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(Bloomberg)   Moody's downgrades Ukraine bond rating from borscht to chicken consommé   (bloomberg.com) divider line 19
    More: Fail, debt rating, Moody, Ukraine, Russia, downgrade, trade restriction, Moody's Investors Service, economicses  
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321 clicks; posted to Business » on 05 Apr 2014 at 11:38 AM (15 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



19 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-04-05 10:11:35 AM
That's a pretty subtle FAIL. On the one hand, it could be direct, as in 'Ukraine's economy is failing'. On the other hand, it could be indirect, as in 'Moody's get a FAIL for kicking Ukraine when they're down'. Or it could be ironic, and imply both at the same time...
 
2014-04-05 11:46:43 AM
Sounds like an upgrade to me. I tried borscht once. Once.
 
2014-04-05 12:43:11 PM

dobro: Sounds like an upgrade to me. I tried borscht once. Once.


You have to grow up with it.  Thankfully I didn't.
 
2014-04-05 12:57:28 PM

2wolves: dobro: Sounds like an upgrade to me. I tried borscht once. Once.

You have to grow up with it.  Thankfully I didn't.


I did.  Best tasting food on the planet if done in a traditional polish style.  No meat, hot, served with sour cream, including dried wild mushroom dumplings.

MMMmmmmmm,,,smaczny

i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-05 01:20:33 PM

whistleridge: That's a pretty subtle FAIL. On the one hand, it could be direct, as in 'Ukraine's economy is failing'. On the other hand, it could be indirect, as in 'Moody's get a FAIL for kicking Ukraine when they're down'. Or it could be ironic, and imply both at the same time...




This makes no sense as the IMF will no doubt be stepping in to make sure Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank are fully covered. Default will never happen.
 
2014-04-05 02:58:35 PM

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: This makes no sense as the IMF will no doubt be stepping in to make sure Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank are fully covered. Default will never happen.


Why exactly? First of all, help from the IMF is dependent on some rather strict conditions. It's not certain that Ukrainian politicians will be able to meet them.

Second, serious shrinkage of Ukrainian economy is inevitable, for now. Considering that $1 costs 12 grivna now, compared to 8 grivna before the revolution, the dollar-denominated debt became that much harder to pay off. Add to that inevitable, even if possible short-term, losses for economy due to removal of some tariffs on European goods, and the possibility that Russia can wreak complete and utter havoc on Ukrainian part of the economy which works with Russia (and that's, like, A LOT), and it may very well be that even with IMF help there simply will not be enough $US in Ukraine's coffins to service the debt.
 
2014-04-05 03:00:15 PM
P.S. Oh, and borsch is pretty good. Unless, of course, done traditional Polish style... You know, that abomination without meat.

:)
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-05 03:51:47 PM
Can't they trade not blockading Crimea for cheap gas?
 
2014-04-05 03:56:24 PM
>>Can't they trade not blockading Crimea for cheap gas?<<

Oh, they've already traded not blockading Crimea for Putin not killing each and every single one of them... :) It's a joke, but "blockading Crimea" is a card you play only once.  Besides, Putin does not respond well for blackmail. Chances are, Putin will rather build another pipe from Kerch (that's, like, 6km under the sea or so) than be blackmailed.
 
2014-04-05 04:09:30 PM

Grahor: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: This makes no sense as the IMF will no doubt be stepping in to make sure Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank are fully covered. Default will never happen.

Why exactly? First of all, help from the IMF is dependent on some rather strict conditions. It's not certain that Ukrainian politicians will be able to meet them.

Second, serious shrinkage of Ukrainian economy is inevitable, for now. Considering that $1 costs 12 grivna now, compared to 8 grivna before the revolution, the dollar-denominated debt became that much harder to pay off. Add to that inevitable, even if possible short-term, losses for economy due to removal of some tariffs on European goods, and the possibility that Russia can wreak complete and utter havoc on Ukrainian part of the economy which works with Russia (and that's, like, A LOT), and it may very well be that even with IMF help there simply will not be enough $US in Ukraine's coffins to service the debt.


