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(Washington Post)   I haven't read the Senate report on CIA torture, but since I'm the person who approved that torture, let me just say that the Senate report on torture is wrong, and that torture works. Also, torture   (washingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, CIA, CIA interrogations, torture  
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2535 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Apr 2014 at 4:10 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-06 04:13:02 PM  
When you torture a person, they'll confess to anything.  100% success rate.

And we're still telling Putin that he should cut back on HIS human rights abuses...
 
2014-04-06 04:18:07 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: When you torture a person, they'll confess to anything.  100% success rate.

And we're still telling Putin that he should cut back on HIS human rights abuses...


Hey torture works, it got us bin Laden. I saw it in a movie.
 
2014-04-06 04:18:49 PM  
You forget that we are fighting an enemy that hates our freedom.  It's not the torture, it's the freedom that is cruel and unusual to them.  Important distinction.
 
2014-04-06 04:18:51 PM  
Talk to the Hague, because the face ain't listening.
 
2014-04-06 04:19:37 PM  
Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.
 
2014-04-06 04:21:05 PM  
How about this: instead of gathering evidence, writing reports, and holding endless debates - let's just go straight to the pepsi challenge.

I'll whisper to you the name of one city in the continental United States where I'm about to explode a dirty bomb.
Then, we'll get someone to come out of the audience and let them waterboard you about a hundred and eighty times.

If the only city you name is the one I gave you, then you win.
If you name any other city in an attempt to just get them to farking stop, then I win.
 
2014-04-06 04:21:46 PM  
...and like such as?

I haven't read the report, and I can't back any of this up with anything of substance, but first context which no sh*t, second effectiveness which just trust me it worked, and third we were authorized so it's all good.  I can't really elaborate any further.

What an interesting read.
 
2014-04-06 04:23:52 PM  

Karac: How about this: instead of gathering evidence, writing reports, and holding endless debates - let's just go straight to the pepsi challenge.

I'll whisper to you the name of one city in the continental United States where I'm about to explode a dirty bomb.
Then, we'll get someone to come out of the audience and let them waterboard you about a hundred and eighty times.

If the only city you name is the one I gave you, then you win.
If you name any other city in an attempt to just get them to farking stop, then I win.


THAT is an EXCELLENT analogy.
 
2014-04-06 04:26:25 PM  
I love how these asswipes always hide behind the "burden of protecting innocent people."

You know what? I'm OK without your protection. I'd rather take my chances with another terrorist attack, which while horrible, isn't worth selling your soul to avenge. Don't act like you're single-handedly keeping me safe by shocking and drowning people, because I'm not really in all that much danger anyway. 9/11 was successful beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams. That is the BEST they will ever do. I don't like that people died, but I'm not going to give up all that is important as an American and as a human being to simply reduce the chances (not even eliminate) that something like that will happen again. It's a dangerous world, I'm prepared to live in it without people being tortured in my name. Fark you.
 
2014-04-06 04:28:08 PM  
The article:

It was about 9/11 and freedoms and furthermore
 
2014-04-06 04:28:09 PM  
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2014-04-06 04:28:29 PM  

JerkStore: I love how these asswipes always hide behind the "burden of protecting innocent people."

You know what? I'm OK without your protection. I'd rather take my chances with another terrorist attack, which while horrible, isn't worth selling your soul to avenge. Don't act like you're single-handedly keeping me safe by shocking and drowning people, because I'm not really in all that much danger anyway. 9/11 was successful beyond Bin Laden's wildest dreams. That is the BEST they will ever do. I don't like that people died, but I'm not going to give up all that is important as an American and as a human being to simply reduce the chances (not even eliminate) that something like that will happen again. It's a dangerous world, I'm prepared to live in it without people being tortured in my name. Fark you.


Thank you.
 
2014-04-06 04:28:48 PM  
"Hard Measures: How Aggressive CIA Actions After 9/11 Saved American Lives."

When you save fifty lives at the expense of thousands of lives, that's not saving lives.
 
2014-04-06 04:29:40 PM  
Even if torture is effective, it's still wrong.
 
2014-04-06 04:31:19 PM  
People might think it is wrong for me to condemn a report I haven't read

What's his fark handle?
 
2014-04-06 04:34:11 PM  
Then why has every CIA director said that torture never produced any actionable results.
 
2014-04-06 04:34:59 PM  

Martian_Astronomer: Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.


