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(The Register)   Linux developer doesn't care about your silly booting problems and is seeking people to amuse him at work instead   (theregister.co.uk) divider line 103
    More: Interesting, Linus Torvalds, linux, Linux developer, Linux kernels  
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3125 clicks; posted to Geek » on 07 Apr 2014 at 7:02 PM (19 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-07 07:15:29 PM
The kernel is his baby, you basically just flogged his baby with logs.
 
2014-04-07 07:20:50 PM

lordargent: The kernel is his baby, you basically just flogged his baby with logs.


Much like its creator, it apparently is never flawed and needs to be pampered and babied. Expose a weakness? Its YOUR fault!
 
2014-04-07 07:46:27 PM
This is the type of behavior and attitude of those who work on Linux that have help back the OS from becoming more mainstream. Android (which is based on the Linux kernel) and iOS have proven that people will use other operating systems besides Windows, yet Linux has never been able to make the leap into the mainstream regarding the desktop. I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.
 
2014-04-07 07:48:01 PM
I work with a person who has the same attitude as Torvalds, but who hasn't written a major operating system installed on millions of computers around the world.
 
2014-04-07 07:57:31 PM
I'm looking forward to the libertarian hippie comments of Slashdot when this story breaks there.  It'll be big there right, even bigger then this morning's "Microsoft is the devil incarnate because they want to drop XP support after almost 15 years" article.

/year of the linux desktop!
//good for servers, terrible UI, all of them
 
2014-04-07 08:00:41 PM

skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.


Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..
 
2014-04-07 08:05:17 PM
I used to work on SGI workstations in graduate school, through most of the 1990s. I recall the days when we got fancy new machines with 64Mb of ram and 2Gb drives. I did some real scientific computing back then.

Now, I need computers to get basic stuff done. I had an OpenSUSE laptop and got tired of being a sysadmin. I no longer code, and for day-to-day needs I started booting up the Windows partition.

I've given up, and I used to be a low-level guru, the first guy co-workers ask about stuff, the guy who RTFM and had something of a clue.

I don't have time. Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.
 
2014-04-07 08:05:31 PM
I don't think that at the point eh GUI of Linux is the main problem. The lack of familiar and popular third party software is. The average user don't know what open source means much less give a flaying fark what it is. You can tell them about Open Office or Libre Office all day. They want MS Office. They want things like iTunes. They don't want to root around for some engineering students free time project program that gets them kinda close to the software they had and liked on Mac or Windows.

Steam on Linux is a big plus. But it's going to take more than that. I don't know if any Linux distro team will ever be able to be friendly enough with Apple or Microsoft to get them to make versions of their most popular stuff for Linux. But until then, every time someone says "Why isn't _____ available on this?" They'll switch back to the main 2 OSs.
 
2014-04-07 08:07:44 PM
This is why I use Windows. It always works.
 
2014-04-07 08:21:51 PM

taurusowner: I don't think that at the point eh GUI of Linux is the main problem. The lack of familiar and popular third party software is. The average user don't know what open source means much less give a flaying fark what it is. You can tell them about Open Office or Libre Office all day. They want MS Office. They want things like iTunes. They don't want to root around for some engineering students free time project program that gets them kinda close to the software they had and liked on Mac or Windows.

Steam on Linux is a big plus. But it's going to take more than that. I don't know if any Linux distro team will ever be able to be friendly enough with Apple or Microsoft to get them to make versions of their most popular stuff for Linux. But until then, every time someone says "Why isn't _____ available on this?" They'll switch back to the main 2 OSs.


The biggest obstacle (IMO) is proprietary drivers.  By default all Linux builds install the open source dinky video drivers. We all know they suck for anything but single monitor basic computing.   Joe average user isn't going to know how to install the proprietary drivers fro Nvidia or AMD.  Depending on the distro you either have to open up the settings in the software manager, a driver manager app, or manually through terminal.  A lot of the newer Debian based builds require you to boot to recovery mode to install them.

