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(The Daily Beast)   Kenneth Miller who wrote the biology textbook that is most often attacked by "creationists" has just won the Vatican's Laetare Medal, given to a Catholic "whose genius has ennobled the arts and sciences, ... and enriched the heritage of humanity"   (thedailybeast.com ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Kenneth Miller, Laetare Medal, biology textbooks, Catholics, Vatican, evolutionary biology, Jerry Coyne, Discovery Institute  
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3788 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Apr 2014 at 1:22 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-07 01:10:29 PM  
I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them
 
2014-04-07 01:23:35 PM  
Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.
 
2014-04-07 01:24:09 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


This.
 
2014-04-07 01:25:38 PM  

Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them


Francis is a roll with his trolling
 
2014-04-07 01:25:46 PM  
Take that, Protestant apostates!
 
2014-04-07 01:25:58 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


And the current official Catholic teaching is evolution.
 
2014-04-07 01:26:31 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


What the lover of me said Subby.
 
2014-04-07 01:26:40 PM  
Just this morning I was seeing something about another attack by the Catholic Church on gay rights... and thinking fark those guys...

Now they have to go and do something like this?!?

Cut it out Catholic Church -- you are supposed to be either all good or all evil. This good sometimes bad others thing is just not working for me.
 
2014-04-07 01:27:15 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


This.  We're some sort of power-hungry heathens, if I remember correctly.
 
2014-04-07 01:29:02 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.
 
2014-04-07 01:30:45 PM  

FriarReb98: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.  We're some sort of power-hungry heathens, if I remember correctly.


No, you're idolators, the joos and mooslums are heathens

Don't even get me started on Hindis and Budhists.
 
2014-04-07 01:30:55 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling


Yeah, I'm loving the guy.

/Jewish
 
2014-04-07 01:31:17 PM  
Catholics believe in evolution as the method through which God created the Universe. The difference is they believe there was a prime mover.

The United Methodist Church shares basically the same line.
 
2014-04-07 01:31:21 PM  
If I had pushed an argument with my teacher back in highschool, I would have gone to detention for insisting that Catholics were Christians.
 
2014-04-07 01:31:54 PM  

Zasteva: Just this morning I was seeing something about another attack by the Catholic Church on gay rights... and thinking fark those guys...

Now they have to go and do something like this?!?

Cut it out Catholic Church -- you are supposed to be either all good or all evil. This good sometimes bad others thing is just not working for me.


Franny did tell the bishops lay off the abortion,gays and hellfire sermons.
 
2014-04-07 01:32:29 PM  
Remind me to spit on the ground in front of the Discovery Institute next time I'm in downtown Seattle
 
2014-04-07 01:33:05 PM  
For several centuries the Catholic church has had no disagreement with basic science. They might have issue with how scientific knowledge is applied (e.g., birth control) but there is no conflict between Catholic doctrine and mainstream science.
 
2014-04-07 01:33:06 PM  
Nice.
 
2014-04-07 01:33:25 PM  
Catholics have never been encouraged to read the Bible.
 
2014-04-07 01:34:12 PM  
img.fark.net

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-07 01:34:29 PM  
What does that matter? Aren't Baptists the ones driving creationism?

/honestly don't know
 
2014-04-07 01:35:11 PM  

Zasteva: Just this morning I was seeing something about another attack by the Catholic Church on gay rights... and thinking fark those guys...

Now they have to go and do something like this?!?

Cut it out Catholic Church -- you are supposed to be either all good or all evil. This good sometimes bad others thing is just not working for me.


You can always try a different hokey religion's doctrine: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"
 
2014-04-07 01:35:17 PM  

dryknife: Catholics have never been encouraged to read the Bible.


Nobody else does.
 
2014-04-07 01:35:34 PM  

FizixJunkee: Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling

Yeah, I'm loving the guy.

/Jewish


Me too, the guy is a breath of fresh air from fellow ceremonial buffs

/Wiccan
 
2014-04-07 01:35:40 PM  

durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.


Yes and no. The Old Testament is taught as a mixture of legend and history that mostly serves as an appendix to the New Testament. The New Testament is taught as the factual history of Jesus' life and works, as filtered through four assholes.
 
2014-04-07 01:36:30 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling


A Hot Cross bun?
B^D
 
2014-04-07 01:36:32 PM  
This has nothing to do with Rome. It looks like Notre Dame University awards this particular award; unless, I'm reading the article wrong.
 
Oak
2014-04-07 01:37:03 PM  

Marine1: Catholics believe in evolution as the method through which God created the Universe. The difference is they believe there was a prime mover.

The United Methodist Church shares basically the same line.


Evolution has nothing to do with the "creation of the universe."  It has to do with changes in living creatures over generations.

/Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was a Jesuit priest
 
2014-04-07 01:37:09 PM  

Mentalpatient87: What does that matter? Aren't Baptists the ones driving creationism?

/honestly don't know


I've always wondered what creationism is like for other Christians in the world. I've only ever been exposed to American creationism (yeah, it's probably the various flavors of Baptists).
 
2014-04-07 01:37:25 PM  
 
2014-04-07 01:37:42 PM  
Yes well the everyone knows the Catholics are worshiping a false idol, the Pope, and not the one true God JESUS, the prosperity giver, as such they are all going to BURN IN HELL!
 
2014-04-07 01:38:40 PM  

Billy Liar: Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling

A Hot Cross bun?
B^D


I goofed on that. I got to learn to use preview. +3 for the timely food tie in.
 
2014-04-07 01:38:42 PM  

durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.


Exactly.  Not to mention the Church realized that they kinda farked that whole Galileo thing.  Ever since about the 1750s, the Catholic Church has been pretty science minded.

See the Jesuits.
 
2014-04-07 01:38:57 PM  
Glad it worked out better than Galileo.
 
2014-04-07 01:39:10 PM  
Ken Ham's Answers in Genesis says Miller "appears to be blind" in his support for evolution, and unable to "distinguish between science and religious indoctrination."

Say what?
 
2014-04-07 01:39:34 PM  

cgraves67: Zasteva: Just this morning I was seeing something about another attack by the Catholic Church on gay rights... and thinking fark those guys...

Now they have to go and do something like this?!?

Cut it out Catholic Church -- you are supposed to be either all good or all evil. This good sometimes bad others thing is just not working for me.

You can always try a different hokey religion's doctrine: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"


Isn't that an absolute?
 
2014-04-07 01:39:40 PM  

This text is now purple: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Yes and no. The Old Testament is taught as a mixture of legend and history that mostly serves as an appendix to the New Testament. The New Testament is taught as the factual history of Jesus' life and works, as filtered through four assholes.


The New Testement is Tex-Mex?
 
2014-04-07 01:39:57 PM  

This text is now purple: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Yes and no. The Old Testament is taught as a mixture of legend and history that mostly serves as an appendix to the New Testament. The New Testament is taught as the factual history of Jesus' life and works, as filtered through four assholes.


so, Ecclesiastical Centipede?
 
2014-04-07 01:40:29 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


Sadly, This.
 
2014-04-07 01:41:47 PM  

Crewmannumber6: FriarReb98: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.  We're some sort of power-hungry heathens, if I remember correctly.

No, you're idolators, the joos and mooslums are heathens

Don't even get me started on Hindis and Budhists.


Why would anyone trust someone who worships the god Hindi? Why yes I do get all my religious information from congressional subcommittees. How did you know?
 
2014-04-07 01:42:07 PM  

Wellon Dowd: For several centuries the Catholic church has had no disagreement with basic science. They might have issue with how scientific knowledge is applied (e.g., birth control) but there is no conflict between Catholic doctrine and mainstream science.


This is true for pretty much all Christians.

There's a very vocal idiot circle in the United States that you guys seem to think represents Christians in general, but it's not so.
 
2014-04-07 01:42:25 PM  

durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.


Actually I can;t say for sure since I was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that biblical literalism is doctrine in only a VERY small minority of identified Christian denominations, and even among THEM "Young Earth Creationism" is a minority opinion (as that 6,000 year old thing is from the Bishop of Ussher not the bible).  But by far, they get the most attention since they are so loud and vocal with their views  (Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously.......)
 
2014-04-07 01:43:57 PM  
I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.


