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(ABC Action News)   St Petersburg, FL. The only place you own is water front property, but you don't own the dock you've used and water in front of your place for years. For $7,800 you can really own it now   (abcactionnews.com) divider line 52
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9892 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Apr 2014 at 12:19 AM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-04 10:44:56 PM
No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).
 
2014-04-04 11:01:44 PM

feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).


So the state hired Coldwell Banker Perlman Realty to sell them all on the open market?

This doesn't smell right to me.
 
2014-04-04 11:27:28 PM
wtf is your headline trying to say subby?

christ, that's a f*cking trainwreck... hence the greenlight.

go figure.
 
2014-04-04 11:27:56 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).

So the state hired Coldwell Banker Perlman Realty to sell them all on the open market?

This doesn't smell right to me.


If it is the same case this has been going on for a year or two now. It is either the homeowner or the state that owns the land. A long time ago someone bought submerged lands, but those were vacated by changes in the law.

There is still the occasional case where someone owns a lake in a residential neighborhood that the neighbors have been using for years, or have built a sidewalk or walking trail around. The owner puts up an ugly fence or something to 'persuade' the HOA to buy the lake or pond. I recall a few years ago a guy bought a tax deed (the HOA didn't pay the property tax on their pond) and after several years you can acquire the property if you hold the deed (the deeds are sold for back taxes). So he did. Then he put up a bright pink wooden fence. The HOA evenutally bought the lake for $300K or something (it was assessed at about 12K).

That guy was murdered by his wife's lesbian lover's son because of a bad drug deal a few months later. Karma is a biatch.

If it is reclaimed land it may be a bit murky as 'navigable' waterways belong to the state (or in some cases other governmental jurisdictions- cities, counties, etc) and you can get permission to use them for a dock, but you may never own them.

If this is the case buying them (if you can truly buy them) is probably cheaper than litigating. Which sucks for most everyone except the people who own the submerged land.
 
2014-04-04 11:36:38 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: This doesn't smell right to me.


It's Florida.
 
2014-04-05 12:24:45 AM

shanrick: Benevolent Misanthrope: This doesn't smell right to me.

It's Florida.


So, it smells like meth and urine?
 
2014-04-05 12:26:12 AM
Next come the guys selling hug cranes that by-pass the docks and load/unload from your legal back yard into the public-owned water.
 
2014-04-05 12:30:43 AM
Pricipal. Caught sayof ownershup has stoped "See, told ya so" Do they own or not. Owners says yes. St. Pete realtors still looking for docks -OR-"hello, I am write single to salute and wait for answer again"
 
2014-04-05 12:31:01 AM
As someone who used to work for a company that makes the tax collection software for the Florida county tax collectors, this sort of BS surprises me ZILCH.

/seriously, if you live there, read up on property tax laws and check your bill
 
2014-04-05 12:34:17 AM
Same thing happened in my neighborhood, but the road went between the houses and the water. Technically the shallow water next to the road was several buildable lots, so the homeowners across the street bought them and made it an easement, so they wouldn't lose their lakeview. Now it's some nice trees, a big dock, and some fire pits.
 
2014-04-05 12:36:38 AM

feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).


There's two perpetual pissing contests back in my hometown along the shores of Medina Lake.

There's 12ft of elevation between "Lake is full at the spillway" and "lake is full and at the top of the dam".  The "owners" of the lake itself claim that they own the land all the way up to the "lake is full at the top" line but the landowners say no.

If the lake drops below the "full at the spillway" level, the exposed land is "open public land" so you could party on it without trespassing and, in theory, be partying 1 foot from someone's backyard and they couldn't say a thing.
 
2014-04-05 12:36:52 AM
So...  There should be a deed and bill of sale somewhere for whomever owns it.
 
2014-04-05 12:39:16 AM

Mr Tarantula: Pricipal. Caught sayof ownershup has stoped "See, told ya so" Do they own or not. Owners says yes. St. Pete realtors still looking for docks -OR-"hello, I am write single to salute and wait for answer again"


I think I just had a stroke trying to decypher that.
 
2014-04-05 12:41:01 AM

feckingmorons: That guy was murdered by his wife's lesbian lover's son because of a bad drug deal a few months later.


I saw that movie. I'd give it a solid 'B'.
 
2014-04-05 12:42:05 AM
In San Francisco there are hundreds of lots that are submerged in the bay near Candlestick point. Back in the 50's they were going to landfill that part of the bay so developers sold the lots for bargain basement prices before the landfill happened. Well, you know what happened next. Still there are people who own and pay property taxes on those submerged lots.
 