I have no issues and it's a cake walk for me.. But to Joe Average PC user.. They aren't going to be able to install Ubuntu and be gaming right away with the crappy basic  Nouveau drivers..Proprietary drivers from Nvidia are a must regardless if they aren't "open source".
 
2014-04-07 08:33:42 PM
IIRC, when I installed ubuntu (10.04 from circa 2010) it told me (well jockey did) that there were proprietary drivers available.

// do they not include jockey with newer releases? Or did they turn off additional software sources by default?
 
2014-04-07 08:48:51 PM

lordargent: IIRC, when I installed ubuntu (10.04 from circa 2010) it told me (well jockey did) that there were proprietary drivers available.

// do they not include jockey with newer releases? Or did they turn off additional software sources by default?


Not like that anymore.. You have to go to the Software And Updates app, then the "Addtional Drivers" tab to activate a proprietary driver.

i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-07 08:53:45 PM

BumpInTheNight: I'm looking forward to the libertarian hippie comments of Slashdot when this story breaks there.  It'll be big there right, even bigger then this morning's "Microsoft is the devil incarnate because they want to drop XP support after almost 15 years" article.

/year of the linux desktop!
//good for servers, terrible UI, all of them


Don't worry, Honey. I won't let the hippies make you use Linux.
i18.photobucket.com
 
2014-04-07 08:57:59 PM

Prophet of Loss: lordargent: The kernel is his baby, you basically just flogged his baby with logs.

Much like its creator, it apparently is never flawed and needs to be pampered and babied. Expose a weakness? Its YOUR fault!


This.
 
2014-04-07 08:58:19 PM

styckx: lordargent: IIRC, when I installed ubuntu (10.04 from circa 2010) it told me (well jockey did) that there were proprietary drivers available.

// do they not include jockey with newer releases? Or did they turn off additional software sources by default?

Not like that anymore.. You have to go to the Software And Updates app, then the "Addtional Drivers" tab to activate a proprietary driver.

[i.imgur.com image 761x463]


Yup - even on Mint, it's opt-in now. Not a big deal to me - it's a reflexive action whenever I install - but if somebody doesn't know about it..................
 
2014-04-07 09:01:17 PM

BumpInTheNight: I'm looking forward to the libertarian hippie comments of Slashdot when this story breaks there.  It'll be big there right, even bigger then this morning's "Microsoft is the devil incarnate because they want to drop XP support after almost 15 years" article.

/year of the linux desktop!
//good for servers, terrible UI, all of them


Ah Slashdot, it's amazing I have good karma there.

The place turned into some Linux fan club years ago, rational discussion of flaws is no longer an option.
 
2014-04-07 09:06:57 PM

styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..


Ubuntu's as close as they're going to get. 

Linux's problem (if you can call it that) is that it's used mainly by nerds who have CS/IT/ECE degrees (like me) and who have little sympathy for the common rube. Anyone who's had a problem with learning Linux and made the unfortunate decision to ask about it on a Linux forum knows what I'm talking about. RTM doesn't mean "Released To Market" in Linux, it means "Read The Manual", and God help you if you haven't done that before asking a question.The attitude has gotten better in the last few years (along with the programs on Linux, meaning fewer people are asking questions), but it still remains.

I run Ubuntu on my server boxes and on the laptop that I use for C/C++/Arduino development. It's a fine OS, but ultimately, no more or less bug-free in my experience than Windows. More importantly, though, the time for the "year of the Linux desktop" has passed. Desktops and laptops are a shrinking part of the market. Microsoft realized this and put a different UI on Windows, and while Canonical has done the same, they're still stuck in the "we're going to break the world of Microsoft's tyranny on the desktop" mindset.
 
2014-04-07 09:08:34 PM

styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..


That menu bar makes me so angry. I shake my fist at it.
 
2014-04-07 09:14:18 PM

Marine1: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

Ubuntu's as close as they're going to get. 

