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(Townhall)   Pope Francis: "No, I am not a Communist. I believe that the poor are the center of the Gospel of Jesus." Of course, that's just what a dirty, sneaky, hippie Commie mole would say   (townhall.com) divider line 72
    More: Scary, Gospel of Jesus, pope, gospels, communists, social exclusion, apostolic exhortation  
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5026 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Apr 2014 at 5:42 PM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-05 04:00:02 PM
16 votes:
I love how "conservatives" are rejecting both the President of the United States and the Pope and embracing the President of Russia.

We're through the derpy glass here, people.
2014-04-05 05:55:44 PM
13 votes:
Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-
img.fark.net
2014-04-05 04:19:26 PM
12 votes:
It's ridiculous that anyone that comes out to say that "Hey, umm maybe there are a bunch of flaws in capitalism that we need to shore up so it works better" that the instantaneous response is to call them a commie socialist totalitarian.

The Pope's continued message should be, capitalism is a tool to use in the economy to increase the quality of life for all, however by itself it's not a perfect system. We can do better.
2014-04-05 04:57:02 PM
8 votes:

jake_lex: I love how "conservatives" are rejecting both the President of the United States and the Pope and embracing the President of Russia.

We're through the derpy glass here, people.




Not at all. Today's republicans are fascist. Today's democrats are conservatives. There are no liberals.
2014-04-05 06:04:55 PM
7 votes:

Pattuq: The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.


Both capitalism and communism are unsustainable in a modern information age, where the majority of the population can be easily educated to the abuses and fallacies of both pure systems.

The real solution lies in the middle, namely with regulated freedom of business, and social democratic policies which provide support structures for the poor, needy, and ill to prevent from creating a continual lower poverty-ridden class.
2014-04-05 06:18:18 PM
5 votes:

MayoSlather: It's ridiculous that anyone that comes out to say that "Hey, umm maybe there are a bunch of flaws in capitalism that we need to shore up so it works better" that the instantaneous response is to call them a commie socialist totalitarian.

The Pope's continued message should be, capitalism is a tool to use in the economy to increase the quality of life for all, however by itself it's not a perfect system. We can do better.


And the rich right don't want true capitalism. They want state to fund the risk while they reap the rewards.
2014-04-05 05:41:19 PM
5 votes:
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist."

- Hélder Câmara
2014-04-05 05:22:48 PM
5 votes:
FTFA: One need not be a communist to care passionately for the poor. In the same way that one need not be a communist to criticize certain elements of an economic system that can at times lead to inequities and social exclusion.

While certainly Pope Francis has been the target of reactionary economic criticism, the actual linked article is hardly critical of him. In fact, this is probably by far the most nuanced article I've seen on Townhall since...well forever. The author certainly accepts the role of the Gospel in uplifting the poor. You know, that whole 'Sermon On The Mount/Gospel of Matthew' thing.
2014-04-05 05:09:14 PM
5 votes:
Sad that he actually has to say that. That people's hearts are so hardened to the actual words of the Bible is dissappointing to see.
2014-04-05 06:41:49 PM
4 votes:

Pattuq: The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas. There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.


Capitalism can easily benefit the wider population, so long as it is understood that the system must invest in the improvement of all of the people and not just those at the top.

The problem today is that we have a capitalistic economy with an oligarchy.  Consolidation of power and capital in the hands of the few undermines the strength of the overall economy and leads to corruption of the government.  It is not a sustainable long term situation for a number of reasons, with revolution being one of the worst of them, economic stagnation being one of the most likely.
2014-04-05 06:15:40 PM
4 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.


Well it doesn't really qualify the notion with a better/best concept, but government tax dollars are a fine way to do it (food stamps, public schools, medi-care. section 8, etc, etc.), no? In my mind that's a prefered use of tax dollars over mega-wars and corporate subsidies. It also assumes that one pays taxes.

 I live in a crappy neighborhood in Jersey City/NYC. I have direct access to quite a few poor folk. I give a buck or two here and there to those who ask- but I'm not thinking that it's an alternative to gov't funded programs. Why not both?
2014-04-05 06:10:34 PM
4 votes:

hardinparamedic: Pattuq: The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

Both capitalism and communism are unsustainable in a modern information age, where the majority of the population can be easily educated to the abuses and fallacies of both pure systems.

The real solution lies in the middle, namely with regulated freedom of business, and social democratic policies which provide support structures for the poor, needy, and ill to prevent from creating a continual lower poverty-ridden class.