The threat of torture works.  That's how we separate the men from the pussies.

Simply implying that torture may be part of our inventory to extract information may be enough to make a lot of the "enemy" talk.  If they know that torture is absolutely forbidden and that it would be condoned under no circumstances would only offer comfort to the enemy.  Remember the first Iraqi war? We were overwhelmed with prisoners looking for a hot meal and a place to sleep.  In exchange all they had to do was put down their arms (if they had any) and come along peacefully.
 
2014-04-06 04:37:10 PM  
An article in the WaPo supporting and justifying torture? I'm shocked, shocked by such a thing!

/read too much of this from krauthammer and friends
//people still call the WaPo "left wing"
///plus they ruined Slate
 
2014-04-06 04:37:13 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: "Hard Measures: How Aggressive CIA Actions After 9/11 Saved American Lives."

When you save fifty lives at the expense of thousands of lives, that's not saving lives.


Save that kind of talk for the animal researcher protest.
 
2014-04-06 04:37:32 PM  
The most powerful tools the US has is its overpowering military might, and the goodwill that comes from not being dicks with it.

You are undermining one of those.

/brand matters
 
2014-04-06 04:40:55 PM  

Karac: How about this: instead of gathering evidence, writing reports, and holding endless debates - let's just go straight to the pepsi challenge.

I'll whisper to you the name of one city in the continental United States where I'm about to explode a dirty bomb.
Then, we'll get someone to come out of the audience and let them waterboard you about a hundred and eighty times.

If the only city you name is the one I gave you, then you win.
If you name any other city in an attempt to just get them to farking stop, then I win.


Excellent analogy.
 
2014-04-06 04:41:41 PM  

clowncar on fire: Phil Moskowitz: "Hard Measures: How Aggressive CIA Actions After 9/11 Saved American Lives."

When you save fifty lives at the expense of thousands of lives, that's not saving lives.

Save that kind of talk for the animal researcher protest.


I forgot to ask- did those thousands actually die or only have to bear the torture long enough to give the information that saved those fifty people, then return to their cells in time for dinner?
 
2014-04-06 04:44:01 PM  
"The report exposes brutality that stands in stark contrast to our values as a nation. It chronicles a stain on our history that must never again be allowed to happen."  Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.)
 
2014-04-06 04:44:16 PM  

WayToBlue: The most powerful tools the US has is its overpowering military might, and the goodwill that comes from not being dicks with it.

You are undermining one of those.

/brand matters


Carrot and stick.  you cooperate with that might- things will only improve.  You fight, we're going to make you miserable .
 
2014-04-06 04:45:45 PM  

red5ish: "The report exposes brutality that stands in stark contrast to our values as a nation. It chronicles a stain on our history that must never again be allowed to happen."  Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.)


Duh.  that's what torture is all about; de-valuing your life unless you cooperate.
 
2014-04-06 04:46:54 PM  

clowncar on fire: Martian_Astronomer: Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.

The threat of torture works.  That's how we separate the men from the pussies.

Simply implying that torture may be part of our inventory to extract information may be enough to make a lot of the "enemy" talk.  If they know that torture is absolutely forbidden and that it would be condoned under no circumstances would only offer comfort to the enemy.  Remember the first Iraqi war? We were overwhelmed with prisoners looking for a hot meal and a place to sleep.  In exchange all they had to do was put down their arms (if they had any) and come along peacefully.


Those guys surrendered a decade before we started torturing people.  They surrendered instead of fighting to the last man because they knew we wouldn't hurt them.

The best advertisement Al Queda ever produced was pictures of American soldiers mistreating prisoners in Abu Ghraid and Bush administration officials defending the use of torture.  Nothing they could accuse the US of doing was as bad as what we freely admitted to.

You captured one terrorist and tortured him.  Congratulations, you'll hold him in prison without trial for the rest of his life.  That's one guy who'll never kill another American.  Unfortunately, you also just convinced his brothers, sons, cousins, and neighbors - who probably didn't like the asshole anyway - to take up arms themselves.
 
2014-04-06 04:46:56 PM  
Freedom HugsTM all around!
 
