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(CNN)   Underground ocean found on moon of Saturn. Search for MH370 to start there Monday   (cnn.com) divider line 118
    More: Interesting, moons, Saturn, oceans, underground ocean, moons of Jupiter, Ganymede, Enceladus, Cassini Spacecraft  
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4876 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Apr 2014 at 4:53 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-06 01:32:57 AM  

kroonermanblack: Freschel: kroonermanblack: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Dwight_Yeast: Monkeyfark Ridiculous: Depositing a protective diamond coating on a substrate is a technology which is already in use today.

/manipulating carbon, not peeling space diamonds

Right.  In 2061, they want the diamonds because they're going to cut them up and use them for various purposes, but there's an epilogue set far in the future where the buildings are covered in diamond.  By that point, they don't need the big space diamonds, because they can manipulate carbon.

/Like I said before, what's interesting is that Neal Stephenson suggest we'll skip the step of mining for big diamonds somewhere out in space and go right to manipulating atoms, some time in the next 100 years.


Yeah, I'm just saying it doesn't sound crazy/far-fetched, because people are already doing it (on a smaller scale obviously).

Can someone tell me what book you guys are talking about? Sounds like it could be a fun read.

2061: Odyssey Three

So, in series with 2001, I assume? I didn't look it up yet.


Eyup
 
2014-04-06 01:58:29 AM  

Ghastly: Smackledorfer: Ghastly: Smackledorfer:
You are wrong is a perfectly valid response in science discussions. No alternate solution is required.

Sure, just saying "you're wrong" and nothing more is perfectly fine way to respond even if the more accurate response is "I don't know the solution so I will just ridicule those who are trying to answer it".

Thankfully science has never been satisfied with " I don't know" and if history has shown us anything when it comes to technology those who say "impossible" have often been shown to be woefully short sighted.

Science doesn't stop at 'i don't know', but neither does it greenlight every bad idea that comes along.

In then one hundred years before I was born mankind was able to go from steam powered locomotion to sending rockets to the moon. Just 4 years after I was born we walked on it.

If I were a betting man I would say the people in the "it is impossible for us to ever probe beneath the ice crust of Europa" will be in the same camp as the "it is impossible for heavier than air aircraft to exist".

I, for one, do not see the quest to unlock Europa's secrets as a " bad idea".


What you think you sound like: wright brother

What you actually are: the goofy bastard at redbull flugstag.


Sorry. You are confusing your daydreamy fark musings with science.
 
2014-04-06 01:59:41 AM  

mudesi: The shocking lack of basic science literacy in this thread makes me want to do this:

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 225x220]

No, people, you can't send a probe to melt the farking ice, nor can you pump the water out through a pipe.  Jesus Christ.  I won't name names. You know who you are.  For God's sake, get more than a D+ in basic high school science before you say things.

 It doesn't matter that you melt the ice "gradually" and "over time", it doesn't matter that the melting point of ice is "only" 0 degrees Celsius.

In order to melt  MILES OF ICE you'd need more energy than can ever,  EVER be stored on a probe and transported all the way over on a moon of motherfarking SATURN.

Really, just...
[www.taylorclark.co image 618x407]

REALLY.

[i0.kym-cdn.com image 397x316]


Plutonium-238 generates enough heat from its own decay that a plutonium-238 oxide pellet will glow when it's just sitting there.  It generates about half a watt per gram, and is used commonly in space applications as a heat source which requires no stored energy.  The half-life of about 88 years means it lasts plenty of time for something like this, and a few kilos would be more than enough to melt its way through miles of ice.  It would just make its way down through the ice sheet in a moving "bubble" of melted liquid (and possibly steam, depending on how much of the isotope is used).  Also, it only emits alpha radiation, so it won't leave the whole area irradiated on its way down, and is relatively easy to shield to prevent it from killing any organisms it gets close to.
 
2014-04-06 02:06:30 AM  

threedingers: One of the authors of the Science paper is a former colleague of mine. Very smart guy...