Thanks to the internet many many many people have woken up that fact - we are getting screwed - and what's worse, on purpose. "The Man" is currently working very hard to make sure nothing changes or at least gets worse before it gets better, and boy is it working in the US.
2014-04-05 05:53:54 PM
4 votes:
Communism is forced by the boot of the government. If a person decides to give to charity, volunteer at a soup kitchen or help the poor on their own accord. That is not communism, that is just being a good charitable being. Pope Francis seems to promote helping the poor any way his church can and he preaches this, that is not communism, that is just being a good Pope.

That is the way I see it.
2014-04-05 05:53:39 PM
4 votes:

jake_lex: I love how "conservatives" are rejecting both the President of the United States and the Pope and embracing the President of Russia.

We're through the derpy glass here, people.


Because "conservatives" are "oligarch-supporting fascists", not "patriots", "Christians", "the moral majority", or any other self-applied tag they choose. Most of them follow God because they believe that everyone who doesn't think like they do will be smited by the Almighty Ruler - and, of course, that's why they support anyone willing to demonstrate similar behavior here on Earth, too.

The poor? The poor clearly don't think like they do - otherwise, God would've rewarded them for their righteousness. The rich are, clearly, God's anointed, and so should be emulated, no matter how selfish, banal, or just plain evil their actions.
2014-04-05 05:19:04 PM
4 votes:
Sounds like something a long-haired Middle Easterner who's gives away free healthcare would say
2014-04-05 07:00:13 PM
3 votes:

anuran: Dinjiin: Pattuq: The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas. There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

Capitalism can easily benefit the wider population, so long as it is understood that the system must invest in the improvement of all of the people and not just those at the top.

The problem today is that we have a capitalistic economy with an oligarchy.  Consolidation of power and capital in the hands of the few undermines the strength of the overall economy and leads to corruption of the government.  It is not a sustainable long term situation for a number of reasons, with revolution being one of the worst of them, economic stagnation being one of the most likely.

Mmmm, the problem is that an economy run for the benefit of all the people, not just those at the top is most of the textbook definition of Socialism. And Socialism is a dirty word to Americans. The natural tendency is for Capitalism to concentrate wealth and income in the hands of ever-fewer people. You end up with a tiny number of oligarchs who have almost everything, a small professional class which is paid reasonably well and the vast majority gets the "Natural Wage" which means just enough to buy the bare minimum of calories needed to work. That's dead-classic textbook economics.


I think you will find more and more people more open to that ideal if the current trends continue. We shouldn't have to force companies to care about their employees and pay decent wages. We shouldn't have to force bankers to stop making extremely risky bets that wont hurt themselves but the people that trusted them with the money. But as we continue to see we can't trust people to treat their employees and customers fairly so we have to force them to do it or have the government do it instead. And so I do expect the country as a whole to continue to move in that direction.
2014-04-05 06:36:31 PM
3 votes:

anuran: DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.

Giving it to the Church doesn't work. Almost all the churches are in debt or losing money.
Giving it to private charities helps a tiny bit. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to need.
The Free Market wants people on the ragged edge of starvation because that keeps costs low and means more money can get transferred to corporate pockets.
No matter how much the gibbertarians and teabagging koch-whores and bootstrappy Real Merkins screech about it government is the only solution here.


And, as a bonus, it means the workers can't quit if they're mistreated, unless they want to risk starvation. Which is why the fascists want to dismantle the social safety nets, to increase that risk and make workers even MORE afraid to leave.

A hungry, desperate, uneducated populace is the GOFP's dream. They want nothing less than to turn America into China or India, for the Glory of the Almighty Job Creators.
2014-04-05 06:33:32 PM
3 votes:

jonnya: fusillade762: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-
[img.fark.net image 526x526]

Not Carter. Someone named John Fugelsang, apparently.

Good to know. I had never heard the quote until this morning. I didn't realize it was a 'thing'. I wonder how Carter came to get credit for it? It's funny because when I first read it I was thinking that it sounded a little uppity for Carter. I was hoping he was getting a little bit more surly in his old age. Guess not...

Musings aside- the sentiment remains.


I thought it sounded a bit like this:

tjdraper.com
2014-04-05 06:15:22 PM
3 votes:

SilentStrider: Sad that he actually has to say that. That people's hearts are so hardened to the actual words of the Bible is dissappointing to see.