Yup. Plus, allegedly, the only European country more corrupt than Russia is Ukraine. The IMF might as well be flushing their money down a toilet. The kleptocratic culture there isn't going to change fast enough to get them out of debt trouble.
 
2014-04-05 04:27:53 PM

GoodHomer: Plus, allegedly, the only European country more corrupt than Russia is Ukraine.


If we are to believe Transparency International, yes.

GoodHomer: The kleptocratic culture there isn't going to change fast enough to get them out of debt trouble.


Every single presidential candidate in Ukraine right now is a former kleptocrat with 20 years of experience being corrupt under his belt. They all proclaim that they've changed their stripes, or whatever it is said about lepards, that the country is moving to a new path, et cetera, and I even think some of them are completely honest in that desire, but they have no idea how to do it. The only way to govern they know is trading in favors, which breeds corruption like mad.

The people are utterly serious in their desire to keep an eye on their government, but, again, how are they going to do it? The majority of the population have absolutely no freakin idea how to go about it. Give them a couple of scapegoats, blame everything on Russians and steal at will.

I think the smaller the country is, the easier it is to keep track of corruption for people. On the other hand, just being small doesn't make you corruptless - Moldova is small and yet still pretty corrupt, although less than Ukraine, if, again, transparency international is to be believed.

The undisputed champions of corruption in Ukraine are oligarchs, and now they have more power than ever.

*sigh*
 
2014-04-05 04:33:16 PM
P.S. The EU Association agreement provides some guidelines and measures for corruption fighting, so there is some hope in that, but I don't think it's going to be enough...
 
2014-04-05 06:19:01 PM

Grahor: TedCruz'sCrazyDad: This makes no sense as the IMF will no doubt be stepping in to make sure Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank are fully covered. Default will never happen.

Why exactly? First of all, help from the IMF is dependent on some rather strict conditions. It's not certain that Ukrainian politicians will be able to meet them.

Second, serious shrinkage of Ukrainian economy is inevitable, for now. Considering that $1 costs 12 grivna now, compared to 8 grivna before the revolution, the dollar-denominated debt became that much harder to pay off. Add to that inevitable, even if possible short-term, losses for economy due to removal of some tariffs on European goods, and the possibility that Russia can wreak complete and utter havoc on Ukrainian part of the economy which works with Russia (and that's, like, A LOT), and it may very well be that even with IMF help there simply will not be enough $US in Ukraine's coffins to service the debt.




It will be similar to the way it was handled in Ireland. The bonds will be paid and austerity will be imposed on the citizens and all national assets sold off to European investors.
 
2014-04-05 06:20:38 PM

Grahor: GoodHomer: Plus, allegedly, the only European country more corrupt than Russia is Ukraine. If we are to believe Transparency International, yes. GoodHomer: The kleptocratic culture there isn't going to change fast enough to get them out of debt trouble. Every single presidential candidate in Ukraine right now is a former kleptocrat with 20 years of experience being corrupt under his belt. They all proclaim that they've changed their stripes, or whatever it is said about lepards, that the country is moving to a new path, et cetera, and I even think some of them are completely honest in that desire, but they have no idea how to do it. The only way to govern they know is trading in favors, which breeds corruption like mad. The people are utterly serious in their desire to keep an eye on their government, but, again, how are they going to do it? The majority of the population have absolutely no freakin idea how to go about it. Give them a couple of scapegoats, blame everything on Russians and steal at will. I think the smaller the country is, the easier it is to keep track of corruption for people. On the other hand, just being small doesn't make you corruptless - Moldova is small and yet still pretty corrupt, although less than Ukraine, if, again, transparency international is to be believed. The undisputed champions of corruption in Ukraine are oligarchs, and now they have more power than ever. *sigh*


Not a single Eurobond has failed. Even the ones the Greeks are paying on. This will not be a time when it will happen.
 
2014-04-06 12:28:47 AM

Grahor: The undisputed champions of corruption in Ukraine are oligarchs, and now they have more power than ever.


That's true anywhere, though.
 
2014-04-06 05:17:57 AM

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Not a single Eurobond has failed. Even the ones the Greeks are paying on. This will not be a time when it will happen.