Actually far more Christians are not fundamentalist or literalist than are. Non-literal reading of scripture is the norm in Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and pretty much all of the mid- and high- church protestant sects. Add that all up and you're looking at roughly 3/4ers of all the world's Christians.
 
2014-04-07 01:44:05 PM  

Mentalpatient87: What does that matter? Aren't Baptists the ones driving creationism?

/honestly don't know


And Baptists started out as radical individualists too... their views have envolved.
 
2014-04-07 01:44:33 PM  
FTA:

Many consider Miller a paradoxical figure who occupies the thinly populated no-man's land between science and religion, embracing both with enthusiasm and finding no conflict.

the only christians i know personally embrace both their beliefs and science and find no conflicts.  the loud minority are the idiots that think it's one or the other. in real life, there isn't a problem.
 
2014-04-07 01:45:08 PM  
I was raised Catholic, and I never heard of Young Earth Creationism from the Church. That crazy shiat comes from the nutcase fundie Christians, not Catholics, who are a bit nutty but in America anyway, usually quite sane.
 
2014-04-07 01:45:33 PM  

Slaves2Darkness: Yes well the everyone knows the Catholics are worshiping a false idol, the Pope, and not the one true God JESUS, the prosperity giver, as such they are all going to BURN IN HELL!


Our "Mary worship" makes us guilty of idolatry. The Pope is the antichrist.

In any case, a Jesuit priest told me many years ago when I said how much I loved science, "If you want to know God, you must know His creation, and if you want to know His creation, study science."
 
2014-04-07 01:45:39 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


If they don't count the single biggest denomination as part of their religion, then perhaps that's why they get that "Christianity is a persecuted minority" mentality.
 
2014-04-07 01:45:50 PM  

durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.


The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

- Cardinal Caesar Baronius (c. 1600, regarding Galileo Galilei)
 
2014-04-07 01:46:39 PM  

pute kisses like a man: FTA:

Many consider Miller a paradoxical figure who occupies the thinly populated no-man's land between science and religion, embracing both with enthusiasm and finding no conflict.

the only christians i know personally embrace both their beliefs and science and find no conflicts.  the loud minority are the idiots that think it's one or the other. in real life, there isn't a problem.


Yes there is. The idiots vote.

/yes, yes, Politics tab over there, I know
 
2014-04-07 01:47:51 PM  

brandent: Francis calls Christian Ideology a sickness.

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/12/pope-francis-fundamentalis t- christians-are-mentally-sick-pope-francis-calls-muslims-brothers-and-s isters-false-prophet-pt-2-video-video-2456566.html


The density of crazy-per-inch2over there is exceedingly high. It is dangerously close to collapsing into a singularity of batshiat insane.
 
2014-04-07 01:48:05 PM  

Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them


It's unofficial title is the Holy See What You Did There
 
2014-04-07 01:48:15 PM  

Magorn: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Actually I can;t say for sure since I was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that biblical literalism is doctrine in only a VERY small minority of identified Christian denominations, and even among THEM "Young Earth Creationism" is a minority opinion (as that 6,000 year old thing is from the Bishop of Ussher not the bible).  But by far, they get the most attention since they are so loud and vocal with their views  (Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously.......)


Assuming these people still exist, do they simply deny that we have photographs of what they Earth looks like from off-planet?  Or any of the other myriad of examples, the least of which modern observation can provide?  Like...  Without leaving the planet, you could see the shadow of the Earth on the moon during an eclipse.

Seriously, do these people still exist?
 
2014-04-07 01:48:54 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


That's ok, humanity doesn't count creationists as Christians either.
 
2014-04-07 01:49:46 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Wellon Dowd: For several centuries the Catholic church has had no disagreement with basic science. They might have issue with how scientific knowledge is applied (e.g., birth control) but there is no conflict between Catholic doctrine and mainstream science.

This is true for pretty much all Christians.

There's a very vocal idiot circle in the United States that you guys seem to think represents Christians in general, but it's not so.


Here is a picture of a very vocal idiot circle. Of course they don't 'represent' anything.

images.politico.com
 
2014-04-07 01:49:51 PM  
First, God created the world, then he created a whole bunch of heathens that didn't know about him like the ancient Chinese and Indians among many others, and when they died they went to hell because they didn't know that Jesus would come along in a few thousand years and die for their sins to save them from their heathen asses.  Conclusion: God is a dick.
 
2014-04-07 01:52:56 PM  

cgraves67: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

And the current official Catholic teaching is evolution.


Not quite.

The Catholic Church has no "teaching" with respect to evolution.  That is the realm of science, which the Church does not teach, but instead leaves to the scientists.  The only exception is that the soul must be made by God.

From Vatican II: "methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are. "

If tomorrow, the scientists of the world announced that, based on pure and proper scientific grounds, "evolution is false, we did not evolve from monkeys, a small bang of matter generated from fish poop led to humans", the Church would not object.
 
2014-04-07 01:54:39 PM  
Really a non-story.  Catholic high school 1964 to '68.  In Biology class, evolution was taught exclusively.  Things like Lamarckism,etc., were only mentioned as examples of disproved theories or simply non-scientific beliefs.  In those days, creationism was not really a big deal on the public stage.  The brother who taught the class, didn't bring God into the any of the discussions, in any of the areas of biology. A good Catholic education and 4 years of high school science, turned me into the atheist I am today.  Thanks Marist brothers!
 
2014-04-07 01:54:54 PM  

dryknife: Catholics have never been encouraged to read the Bible.


Not true.  Two readings from the old testament and one from the new every week in Mass.  Plus there are often extra classes even for adults where bible study and reading take place.

Plus the Catholics have the only true bible passed down from the apostle Paul, not that heathen bible written for a King.
 
2014-04-07 01:55:02 PM  

Zik-Zak: cgraves67: Zasteva: Just this morning I was seeing something about another attack by the Catholic Church on gay rights... and thinking fark those guys...

Now they have to go and do something like this?!?

Cut it out Catholic Church -- you are supposed to be either all good or all evil. This good sometimes bad others thing is just not working for me.

You can always try a different hokey religion's doctrine: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes"

Isn't that an absolute?


www.dmeb.net
 
2014-04-07 01:55:07 PM  

stuhayes2010: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.


And the Church has always been onboard with evolution, at least for the last 60 or 80 years.
 
2014-04-07 01:57:40 PM  

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Take that, Protestant apostates!


Episcopals aren't $^$ crazy either.  And we drink.  A lot.
 
2014-04-07 01:58:29 PM  
What I find interesting is that the "Earth is 6000 years old" thing was originally an honest attempt to determine the age of the Earth through historic sources. Of course this was before things like evolution and geology were fully understood and the result is pretty close to the beginning of recorded history, which is what you'd expect when working almost solely from historic texts. It was only after it became obvious that a literal interpretation of Genesis was impossible that people latched onto the 6000 years number as "proof" rather than interesting but idle speculation about the age of the universe.
 
2014-04-07 01:59:23 PM  

durbnpoisn: Magorn: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Actually I can;t say for sure since I was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that biblical literalism is doctrine in only a VERY small minority of identified Christian denominations, and even among THEM "Young Earth Creationism" is a minority opinion (as that 6,000 year old thing is from the Bishop of Ussher not the bible).  But by far, they get the most attention since they are so loud and vocal with their views  (Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously.......)

Assuming these people still exist, do they simply deny that we have photographs of what they Earth looks like from off-planet?  Or any of the other myriad of examples, the least of which modern observation can provide?  Like...  Without leaving the planet, you could see the shadow of the Earth on the moon during an eclipse.

Seriously, do these people still exist?


Yep still alive and kicking, and as for all those images from "space"   faked on the sound stage they hoaxed up the moon landing on (in fact flat earthers were the original "the Moon landing is a hoax"  folks) and NASA apparently has a "Night's Watch"-like division that keeps people from climbing the giant ice wall in Antarctica and falling off the edge of the world.  I blieve people have even offered to send the president of the Flat Earth Society into space personally aboard a Virgin Rocket bu claims it would all just be an elaborate and convincing hoax anyway so why bother?
 