The average rightard has serious doubts about scriptures that speak about things like caring for those in poverty, or that the rich man has as much chance in getting into Heaven as a camel does getting through the eye of a needle. That's why they're just chucking King James out and starting work on their own Bible, which will have none of that kindness or compassion crap that rightards hate so much.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible

"And the Lord Thy GAWD sayeth, "Torment thine poor with great glee, for they are not of my Kingdom. To give them kindness is to invoke my wrath!" -- Limbaugh 3:16

www.spoonyexperiment.com
2014-04-05 05:39:13 PM
3 votes:
critics of his pontificate have seized upon remarks he made regarding trickledown economics. In his view, he wrote, the successful implementation of such theories "have never been confirmed by the facts." Of course, many conservatives scoffed at this assertion, some of whom accused him outright of being a socialist or a communist

Pointing out that supply-side economics doesn't work (well, except for the already-rich that it was designed to make richer) makes you a communist? Please point to the people who claimed this so that I might punch them in the nuts.
2014-04-05 05:24:42 PM
3 votes:

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Sounds like something a long-haired Middle Easterner who's gives away free healthcare would say


4.bp.blogspot.com

/oblig
2014-04-05 07:59:48 PM
2 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.


If private charities did a better job, then government wouldn't have to step in to protect the general welfare of its populace.
2014-04-05 07:05:19 PM
2 votes:

ultramarinblaa: Warning: Reading the townhall comment will make you loose at least 10 iq points. Those is some serious teabagging delusions.


Christ almighty, my head hurts. I got maybe halfway down the page of comments before parts of my brain wanted to rebel so that I was tasting light and touching sound. It got particularly bad when one commenter called someone [paraphrased] a typical liberal-communist homosexual. And upon reading that all liberals are always in lockstep at all times on all issues, well...I almost punched my monitor.

And I lost fifty IQ points, thanks.
2014-04-05 06:38:03 PM
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
2014-04-05 06:35:57 PM
2 votes:
I think the biggest problem with capitalism is that its only focus is on getting more money in less time. It disregards any sense of moderation or greater good, as these are the antithesis of capitalism.

A couple of examples:

1. Looking at the oil sands in northern Alberta, one could make an argument to slow down production to damage the environment less. However the laws of capitalism are all about getting ahead and maximizing profits. Therefore no such option is considered.

2. In Toronto we are in the midst of a condo boom. We are seeing buildings built all over the place in record time. However besides the fact that there are concerns that the current infrastructure cannot handle the influx of people and density, the only thing keeping their prices high is market speculation. Most people who live in these condos rent, and will likely move to a house in a new subdivision when they are ready to settle down. Sure we could be building modest medium sized urban dwellings, places where community can foster and people can be happy to call their home, but not as much money in that! Have to build an 80 story tower in place of these theaters and restaurants.
2014-04-05 06:33:19 PM
2 votes:

hardinparamedic: Pattuq: The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

Both capitalism and communism are unsustainable in a modern information age, where the majority of the population can be easily educated to the abuses and fallacies of both pure systems.

The real solution lies in the middle, namely with regulated freedom of business, and social democratic policies which provide support structures for the poor, needy, and ill to prevent from creating a continual lower poverty-ridden class.


Nice fantasy. In today's world democracy itself has become a dirty word. Organized Labor has been destroyed and is fast on its way to becoming illegal. Dissent is treated as terrorism. We have a degree of wealth and income inequality higher than the Gilded Age. A majority on the edge of starvation and happy to get anything is the new norm, and a huge, efficient propaganda machine ensures it will remain that way. The global race to the bottom is enforced through "Free Trade" pacts which make legal remedies quite literally illegal and impossible.

The "Loony Left" of today is the moderate Republican of thirty years ago. Nixon is a hippy-dippy Radical Socialist by today's standards. Eisenhower would be a Commie. And Joseph McCarthy would be the "New Center".

So good luck with any of it in our lifetime.
2014-04-05 06:27:45 PM
2 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.


Find the data that shows any private endeavor in the US is better than the government at it.  We'll wait.
2014-04-05 06:26:35 PM
2 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.


Giving it to the Church doesn't work. Almost all the churches are in debt or losing money.
Giving it to private charities helps a tiny bit. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to need.
The Free Market wants people on the ragged edge of starvation because that keeps costs low and means more money can get transferred to corporate pockets.
No matter how much the gibbertarians and teabagging koch-whores and bootstrappy Real Merkins screech about it government is the only solution here.
2014-04-05 06:21:07 PM
2 votes:

FunkOut: Frank N Stein: FunkOut: Sgt Otter: "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist."