2014-04-06 04:47:58 PM  
Ah, yes, the CIA, the organization that could take Mossadegh's speech -

Our long years of negotiations with foreign countries...have yielded no results thus far. With the oil revenues we could meet our entire budget and combat poverty, disease, and backwardness among our people. Another important consideration is that by the elimination of the power of the British company, we would also eliminate corruption and intrigue, by means of which the internal affairs of our country have been influenced. Once this tutelage has ceased, Iran will have achieved its economic and political independence. The Iranian state prefers to take over the production of petroleum itself. The company should do nothing else but return its property to the rightful owners. The nationalization law provide that 25% of the net profits on oil be set aside to meet all the legitimate claims of the company for compensation. It has been asserted abroad that Iran intends to expel the foreign oil experts from the country and then shut down oil installations. Not only is this allegation absurd; it is utter invention.

and conclude that he was a dangerous Communist who should be deposed and besides, MI6 asked them nicely, and besides, the oil companies have got their hankies twisted up, and besides, Roooossia is right over there with COMMIES! And here we are 60 years later, still trying to scrape the dogCIAt off our shoes.
 
2014-04-06 04:49:00 PM  
There's a phrase that we've coined when talking about this stuff. Something about the end justifying the means. I thought we had this settled a long time ago.
 
2014-04-06 04:50:03 PM  
I dont know this guy, but I would bet his life that he is a lying piece of shiat and should be water-boarded until he tells the truth.
Because we KNOW that water-boarding works!!
 
2014-04-06 04:50:43 PM  

crozzo: Ah, yes, the CIA, the organization that could take Mossadegh's speech -

Our long years of negotiations with foreign countries...have yielded no results thus far. With the oil revenues we could meet our entire budget and combat poverty, disease, and backwardness among our people. Another important consideration is that by the elimination of the power of the British company, we would also eliminate corruption and intrigue, by means of which the internal affairs of our country have been influenced. Once this tutelage has ceased, Iran will have achieved its economic and political independence. The Iranian state prefers to take over the production of petroleum itself. The company should do nothing else but return its property to the rightful owners. The nationalization law provide that 25% of the net profits on oil be set aside to meet all the legitimate claims of the company for compensation. It has been asserted abroad that Iran intends to expel the foreign oil experts from the country and then shut down oil installations. Not only is this allegation absurd; it is utter invention.

and conclude that he was a dangerous Communist who should be deposed and besides, MI6 asked them nicely, and besides, the oil companies have got their hankies twisted up, and besides, Roooossia is right over there with COMMIES! And here we are 60 years later, still trying to scrape the dogCIAt off our shoes.


Mohammed Mossedegh: a nationalist who got pissed off at exploitation by the British, and tried to kick them out of his country.  In 1776 he would have been hailed as a Founding Father.  In 1956, he was considered a commie bastard.
 
2014-04-06 04:51:21 PM  
If we waterboarded that guy we could get him to say that torture is wrong and ineffective.
 
2014-04-06 04:51:24 PM  

red5ish: "The report exposes brutality that stands in stark contrast to our values as a nation. It chronicles a stain on our history that must never again be allowed to happen."  Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.)




The same could be said about the interment of Japanese Americans during WW-2. Maybe the best we can hope for is that we won't make precisely the same mistake next time something really scary happens, but will instead do some new bad thing each time.

Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear. - Bertrand Russell
 
2014-04-06 04:51:55 PM  

clowncar on fire: WayToBlue: The most powerful tools the US has is its overpowering military might, and the goodwill that comes from not being dicks with it.

You are undermining one of those.

/brand matters

Carrot and stick.  you cooperate with that might- things will only improve.  You fight, we're going to make you miserable .


So, what you're saying is torture is fine and dandy when we do it. Gotcha.
 
2014-04-06 04:52:23 PM  
It ain't about whether torture "works".

It's about:
1) Whether other methods can work as well or better
2) The consequences of the methods we use
 
2014-04-06 04:54:33 PM  
On 9/11 the terrorists won. It was not the planes, the deaths, the buildings, or the pride. The terrorists won because we became like them. I am guilty of finding Gitmo, extra ordinary rendition, unprovoked war on an inept and broken dictator, drone strikes, and yes, torture acceptable. Many Americans still find these things just fine even after seeing that whether or not they are successful they are wrong. It is a shorter step to extend these things to our own citizen than the steps that led to them in the first place.

And yes, both sides are bad on all these issues.
 
2014-04-06 04:56:02 PM  

whither_apophis: Marcus Aurelius: When you torture a person, they'll confess to anything.  100% success rate.

And we're still telling Putin that he should cut back on HIS human rights abuses...

Hey torture works, it got us bin Laden. I saw it in a movie.