2014-04-07 02:01:50 PM  
• evolution is a fact, not a theory. it is observable both in the lab and in nature.
• the "theory" is natural selection as a cause for evolution.
• also, a scientific theory isn't the same thing as an everyday i-think-my-neighbor-is-stealing-my-wifi type of theory.
 
2014-04-07 02:02:40 PM  

enry: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Take that, Protestant apostates!

Episcopals aren't $^$ crazy either.  And we drink.  A lot.


before i finally admitted my atheism, i was a happily lapsed episcopalian. wonderful people. all the fun, without the guilt!
 
2014-04-07 02:02:56 PM  

dryknife: Catholics have never been encouraged to read the Bible.


A Catholic who goes to mass daily will hear / read the entire bible every three years. Although they do put the 'begats' in brackets if they need a shorter mass.
 
2014-04-07 02:03:00 PM  

Confabulat: I was raised Catholic, and I never heard of Young Earth Creationism from the Church. That crazy shiat comes from the nutcase fundie Christians, not Catholics, who are a bit nutty but in America anyway, usually quite sane.


I seem to recall it being taught as an aside -- that it exists. They also came clean on the whole "we farked up about Galileo" thing.
 
2014-04-07 02:03:58 PM  

Magorn: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Actually I can;t say for sure since I was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that biblical literalism is doctrine in only a VERY small minority of identified Christian denominations, and even among THEM "Young Earth Creationism" is a minority opinion (as that 6,000 year old thing is from the Bishop of Ussher not the bible).  But by far, they get the most attention since they are so loud and vocal with their views  (Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously.......)



Rev 7:1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

OMG - it says the Earth is FLAT!!!

Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 No wait... it says it's a sphereish or a circle....

Which idiom am I supposed to mock?
 
2014-04-07 02:04:00 PM  

This text is now purple: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Yes and no. The Old Testament is taught as a mixture of legend and history that mostly serves as an appendix to the New Testament. The New Testament is taught as the factual history of Jesus' life and works, as filtered through four assholes.


Five. If Saul of Tarsus had been illiterate, the Church would be in a much better place.
 
2014-04-07 02:05:29 PM  

SordidEuphemism: If Saul of Tarsus had been illiterate, the Church would be in a much better place.


there's nothing like a convert...
 
2014-04-07 02:07:25 PM  

Magorn: Yep still alive and kicking, and as for all those images from "space" faked on the sound stage they hoaxed up the moon landing on (in fact flat earthers were the original "the Moon landing is a hoax" folks) and NASA apparently has a "Night's Watch"-like division that keeps people from climbing the giant ice wall in Antarctica and falling off the edge of the world. I blieve people have even offered to send the president of the Flat Earth Society into space personally aboard a Virgin Rocket bu claims it would all just be an elaborate and convincing hoax anyway so why bother?


Great googily moogily.
Even the shadow of the Earth on the moon?  How do you fake that?!  That's a direct observation.
What about simply going up in a plane?  You can see the curve of the Earth easily at 30,000 ft.

That is just really some incridible denial.  Like, it takes more effort to DENY the truth than to accept it.
 
2014-04-07 02:07:56 PM  

durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.


As a Catholic, the bigger problem I faced from Baptists and other sects was that Catholics believe in a "faith of deeds." With the other churches, it's enough to *say* you like poor people, but you don't actually have to *do* anything aside from pay lip service once a week. I'd given up on Catholicism over the last couple decades, mostly because I'm gay, and they don't seem to dig that coontil Francis recently came along and said civil unions would be fine, because while he thinks marriage is between a man and a woman, charging people different tax rates and denying visitation in hospitals was just mean-spirited). Anyways, digressing back to the point, Catholics tend to (overall) vote more liberal than people who call themselves "evangelical"... but Catholics also tend to have a shorter tolerance for people who profess their devotion to Christ, but perform no discernable community service at all.

I hated Catholic school... but it taught me good habits, and I still volunteered at the food bank most weeks... I stopped about a month ago because, when pressed, I acknowledged that I had gone to Catholic school, and they all got pushy about whether or not I wanted to know the "real" Jesus. If they found out I am gay, I'm sure their version of "real" Jesus would want them to beat the crap out of me.

The other differentiating factor between Catholicism and other Christian relgions is the emphasis on the beatitudes, not just the ten commandments.... the beatitudes are the part of the Sermon on the Mount actually said by Jesus... the instructions he was laying out. The Jerks for Jesus angry Christians don't care much for what Jesus actually said:

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Much of this runs very contrary to the Jerks for Jesus brands of Christianity that think the poor in spirit have no chance of getting into heaven, the meek are pussies, mercy is weakness, and peace is appeasement. Given their frequent demands to imprison the gays, tax them out of their homes (Windsor), or at the very least, deny hospital visitation, they aren't very good at the tenth either. The thing of it is, they try to plaster the Ten Commandments (Moses) everywhere... and they claim to be Christians, when they actively reject the things Christ purportedly said in the bible. Catholics aren't perfect by any means... but these people who use the bible as a cudgel, to divide people, and to incite hate... all without ever having actually read it... they're the worst kinds of hypocrites.
 
2014-04-07 02:08:11 PM  

FlashHarry: enry: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Take that, Protestant apostates!

Episcopals aren't $^$ crazy either.  And we drink.  A lot.

before i finally admitted my atheism, i was a happily lapsed episcopalian. wonderful people. all the fun, without the guilt!


I was raised Catholic and rarely go to church (save for a wedding).  A recent ex-g/f of mine used to drag me to an Episcopal service every few weeks.  I always referred to it as "Catholic Light" since it provided the same basic structure and service without the Mary worship.
 
2014-04-07 02:10:24 PM  

cgraves67: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

If they don't count the single biggest denomination as part of their religion, then perhaps that's why they get that "Christianity is a persecuted minority" mentality.


Yes, actually... that is really the problem. I have Catholic friends, I have pentecostal friends, and I have friends who claim no denomination or refuse to go to church at all... and I personally respect all of them.

Sadly many in each camp distrust and dislike each other. Usually for reasons I cannot fathom.
 
2014-04-07 02:12:56 PM  

IndyMBA: FlashHarry: enry: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Take that, Protestant apostates!

Episcopals aren't $^$ crazy either.  And we drink.  A lot.

before i finally admitted my atheism, i was a happily lapsed episcopalian. wonderful people. all the fun, without the guilt!

I was raised Catholic and rarely go to church (save for a wedding).  A recent ex-g/f of mine used to drag me to an Episcopal service every few weeks.  I always referred to it as "Catholic Light" since it provided the same basic structure and service without the Mary worship.


Yep.  Raised Catholic (lapsed for about 10 years), my wife was Lutheran.  When our daughter was born I was half dragged there and found out that a good portion of the congregation were also raised Catholic and converted at some point.  It took me a few years, but I made the leap and haven't looked back.  Also friendly to female priests, gay priests, and no real sex abuse scandal.
 
2014-04-07 02:13:29 PM  

IndyMBA: I always referred to it as "Catholic Light" since it provided the same basic structure and service without the Mary worship.


yup. plus apostolic succession, if you're into the whole laying-on-of-hands thing.
 
2014-04-07 02:14:07 PM  

Magorn: Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously...


This guy disagrees.

http://www.timecube.com

/NSFSanity
 
2014-04-07 02:15:04 PM  

enry: Also friendly to female priests, gay priests, and no real sex abuse scandal.


my mom, a devout episcopalian, used to proudly wear a button that said, "my church has AIDS."
 
2014-04-07 02:18:29 PM  

IndyMBA: I always referred to it as "Catholic Light" since it provided the same basic structure and service without the Mary worship.


Are you Robin Williams? He made that joke in 1986, and it probably wasn't a new one even then.

// I assume you got it from someone who got it from someone...who got it from Williams; or else got it from wherever HE got it from (Methuselah, probably)
 
2014-04-07 02:19:39 PM  
The local PBS afflilate broadcast his talk at the University of Oregon.

It was a great talk.

Then some older gentlemen during the Q&A started attacking Miller as a fraud and charlatan and non-believer because he believed in evolution.

I'm hoping Miller's textbook is what was selected for the high school in our school district.  They are updating the curriculum, and I've been in touch with someone at the district and have been assured the science textbooks will BE science textbooks.
 