- Hélder Câmara

Without poor people around, how will we get that warm fuzzy feeling in our heart about doing the right thing as we toss that dented outdated generic can of cream of lima bean soup into the food bank donation bin?

Yeah fark charity, right?

The point, she is flying over your head like an albatross.


No I totally get it. According to this thread, the Right systematically ignores the plight of the poor. And according to you, they also enjoy donating food to the poor. Air tight logic

/also, the albatross is suppose to hang around the neck. Get your literary devices right.
2014-04-05 06:15:28 PM
2 votes:

jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-
[img.fark.net image 526x526]


Not Carter. Someone named John Fugelsang, apparently.
2014-04-05 06:11:14 PM
2 votes:

SilentStrider: Sad that he actually has to say that. That people's hearts are so hardened to the actual words of the Bible is dissappointing to see.


I doubt if many Christians have actually read the Bible, and of those that have few of them have tried to actually think about the contents.  Most Christians are so because their parents and communities said "you are a Christian," and they replied "ok!"  Their belief comes from years of older, wiser-seeming people telling them that this thing must be.  The only information they receive about the Bible and God is tenth-generation hand-me-down knowledge from their parents and sermons from a minister (if they even go to church at all).  The sermons have no context for them because they are unfamiliar with the source material.  The end result is people who claim they are Christian, believe strongly they are better than those who don't say the same, but have no idea what a Christian actually is.

Anyone who breaks the commandments and commits sins but insists they are still a Christian has no idea what they're talking about.  The religion doesn't work that way - you can't selectively follow the parts that sound nice.  It's all or nothing.
2014-04-05 06:04:53 PM
2 votes:

Pattuq: The only way  Capitalism Communism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.


Even more true and practiced a lot more frequently..
2014-04-05 06:02:19 PM
2 votes:

MayoSlather: It's ridiculous that anyone that comes out to say that "Hey, umm maybe there are a bunch of flaws in capitalism that we need to shore up so it works better" that the instantaneous response is to call them a commie socialist totalitarian.

The Pope's continued message should be, capitalism is a tool to use in the economy to increase the quality of life for all, however by itself it's not a perfect system. We can do better.


The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

The instant "commie!!!!" response comes from the cold war, when people were brainwashed into hating and fearing communism and communists (and anything even remotely socialist, for that matter).  Most of the knee-jerk reactionists were either brought up then, or taught to believe the same things as their parents.
2014-04-05 05:59:13 PM
2 votes:

jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-


That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.
2014-04-05 05:53:55 PM
2 votes:

AgentPothead: Today's republicans would literally have their minds explode if they knew what "republican" meant 100 years ago.
[agentpothead.com image 400x295]


Don't worry. The Southern Strategy Never happened in the minds of modern conservatives.
2014-04-06 10:31:31 AM
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: FunkOut: Frank N Stein: FunkOut: Sgt Otter: "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist."

- Hélder Câmara

Without poor people around, how will we get that warm fuzzy feeling in our heart about doing the right thing as we toss that dented outdated generic can of cream of lima bean soup into the food bank donation bin?

Yeah fark charity, right?

The point, she is flying over your head like an albatross.

No I totally get it. According to this thread, the Right systematically ignores the plight of the poor. And according to you, they also enjoy donating food to the poor. Air tight logic

/also, the albatross is suppose to hang around the neck. Get your literary devices right.


Because if you're really, really rich, there's tax incentives to donate.  For example, if you owe $250,000 in taxes, you can either pay it or donate 250K to a charity and get that back in the form of a 250K tax break.  While either way the money is paid, the latter way allows the rich person to say "I donated to the poor.  I'm a good person."  Just watch "The Apprentice", that's basically Trump's way of making money while lowering the tax bill at the same time.

Now you should understand that air tight logic.  It make's perfect sense if you know how the system actually works.

/knows rich people that do this
//their taxes would be lower if the employees made more and them less
///would rather make more than the employees have a better way of life
//and that's the dark side of capitalism
/fark you, I'm getting mine
2014-04-06 09:07:02 AM
1 votes:

cman: hinten: Hiall, is this the thread were several people claim China and various other Eastern bloc countries are communist? That's great, we haven't seen that for a while.

Well, considering Communism didnt work, its good that they abandoned it


Only a Republican would call the Chinese system communist.
2014-04-06 08:03:19 AM
1 votes:

jake_lex: I love how "conservatives" are rejecting both the President of the United States and the Pope and embracing the President of Russia.