It also got 250k werewolves convicted and killed and I don't see any werewolves rampaging anywhere anymore. Therefore torture is good.
 
2014-04-06 04:56:57 PM  

Karac: clowncar on fire: Martian_Astronomer: Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.

The threat of torture works.  That's how we separate the men from the pussies.

Simply implying that torture may be part of our inventory to extract information may be enough to make a lot of the "enemy" talk.  If they know that torture is absolutely forbidden and that it would be condoned under no circumstances would only offer comfort to the enemy.  Remember the first Iraqi war? We were overwhelmed with prisoners looking for a hot meal and a place to sleep.  In exchange all they had to do was put down their arms (if they had any) and come along peacefully.

Those guys surrendered a decade before we started torturing people.  They surrendered instead of fighting to the last man because they knew we wouldn't hurt them.

The best advertisement Al Queda ever produced was pictures of American soldiers mistreating prisoners in Abu Ghraid and Bush administration officials defending the use of torture.  Nothing they could accuse the US of doing was as bad as what we freely admitted to.

You captured one terrorist and tortured him.  Congratulations, you'll hold him in prison without trial for the rest of his life.  That's one guy who'll never kill another American.  Unfortunately, you also just convinced his brothers, sons, cousins, and neighbors - who probably didn't like the asshole anyway - to take up arms themselves.


If we are torturing people to get "fresh" information- then (without giving them a hold out date) after six months that would appear to be useless information provided unless it was to resolve a past issue that they were dirrectly involved with.  Trying to get fresh information ten years later would definitely be wrong on our part.

I don't have a problem with the implied threat of torture on a new prisoner although torturing with the possibility of death resulting is over the line.
 
2014-04-06 04:57:22 PM  

clowncar on fire: Martian_Astronomer: Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.

The threat of torture works.  That's how we separate the men from the pussies.

Simply implying that torture may be part of our inventory to extract information may be enough to make a lot of the "enemy" talk.  If they know that torture is absolutely forbidden and that it would be condoned under no circumstances would only offer comfort to the enemy.  Remember the first Iraqi war? We were overwhelmed with prisoners looking for a hot meal and a place to sleep.  In exchange all they had to do was put down their arms (if they had any) and come along peacefully.


This seems self-contradictory. Wouldn't not torturing prisoners encourage those surrendering soldiers that you use as an example. Isn't a "hot meal and a place to sleep" an example of "comfort to the enemy" that you're arguing againt?
 
2014-04-06 04:57:50 PM  
Torquemada reportedly seen twisting his mushdache and grinning madly
 
2014-04-06 05:01:07 PM  
This program was approved at the highest levels of the government, judged legal by the Justice Department

Sure, by the administration's pet lawyers who did more torturing. Of logic.
 
2014-04-06 05:01:16 PM  

goatleggedfellow: It ain't about whether torture "works".

It's about:
1) Whether other methods can work as well or better
2) The consequences of the methods we use


But you have to admit, if the data gathered from torture can't be trusted, then even considering those questions is irrelevant.  I don't have to ask whether hunting deer with a burrito works as well as hunting with a rifle because hunting with a burrito clearly doesn't work to begin with.  Well, unless the deer just found a stand of mary jane.

And if you had to waterboard KSM over a hundred and eighty times, then I have to think that even the guys doing it didn't trust the answers he was giving.  You'd think that he would have told them everything he knew down to the size of his mothers dick sometime before they hit triple digits.
 
2014-04-06 05:01:47 PM  
Wow.  One sentence in, and I actually said, out loud, "oh, go fark yourself."

That's a record.
 
2014-04-06 05:02:11 PM  

namatad: I dont know this guy, but I would bet his life that he is a lying piece of shiat and should be water-boarded until he tells the truth.
Because we KNOW that water-boarding works!!


That's not how torture works.

He provides all sorts of information.  You verify what is real and what is whaargarble.  Then repeat.  Sort of how a truth detector works.  You don't expect an entire confession, only bits and pieces of verifiable information.
 
2014-04-06 05:02:22 PM  

clowncar on fire: Karac: clowncar on fire: Martian_Astronomer: Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.

The threat of torture works.  That's how we separate the men from the pussies.

Simply implying that torture may be part of our inventory to extract information may be enough to make a lot of the "enemy" talk.  If they know that torture is absolutely forbidden and that it would be condoned under no circumstances would only offer comfort to the enemy.  Remember the first Iraqi war? We were overwhelmed with prisoners looking for a hot meal and a place to sleep.  In exchange all they had to do was put down their arms (if they had any) and come along peacefully.