2014-04-07 02:19:44 PM  

vwr0527: brandent: Francis calls Christian Ideology a sickness.

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/12/pope-francis-fundamentalis t- christians-are-mentally-sick-pope-francis-calls-muslims-brothers-and-s isters-false-prophet-pt-2-video-video-2456566.html

The density of crazy-per-inch2over there is exceedingly high. It is dangerously close to collapsing into a singularity of batshiat insane.


True.  Which is why the link is relevant and confirms the Pope's statements.
 
2014-04-07 02:23:31 PM  

Gordian Cipher: Magorn: Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously...

This guy disagrees.

http://www.timecube.com

/NSFSanity


That's something. I'm not sure what, but it is something.
 
2014-04-07 02:24:31 PM  

Dr Dreidel: // I assume you got it from someone who got it from someone...who got it from Williams; or else got it from wherever HE got it from (Methuselah, probably)


Probably saved it in my subconscious from when I was a kid listening to Williams' comedy courtesy of my parents.  I'd rather have his comedy stuck in my head rather than Howie Mandel's (another of my parents' favorites).
 
2014-04-07 02:26:56 PM  
For the record though, since Vatican 2... the Catholic Church has supported science, but not had official teachings. They have an official Astrophysics and Astronomy wing at the Vatican even... the current position of the Church is that the Church shouldn't dictate science, but use science to better understand God's creation. There are certain lines of scientific research they do not support (mostly embryonic stem cell stuff) for moral reasons... but the church isn't the anti-science order that it has been in the past.
 
2014-04-07 02:28:23 PM  

iheartscotch: This has nothing to do with Rome. It looks like Notre Dame University awards this particular award; unless, I'm reading the article wrong.


So what ? it's still in keeping with standard catholic beliefs. As it happens, catholics are great believers in science. The Catholic church has no problem, for example, with evolution or the Big Bang or a multi-billion year-old Earth.
 
2014-04-07 02:29:52 PM  

FlashHarry: enry: Also friendly to female priests, gay priests, and no real sex abuse scandal.

my mom, a devout episcopalian, used to proudly wear a button that said, "my church has AIDS."


So she didn't go in the summer?

/kidding, good on her
 
2014-04-07 02:37:14 PM  

firefly212: 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


Oh, the Jerks for Jesus use the Beatitudes, alright. Where do you think the persecution complex comes from?
 
2014-04-07 02:43:13 PM  

IndyMBA: Dr Dreidel: // I assume you got it from someone who got it from someone...who got it from Williams; or else got it from wherever HE got it from (Methuselah, probably)

Probably saved it in my subconscious from when I was a kid listening to Williams' comedy courtesy of my parents.  I'd rather have his comedy stuck in my head rather than Howie Mandel's (another of my parents' favorites).


His '86 routine is superior to the 2003 version, IMO. "Who decided cocaine was a good idea? 'Paranoid and impotent?! Gimme more of THAT!'"

// my dad (AFAIK, never touched the booger sugar) loves that line
// *gestures at chandeliers* "I want to thank Imelda Marcos for lending us her earrings for the evening..."
 
2014-04-07 02:44:27 PM  

Marine1: Catholics believe in evolution as the method through which God created the Universe. The difference is they believe there was a prime mover.


This guy?
www.airshipentertainment.com
 
2014-04-07 02:47:01 PM  

Zik-Zak: firefly212: 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Oh, the Jerks for Jesus use the Beatitudes, alright. Where do you think the persecution complex comes from?


It comes from within... seriously, ask a self-avowed evangelist to name the beatitudes... they can name the ten commandments easy... but they never bothered to read about that Jesus guy.... they also never bothered to consider whether or not they were being persecuted because of righteousness, or whether they were actually the ones persecuting because of righteousness. It is the kind of nuanced thought that people who live in a black and white world are simply incapable of.
 
2014-04-07 02:48:53 PM  

cgraves67: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

If they don't count the single biggest denomination as part of their religion, then perhaps that's why they get that "Christianity is a persecuted minority" mentality.


They only count them for the second of arguing that most of the country is Christians or if birth control is involved.

Personally, I love the stupidity of some of these evangelical/protestant churches.  "Sure, Christianity has been around for 2,000 years and our church is only 30 years old but if you don't follow OUR version of Christ then you're going to Hell!"
 
2014-04-07 02:52:11 PM  

firefly212: It comes from within... seriously, ask a self-avowed evangelist to name the beatitudes... they can name the ten commandments easy... but they never bothered to read about that Jesus guy.... they also never bothered to consider whether or not they were being persecuted because of righteousness, or whether they were actually the ones persecuting because of righteousness. It is the kind of nuanced thought that people who live in a black and white world are simply incapable of.


As long as they believe they're persecuted, they're persecuted, and they're in good with teh Jeezus. Hey, they already believe they're Christians, amirite?
 
2014-04-07 02:53:21 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: There's a very vocal idiot circle in the United States that you guys seem to think represents Christians in general, but it's not so.


Folks like you keep saying this, but you don't farking do anything about it.

If the Braying Minority is sullying your Faith, call them out!  Expose their heresies!  Open some media outlets!  Become the dominant voice!

Because you're getting killed in the marketing department.

Step up your game!
 
2014-04-07 03:09:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


I came for this and am pleased to see it rolled out so early. For years I even thought the accusation was a joke until at a family function several years ago when, in response to a question to my wife about her Catholic upbringing from a distant relative, a megachurch fundie cousin spoke right up in a loud voice to state that Catholics are  NOT Christians, but rather blasphemous idol worshipers who were going to burn in eternal hellfire.

My snort of derision further provoked her into denouncing my Jewish mother before other family members intervened to restore order to a rapidly devolving situation. Whoa...can't we all just get along? ;^)
 
2014-04-07 03:10:41 PM  

durbnpoisn: Even the shadow of the Earth on the moon?  How do you fake that?!  That's a direct observation.


Not singling you out here..many have mentioned this or the "circle of the earth" in the Bible..

A "circle" is, by definition, a plane-figure in geometry..that is, it is flat..  This is their 'out' on the shadows and pictures from space and whatnot..  Just pointing out..

Oh..!  Almost fergot..!  You can perfectly bound a square with a circle..  POOF..!  Any four arbitrary 'corners' you want..
 
2014-04-07 03:15:18 PM  

stuhayes2010: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.


I concur they don't. On the other hand I don't see them as christian.
 
2014-04-07 03:15:21 PM  

Stone Meadow: I came for this and am pleased to see it rolled out so early. For years I even thought the accusation was a joke until at a family function several years ago when, in response to a question to my wife about her Catholic upbringing from a distant relative, a megachurch fundie cousin spoke right up in a loud voice to state that Catholics are NOT Christians, but rather blasphemous idol worshipers who were going to burn in eternal hellfire.

My snort of derision further provoked her into denouncing my Jewish mother before other family members intervened to restore order to a rapidly devolving situation. Whoa...can't we all just get along? ;^)


Like I said earlier, I love those types of people.  I always want to ask them why, if theirs is the only true form of Christianity, it took nearly 2000 years for their church to be founded.
 
2014-04-07 03:17:52 PM  

FizixJunkee: Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling

Yeah, I'm loving the guy.

/Jewish


So you going to convert. Sorry could not resist. He is pretty cool.
 
2014-04-07 03:19:45 PM  

bigdog1960: FizixJunkee: Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling

Yeah, I'm loving the guy.

/Jewish

So you going to convert. Sorry could not resist. He is pretty cool.


He would convert but he already bought the big fur hat.
 
2014-04-07 03:22:56 PM  

bigdog1960: FizixJunkee: Mid_mo_mad_man: Magorn: I was unaware the Catholic Church has a Holy Office of Maximum Trolling....good on them

Francis is a roll with his trolling

Yeah, I'm loving the guy.

/Jewish

So you going to convert. Sorry could not resist. He is pretty cool.


Apparently Pope Frankie's bestest bud in the whole world is an Orthodox Rabbi, some I'm thinking he may not have to after Frankie slips a few doctrinal loopholes in
 
2014-04-07 03:24:33 PM  

Deucednuisance: PIP_the_TROLL: There's a very vocal idiot circle in the United States that you guys seem to think represents Christians in general, but it's not so.