Errr... Aren't those Eurobonds guaranteed by European Union as a whole, and THUS are unable to fail? As far as I know, Ukraine does NOT have this type of Eurobonds. Ukrainian "Eurobonds" are a completely different animal - same name, but _absolutely_ not the same type - it's just a bond denominated in non-native to the country currency - thus "eurobond". In case of Ukraine, it's "eurodollar bond" and is NOT backed by the EU.
 
2014-04-06 03:45:17 PM
If you want a good borscht use oxtail or beef shank. It'll provide a more flavorful broth while being soft as pot roast after it's done simmering.
 
2014-04-06 03:53:09 PM
GoodHomer:
Yup. Plus, allegedly, the only European country more corrupt than Russia is Ukraine. The IMF might as well be flushing their money down a toilet. The kleptocratic culture there isn't going to change fast enough to get them out of debt trouble.

I find it kinda hard to feel sorry for people that live in a country where corruption is that systemic.

They're all involved in bribing, tax dodging and what not.

But alas, the EU, USA and the IMF is commited to saving their corrupt asses in order to not have Russia win this one.
 
2014-04-06 05:26:01 PM

spawn73: I find it kinda hard to feel sorry for people that live in a country where corruption is that systemic.


It's easy to be judgmental when you've grown up and live in paradise on Earth which is Denmark. :) Usually it's the consequence of people being extremely poor combined with the lack of civic consciousness and traditions of control of population over officials. Which is kind of the case in post-Soviet space. And Ukrainians are still Soviet people, bless their hearts.

Wild nineties were the time where honest person simply couldn't survive. I myself participated in all kinds of small-time frauds and general tiny background thievery to simply get something to eat. I am not proud of it, but neither I regret anything. My family have lived through it, lost only 2 uncles (one to heart attack at 36, another to a bullet in the hand and the necessity to leave the country very fast. Haven't heard about him anymore), and we did what we had to do, and overall I'd say our family fared better than many.

However, once it becomes the norm, it's excruciatingly hard to return to more ethical ways of existence. Even now, when I'm and my family are well-off and I will not do most of the things I did, will not try to cheat small-time or big time, I still do things like tax evasion (up to the point), downloading movies, music or buying second-hand disks with console games and feel absolutely no shame whatsoever about it.

Latvia had 2 decades of terrible fight against corruption, but any success in such fight comes from people themselves, from the bottom, not from the top. I will neither accept a bribe nor give one, period, I'd rather suffer and do things hard way than give a bribe to someone, especially for policeman. I plainly refuse to do so. The importance of uncorrupt social contract in a proper state is well-understood by most people.

On the other hand, my friend from Ukraine describes himself as anti-corruption because "he never offers a bribe if not asked for it, and often haggles over the size of the bribe even when it's demanded". Because for him it always was a norm. I have no idea how to change that norm in the mind of the people, but I don't think it's entirely their fault. They weren't taught the concept of civic consciousness, and even if some of them have caught it, you can't change the things from the inside if you are alone, it's a kind of Catch-22.

spawn73: They're all involved in bribing, tax dodging and what not.


Yes. They don't know any better. The rule of law, social contract, civic consciousness - it's not concepts they apply to themselves, not easily, at least. There is a huge dissociation in their mind between some official stealing a million from road contract and they stealing a roll of copper wire from the same road construction to sell.

spawn73: But alas, the EU, USA and the IMF is commited to saving their corrupt asses in order to not have Russia win this one.


Hey, at least if those of them who want to be saved from Russia, those can be taught the importance of honesty. :) If Russia will get all of them, they'll have no hope, so at least an attempt to help is entirely warranted.

I just want EU/US say a lot less useless platitudes like "oh, you poor darlings, how could Russia do this to you" and to say a lot more hard truths like "you motherloving motherlikers, you had 20 years of freedom to clear your corrupt ways, starting from farking yourselves, from the bottom, and all the way to the top, and this is you absolutely final last chance! Here is how you do it: you just refuse to give a bribe to anyone, and you demand what's yours, and you don't take what's not yours, and you do it all together and at once, or you may as well go to Russia right away!"
 
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