/csb


Speaking of scientists, when I was a guest at a sci-fi/anime/fantasy/technology convention I was sitting in the green room with this bonafide NASA scientist. Had a really great time talking to him. He was telling me one of his biggest disappointments was that we never developed orbital solar plants to harvest solar energy and transmit it to earth as microwave radiation. Basically giant floating solar panels the size of about 3 football fields.

Had a great time talking to him about technology and speculative fiction and then somehow the conversation turned to politics. And things got pretty intense. Conspiracy theories, coming revolution, statues of Ayn Rand everywhere, blowing up the White House. He started getting really agitated and the other people sitting at the table started leaving but he was fixated on me and I was thinking "I better get out of here". So I told him I had a panel on Evil But Cute with Randy Milholland and Jon Rosenberg and whoever "4rth Guy" was going to be and I really had to get to it (even though the panel wasn't for another hour). He started writing down a lot of of stuff on a piece of paper, websites addresses and other stuff and pressed it into my hand telling me it was really important and stuff I would need to know to survive what was coming. I told him I'd check it out but I really had to get going.

I have never in my life met such an intense combination of brilliant and batshiat crazy.

I don't know what the fark was on that piece of paper but I'd be damned if I was going to have that on my person going through airport security. So I folded it up and left it in the bible in the hotel room figuring it should scare the crap out of whoever found it.

Good times.... good times...
 
2014-04-06 02:09:14 AM  
Smackledorfer:

Sorry. You are confusing your daydreamy fark musings with science.

I never said I was doing anything more than daydreaming. I have no idea how they'll get a sub-ice probe on Europa but I am an certain that they will. I just hope I don't kick it before they do.

Forgive me for having an imagination.
 
2014-04-06 02:13:27 AM  

Ghastly: Smackledorfer:

Sorry. You are confusing your daydreamy fark musings with science.

I never said I was doing anything more than daydreaming. I have no idea how they'll get a sub-ice probe on Europa but I am an certain that they will. I just hope I don't kick it before they do.

Forgive me for having an imagination.


I was fine with your imagination right up until you got all demandy that people saying your musings were wrong were required to provide alternative theories or else they were somehow anti-scientific progress.

We all have our lines in the sand I guess.

Aso, thanks QA, however we WILL pull off life in space someday :p
 
2014-04-06 02:35:39 AM  
Smackledorfer:
Forgive me for having an imagination.

I was fine with your imagination right up until you got all demandy that people saying your musings were wrong were required to provide alternative theories or else they were somehow anti-scientific progress.

We all have our lines in the sand I guess.

Aso, thanks QA, however we WILL pull off life in space someday :p


What I was saying is ANYBODY can come into a thread and shiat all over while acting like a sanctimonious prick and giving nothing of value to the discussion.

To drop into a speculative discussion and say "ZOMG!!! You idiots! It would take THOUSANDS OF NUCLEAR BOMBS to get through that much ice" and then mock other people's speculation while offering nothing, that deserves to be called out.

Saying "you're wrong" doesn't mean science is on your side and if you're not going to offer anything more than "you're wrong" then you've contributed nothing to the conversation and should have your opinion just as readily dismissed.

I've not claimed to be a rocket scientist. I make my living as an artist but I don't see how someone who gives nothing  more to the conversation than pictures of Captain Picard and "thousands of nuclear bombs" is more qualified to have an opinion on the subject nor do I understand why his opinion should be beyond reproach.

But please, take all the umbrage you wish. They're just laying about in the lost and found anyway.
 
2014-04-06 04:32:15 AM  
Nice work, subby.
 
2014-04-06 07:00:20 AM  

SpaceButler: It would just make its way down through the ice sheet in a moving "bubble" of melted liquid (and possibly steam, depending on how much of the isotope is used).


That's great. You've got an irradiated slug of metal on the bottom of the planet.

Now how do you A) capture data with it, B) send that data anywhere through thousands of kilos of ice?
 