Folks like you keep saying this, but you don't farking do anything about it.

If the Braying Minority is sullying your Faith, call them out!  Expose their heresies!  Open some media outlets!  Become the dominant voice!

Because you're getting killed in the marketing department.

Step up your game!


Why would that make a difference? Atheists and other people on the extreme left tend to see those conservatives of all stripes as "Stupid" at best or "Evil" at worst.Whereas on the right, the opposition is usually seen as "Weak" and "Naive". Perhaps "Lazy". And in the extreme, "Corrupted."

See the difference in perception? It's why people in the middle tend to swing conservative but vocalize liberal. Now, weakness or naivete are largely subjective and a matter of differing opinion. Being called stupid and evil tends to piss people off because they're absolute, core flaws in the person.

Now, granted, Pope Francis is doing an excellent PR job for Christianity. But a concerted effort by Christians in general would terrify leftists. Those efforts would be ignored and ridiculed and ultimately vilified. The reason Christianity is attacked has absolutely nothing to do with science or alleged suppression of it. It has nothing to do with teaching Creationism in schools or not being able to buy liquor on Sundays.

The problem really is weaponized morality. The idea that a set of values and beliefs can dictate criminal and social law. That they can dictate behavior. That they can lay out right and wrong in black and white terms.

Nobody wants to be judged and morality exists for the sole purpose of judgement.

When the left can admit that, then maybe we can find some effective middle ground.

Strangely, for Christians to act like Christians, it wouldn't make the news. As Christians, we're basically required to serve our fellow man. "Love they neighbor" is a pretty specific and broad mandate.
 
2014-04-07 03:31:37 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Strangely, for Christians to act like Christians, it wouldn't make the news.


A point somewhat invalidated by this statement Now, granted, Pope Francis is doing an excellent PR job for Christianity in the same post.

A pope who has made the news PRECISELY for behaving like a christian.
 
2014-04-07 03:33:29 PM  

Tigger: PIP_the_TROLL: Strangely, for Christians to act like Christians, it wouldn't make the news.

A point somewhat invalidated by this statement Now, granted, Pope Francis is doing an excellent PR job for Christianity in the same post.

A pope who has made the news PRECISELY for behaving like a christian.


Yes, but he's famous. Him eating an ice cream cone would make the news.

Bob Smith next door won't make the news.
 
2014-04-07 03:35:06 PM  

FriarReb98: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.  We're some sort of power-hungry heathens, if I remember correctly.


Power-hungry, oppresive, you apparently murdered all the "real" christians you could get your hands on, and practice idolatry by worshipping Mary.   Also some crap about the RCC being the biblical Whore of Babylon.

Personally, when I am mercilessly taunting Catholics I prefer the amusing Freudian edge to the Catholic obsession with "the VIRGIN (in all caps) Mary."  It seems especially prevalent in South America.  She's always depicted as a 20-something hottie, even if her 30-something son is dying in her arms.  They call her "mother mary" and also talk about her virginity and fertility in ways that are clearly sexual.

Not really much of a jump to incest fetish, catholic mothers, that weird and creepy trope of the overbearing catholic mother that sends her son to the priesthood because she'd rather give him to god than share him with some other woman...Really the psychosexual relations just don't stop.

But that's me being mean.  The RCC is generally better (at least in Europe and North America) than the evangelical protestants here in the US.  The mess in Africa is more dicey with the whole AIDS business, and South America is hard to separate "we're a lousy place to live" from "our religion is farking us over."

Gotta play it soft.
 
2014-04-07 03:35:28 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Why would that make a difference?


[snip]

I mean if I quoted all the deflection that followed, it'd be like a Funhouse Hall of Mirrors in here.
 
2014-04-07 03:38:29 PM  
media1.razorplanet.com
 
2014-04-07 03:41:55 PM  
"Christians show their love through our deeds and our politics. Take the poor and help them. Share your table with them. Treat them lime Jesus would."
-Rand Paul
 
2014-04-07 03:43:18 PM  
Papist infidels.
 
2014-04-07 03:47:48 PM  

Magorn: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Actually I can;t say for sure since I was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that biblical literalism is doctrine in only a VERY small minority of identified Christian denominations, and even among THEM "Young Earth Creationism" is a minority opinion (as that 6,000 year old thing is from the Bishop of Ussher not the bible).  But by far, they get the most attention since they are so loud and vocal with their views  (Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously.......)


Not in the US.

46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.  That might technically be a minority by itself, but only 85% of the country is religious.  Even if the other 9 or 10% religions in the US believe in their own brand of creationism (which is highly suspect) that bumps Christians and religious folk in general up to ~54%.  A majority.

And realistically it's going to be almost entirely christians, because any group that is not christian lacks the numbers and political clout to just stand there and loudly deny science, demanding the world go along with their complicated delusions.
 
2014-04-07 03:52:38 PM  

TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.


I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.
 
2014-04-07 03:54:15 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.


It's real, and I personally know a number of them, and I'm in the relatively heathen state of Oregon.
 
2014-04-07 03:58:45 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.


I cannot do the hearing of you. Nanananana.
 
2014-04-07 03:59:39 PM  

TheBigJerk: FriarReb98: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.  We're some sort of power-hungry heathens, if I remember correctly.

Power-hungry, oppresive, you apparently murdered all the "real" christians you could get your hands on, and practice idolatry by worshipping Mary.   Also some crap about the RCC being the biblical Whore of Babylon.

Personally, when I am mercilessly taunting Catholics I prefer the amusing Freudian edge to the Catholic obsession with "the VIRGIN (in all caps) Mary."  It seems especially prevalent in South America.  She's always depicted as a 20-something hottie, even if her 30-something son is dying in her arms.  They call her "mother mary" and also talk about her virginity and fertility in ways that are clearly sexual.

Not really much of a jump to incest fetish, catholic mothers, that weird and creepy trope of the overbearing catholic mother that sends her son to the priesthood because she'd rather give him to god than share him with some other woman...Really the psychosexual relations just don't stop.

But that's me being mean.  The RCC is generally better (at least in Europe and North America) than the evangelical protestants here in the US.  The mess in Africa is more dicey with the whole AIDS business, and South America is hard to separate "we're a lousy place to live" from "our religion is farking us over."

Gotta play it soft.


Look laddie we got this problem: see, we've only got just the one REALLY IMPORTANT Female in the mythos but the ancient archetypes must not be muddled with,  and so she's got to stand in for Mother, Maiden and Crone all by her onsies, and that gets things a we bit muddled, Savvy?
 
2014-04-07 04:02:48 PM  

TheBigJerk: Magorn: durbnpoisn: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.

I'm not a Catholic.  But my understanding is that they are among the few that are no so "fundemental" in their belief in the Bible.  They knowingly accept that it is a collection of stories, lessons, and parables.  Not to be taken so literally.
So I'm not surprised by this.

Actually I can;t say for sure since I was raised Catholic, but I would venture to say that biblical literalism is doctrine in only a VERY small minority of identified Christian denominations, and even among THEM "Young Earth Creationism" is a minority opinion (as that 6,000 year old thing is from the Bishop of Ussher not the bible).  But by far, they get the most attention since they are so loud and vocal with their views  (Flat earthers are also Biblical literalists by the way, saying the Earth MUST be flat because the bible talks about the "Four Corners" of the earth, and a sphere has no corners so obviously.......)

Not in the US.

46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.  That might technically be a minority by itself, but only 85% of the country is religious.  Even if the other 9 or 10% religions in the US believe in their own brand of creationism (which is highly suspect) that bumps Christians and religious folk in general up to ~54%.  A majority.

And realistically it's going to be almost entirely christians, because any group that is not christian lacks the numbers and political clout to just stand there and loudly deny science, demanding the world go along with their complicated delusions.


That's a shocking number, but reading the Poll question I would say it's and extremely poor-worded on designed to create a higher #3 response rate than is really the case as choosing 10,000 years rather than 6,000 year could lead some people to confuse the dawn of civilization with the evolution of humanity and thereby are not so much young earth creationist as poorly schooled in science
 
2014-04-07 04:02:53 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: The problem really is weaponized morality. The idea that a set of values and beliefs can dictate criminal and social law. That they can dictate behavior. That they can lay out right and wrong in black and white terms.