We're through the derpy glass here, people.


From a historical perspective, it really is astonishing that the American right was able to seize the mantle of patriotism in the latter 20th century. In this country, it has always been the political right which has seethed with hatred for America, its Constitution, and its core values. From the beginning, the anti-constitution doctrines of nullification and secession were advanced by those  infuriated that the Constitution created an effective central government with the power to govern a nation.

These early anti-American doctrines culminated in the War of Southern Treason, when the proto-conservative movement embodied in the CSA's push for an intercontinental slave empire declared with a resounding voice, "you're not the boss of me! You can' make me do anything. Lalalalalalala!" These puerile Traitor-Slavers were quickly and correctly quashed; the only mistake of the era being America's failure to exact severe punitive measures against those who rose in treason to destroy the republic.

American southerners are, when you strip away all the congenialities, barbarians. They understand only strength; and they interpret all efforts to compromise and grant mercy as weakness. So when, for example, the United States failed to hang en masse every scum Confederate legislator who voted to destroy the republic because he was mad about the outcome of an election, the southern barbarian said to himself "Well, we gotz ta keep tellin' ar yunginz 'bout da War o' Northern Greshun. I don't care what that we started it n'all. We kin take theze yankees down--see how weak they iz?"

As a consequence, instead of being quashed with the CSA's dreams of Evil Empire, this sentiment of "America is evil" has lingered among the far-right wing of our population. Just something to keep in mind when it comes time to decide how punitively we should act against the "New Confederacy."
2014-04-06 05:57:40 AM
1 votes:
If American christians and evangelicals weren't just a hodge podge collection of classical heresies they'd be less shocked by this sort of thing.

Donatism to the Prosperity Gospel, and everything in between. Heck, you want understand their world view - just wiki list of catholic heresies and boom. Pretty much a list of what the current right wing believes.
2014-04-06 04:52:08 AM
1 votes:

CruJones: My grandparents are uber-catholic, and very conservative, and they love this pope.


I'm related to some übercatholics, they generally groove on every pope.  It's the marginal catholics that get picky.
2014-04-05 11:21:54 PM
1 votes:

iaazathot: DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.

Find the data that shows any private endeavor in the US is better than the government at it.  We'll wait.


The data on the number of elderly living in poverty pre and post social security are rather convincing. Centuries of charity vs a few years of gov spending -
No contest.

Charity loses.
2014-04-05 11:16:06 PM
1 votes:

anfrind: wax_on: I clicked a townhall link just to read the comments. Can't wait to dig into the derp.

You were warned.


Wow. It's like they speak another language. Kind of like how communities that are isolated tend to have tongues that splinter off from the main language, including their own syntax and vocabulary. It seems like that's happening. These people spend so much time in their conservative echo chamber that their minds have evolved to not include the language of rational thought. Anyone who interjects with a comment that reflects an opposing point of view, no matter how rational ("maybe the Pope isn't a communist, maybe he just believes that it's everyone's responsibility to care for the poor, regardless of whether the method is by government or personal support.") they are instantly shouted down in a hail of hateful comments.

Looking at the moderate/liberal echo chamber that is the Fark politics tab I don't think it's like that. It seems like we at least try to engage our right-tards and get them to answer meaningful questions (which of course they seldom do.) Of course I might be wrong and just a product of my own bubble.
2014-04-05 10:01:54 PM
1 votes:

Truther: jake_lex: I love how "conservatives" are rejecting both the President of the United States and the Pope and embracing the President of Russia.

We're through the derpy glass here, people.


How on earth do you get "conservatives are rejecting... the Pope" out of this article?


The last six months of Fox News and AM talk radio?
2014-04-05 09:09:51 PM
1 votes:

jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-
[img.fark.net image 526x526]


Funny how Carter was supposedly so religious but apparently knows nothing about the Bible. I'm pretty sure Jesus never said "Thou shalt be forced by thine government to hand over ye money so that it may be distributed as they government sees fit. So...forget all that charity stuff. Just let them do it for you." And yeah yeah "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and blah blah blah...that really part of the issue. Carter's just a moron for making stupid assumptions.
2014-04-05 08:08:25 PM
1 votes:

anuran: Mmmm, the problem is that an economy run for the benefit of all the people, not just those at the top is most of the textbook definition of Socialism


The United States is already a socialist nation.  Once you have any organization, public or private, that utilizes social ownership, you're it.  Cooperatives, mutuals, unions and government corps are all socialist organizations.  It just comes down to how large a part those organizations play in the overall economy.