2014-04-06 07:38:36 AM  

kroonermanblack: SpaceButler: It would just make its way down through the ice sheet in a moving "bubble" of melted liquid (and possibly steam, depending on how much of the isotope is used).

That's great. You've got an irradiated slug of metal on the bottom of the planet.

Now how do you A) capture data with it, B) send that data anywhere through thousands of kilos of ice?


One possibility is that a cryobot melting its way through the ice could leave behind a series of transceivers as it goes, to relay data back to a communicator on the surface without the need for a massive tether which would be vulnerable to shifting ice. NASA has shown some interest in the whole melty-proby idea, but it isn't clear whether any of the scientists involved had received better than a D+ in basic farking high school science class before moving on to JPL/NASA/etc.
 
2014-04-06 07:49:02 AM  

Monkeyfark Ridiculous: kroonermanblack: SpaceButler: It would just make its way down through the ice sheet in a moving "bubble" of melted liquid (and possibly steam, depending on how much of the isotope is used).

That's great. You've got an irradiated slug of metal on the bottom of the planet.

Now how do you A) capture data with it, B) send that data anywhere through thousands of kilos of ice?

One possibility is that a cryobot melting its way through the ice could leave behind a series of transceivers as it goes, to relay data back to a communicator on the surface without the need for a massive tether which would be vulnerable to shifting ice. NASA has shown some interest in the whole melty-proby idea, but it isn't clear whether any of the scientists involved had received better than a D+ in basic farking high school science class before moving on to JPL/NASA/etc.


I really love the mental image of a descending robot probe pooping out a chain of transceivers as it makes its way to the under-ice ocean.
 
2014-04-06 09:45:46 AM  

fusillade762: It would be cool if Enceladus had cephalopods.


NO.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2014-04-06 10:53:48 AM  

Smackledorfer: CAT-LIKE TYPING DETECTED: Pipe heavier than antenna-wire, and space-intensive..worse problem, logistically..plus, weight of a pump that can push liquid 50km up

You'll forgive me, but I don't take my science lectures from people who cannot express complex thoughts.  Not because I'm sure they know less about science than me, but because I am sure it would impossible for me to learn anything from them.

You may be having wonderfully detailed and complex thoughts up in that mind of yours, but none of that makes it through in a mess of fragmented sentences and ellipses.

Seriously... wtf... is up with ellip....ses in the writing o...f... people?


I was going to reply in more detail but I see you've since been wonderfully deflated by others, here.  So, three short points only in reply..

1 - I have been having eating and sleeping issues I find rather concerning, over the past couple months.  I had to be up for work in 4-5'ish hours at the time I posted that, using brevity to keep up with conversation.  I had eaten all of 1 can of spaghettio's in the 4 days previous, and had a 12-hour shift ahead..  Of what was in that post, all fragments are internally consistent and keeping with the topic.  Odd that you ignored the other posts..that are longer and far less ellipse-filled..expressing complete, clear thoughts and ideas when you chose to make your offhanded judgement of me..

2 -  I am, by training, a Marine scientist and computer Engineer.  I've had a lifelong fascination with all things space and have been a serious Astronomy/Cosmology/Space-Tech 'Amateur' for almost 4 decades..was drawing schematics of SkyLab two years before it came down..

3 - I..like..ellipses..  And can spell properly, as well..  It appears you are lacking in both these abilities..


Cheers..!
 
2014-04-06 01:52:41 PM  

CAT-LIKE TYPING DETECTED: Smackledorfer: CAT-LIKE TYPING DETECTED: Pipe heavier than antenna-wire, and space-intensive..worse problem, logistically..plus, weight of a pump that can push liquid 50km up

You'll forgive me, but I don't take my science lectures from people who cannot express complex thoughts.  Not because I'm sure they know less about science than me, but because I am sure it would impossible for me to learn anything from them.

You may be having wonderfully detailed and complex thoughts up in that mind of yours, but none of that makes it through in a mess of fragmented sentences and ellipses.

Seriously... wtf... is up with ellip....ses in the writing o...f... people?

