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(Salon)   The rise in Americans who claim no religious affiliation coincides with the rise of the Internet, global warming, and pirates   (salon.com) divider line 170
    More: Interesting, Americans, religions and spiritual traditions, College of Engineering, General Social Survey, religiosity, University of Chicago  
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2802 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Apr 2014 at 8:28 PM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-04 10:24:03 PM  
Oh man! So in order for religion to thrive again, we need to get rid of free thinking, education, and the world's main medium of communication and information exchange? Yea..... Screw religion. Non religious and proud. And just to avoid confusion amongst the ignorant, non religious is not Atheist, or satan worshipping.
 
2014-04-04 10:24:19 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: had98c:  1/10. Overdone to the point of absurdity by now. One free point for posting before letrole comes in with the atheism is a religion line.

I'm curious at how my two lines are over doing it.

Since Agnostic and Atheism are two different things.


Lenny_da_Hog:
It's funnier to point out that when the word "agnostic" was coined in the late 1800s, it meant exactly the same thing as "atheist". The words were interchangeable. After a few decades, it evolved to be adopted by people who questioned religion, but were uncommitted -- they didn't know if they themselves believed.


No. It was coined EXACTLY what it means now

Wordstory
The word agnostic was coined by the English biologist T.H. Huxley in the late 1860s as a member of the now defunct Metaphysical Society, in response to what he perceived as an abundance there of strongly held beliefs. The original usage of the term was confined to philosophy and religion, and referred to Huxley's assertion that anything beyond the material world, including the existence and nature of God,was unknowable. Today the word can be seen applied to questions of politics, culture, and science, as when someone claims to be a "political agnostic." 
 In a more recent trend, one can be agnostic  simply by not taking a stand on something. In 2010,President Obama called himself "agnostic" on tax cuts until he had seen all available options. At a forum on sustainable energy in 2008, GE CEO Jeff Immelt said he was "fuel agnostic fundamentally." In technology, software or hardware can be said to be agnostic  as well. Computer code that can run on any operating system is called "platform agnostic," and such services as phone and electric may be considered "agnostic" if not dedicated to a particular carrier, device, or user interface.


I have never had the least sympathy with the a priori reasons against orthodoxy, and I have by nature and disposition the greatest possible antipathy to all the atheistic and infidel school. Nevertheless I know that I am, in spite of myself, exactly what the Christian would call, and, so far as I can see, is justified in calling, atheist and infidel.  -- Thomas Huxley.

He admits it means the same thing, but he doesn't like being called an "atheist" or "infidel". He emphasises the lack of a priori knowledge over the lack of theism, but they still mean the same thing.
 
2014-04-04 10:34:39 PM  
With the rise of the internet, we atheists have discovered a solidarity which existed only as localized pockets before. We have discovered we're more numerous than we ever suspected. We have also found our voice, and the ability to use it, calmly, rationally, and by its very depth of perception, equally as powerful the well-scripted, highly-practiced "shout-down" tactics of an industry whose influence relies on the fears and naivete of others.
 
2014-04-04 10:39:09 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Boojum2k: talkertopc: I'm an Atheist but I think people are jumping the gun in equating no religious affiliation with atheism. I don't know any other Atheists but I do know people who believe there is a God but claim not to believe in any religion, those people still practice some religious rituals (baptism, wedding) for cultural reasons.

I'm an agnostic atheist and Christmas is still my favorite holiday, for the "getting together with friends and family" aspect along with trying to surprise someone with a cool gift. Also, shopping is easy when you're a big guy in a leather jacket.

/or Amazon

You cannot be an agnostic atheist. You are either an Agnostic or an Atheist.


Wrong. Q: Am I an atheist? A: Hmm, not sure. Ergo, agnostic atheist.
/ta-daa
 
2014-04-04 10:39:46 PM  

HAMMERTOE: With the rise of the internet, we atheists have discovered a solidarity which existed only as localized pockets before. We have discovered we're more numerous than we ever suspected. We have also found our voice, and the ability to use it, calmly, rationally, and by its very depth of perception, equally as powerful the well-scripted, highly-practiced "shout-down" tactics of an industry whose influence relies on the fears and naivete of others.