Like this?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/faith_and_values/2014/04/04/ ca tholic-teacher-pact-specifies-firing-offenses.html

Or this?

http://www.christianpost.com/news/united-methodist-official-denies-t ha t-ind-church-fired-gay-choir-director-over-sexual-orientation-112796/

How about this?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/catholic-parish-to-boy-scout-troop- ob ey-the-faith-on-homosexuality-or-go-so

Who's dictating to whom, really?

PIP_the_TROLL: I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.


Oh, you're one of those.  Been nice to know you.
 
2014-04-07 04:09:15 PM  

Deucednuisance: Like this?


[snip]

I'm not catholic, but in essence yes. Ultimately we want the right to decide what's right and wrong ourselves. Relativity = flexibility. If there is monolithic source of right and wrong, that's a problem. We don't want to hear it.

Deucednuisance: Oh, you're one of those. Been nice to know you.


I'm not. But that number stinks of "Dark Ages" to me - a myth perpetuated for the specific purpose of slandering the religious.
 
2014-04-07 05:04:40 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


No, but when the Vatican is a beacon of progressive learning and science, you gotta say, "What the fark Creationists?"
 
2014-04-07 05:12:33 PM  

TheBigJerk: FriarReb98: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.  We're some sort of power-hungry heathens, if I remember correctly.

Power-hungry, oppresive, you apparently murdered all the "real" christians you could get your hands on, and practice idolatry by worshipping Mary.   Also some crap about the RCC being the biblical Whore of Babylon.

Personally, when I am mercilessly taunting Catholics I prefer the amusing Freudian edge to the Catholic obsession with "the VIRGIN (in all caps) Mary."  It seems especially prevalent in South America.  She's always depicted as a 20-something hottie, even if her 30-something son is dying in her arms.  They call her "mother mary" and also talk about her virginity and fertility in ways that are clearly sexual.

Not really much of a jump to incest fetish, catholic mothers, that weird and creepy trope of the overbearing catholic mother that sends her son to the priesthood because she'd rather give him to god than share him with some other woman...Really the psychosexual relations just don't stop.

But that's me being mean.  The RCC is generally better (at least in Europe and North America) than the evangelical protestants here in the US.  The mess in Africa is more dicey with the whole AIDS business, and South America is hard to separate "we're a lousy place to live" from "our religion is farking us over."

Gotta play it soft.



I never got the young being sexual connection.  I always saw the virgin and youth as part of being pure.  Where virginity and youth are both associated with purity.  And Mary, mother of Christ, is the most pure among us.
 
2014-04-07 05:21:29 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


This squared.

Compared to some versions of American Christianity, Catholics are athestic science lovers.

/Burn them!!
 
2014-04-07 05:44:48 PM  

capt.hollister: iheartscotch: This has nothing to do with Rome. It looks like Notre Dame University awards this particular award; unless, I'm reading the article wrong.

So what ? it's still in keeping with standard catholic beliefs. As it happens, catholics are great believers in science. The Catholic church has no problem, for example, with evolution or the Big Bang or a multi-billion year-old Earth.


Or, apparently, with blessing torture chambers.  And absolving torturers of their sins.   In the cool new Pope's homeland...and not in way back in the Dark Ages, either:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pope-faces-accusations-argentina s- dirty-war/story?id=18745535
 
2014-04-07 06:06:44 PM  

TheBigJerk: Personally, when I am mercilessly taunting Catholics I prefer the amusing Freudian edge to the Catholic obsession with "the VIRGIN (in all caps) Mary." It seems especially prevalent in South America. She's always depicted as a 20-something hottie, even if her 30-something son is dying in her arms. They call her "mother mary" and also talk about her virginity and fertility in ways that are clearly sexual.

Not really much of a jump to incest fetish, catholic mothers, that weird and creepy trope of the overbearing catholic mother that sends her son to the priesthood because she'd rather give him to god than share him with some other woman...


This is just a Hispanic thing. If you modeled Mary as a 30+ Hispanic woman, she'd need 50 pounds and a mustache.
 
2014-04-07 08:27:26 PM  

PunGent: capt.hollister: iheartscotch: This has nothing to do with Rome. It looks like Notre Dame University awards this particular award; unless, I'm reading the article wrong.

So what ? it's still in keeping with standard catholic beliefs. As it happens, catholics are great believers in science. The Catholic church has no problem, for example, with evolution or the Big Bang or a multi-billion year-old Earth.

Or, apparently, with blessing torture chambers.  And absolving torturers of their sins.   In the cool new Pope's homeland...and not in way back in the Dark Ages, either:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pope-faces-accusations-argentina s- dirty-war/story?id=18745535


And the link with the subject at hand, that the catholic church supports teaching evolution, is ?
 
2014-04-07 08:44:53 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.


Heh. I suppose the irony of this is lost on you. It is this same attitude towards information that you yourself are exhibiting that enables that 46% in the first place. You better believe many people can willingly ignore information - you're apparently one of them.
 
2014-04-07 09:05:10 PM  

Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.

Heh. I suppose the irony of this is lost on you. It is this same attitude towards information that you yourself are exhibiting that enables that 46% in the first place. You better believe many people can willingly ignore information - you're apparently one of them.


I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe it. It stinks of propaganda to me. Like the Dark Ages. A myth maintained to slander the religious.
 
2014-04-07 09:16:19 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.

Heh. I suppose the irony of this is lost on you. It is this same attitude towards information that you yourself are exhibiting that enables that 46% in the first place. You better believe many people can willingly ignore information - you're apparently one of them.

I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe it. It stinks of propaganda to me. Like the Dark Ages. A myth maintained to slander the religious.



Case in point.
 
2014-04-07 09:26:02 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.

Heh. I suppose the irony of this is lost on you. It is this same attitude towards information that you yourself are exhibiting that enables that 46% in the first place. You better believe many people can willingly ignore information - you're apparently one of them.

I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe it. It stinks of propaganda to me. Like the Dark Ages. A myth maintained to slander the religious.



Which is probably very similar to what many of those 46% would say to justify their belief in Young Earth Creationism.
 
2014-04-07 09:39:24 PM  

Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.

Heh. I suppose the irony of this is lost on you. It is this same attitude towards information that you yourself are exhibiting that enables that 46% in the first place. You better believe many people can willingly ignore information - you're apparently one of them.

I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe it. It stinks of propaganda to me. Like the Dark Ages. A myth maintained to slander the religious.


Which is probably very similar to what many of those 46% would say to justify their belief in Young Earth Creationism.


Not exactly. The source for the generally accepted scientific age of the Earth is radiocarbon dating. I'm not saying carbon dating is wrong. I'm saying *if* it is, or if we're wrong in our calculations based on it, then that date is wrong. Fundamentally what we're doing is putting a shiatload of faith in something that can change. The speed of light is no longer absolute, how does radiocarbon dating (which doesn't even approach that level of immutability) stack up in the grand scheme of unassailable numbers?

I don't believe in Young Earth Creationism. I don't know why anyone would. The guy that did it just added up all the numbers in the bible that he could and made a guess. But huge stretches of time aren't even mentioned at all. The source doesn't substantiate the theory even theologically. It's silly and most Christians don't believe in that.

However, if we believe - if Scientists believe they can speak in absolutes about the history and makeup of this world then that represents the absolute pinnacle of hubris. Man is flawed and all that man produces is flawed and our understanding is flawed. To deny that fact is to wallow in narcissistic delusion.
 
2014-04-07 10:13:26 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.


This.
 
2014-04-07 11:17:39 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: Damnhippyfreak: PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.

Heh. I suppose the irony of this is lost on you. It is this same attitude towards information that you yourself are exhibiting that enables that 46% in the first place. You better believe many people can willingly ignore information - you're apparently one of them.

I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe it. It stinks of propaganda to me. Like the Dark Ages. A myth maintained to slander the religious.


Which is probably very similar to what many of those 46% would say to justify their belief in Young Earth Creationism.

Not exactly. The source for the generally accepted scientific age of the Earth is radiocarbon dating. I'm not saying carbon dating is wrong. I'm saying *if* it is, or if we're wrong in our calculations based on it, then that date is wrong. Fundamentally what we're doing is putting a shiatload of faith in something that can change. The speed of light is no longer absolute, how does radiocarbon dating (which doesn't even approach that level of immutability) stack up in the grand scheme of unassailable numbers?