I think what people really mean to say is that it requires us to be a welfare state, which we are.  How much of an investment in the well being and future of our people does the government play?  It doesn't just mean welfare checks to single unemployed women.  It is the entire system of social safety and education that a country's government is willing to provide.

Having a large number of state owned corporations is one thing.  Offering people food, housing, medicine and an education is another.  The latter, that's classic welfare state.  To some degree, is what is needed to maintain a robust capitalist society.

Of course, the devil is in the details.  You want a safety trampoline, not a safety hammock as your social net.  You want to provide a ladder for people to climb, not an elevator that requires no skill or effort.  You have to keep cronyism, corruption and mission creep in check.  Otherwise, the overhead reduces the efficiency and competitiveness of your economy, which leads to a downward spiral regarding unemployment.

People keep screaming socialism and welfare.  It is already around us.  From the Bank of North Dakota to Obamacare to the US Post Office.  The real question is, what is the right amount and kind of socialism and welfare, and how to we implement it so that is works best for all of us?
2014-04-05 07:29:00 PM
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: Agent Smiths Laugh: AgentPothead: Today's republicans would literally have their minds explode if they knew what "republican" meant 100 years ago.
[agentpothead.com image 400x295]

Hell, their heads would explode if they actually had a clue what communism and socialism actually meant.

But that would take education and education is taboo unless it's Jesus approved.

Communism is a political branch of Marxism that wishes to enact socialism, a socio-economic system in which the means of production is controlled by the collective.

Now shut up.


No.
2014-04-05 07:16:14 PM
1 votes:
The conservative commentators posting in that article are all from my hometown and post in my hometown newspaper. Has to be so, its the same dumb shiat vomited up.

I like this pope.
2014-04-05 06:59:31 PM
1 votes:
Jesus was a socialist, not a communist.

He was also very incredibly awesome.

scratch that.

He Is very incredibly awesome.
2014-04-05 06:59:27 PM
1 votes:

LordJiro: FLMountainMan: Pattuq: The only way  Capitalism Communism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

Even more true and practiced a lot more frequently..

Unchecked capitalism has done just as much damage to the world, if not more, than Communism.


Tell that to more than 100 million of their own dead at the hands of their governments, or the massive environmental damage in the communist states, which exceeded anything the capitalist state ever approached, or the millions more dispossessed, disenfranchised, and the billions that were outright enslaved. Nevermind the art and sciences that were oppressed because they didn't meet the party line. Capitalism has a lot of problems, as do mixed economies, but communism has caused more long-lasting despair.

/In 1990, my father helped establish this, with Senator Dietl, amongst others  https://feg.porto.ucp.pt/eetue/pageShow.aspx?IDPagina=1.2.4 .
/In 1991, we gave a water purifier to a friend/colleagues of my father in Warsaw. They sent it back within a week. The company responded that it "wasn't for industrial use". This was in a (relative) nice block of flats.
/In 1992, in Lodz, I saw a river sludging behind a palace(? looked like it, maybe something else) that had been converted into a museum. There had been workers cleaning it non-stop since '89. The people dredging it that day still had to swap boots every few hours while standing on it. I was told that this was a drastic improvement.
/Also in 1992, in Lodz, we cooled our sodas on the window sill. Within six hours, they would have at least a millimeter of soot on them. Sen. Dietl said that we should just wipe it off and it would be fine.
/That was a fun Senior Spring Break trip.
/1996, in Brno, Czech, my co-professor (first college teaching job) said "We were never bombed by the Nazis, but we had forty years of bombing under the Soviets" referring to the massive environmental damage. Brno was in the process of being cleaned/repaired at the time. The buildings that had been cleaned were bright, colorful, pretty interbellum structures. The ones that had yet to be cleaned were dark grey and caked with soot. There was a slowly moving line of color scrounging out the filth.
/Oh, and I found out that a quarter of Brno had been evacuated under the Soviets because they didn't want ethnic Germans living there. So the nicer houses were given to the Soviet occupation and the rest were let to go fallow. For forty years.
/Family is from inner city Detroit - this was much, much worse.
2014-04-05 06:57:49 PM
1 votes:

anuran: GDubDub: I very much hope this Pope prepares his own tea.

Actually, he did while he was Archbishop. And he doesn't live in the Papal Palace. He's in a simple apartment in a guest building in Vatican City.