Yeah. I see the rise of atheism like the rise in homosexuality.

You used to have to how it. Now tout can Embrace it.
 
2014-04-04 10:40:59 PM  

HAMMERTOE: With the rise of the internet, we atheists have discovered a solidarity which existed only as localized pockets before. We have discovered we're more numerous than we ever suspected. We have also found our voice, and the ability to use it, calmly, rationally, and by its very depth of perception, equally as powerful the well-scripted, highly-practiced "shout-down" tactics of an industry whose influence relies on the fears and naivete of others.


Now this guy gets it.
 
2014-04-04 10:43:19 PM  

Truther: doosh: As a gen-x'er I remember back in the 80's and early 90's when I had to think twice before admitting to someone I was an atheist. usually there was a gasp of disbelief but sometimes people would get visibly upset.

Where did you live?

Alabama?


Implying that Alabama is the bible thumpin capitol of the US?
 
2014-04-04 10:44:45 PM  

HAMMERTOE: With the rise of the internet, we atheists have discovered a solidarity which existed only as localized pockets before. We have discovered we're more numerous than we ever suspected. We have also found our voice, and the ability to use it, calmly, rationally, and by its very depth of perception, equally as powerful the well-scripted, highly-practiced "shout-down" tactics of an industry whose influence relies on the fears and naivete of others.


It also helped that the earliest foothold on the internet came from collegiates, scientists, and advanced computer users.

It was a few years before AOL made it accessible to the unwashed masses, and by then that ability to speak in criticism of religions was well-established and taken for granted.
 
2014-04-04 10:47:15 PM  

HAMMERTOE: With the rise of the internet, we atheists have discovered a solidarity which existed only as localized pockets before. We have discovered we're more numerous than we ever suspected. We have also found our voice, and the ability to use it, calmly, rationally, and by its very depth of perception, equally as powerful the well-scripted, highly-practiced "shout-down" tactics of an industry whose influence relies on the fears and naivete of others.


To an extent. And then you meet them in person and find out that, just like everybody else, they exist in the same proportions of good folks and assholes as most every other group. Although atheists do divorce less, at least. Looking for rational reasons to be with someone rather than "Glod has a plan for us" probably helps there.

But the internet does help in debunking the pseudoscientific bullshiat YEC's and the like promote.
 
2014-04-04 10:50:30 PM  

BammerTide: Implying that Alabama is the bible thumpin capitol of the US?


We're close, but not it. We've certainly got a large number in political office, but so far it's been more neglect than direct hostility.

I do remember having to look up what the hell a "secular humanist"  was when I was a kid (pre-internet, so had to use the library), and trying to figure out why that was a bad thing to be. Never found a good answer to that.
 
2014-04-04 10:56:18 PM  
the worst of it is is that jesus h christ on a sidecar had some really good things to say (that most christians don't listen to)

it's sort of sad that the whole 'hey, be good to folks' at the heart of most religions gets lost in all that whargarbl, muckity muck, and idol worship

/not as militant as I used to be....
 
2014-04-04 10:56:40 PM  

neongoats: MFAWG: neongoats: MFAWG: vonster: MFAWG: I think there is a certain type of Christianity that's being practiced in the US that has nothing to do with Christianity and may actually end up destroying it.

And that would actually be a bad thing.

I think in a limited way you may be right.

There was a time (in my lifetime, in fact) when Christians were a real force for positive social change. Them days seem to be in the past.

How old ARE you? Because I'm closing in on 40 and that's literally never been the case in my lifetime. Also, the troops have never once defended my freedoms.(except maybe the coast guard and NORAD)

I'm 50, and I don't think you were paying enough attention to the 70s.

Well I was ages 0 through 3 in the 70s, So yeah.


I'm pushing 50 and don't know what he's talking about either.

Religion does nothing constructive, some religious individuals do.  Just think what could be accomplished without religion holding them back.
 