I was going to reply in more detail but I see you've since been wonderfully deflated by others, here.  So, three short points only in reply..

1 - I have been having eating and sleeping issues I find rather concerning, over the past couple months.  I had to be up for work in 4-5'ish hours at the time I posted that, using brevity to keep up with conversation.  I had eaten all of 1 can of spaghettio's in the 4 days previous, and had a 12-hour shift ahead..  Of what was in that post, all fragments are internally consistent and keeping with the topic.  Odd that you ignored the other posts..that are longer and far less ellipse-filled..expressing complete, clear thoughts and ideas when you chose to make your offhanded judgement of me..

2 -  I am, by training, a Marine scientist and computer Engineer.  I've had a lifelong fascination with all things space and have been a serious Astronomy/Cosmology/Space-Tech 'Amateur' for almost 4 decades..was drawing schematics of SkyLab two years before it came down..

3 - I..like..ellipses..  And can spell properly, as well..  It appears you are lacking in both these abilities..


Cheers..!


1 is a valid excuse for errors, not deliberately bad writing.

2 shows you are intelligent enough that you should have picked up basic communication skills in high school.

3 is an extremely lame counter. "well, you're writing is not perfect" is a terrible justification for incomplete thoughts and fragmented crap.
 
2014-04-06 01:57:33 PM  

CAT-LIKE TYPING DETECTED: 3 - I..like..ellipses..  And can spell properly, as well..  It appears you are lacking in both these abilities..


I cannot find any spelling errors of mine in this thread, would you point them out so I can improve my writing?

How is 'liking ellipses' an "ability"?
 
2014-04-06 02:26:44 PM  

mudesi: The shocking lack of basic science literacy in this thread makes me want to do this:

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 225x220]

No, people, you can't send a probe to melt the farking ice, nor can you pump the water out through a pipe.  Jesus Christ.  I won't name names. You know who you are.  For God's sake, get more than a D+ in basic high school science before you say things.

 It doesn't matter that you melt the ice "gradually" and "over time", it doesn't matter that the melting point of ice is "only" 0 degrees Celsius.

In order to melt  MILES OF ICE you'd need more energy than can ever,  EVER be stored on a probe and transported all the way over on a moon of motherfarking SATURN.

Really, just...
[www.taylorclark.co image 618x407]

REALLY.

[i0.kym-cdn.com image 397x316]


You might be right, but just saying "You're stupid, that would never work" is not an argument.  You've given people no reason to take your side in this argument.

I mean, if you're just here to insult people and mock them, have at it and enjoy, but if you're trying to CONVINCE anyone of anything, you're failing.
 
2014-04-06 02:29:36 PM  

kroonermanblack: Ghastly: Surely you have something useful to contribute to the discussion and aren't just here to say "you're wrong". So don't keep it to yourself. Tell us how it can be done if the methods we're suggesting are not workable.

Just because your theories are unworkable does not obligate him to create functional ones for you.


No, but it DOES obligate him to explain why they are unworkable, if he wants third parties to agree with him.

There are disinterested parties who, through no lack of intelligence (though perhaps because of a lack of knowledge about science) do not immediately see why the theories in question are unworkable.  "That's stupid!" isn't an argument or reasonable explanation.  All it really establishes is that the person saying it is unpleasant and belligerent.
 
2014-04-06 02:50:20 PM  

ciberido: No, but it DOES obligate him to explain why they are unworkable, if he wants third parties to agree with him.


He mentions the energy required to change the temperature of miles thick ice. Are we operating under the assumption that "let's send out an orb to a place across the solar system and melt through miles of ice" is a valid suggestion until someone calculates how many miles of ice and how much power is required?

I enjoy daydreaming about stuff like this as much as the next guy. I don't see why someone's passing fancy in a discussion requires such a high bar to be met for those who disagree.

If guy A says "x could work" with no details or math or concept of scale, why is guy B held to a higher standard when saying "x would not work"?

Afaict, Mudesi provided as much or more reasoning for his comment than the people he detracts from.
 
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