I don't believe in Young Earth Creationism. I don't know why anyone would. The guy that did it just added up all the numbers in the bible that he could and made a guess. But huge stretches of time aren't even mentioned at all. The source doesn't substantiate the theory even theologically. It's silly and most Christians don't believe in that.

However, if we believe - if Scientists believe they can speak in absolutes about the history and makeup of this world then that represents the absolute pinnacle of hubris. Man is flawed and all that man produces is flawed and our understanding is flawed. To deny that fact is to wallow in narcissistic delusion.



Then you're back to ignoring evidence and going with gut feelings. Just saying, after your posts, you're really bringing home the kind of thinking those 46% might be using - whether you intend to or not.
 
2014-04-07 11:51:25 PM  

Magorn: Look laddie we got this problem: see, we've only got just the one REALLY IMPORTANT Female in the mythos but the ancient archetypes must not be muddled with,  and so she's got to stand in for Mother, Maiden and Crone all by her onsies, and that gets things a we bit muddled, Savvy?


Bah! Humbug!

Actually Mary Magdalene plays the Maiden pretty well, or she would if the church didn't decide to massively downplay her involvement because she was a filthy whore.  This opens up more mean jokes revolving around "The Fisher of Men" and certain apostles being jealous that some woman was stealing "their" man, but it's late and I have cities to reclaim from the zombie hordes, music to listen to, and lesbian furry porn to write.

I may have just shared too much.
 
2014-04-08 12:11:45 AM  

Damnhippyfreak: Then you're back to ignoring evidence and going with gut feelings. Just saying, after your posts, you're really bringing home the kind of thinking those 46% might be using - whether you intend to or not.


Far from it. If anything, young earthers have more in common with those who accept the scientific date on faith than they do with me. Both groups are placing unquestioning faith in numbers somebody else added up and for which there is not and can never be absolute substantiation.

I exist in the middle. I believe God created the Earth. Now whether that was six literal days or six metaphorical days is irrelevant to me. I know He has the power to do either. I also believe in Evolution as a mechanic placed in the world by God no different than gravity or the certainty of death and taxes. These are mechanisms *we* need and God is neither restrained by nor beholden to them.

He's the programmer, we're the code. The rules that apply to us don't apply to him.
 
2014-04-08 12:39:35 AM  
PIP_the_TROLL: I am a special middle-of-the-road snowflake which makes me better than and above everyone.

That's nice kiddo, here's the deal.  There have been a number of polls, a slim majority of religious Americans, overwhelmingly christian, believe in creationism, young-earth, answers-in-genesis, retarded creationism.  They're wrong, they're jokes, and it's only in America.  Europe doesn't have this problem, Asia doesn't have this problem (or as many Christians to poll in the first place).  The Southern Hemisphere may have this problem but I don't know the numbers for Argentina or Africa or even Mexico.

So what?  So nothing.  Christianity isn't the problem, nor is it unfairly blamed.  The problem was and is people like you who defend with all your might the right of MORONS to remain morons.  All through this thread you've been denying the existence or defending the existence of idiot creationists while attacking science and reality with debunked and dismissed AiG bullshiat and deflections aplenty.

You pretend this isn't what you are doing, just as you pretend that the ever-present creationist drive to inject magical religion bullshiat into science class isn't a thing that is happening.  But you are.
 
2014-04-08 03:41:42 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Damnhippyfreak: Then you're back to ignoring evidence and going with gut feelings. Just saying, after your posts, you're really bringing home the kind of thinking those 46% might be using - whether you intend to or not.


Far from it. If anything, young earthers have more in common with those who accept the scientific date on faith than they do with me. Both groups are placing unquestioning faith in numbers somebody else added up and for which there is not and can never be absolute substantiation.



More importantly, refusing to even look at evidence, even when substantiated:

PIP_the_TROLL: TheBigJerk: 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth Creationism.

I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.

 
2014-04-08 03:53:36 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: I don't believe in Young Earth Creationism. I don't know why anyone would.



Again, the sort of thinking involved probably goes something along like this:

PIP_the_TROLL: I don't believe that number. Don't bother with citations, I still don't believe it.


Whether that number is poll numbers or the age of the earth, refusing to even consider the evidence behind it remains something less than rational, and what allows these sort of beliefs to be maintained.

I know I'm being harsh on you here, pointing this out repeatedly, but your failing to come to grips with your own devaluing of evidence shows that you have more in common with these people than you think. You don't have to wonder why anyone would believe in Young Earth Creationism - just look at your own words.
 
2014-04-08 07:02:25 AM  

TheBigJerk: That's nice kiddo, here's the deal. There have been a number of polls, a slim majority of religious Americans, overwhelmingly christian, believe in creationism, young-earth, answers-in-genesis, retarded creationism. They're wrong, they're jokes, and it's only in America. Europe doesn't have this problem, Asia doesn't have this problem (or as many Christians to poll in the first place). The Southern Hemisphere may have this problem but I don't know the numbers for Argentina or Africa or even Mexico.


Okay, let me try to help.

I'm from the Caribbean - the Cayman Islands specifically. This country is solidly Christian. 95+ percent. I've traveled extensively throughout the region, from Cuba to Trinidad and along Central and upper South America. And I've traveled extensively through the United States since I was 2 years old, through simple proximity. Even went to university there and lived there for a while. Oh, also traveled throughout Europe for a time.

Now, I say that to say this: You'll be hard pressed to find a region of the world more staunchly and fundamentally Christian than the Caribbean. We're steeped in it here from the moment we're born. Private Christian Schools flourish and even the public curriculum includes religious education classes. Nearly all public functions begin with prayer. Our social laws - where not constrained by international law - find their moral center in Christianity. Clubs and bars close early on Saturday and there's nothing but gas stations and restaurants open on Sunday. The people around you proselytize constantly. They quote scripture and hum hymns while they work.

We're mostly black and hispanic descent down here in the region and you know how black people love us some Jesus.

You can't even imagine a world where every surface reflects a Christian point of view. My coworker from Colorado found he needed a great deal of adjusting. In the US, you're not used to religion being so close to the surface anymore.

Now, while my country is very, very small - it's represented by hundreds of churches of all Christian denominations - largely ones imported from or affiliated with the United States. I was raised in Church of God (in fact, the church I was raised in was founded here by missionaries from Hagerstown, Maryland), but I've spent time in many, many others. I've traveled all over the world and met thousands and thousands of people (I'm especially interested in talking to people of other religions). I grew up next door to and partially within the borders of the United States. I'm surrounded by black and white Protestants and Latin Catholics.

But despite being raised in this absolutely Christian world, I can count the number of young earth creationists I've met on one hand.

*That* is why I don't believe that number.

Scientists say they won't believe what they can't see?
 
2014-04-08 08:15:09 AM  
A little off subject, but did anyone else listen to the Hardcore History podcast about the Anabaptists?
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/9/1/1/911ad132416c9257/dchha48_Prophets_of _D oom.mp3?c_id=5613758&expiration=1396980707&hwt=a1ce61300e20ef08d47db88 d7ff2d377

Fark me!
 
2014-04-08 08:41:34 AM  
PIP_the_TROLL: (long string of personal anecdotes)

Scientists say they won't believe what they can't see?


The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

I grew up in "Real America" and it was creationists as far as the eye could see.
 
2014-04-08 08:56:46 AM  

TheBigJerk: The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."


Let me be clearer. My personal experiences cause me to call that number into question. I'm not interested in subjecting myself to scientific rigor over whether or not I give a charged poll question credence.

I'm not saying that number is wrong, I'm saying I don't believe it. It does not correlate with what I've experienced in the real world. And ultimately that is the source and purpose of observation.
 
2014-04-08 12:22:17 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: The source for the generally accepted scientific age of the Earth is radiocarbon dating.


I know I bid you Good Day, earlier and all, but if you think this is a factual statement, you are stunningly misinformed.

Radiocarbon can only date objects that were once alive.  The Earth is a shiat-ton older than Life.

