. Every rental agreement I've ever signed has come with a list of otherwise-legal things you can't do. For example, it's legal to rent a car; it's legal to drive to Mexico...but last time I rented a car there was a specific clause prohibiting driving their car into Mexico.
 
2014-04-07 08:15:14 PM  

foxyshadis: Churches whine about rival churches far more than atheists ever do, if there's not a single dominant one. Eventually the powers that be get sick of it and declares that you all get nothing, good day sir.


In my youth, I witnessed a major rift form between two Presbyterian churches in West Virginia after one church learned the other was using wafers instead of cubed bread for their occasional communion services.
 
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