I very much know he practices the ideals of Christianity. I'm just worried about forces in the church that are very much unhappy about their mansions being taken away.

He told the mob to knock that shiat off. He told world leaders to knock that shiat off. He told the 1% to knock it the Fark off.

I hope he lives a very long time.
2014-04-05 06:53:58 PM
1 votes:

anuran: Mmmm, the problem is that an economy run for the benefit of all the people, not just those at the top is most of the textbook definition of Socialism. And Socialism is a dirty word to Americans. The natural tendency is for Capitalism to concentrate wealth and income in the hands of ever-fewer people. You end up with a tiny number of oligarchs who have almost everything, a small professional class which is paid reasonably well and the vast majority gets the "Natural Wage" which means just enough to buy the bare minimum of calories needed to work. That's dead-classic textbook economics.


There is no natural tendency.  That's like saying the natural tendency of Communism is to oppress everyone but the ruling class.
2014-04-05 06:46:48 PM
1 votes:

Dinjiin: Pattuq: The only way Capitalism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas. There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

Capitalism can easily benefit the wider population, so long as it is understood that the system must invest in the improvement of all of the people and not just those at the top.

The problem today is that we have a capitalistic economy with an oligarchy.  Consolidation of power and capital in the hands of the few undermines the strength of the overall economy and leads to corruption of the government.  It is not a sustainable long term situation for a number of reasons, with revolution being one of the worst of them, economic stagnation being one of the most likely.


Mmmm, the problem is that an economy run for the benefit of all the people, not just those at the top is most of the textbook definition of Socialism. And Socialism is a dirty word to Americans. The natural tendency is for Capitalism to concentrate wealth and income in the hands of ever-fewer people. You end up with a tiny number of oligarchs who have almost everything, a small professional class which is paid reasonably well and the vast majority gets the "Natural Wage" which means just enough to buy the bare minimum of calories needed to work. That's dead-classic textbook economics.
2014-04-05 06:44:42 PM
1 votes:
img.fark.net
2014-04-05 06:41:30 PM
1 votes:
Pattuq:

Anyone who breaks the commandments and commits sins but insists they are still a Christian has no idea what they're talking about.  The religion doesn't work that way - you can't selectively follow the parts that sound nice.  It's all or nothing.

Whoever told you that is a lying sack of shiat or someone who knows nothing about Christianity, or, indeed, anything about religion at all. I cannot express the level of contempt that I have for the idea that all must conform to a single source and single interpretation. That is not the way the Bible was compiled, neither the original nor the sequel, nor is it the way any religion works. The concept that there is only one hyper-specific and exclusionary set of documents and/or beliefs to salvation or utopia or whatever you want to call it is the domain of the cult, not a religion.

Religious beliefs are always mix-and-match, even among co-religionists, even among members of the same sects or sub-sects. Even believers in things that are anathema to the religion in general (such as Catholics arguing inerrancy of the Bible or for mortification or Abrahamics arguing against literacy, logic, and reason) can share the same faith. Even in more conservative sects of different faiths, there is always debate. Try getting three hassidic rabbis together without them arguing non-stop, for example. It's only the most pernicious belief systems where one idea must be hewn to and one system agreed to without open discussion or dissent.

/Sounds like Communism, actually.
//The Maoist branch specifically, but also the Stalinist variants as well.
2014-04-05 06:36:33 PM
1 votes:

GDubDub: I very much hope this Pope prepares his own tea.


Actually, he did while he was Archbishop. And he doesn't live in the Papal Palace. He's in a simple apartment in a guest building in Vatican City.
2014-04-05 06:35:15 PM
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: Pattuq: SilentStrider: Sad that he actually has to say that. That people's hearts are so hardened to the actual words of the Bible is dissappointing to see.

I doubt if many Christians have actually read the Bible, and of those that have few of them have tried to actually think about the contents.  Most Christians are so because their parents and communities said "you are a Christian," and they replied "ok!"  Their belief comes from years of older, wiser-seeming people telling them that this thing must be.  The only information they receive about the Bible and God is tenth-generation hand-me-down knowledge from their parents and sermons from a minister (if they even go to church at all).  The sermons have no context for them because they are unfamiliar with the source material.  The end result is people who claim they are Christian, believe strongly they are better than those who don't say the same, but have no idea what a Christian actually is.