2014-04-05 12:45:18 AM
It probably went like this:
Homeowner: "And we own the dock?"
Real Estate Guy: "Lemme check. {checks deed} Nope, but I can secure that from the state for you."
Real Estate Guy: {buys up additional submerged land from the State}
State of Florida: "sucker!"
Real Estate Guy: {profit}
 
2014-04-05 12:58:41 AM
Did these people not have property surveys done when they bought?  I can tell you, to the inch, where my fence leaves my yard and crosses into my neighbor's yard.  Something as major as a dock being (or not being) on my land would have stood out like a sore thumb.  And if my survey told me I owned the dock, but I didn't, my title insurer would be getting a call.
 
2014-04-05 01:00:15 AM

feckingmorons: If this is the case buying them (if you can truly buy them) is probably cheaper than litigating. Which sucks for most everyone except the people who own the submerged land.


True. I hate to be *that guy*, but if they only want $7800 for it, and it affects >100 homes, that's $78/home. the HOA should probably just pony up and buy it before someone else does (and decides he/she wants to charge the residents "rent" or something stupid like that)
 
2014-04-05 01:15:43 AM

Yes this is dog: Mr Tarantula: Pricipal. Caught sayof ownershup has stoped "See, told ya so" Do they own or not. Owners says yes. St. Pete realtors still looking for docks -OR-"hello, I am write single to salute and wait for answer again"

I think I just had a stroke trying to decypher that.


Which is why it's my favorite Fark meme. I giggle every time I see "St. Petersburg" anywhere.
 
2014-04-05 01:17:05 AM

Warthog: Did these people not have property surveys done when they bought?  I can tell you, to the inch, where my fence leaves my yard and crosses into my neighbor's yard.  Something as major as a dock being (or not being) on my land would have stood out like a sore thumb.  And if my survey told me I owned the dock, but I didn't, my title insurer would be getting a call.


Piered docks are frequently not on a resident's property. State-owned lakes are a good example. Waterfront property usually has the equivalent of an easement from the shoreline designated for the owner of the waterfront... you don't own it, but you can use it.  Other state-owned lakes take a different approach. You don't own the submerged land or even the land on which your house is built, but you have full use of both for the price of your yearly property taxes or a relatively small Use fee. By coincidence, I have a lake home at Lake Nazworthy which falls under the second category.

What would be interesting would be a court's interpretation of 'trespassing' for walking in the water outside the resident's property line.

/build floating dock
//tell submerged landowner to eat shiat
 
2014-04-05 01:17:53 AM
So I can buy those rich farkers canal access rights for $7,800.  Farking Sold!  I could charge them each that much for access on a monthly basis.

It might be a farking cesspool, I better check this out.
 
2014-04-05 01:22:48 AM

Warthog: Did these people not have property surveys done when they bought?


Most people don't get surveys unless they're doing something at the property boundary, like building a fence.  Even if they receive a survey map with the property, not everyone goes out and measures things.


One thing this story reminds me is how people love the idea of living next to water, but fail to realize the huge number of things that can crop up.  Easements and property boundaries are one major issue.  Next are all of the environmental restrictions that might not show up on the deed or the SPDS report.  Then there are the 100 year storms that turn that cute little brook into a raging river that floods your property.

Then there is the really weird (read: expensive) shiat that could crop up.  Like having a beaver pack set up in the stream running across your yard while using the trees in your wetland or protected buffer for their den.  Which eventually gets the code enforcement officer in your yard (called by that prick next door) who cites you for having an insufficient number of trees per acre in your buffer.  So you spend a ton of money to have a certified arborist approve your replanting effort, which is then chewed back down by the beavers in a few months.  You can't kill the beavers because traps are banned, poison can't be used in the wetland and firearms aren't allowed in the city.  And that prick next door will know if you try, and has the city on speed dial if you succeed.
 
2014-04-05 01:23:50 AM

Mr Tarantula: Yes this is dog: Mr Tarantula: Pricipal. Caught sayof ownershup has stoped "See, told ya so" Do they own or not. Owners says yes. St. Pete realtors still looking for docks -OR-"hello, I am write single to salute and wait for answer again"

I think I just had a stroke trying to decypher that.

Which is why it's my favorite Fark meme. I giggle every time I see "St. Petersburg" anywhere.


Oh, lol, I was unaware of that meme. I just figured it was the result of too much vodak.
 
2014-04-05 01:26:09 AM
thisisarepeat: So I can buy those rich farkers canal access rights for $7,800.  Farking Sold!  I could charge them each that much for access on a monthly basis.

It might be a farking cesspool, I better check this out.


THIS
 
2014-04-05 01:28:02 AM

Dinjiin: Warthog: Did these people not have property surveys done when they bought?