Radiocarbon dating has an effective range of about 50,000 years.  The amount Earth is older than that is shiat-tons of orders of magnitude more than the prior statement.

Like many things in this thread, you speak as if from a place of Special Knowledge, yet are strikingly misinformed.

i.chzbgr.com

shtychkn: I never got the young being sexual connection.


Nothing Freudian here, amirite?

www.scborromeo.org
 
2014-04-08 12:26:08 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: The speed of light is no longer absolute


Sigh, just looked at your citation, and you are a fool.  That's not what the takeaway of that article is.

Do you know how prisms work?

Or, since you're so well informed by your faith...

Rainbows?
 
2014-04-08 01:33:03 PM  

Deucednuisance: I know I bid you Good Day, earlier and all, but if you think this is a factual statement, you are stunningly misinformed.


No I made a mistake and used the incorrect term. "radiometric dating' since you want to be pedantic. The core precepts are the same, just the source is different. Go ahead and split that hair though.

Deucednuisance: Sigh, just looked at your citation, and you are a fool. That's not what the takeaway of that article is.

Do you know how prisms work?


Yes, I understand refraction just fine. The point is, the speed of life is absolute - except when it's not. Light is always Light. C is always C. Except when it's not. And for fun, let's throw some gravitational lensing in there, or a black hole.

Too many things in Science nowadays are spoken of in absolutes with insufficient reason. It wasn't so before. Scientists almost never spoke in absolutes. Now anybody with a white coat is a member of the priesthood and their word is law.
 
2014-04-08 01:54:50 PM  
Sigh:

Speed of light is absolute IN A VACUUM!

WHEN IT TRAVELS THROUGH A MEDIUM, THE MEDIUM AFFECTS THE SPEED! WE'VE KNOWN THIS SINCE NEWTON!  THAT'S WHAT REFRACTION *IS*!

Jeebus.
 
2014-04-08 02:33:31 PM  

Deucednuisance: Sigh:

Speed of light is absolute IN A VACUUM!

WHEN IT TRAVELS THROUGH A MEDIUM, THE MEDIUM AFFECTS THE SPEED! WE'VE KNOWN THIS SINCE NEWTON!  THAT'S WHAT REFRACTION *IS*!

Jeebus.


Making my point for me, buddy. Science can't speak in absolutes. It's nothing but a series of interconnected caveats.
 
2014-04-08 02:41:21 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: It's nothing but a series of interconnected caveats.


Absolute: Any wave propagating through a medium will have its speed altered by that medium in ways which can be measured, quantified, and from which predictions can be made.  Prove that statement false.

Likewise absolute: you are sophomoric, in the Latin sense of the word.

Have a nice day.  I have far better things to do than further enable your prattling.
 
2014-04-08 03:29:56 PM  

capt.hollister: PunGent: capt.hollister: iheartscotch: This has nothing to do with Rome. It looks like Notre Dame University awards this particular award; unless, I'm reading the article wrong.

So what ? it's still in keeping with standard catholic beliefs. As it happens, catholics are great believers in science. The Catholic church has no problem, for example, with evolution or the Big Bang or a multi-billion year-old Earth.

Or, apparently, with blessing torture chambers.  And absolving torturers of their sins.   In the cool new Pope's homeland...and not in way back in the Dark Ages, either:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pope-faces-accusations-argentina s- dirty-war/story?id=18745535

And the link with the subject at hand, that the catholic church supports teaching evolution, is ?


Really?

Fine.  A belief in some aspects of the modern world...such as evolution...is clearly is no guarantee that they've cast off older, darker beliefs...in things like torture.

The new Pope is making a lot of nice speeches, and symbolic gestures, which is nice.

I'm going to reserve judgment before looking to the Vatican for any moral guidelines, however.  Particularly while they continue to extend diplomatic immunity to men who enabled child molestation.
 
2014-04-08 04:20:47 PM  
PIP_the_TROLL: my ignorance is equal to your knowledge!

I don't know why I'm playing this game, I mean it's in your farking name.

Just bored too I guess.
 
2014-04-08 05:46:18 PM  

Deucednuisance: Absolute: Any wave propagating through a medium will have its speed altered by that medium in ways which can be measured, quantified, and from which predictions can be made. Prove that statement false.


Rebuttal: Gravity.

Deucednuisance: Likewise absolute: you are sophomoric, in the Latin sense of the word.


Ouch. Finally the ad hominem.

TheBigJerk: PIP_the_TROLL: my ignorance is equal to your knowledge!

I don't know why I'm playing this game, I mean it's in your farking name.

Just bored too I guess.


I don't mind a good debate. Even ones where I take a lot of hits.

What I don't understand is the statement as to my ignorance. I didn't say the number that started this tumble down the hillside was wrong - I said I don't believe it.

Since when has something being in a poll on the internet or even in a science textbook made it undeniably, irrefutably true? When did publishing become axiomatic? How often is 'SCIENCE!" wrong? How often do the Holy Orders fail you?

Certainly, one of the central and most important strengths in the Scientific Method is the ability to adjust as new evidence becomes apparent. But for this very reason, nothing proposed by science can *ever* be an absolute. All things are true - until they aren't. While that is not a flaw in the method, it *is* a flaw in those who worship with blind adherence at the altar of "SCIENCE!"

Science offers us nothing but man's limited understanding of his own limited observations. It is a very powerful tool and it's certainly the apex of human achievement, but ultimately it does not and can not offer absolute truth.
 
2014-04-08 06:08:29 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Rebuttal: Gravity.


Double rebuttal: curved space.

PIP_the_TROLL: Ouch. Finally the ad hominem.


Not an "ad hominem", that would be saying you are wrong because of who you are.

It was an "insult", based on observation.  If you think that light slowing down in a dense medium is evidence that C is incorrect, you don't understand what C is.  I mean, why is it dark at the bottom of the Ocean?

You seem to be forgetting that Light is a wave and propagates in media just like any other wave.

That the scientists made a really dense medium that was still not opaque is interesting, but it doesn't invalidate C.

You think it does.

You are indeed a Wise Fool.

And I see your observation that you haven't met many Young Earth Creationists, and I raise you the Southern Baptist Convention, the second largest denomination in America, where Young Earth Creationism has been an article of faith since the Convention of 1982.

I present you my in-laws: Southern Baptists from Richmond Virginia, 100% YECs, attending any number of chain churches (like Cornerstone) where YEC is Doctrine.

Let the scales fall from your eyes.
 
2014-04-08 08:59:42 PM  

stuhayes2010: Satanic_Hamster: Catholics don't count as Christians to creationists, subby.

This.


A lot of the non-Catholic Christians arent too accepting of the Catholic tenet of "repent and ye shall be saved" either.

The Vatican has come a long way; relatively speaking.  And this current Pope is moving the church even more progressively.  Nearly enough for me to support them.  Nearly.
 
2014-04-08 11:19:40 PM  

PunGent: capt.hollister: PunGent: capt.hollister: iheartscotch: This has nothing to do with Rome. It looks like Notre Dame University awards this particular award; unless, I'm reading the article wrong.

So what ? it's still in keeping with standard catholic beliefs. As it happens, catholics are great believers in science. The Catholic church has no problem, for example, with evolution or the Big Bang or a multi-billion year-old Earth.

Or, apparently, with blessing torture chambers.  And absolving torturers of their sins.   In the cool new Pope's homeland...and not in way back in the Dark Ages, either:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pope-faces-accusations-argentina s- dirty-war/story?id=18745535

And the link with the subject at hand, that the catholic church supports teaching evolution, is ?

Really?

Fine.  A belief in some aspects of the modern world...such as evolution...is clearly is no guarantee that they've cast off older, darker beliefs...in things like torture.

The new Pope is making a lot of nice speeches, and symbolic gestures, which is nice.

I'm going to reserve judgment before looking to the Vatican for any moral guidelines, however.  Particularly while they continue to extend diplomatic immunity to men who enabled child molestation.


And, again, this has nothing to do with the catholic church's support of science.  It also believes in transubstantiation and miracles, which is a whole lot unscientific, but it is a religion after all.

Whatever steps it has taken in the matters of the temporal sins its representatives have committed, which are many, as you pointed out, are open to moral judgment, but its belief and support for science in general, and evolution in particular, are verifiable facts.
 
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