Linux's problem (if you can call it that) is that it's used mainly by nerds who have CS/IT/ECE degrees (like me) and who have little sympathy for the common rube. Anyone who's had a problem with learning Linux and made the unfortunate decision to ask about it on a Linux forum knows what I'm talking about. RTM doesn't mean "Released To Market" in Linux, it means "Read The Manual", and God help you if you haven't done that before asking a question.The attitude has gotten better in the last few years (along with the programs on Linux, meaning fewer people are asking questions), but it still remains.

I run Ubuntu on my server boxes and on the laptop that I use for C/C++/Arduino development. It's a fine OS, but ultimately, no more or less bug-free in my experience than Windows. More importantly, though, the time for the "year of the Linux desktop" has passed. Desktops and laptops are a shrinking part of the market. Microsoft realized this and put a different UI on Windows, and while Canonical has done the same, they're still stuck in the "we're going to break the world of Microsoft's tyranny on the desktop" mindset.


This, basically. I use Linux on the desktop for some things, Windows for others. But for most people there's no advantage, and for gamers, Linux is a PITA. I don't think most of the people in the Linux world want it to get popular.
 
2014-04-07 09:15:28 PM

Clock Spider Jerusalem: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

That menu bar makes me so angry. I shake my fist at it.


Tried Mint?
 
2014-04-07 09:19:29 PM
these alpha programmer types are kinda dicks. no wonder women don't want to work in the industry.
 
2014-04-07 09:21:39 PM

styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..


Bullshiat.  The only thing that makes Unity palatable is to replace it with something else.  Anything else.  Hell, I'd rather use Windows XP than a Linux system running Unity.  And I'm a professional Linux system administrator.
 
2014-04-07 09:21:49 PM

Marine1: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

Ubuntu's as close as they're going to get. 

Linux's problem (if you can call it that) is that it's used mainly by nerds who have CS/IT/ECE degrees (like me) and who have little sympathy for the common rube. Anyone who's had a problem with learning Linux and made the unfortunate decision to ask about it on a Linux forum knows what I'm talking about. RTM doesn't mean "Released To Market" in Linux, it means "Read The Manual", and God help you if you haven't done that before asking a question.The attitude has gotten better in the last few years (along with the programs on Linux, meaning fewer people are asking questions), but it still remains.

I run Ubuntu on my server boxes and on the laptop that I use for C/C++/Arduino development. It's a fine OS, but ultimately, no more or less bug-free in my experience than Windows. More importantly, though, the time for the "year of the Linux desktop" has passed. Desktops and laptops are a shrinking part of the market. Microsoft realized this and put a different UI on Windows, and while Canonical has done the same, they're still stuck in the "we're going to break the world of Microsoft's tyranny on the desktop" mindset.


Oh I couldn't agree more.. It has definitely got much better.. But the smug factor is still off the charts with your average die hard Linux user who camps out on forums.
 
2014-04-07 09:23:35 PM

jso2897: Clock Spider Jerusalem: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

That menu bar makes me so angry. I shake my fist at it.

Tried Mint?


I've been too lazy.
 
2014-04-07 09:29:40 PM

Clock Spider Jerusalem: jso2897: Clock Spider Jerusalem: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

That menu bar makes me so angry. I shake my fist at it.

Tried Mint?

I've been too lazy.


Then you'll love Mint - it's for lazy people -- that's why I'm so fond of it. Unity an opt-in. KDE version available. No muss, no fuss.
 
2014-04-07 09:38:17 PM
lake_huron: Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.

This comment coming to you from a Dell Inspiron, AMD Phenom triple-core running Linux Mint Cinnamon. I haven't had to run any particular maintenance other than normal updates. Runs like a charm.

/you're not trying hard enough
 
2014-04-07 09:39:26 PM

jso2897: Clock Spider Jerusalem: jso2897: Clock Spider Jerusalem: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

That menu bar makes me so angry. I shake my fist at it.

Tried Mint?

I've been too lazy.

Then you'll love Mint - it's for lazy people -- that's why I'm so fond of it. Unity an opt-in. KDE version available. No muss, no fuss.


I will go look that up then.
 