Those guys surrendered a decade before we started torturing people.  They surrendered instead of fighting to the last man because they knew we wouldn't hurt them.

The best advertisement Al Queda ever produced was pictures of American soldiers mistreating prisoners in Abu Ghraid and Bush administration officials defending the use of torture.  Nothing they could accuse the US of doing was as bad as what we freely admitted to.

You captured one terrorist and tortured him.  Congratulations, you'll hold him in prison without trial for the rest of his life.  That's one guy who'll never kill another American.  Unfortunately, you also just convinced his brothers, sons, cousins, and neighbors - who probably didn't like the asshole anyway - to take up arms themselves.

If we are torturing people to get "fresh" information- then (without giving them a hold out date) after six months that would appear to be useless information provided unless it was to resolve a past issue that they were dirrectly involved with.  Trying to get fresh information ten years later would definitely be wrong on our part.

I don't have a problem with the implied threat of torture on a new prisoner although torturing with the possibility of death resulting is over the line.


The problem is- every time we (the USA) tortures we raise the probability of death and/or torture for our citizens, especially servicemen.
 
2014-04-06 05:03:33 PM  

clowncar on fire: red5ish: "The report exposes brutality that stands in stark contrast to our values as a nation. It chronicles a stain on our history that must never again be allowed to happen."  Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-Calif.)

Duh.  that's what torture is all about; de-valuing your life unless you cooperate.


Then why don't we just rape the detainees?
 
2014-04-06 05:05:47 PM  

smellysocksnshoes: On 9/11 the terrorists won. It was not the planes, the deaths, the buildings, or the pride. The terrorists won because we became like them. I am guilty of finding Gitmo, extra ordinary rendition, unprovoked war on an inept and broken dictator, drone strikes, and yes, torture acceptable. Many Americans still find these things just fine even after seeing that whether or not they are successful they are wrong. It is a shorter step to extend these things to our own citizen than the steps that led to them in the first place.

And yes, both sides are bad on all these issues.


Except for the fact that none of it is new, only the technology. We've used extraordinary intelligence gathering techniques in every conflict. Anyone who thinks the world somehow saw us as the singular enlightened nation in the entirety of human history that suddenly betrayed it's principles, drank too much "Merica Fark Yea" koolaid.

/nobody is truly surprised or dissapointed except self-deluded Americans.
 
2014-04-06 05:05:59 PM  
FTFA: "I was responsible for administering it, and I know that it produced critical intelligence that helped decimate al-Qaeda and save American lives. "

Umm, about that...
 
2014-04-06 05:09:47 PM  

Damnhippyfreak: clowncar on fire: Martian_Astronomer: Torture works sometimes. We still shouldn't torture.

The threat of torture works.  That's how we separate the men from the pussies.

Simply implying that torture may be part of our inventory to extract information may be enough to make a lot of the "enemy" talk.  If they know that torture is absolutely forbidden and that it would be condoned under no circumstances would only offer comfort to the enemy.  Remember the first Iraqi war? We were overwhelmed with prisoners looking for a hot meal and a place to sleep.  In exchange all they had to do was put down their arms (if they had any) and come along peacefully.

This seems self-contradictory. Wouldn't not torturing prisoners encourage those surrendering soldiers that you use as an example. Isn't a "hot meal and a place to sleep" an example of "comfort to the enemy" that you're arguing againt?


My argument is that when the enemy feels safe in your hold, their not going to worry too much about having to provide "hard" information about future plans.  They know they will be cared fore, no threat to their lives.  FWIW, we did learn a lot about past mistakes the enemy made- which we freely shared so they were not going to make those errors again-- from the prisoners we took the first go around.  Namely, don't leave your forward guard without communication or supplies.
 
2014-04-06 05:10:55 PM  

clowncar on fire: namatad: I dont know this guy, but I would bet his life that he is a lying piece of shiat and should be water-boarded until he tells the truth.
Because we KNOW that water-boarding works!!

That's not how torture works.

He provides all sorts of information.  You verify what is real and what is whaargarble.  Then repeat.  Sort of how a truth detector works.  You don't expect an entire confession, only bits and pieces of verifiable information.


You're one of the best trolls I've ever seen.  Truly the genuine article.
 
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