Most people don't get surveys unless they're doing something at the property boundary, like building a fence.  Even if they receive a survey map with the property, not everyone goes out and measures things.


One thing this story reminds me is how people love the idea of living next to water, but fail to realize the huge number of things that can crop up.  Easements and property boundaries are one major issue.  Next are all of the environmental restrictions that might not show up on the deed or the SPDS report.  Then there are the 100 year storms that turn that cute little brook into a raging river that floods your property.

Then there is the really weird (read: expensive) shiat that could crop up.  Like having a beaver pack set up in the stream running across your yard while using the trees in your wetland or protected buffer for their den.  Which eventually gets the code enforcement officer in your yard (called by that prick next door) who cites you for having an insufficient number of trees per acre in your buffer.  So you spend a ton of money to have a certified arborist approve your replanting effort, which is then chewed back down by the beavers in a few months.  You can't kill the beavers because traps are banned, poison can't be used in the wetland and firearms aren't allowed in the city.  And that prick next door will know if you try, and has the city on speed dial if you succeed.


step one: fix neighbor
step two: fix beavers
step three: do 5 or so years for murder (its just murder, its not like you drove through a school zone with a little blow in your pocket)
step four: profit
 
2014-04-05 01:32:27 AM

Mr Tarantula: Pricipal. Caught sayof ownershup has stoped "See, told ya so" Do they own or not. Owners says yes. St. Pete realtors still looking for docks -OR-"hello, I am write single to salute and wait for answer again"


Does that make sense to anyone else ? WTF language is that ?
 
2014-04-05 01:37:57 AM
This submission was written by a schizophrenic that I can only assume is the same person who wrote the article.

Homeowners in a quiet St. Petersburg neighborhood are learning someone else could own a piece of their property.

Okay, that's interesting. I wonder what sort of arcane law or ordinance causes this.

The debate is over who owns docks that back up to property on the water.

Oh, so it's sort of a private versus public property deal thing. This could be interesting.

Just about every house on Smacks Bayou backs up to water, many of those houses have docks.

So it's some sort of dock issue.

"They thought that they owned a house and they had the rights to use the dock and whatever is on the water in front of their house. No one knew that submerged land was owned by somebody else," Willis said.

So why don't they own the rights to the dock?

That was until listings popped up on real estate web sites like Zillow that say the dock and submerged land around it is for sale and independent of the property it's adjacent to.

So who owns the rights to the dock and why?

That same lot is listed on Homefinder.com for $7,800 by Perlman Realty.

I already don't give a fark, Andrew Doud, and if you get the chance, you should kill yourself.
 
2014-04-05 01:40:45 AM

Slartibartfaster: Mr Tarantula: Pricipal. Caught sayof ownershup has stoped "See, told ya so" Do they own or not. Owners says yes. St. Pete realtors still looking for docks -OR-"hello, I am write single to salute and wait for answer again"

Does that make sense to anyone else ? WTF language is that ?


http://fark.wikia.com/wiki/Pricipal_Ca ught_sayof
 
2014-04-05 01:56:20 AM
"But Willis says the homeowners who have build, remolded or simply used those docks may have been doing so on someone else's property."

Have build, will travel.
 
2014-04-05 02:10:52 AM

Ghryswald: It probably went like this:
Homeowner: "And we own the dock?"
Real Estate Guy: "Lemme check. {checks deed} Nope, but I can secure that from the state for you."
Real Estate Guy: {buys up additional submerged land from the State}
State of Florida: "sucker!"
Real Estate Guy: {profit}


Replace "real estate guy" with "title insurance" and "sucker" with "sorry, did we mean title insurance?  we meant title ensurance.  we don't insure anything and are here just to steal from you like the scum we are" and you are correct.
 
2014-04-05 03:15:02 AM

feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).


And England. It's all the Queen's.
 
2014-04-05 03:56:15 AM
""Right now we don't know what we can do. It's kind of up in the air," Willis said."

More like get away with.
 
2014-04-05 04:02:36 AM

uttertosh: feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).

And England. It's all the Queen's.


Well, it's not really different here, hence property tax, eminent domain, civil forfeiture, etc.
 
2014-04-05 04:03:53 AM
As someone who owns beachfront property on a gulf coast Florida island, I'm getting a kick.

/boat/ferry access only
 
2014-04-05 04:08:55 AM
Is the current dock title the last remaining bit of the  subdivision?

/family owned a lot in Fla where half of them couldn't get water.  Paid for a building permit, ordered the water, got it, and flipped an unbuilt house.
 