2014-04-07 09:39:43 PM

RoomFullOfMonkeys: I work with a person who has the same attitude as Torvalds, but who hasn't written a major operating system installed on millions of computers around the world.


I'm still LOLing at this. Sorry. God so sorry
 
2014-04-07 09:39:53 PM

OgreMagi: The only thing that makes Unity palatable is to replace it with something else. Anything else.


Counterpoint: Gnome 3.
 
2014-04-07 09:40:15 PM

Poot beer: lake_huron: Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.

This comment coming to you from a Dell Inspiron, AMD Phenom triple-core running Linux Mint Cinnamon. I haven't had to run any particular maintenance other than normal updates. Runs like a charm.

/you're not trying hard enough


I think that's his point. He doesn't want to try hard enough.
 
2014-04-07 09:47:48 PM
I've got my best friend and wife both using Manjaro.  Neither knows anything except basic basic computers, but once I took the hour to set everything up for them, it is completely maintenance free. 
As long as they can watch Netflix, they are happy.

I switched over to Arch a while ago, and would never go back to the Ubuntu/Mint/etc way of the snapshotted desktop.  I'm happily running Gnome 3.12 right now, and enjoying it.

Now, I just need to figure out why Microsoft hates sys admins.  I just had to install Win Server 2012.  They product keys are now an extremely tiny font, on a dark background, that is almost unreadable.  And now you have to put in the product key when you install, AND when you activate it.  It's like the evil boss who decided that metro on a server OS was a good idea felt that it wasn't quite evil enough, and decided to add just a little bit more insult.
 
2014-04-07 09:50:21 PM

Marine1: Poot beer: lake_huron: Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.

This comment coming to you from a Dell Inspiron, AMD Phenom triple-core running Linux Mint Cinnamon. I haven't had to run any particular maintenance other than normal updates. Runs like a charm.

/you're not trying hard enough

I think that's his point. He doesn't want to try hard enough.


Installing an OS is always going to be a tinkerer's thing.  Go ahead and install Windows 7 on a desktop.  At least Linux lets you know what hardware is inside if it doesn't recognize it.
 
2014-04-07 09:51:25 PM

jso2897: I don't think most of the people in the Linux world want it to get popular.


Agreed. For it to be popular it would have to be dumbed down so that a 19yo college girl and a 51yo man who just figured out how to use a flip phone can use it equally as well. Linux would have to lose all of its nerd cred to become popular. And knowing and using Linux is a big mark in the "I'm a real nerd, not a trendy nerd" column. People who have installed and used Linux on a real machine have to have some sort of actual computer knowledge. You have to at very least know what partitions and file systems are to even get it to run on your machine. Most trendy nerds don't know that stuff, much less your average "bought a PC at Best Buy and can't figure out how to remove McAffee" user. For Linux to be popular, it would have to be approachable to those people. And I think most current Linux users would hate what it would have to become for that to be successful.
 
2014-04-07 09:51:57 PM

fang06554: I've got my best friend and wife both using Manjaro.  Neither knows anything except basic basic computers, but once I took the hour to set everything up for them, it is completely maintenance free. 
As long as they can watch Netflix, they are happy.

I switched over to Arch a while ago, and would never go back to the Ubuntu/Mint/etc way of the snapshotted desktop.  I'm happily running Gnome 3.12 right now, and enjoying it.

Now, I just need to figure out why Microsoft hates sys admins.  I just had to install Win Server 2012.  They product keys are now an extremely tiny font, on a dark background, that is almost unreadable.  And now you have to put in the product key when you install, AND when you activate it.  It's like the evil boss who decided that metro on a server OS was a good idea felt that it wasn't quite evil enough, and decided to add just a little bit more insult.


elementaryOS has been the only Ubuntu offspring to play Netflix for me right after installing tubelight.
 
2014-04-07 09:52:40 PM

Marine1: Poot beer: lake_huron: Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.

This comment coming to you from a Dell Inspiron, AMD Phenom triple-core running Linux Mint Cinnamon. I haven't had to run any particular maintenance other than normal updates. Runs like a charm.