Anyone who breaks the commandments and commits sins but insists they are still a Christian has no idea what they're talking about.  The religion doesn't work that way - you can't selectively follow the parts that sound nice.  It's all or nothing.

St Augustine thinks you're full of shiat


My Dad became "Born Again" when I was about 10, my brother was 4. We were thrust into a whole new belief system and church out of nowhere. My brother went with it and became a fine upstanding evangelical christian, I on the other hand, cannot stand organized religion and have panic attacks when I have to be in a church.
2014-04-05 06:26:28 PM
1 votes:

FLMountainMan: Pattuq: The only way  Capitalism Communism is sustainable is if you immediately shut up anyone with other ideas.  There's a lot of propaganda dedicated to making sure everyone supports it, even though capitalism only benefits a small percentage of the population.

Even more true and practiced a lot more frequently..


Unchecked capitalism has done just as much damage to the world, if not more, than Communism.
2014-04-05 06:25:20 PM
1 votes:
I very much hope this Pope prepares his own tea.
2014-04-05 06:23:17 PM
1 votes:

fusillade762: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-
[img.fark.net image 526x526]

Not Carter. Someone named John Fugelsang, apparently.


Good to know. I had never heard the quote until this morning. I didn't realize it was a 'thing'. I wonder how Carter came to get credit for it? It's funny because when I first read it I was thinking that it sounded a little uppity for Carter. I was hoping he was getting a little bit more surly in his old age. Guess not...


Musings aside- the sentiment remains.
2014-04-05 06:18:58 PM
1 votes:
My grandparents are uber-catholic, and very conservative, and they love this pope.
2014-04-05 06:16:36 PM
1 votes:

Frank N Stein: FunkOut: Sgt Otter: "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist."

- Hélder Câmara

Without poor people around, how will we get that warm fuzzy feeling in our heart about doing the right thing as we toss that dented outdated generic can of cream of lima bean soup into the food bank donation bin?

Yeah fark charity, right?


The point, she is flying over your head like an albatross.
2014-04-05 06:16:27 PM
1 votes:
Jesus is a communist. We read karl marx in catholic high school.
2014-04-05 06:10:59 PM
1 votes:

jake_lex: I love how "conservatives" are rejecting both the President of the United States and the Pope and embracing the President of Russia.

We're through the derpy glass here, people.


No. These republicans have always been in favor of oppressing human rights and tormenting the poor. It's that sadism & cowardice that's buried deep into their very DNA that makes them republicans.

Just watch what happens if Putin ever does something nice for poor people. The rightards will turn on him in a nanosecond.
2014-04-05 06:07:29 PM
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.


Got any better ideas?
2014-04-05 06:03:35 PM
1 votes:

DrewCurtisJr: jonnya: Semi relevant pic that a friend posted on Facebook this morning. I gave it a hearty 'like'-

That assumes you believe giving tax dollars to the government is the best way to help the poor.


Well insisting that they should be "bootstrappy" sure as hell isn't working.
2014-04-05 06:02:59 PM
1 votes:
My grandmother was very, very Catholic. She remembered when being Catholic was juuust a step above being from another race in her home town. She was devout, going to mass as often as possible (sometimes twice in a day). Yet, she was never as big a fan of some of the evils taking place in the church, nor the grandiose expenditures.

It's too bad she died a few years ago, because this likely would have been her favorite Pope.
2014-04-05 06:02:30 PM
1 votes:
Are there any Marxists of fark? If so could you answer this question: being dialectical-materialist based theory, what materal basis do Marxist have in believing that's there's a "class conscious" that will spur a worker's revolution?
2014-04-05 05:50:14 PM
1 votes:

MayoSlather: .....capitalism is a tool to use in the economy to increase the quality of life for all, however by itself it's not a perfect system. We can do better.


This, also corportations are a tool and not a person.
2014-04-05 05:46:17 PM
1 votes:
Today's republicans would literally have their minds explode if they knew what "republican" meant 100 years ago.
agentpothead.com
2014-04-05 05:04:55 PM
1 votes:
Communism consists way more than just a focus on the poor

The pope is no Communist. If he were he would be calling struggle against capitalists.
2014-04-05 04:59:43 PM
1 votes:
I love the Pope.
2014-04-05 04:57:20 PM
1 votes:

MayoSlather: The Pope's continued message should be, capitalism is a tool to use in the economy to increase the quality of life for all, however by itself it's not a perfect system. We can do better.


"Does not compute. Capitalism is a tool to control the proletariat while the rich get richer."
-- GOP
 
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