2014-04-05 05:53:07 AM
Warthog

Did these people not have property surveys done when they bought?  I can tell you, to the inch, where my fence leaves my yard and crosses into my neighbor's yard.  Something as major as a dock being (or not being) on my land would have stood out like a sore thumb.  And if my survey told me I owned the dock, but I didn't, my title insurer would be getting a call.

Ding.
 
2014-04-05 06:18:44 AM

uttertosh: feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).

And England. It's all the Queen's.


No, it belongs to the Crown (the government), not the Queen (Elizabeth Windsor).
 
2014-04-05 07:48:12 AM

feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).


Aren't all ponds and lakes enclosed by dry land?  I mean, it would be hard to declare a pond in the middle of a great lake, or a lake in the ocean.

MI is also one of those areas where all lakes are state property, I'm not sure how small man made ponds in someone's yard falls into legal definition.

/had to do it.
 
2014-04-05 07:51:28 AM
This is why you get both title insurance and an abstract when you purchase property.
 
2014-04-05 08:58:31 AM
Did Meow Said The Dog write the headline?
 
2014-04-05 09:00:30 AM
It's quite possible it's not the submerged portion but a thin strip of dry land that goes thru each property for which you must buy to build or use. Happens here in Ky all the time. Used to protect from zoning changes, prevent new entrances from being built to exclusive neighborhoods, things of that nature. Just move your dock to connect further up on your property.
 
2014-04-05 09:08:48 AM
Ownership is an illusion. You cats need to free your minds, and quit pretending you have dominion over things which were here long before you were born and will be here long after you're dead. You think a piece of paper from the county clerk changes that reality? You're not on this earth long. You should spend the time getting right with the cosmos, not chasing "property".
 
2014-04-05 10:11:04 AM
Sounds like no one has bothered to drive down to the court house to do some quick property research. In every community I've worked with (albeit in GA), 1 of 2 things are needed to record a property by the city/county: a survey of the property or development (which should include meets and bounds of every property line) or a written property description by a registered surveyor or engineer (also includes m&b info). Sometimes a deed will refer to a previous deed, which may refer to a previous deed, etc., which may eventually refer to a survey. But somewhere that info has been recorded. This article and all involved fail for not having at least taken step one to determine the limits of their properties.
 
2014-04-05 10:40:45 AM

calbert: wtf is your headline trying to say subby?

christ, that's a f*cking trainwreck... hence the greenlight.

go figure.


Its amazing how many learning comprehension impaired people end up as grammar nazis.  I don't care if it isn't grammatically correct it conveys the content of the article well.
 
2014-04-05 12:28:03 PM
Those things in the picture are not "docks", they are piers. A "dock" is a hole in the water where you put the boat. A "pier" is the structure that sticks out in the water at right angles to the shore you walk on to get to the boat. A "wharf" runs parallel to the shore.

Juts because people misunderstood Otis reading and don't use the word properly doesn't mean we have to as well.
 
2014-04-05 12:51:08 PM
lack of warmth: feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).

Aren't all ponds and lakes enclosed by dry land?  I mean, it would be hard to declare a pond in the middle of a great lake, or a lake in the ocean.

MI is also one of those areas where all lakes are state property, I'm not sure how small man made ponds in someone's yard falls into legal definition.

/had to do it.


Well in my state the state owns all "navigable waters" which is defined as any running body of water(river, stream etc) that runs year round or any still body of water(lake, pond) that has water in it year round and is not entirely contained on 1 piece of property.
 
2014-04-05 12:58:24 PM

Norfolking Chance: uttertosh: feckingmorons: No, in many places submerged lands are property of the state and you're only granted access. It is certainly like that in all of Florida (except for ponds and small lakes enclosed by dry land).

And England. It's all the Queen's.

No, it belongs to the Crown (the government), not the Queen (Elizabeth Windsor).


stop spitting heirs
 
2014-04-05 01:38:48 PM
I'm seeing a lot of "assuming" in this story, and not a lot of "checking the farking deed to the property".
 
2014-04-05 02:27:18 PM

Truther: Did Meow Said The Dog write the headline?


LAUGHTER OL.
 
2014-04-05 09:46:31 PM

Shadyman: feckingmorons: If this is the case buying them (if you can truly buy them) is probably cheaper than litigating. Which sucks for most everyone except the people who own the submerged land.

True. I hate to be *that guy*, but if they only want $7800 for it, and it affects >100 homes, that's $78/home. the HOA should probably just pony up and buy it before someone else does (and decides he/she wants to charge the residents "rent" or something stupid like that)


Oh, sorry I wasn't clear. $7800 per house and each house has a dock.
 
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