/you're not trying hard enough

I think that's his point. He doesn't want to try hard enough.


People shouldn't do things they don't want to do. And they shouldn't criticize or complain about things they don't have to do.
I wouldn't want to encourage people to use the Linux desktop - the most important reason I have for using it is that few other people do.
And I'll bet you think that's a stupid reason.
And I prefer that you do.
 
2014-04-07 09:53:46 PM
BumpInTheNight
/year of the linux desktop!


I'm still waiting for the year of the Windows desktop; hasn't stopped the masses from using it.

styckx
I have no issues and it's a cake walk for me.. But to Joe Average PC user.. They aren't going to be able to install Ubuntu and be gaming right away


Speaking of installing stuff under Linux..one problem I have encountered is that people have had problems wrapping their head around the concept of package managers or that you can use software without having to run some "install.exe" or "setup.exe" first; at least most people now know that you can install software without having an install disc.
I guess a really n00b-friendly Linux distro would have to rename its package manager to "app store" and slap a price tag (even if it's just $0.00) to every piece of software if it wants to keep people in their comfort zone.

Speaking of package managers..that's one of the things that keeps Windows from being usable on the desktop. ;-)
If you install Windows for that "average PC user" and then use Ninite to install most of their software with a couple of clicks instead of spending a couple of hours hunting down downloads and sitting there clicking "next" , they seem pretty convinced of the general idea.
 
2014-04-07 09:53:55 PM

skinink: I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.



Anybody with an interest in Linux can name off plenty of desktop alternatives the Linux community by and large works for the community and if it never hits it big with the Windows crowd who cares? It isn't like most of the coders will ever see a dime for their efforts.
 
2014-04-07 09:55:36 PM

Unprofessional conduct among people in the open source community? I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!

I work in a variety of languages, with a variety of technologies. I tend to avoid the Linux stack because attempting to get real support sometimes involves dealing with people whose kneejerk responses border on the infantile. I don't get that with other, more commercial stacks. Not to say that I don't enjoy working with open source in general - I'm just saying that, when dealing with software motivated by ideology instead of profit, well, you get ideologues instead of capitalists.
 
2014-04-07 09:55:45 PM

taurusowner: jso2897: I don't think most of the people in the Linux world want it to get popular.

Agreed. For it to be popular it would have to be dumbed down so that a 19yo college girl and a 51yo man who just figured out how to use a flip phone can use it equally as well. Linux would have to lose all of its nerd cred to become popular. And knowing and using Linux is a big mark in the "I'm a real nerd, not a trendy nerd" column. People who have installed and used Linux on a real machine have to have some sort of actual computer knowledge. You have to at very least know what partitions and file systems are to even get it to run on your machine. Most trendy nerds don't know that stuff, much less your average "bought a PC at Best Buy and can't figure out how to remove McAffee" user. For Linux to be popular, it would have to be approachable to those people. And I think most current Linux users would hate what it would have to become for that to be successful.


There's another issue - security. I don't kid myself for one instance that Linux is "bulletproof" - nothing is.
But it doesn't matter is something is bulletproof if nobody is shooting at it.
 
2014-04-07 09:57:57 PM
Linux: For when you refuse to give up on the "perfect and more secure" OS, but accept the fact that to do so you must give up on life.

Windows:You may or may not know what you are doing, but you are doing it.

Apple: You have no idea what you are doing*, but it's easy to pretend for strangers online(since the apps hold your hand one everything).

*unless you gave up on video editing with Windows, then you may know what you are doing half of the time, yet still a joke.
 
2014-04-07 10:01:46 PM

jso2897: Marine1: Poot beer: lake_huron: Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.

This comment coming to you from a Dell Inspiron, AMD Phenom triple-core running Linux Mint Cinnamon. I haven't had to run any particular maintenance other than normal updates. Runs like a charm.

/you're not trying hard enough

I think that's his point. He doesn't want to try hard enough.

People shouldn't do things they don't want to do. And they shouldn't criticize or complain about things they don't have to do.
I wouldn't want to encourage people to use the Linux desktop - the most important reason I have for using it is that few other people do.
And I'll bet you think that's a stupid reason.
And I prefer that you do.


Eh, I understand it. I don't want Ubuntu diluted any more than it already is, to be honest. It's about at the sweet spot. If they started to go the Mac path ("Let's make UNIX for people who don't understand computers"), I'd be sorely disappointed.
 
2014-04-07 10:05:00 PM

FormlessOne: Unprofessional conduct among people in the open source community? I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!I work in a variety of languages, with a variety of technologies. I tend to avoid the Linux stack because attempting to get real support sometimes involves dealing with people whose kneejerk responses border on the infantile. I don't get that with other, more commercial stacks. Not to say that I don't enjoy working with open source in general - I'm just saying that, when dealing with software motivated by ideology instead of profit, well, you get ideologues instead of capitalists.


It's kind of inherent - when people aren't getting paid, it's hard to tell them they can't be pissy little prima donnas - there has to be something in it for them.
 
2014-04-07 10:08:03 PM

jso2897: FormlessOne: Unprofessional conduct among people in the open source community? I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!I work in a variety of languages, with a variety of technologies. I tend to avoid the Linux stack because attempting to get real support sometimes involves dealing with people whose kneejerk responses border on the infantile. I don't get that with other, more commercial stacks. Not to say that I don't enjoy working with open source in general - I'm just saying that, when dealing with software motivated by ideology instead of profit, well, you get ideologues instead of capitalists.

It's kind of inherent - when people aren't getting paid, it's hard to tell them they can't be pissy little prima donnas - there has to be something in it for them.


Does "not being a part of a nerd fight that will play out on the Web for everyone to see" count as something in it for them?
 
2014-04-07 10:20:52 PM
Poot beer:

/you're not trying hard enough

This everything wrong with the 'nix community...

I do database development every goddamn day at work.  When I tinker at home it's Arduino hardware and programming.  But beyond patches and anti-virus, I don't and usually won't tinker with a damn os.  I started out on a farking Vic-20. My motherfarking UNO has more juice that what I started with but the Linux community still thinks that it's better to fight with it.  I have better things to do than fight with every install.  You know why Linux never won the desktop? Short of netbooting drrbl, show me any shop that in the enterprise would consider doing a couple dozen let alone a couple hundred unattended installs on none homogenous hardware with Linux.  Linux could do it and it could be every bit as easy, but between the infighting and superiority complex somehow fostered by the doing it the hard way, it will never happen.

And let's be clear here, I used to be a complete evangelist.  And I still have Linux running in my house where using old hardware is fine and uptime is more important than ease of use.  But there use is so limited it's not funny.  If I want to come home, play with the kids for a while, eat, get shiat done and then fart around or do some tech studying on a full up pc, I reach for my win 7 laptop.

And Linus is right, you fix your own damn bugs.  If it's worth coding, it's worth coding correctly.

/ yeah yeah, I know, old man yells at clouds
// onion on my belt
/// at this point in time watching the Linux community is like watching that guy you were friends with in high school that ruins his life for the woman who keeps tearing his heart out but "she loves me, she's just in a bad spot." Sympathy for him eventually becomes contempt at worst.  At best you just stop watching, listening.
 
2014-04-07 10:29:23 PM
Prophet of Loss:Much like its creator, it apparently is never flawed and needs to be pampered and babied. Expose a weakness? Its YOUR fault!

In this case, it was. Reading back through the discussion, systemd was trying to use kernel logging instead of syslog, a long-proven logging mechanism which has any number of mature implementations. Although called early in the boot process, systemd is a userspace program and needs to use a userspace logging mechanism instead of pommeling the kernel.

Linus, in the some twenty-five years since releasing the first kernel source tree, has not only led one of the most influential open source projects of all time, but has become an insufferable prick as well. Like Jobs and Gates, the insufferable pricks who came before him, he's usually right. The kmsg facility is not a syslog substitute.
 
hej
2014-04-07 10:30:18 PM

Marine1: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

Ubuntu's as close as they're going to get. 

Linux's problem (if you can call it that) is that it's used mainly by nerds who have CS/IT/ECE degrees (like me) and who have little sympathy for the common rube. Anyone who's had a problem with learning Linux and made the unfortunate decision to ask about it on a Linux forum knows what I'm talking about. RTM doesn't mean "Released To Market" in Linux, it means "Read The Manual", and God help you if you haven't done that before asking a question.The attitude has gotten better in the last few years (along with the programs on Linux, meaning fewer people are asking questions), but it still remains.

I run Ubuntu on my server boxes and on the laptop that I use for C/C++/Arduino development. It's a fine OS, but ultimately, no more or less bug-free in my experience than Windows. More importantly, though, the time for the "year of the Linux desktop" has passed. Desktops and laptops are a shrinking part of the market. Microsoft realized this and put a different UI on Windows, and while Canonical has done the same, they're still stuck in the "we're going to break the world of Microsoft's tyranny on the desktop" mindset.


To me the problem is beyond just the RTM mindset. The problem is software that stops at suitability for the purposes of the uber nerds and isn't built with any concern for accessibility to the unwashed masses. RTM shouldn't be mandatory for computer literate people. Never mind that TFM is without fail itself just as terse and unaccommodating as the software. I've been using computers and learning to program them since I was five years old, and I can't count the number of times I've tried and given up on getting a Linux machine setup for personal use.
 
2014-04-07 10:42:44 PM

Marine1: jso2897: Marine1: Poot beer: lake_huron: Make a Linux laptop that will require as little maintenance as a dumbass Windows box to run OpenOffice and I might buy if. If I have to fix crap manually all the time, screw it.

This comment coming to you from a Dell Inspiron, AMD Phenom triple-core running Linux Mint Cinnamon. I haven't had to run any particular maintenance other than normal updates. Runs like a charm.

/you're not trying hard enough

I think that's his point. He doesn't want to try hard enough.

People shouldn't do things they don't want to do. And they shouldn't criticize or complain about things they don't have to do.
I wouldn't want to encourage people to use the Linux desktop - the most important reason I have for using it is that few other people do.
And I'll bet you think that's a stupid reason.
And I prefer that you do.

Eh, I understand it. I don't want Ubuntu diluted any more than it already is, to be honest. It's about at the sweet spot. If they started to go the Mac path ("Let's make UNIX for people who don't understand computers"), I'd be sorely disappointed.


I'm happy the way things are.
 
2014-04-07 10:54:15 PM
It's my computer that has problems booting.

My silly starts right up.
 
2014-04-07 11:17:14 PM

jso2897: Clock Spider Jerusalem: styckx: skinink:  I wish the Linux community would get its act together and focus on making a viable desktop alternative.

Canonical is trying. They have weird priorities though..

On another note.. I tried out a daily build of 14.04 LTS.. One of the best Ubuntu builds I've seen in a long time. It's really solid and some of the new features make Unity more palatable. You can resize now to mini size.. They also built in an option to disable that gay global menu bar..

That menu bar makes me so angry. I shake my fist at it.

Tried Mint?


If you like Mint, I'd suggest installing Debian Testing and installing MATE or Cinnamon, depending on which Mint you prefer ... which basically is Gnome 2 or Gnome 3.

Have had a fine experience with Debian Testing for work and gaming. Play On Linux does wonders with WINE management, installing windows apps and tweaking.

For average joe, definitely not there. Unless the particular average joe is doing basic things like web browsing ... but then I'd just suggest they get a tablet.
 
2014-04-07 11:21:48 PM
From what is given in the article, it sounds like the problem is on the OS side. The whole point of the OS is to protect the system from programs, and protect programs from other programs. It sounds like Linus is basically admitting that anyone can crash Linux just by generating a lot of log messages. I know that systemd is a highly privileged program, but it's a program nonetheless.

Am I missing something?
 
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