2014-04-04 10:59:18 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: thrasherrr: It's not the only framework. There are some alternate ones that work better for, say, people who think that a true god must be unimaginable (and thus cannot actually be believed in) by humans


Look, either you believe in the supernatural or you don't. It's not rocket science.  It's basic logic.


That's wrong logic. You don't even have to use an esoteric example to make it fail.

Kepler coined the original Watchmaker, who set the universe in motion according to rules and then got the hell out of the way.  In this belief system 'the supernatural' does not even exist.  God made Nature, and that's that.  Yet such believers are definitely Theists on the framework.

So no, 'God' does not equal 'the supernatural' in that framework.
 
2014-04-04 11:04:25 PM  

Boojum2k: BammerTide: Implying that Alabama is the bible thumpin capitol of the US?

We're close, but not it. We've certainly got a large number in political office, but so far it's been more neglect than direct hostility.

I do remember having to look up what the hell a "secular humanist"  was when I was a kid (pre-internet, so had to use the library), and trying to figure out why that was a bad thing to be. Never found a good answer to that.


True. There are a bunch of zealots roaming the state and it doesnt help that the State reps are making laws based on myth. I just get my jimmies all twisted when Alabama is referenced to any and all bad. Its a nice state with decent people, most of the time.
 
2014-04-04 11:08:35 PM  

BammerTide: Boojum2k: BammerTide: Implying that Alabama is the bible thumpin capitol of the US?

We're close, but not it. We've certainly got a large number in political office, but so far it's been more neglect than direct hostility.

I do remember having to look up what the hell a "secular humanist"  was when I was a kid (pre-internet, so had to use the library), and trying to figure out why that was a bad thing to be. Never found a good answer to that.

True. There are a bunch of zealots roaming the state and it doesnt help that the State reps are making laws based on myth. I just get my jimmies all twisted when Alabama is referenced to any and all bad. Its a nice state with decent people, most of the time.


That's been my experience here too. Lived in Montgomery most of my life, not originally from here though.
 
2014-04-04 11:09:13 PM  
img.fark.net
 
2014-04-04 11:14:29 PM  

Boojum2k: BammerTide: Boojum2k: BammerTide: Implying that Alabama is the bible thumpin capitol of the US?

We're close, but not it. We've certainly got a large number in political office, but so far it's been more neglect than direct hostility.

I do remember having to look up what the hell a "secular humanist"  was when I was a kid (pre-internet, so had to use the library), and trying to figure out why that was a bad thing to be. Never found a good answer to that.

True. There are a bunch of zealots roaming the state and it doesnt help that the State reps are making laws based on myth. I just get my jimmies all twisted when Alabama is referenced to any and all bad. Its a nice state with decent people, most of the time.

That's been my experience here too. Lived in Montgomery most of my life, not originally from here though.


I was born and raised here. East Alabama
 
2014-04-04 11:19:20 PM  

BammerTide: I was born and raised here. East Alabama


I moved here almost directly from England, while in elementary school. You can imagine how that went. I still like the place, although I handle cold weather a lot better than the demonic asscrack summers here.
 
2014-04-04 11:25:33 PM  
A rose by any other mother flucking name you god damned moronic imbeciles.  Do you even know what means?  You are looking like a pedant that has run out of any other possible real information and so now revert to your base form of potato.
 
2014-04-04 11:27:25 PM  

Omahawg: the worst of it is is that jesus h christ on a sidecar had some really good things to say (that most christians don't listen to)

it's sort of sad that the whole 'hey, be good to folks' at the heart of most religions gets lost in all that whargarbl, muckity muck, and idol worship

/not as militant as I used to be....


Agreeing with Jesus should make you a Jesusian, just like agreeing with Marx makes you a Marxist, or agreeing with Keynes makes you a Keynesian. I agree with most of what Jesus of Nazareth is purported to have said.

You're only a Christian if you believe he's the Christ.
 
2014-04-04 11:31:21 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: I agree with most of what Jesus of Nazareth is purported to have said.You're only a Christian if you believe he's the Christ.


This is a good point. What do you think of CS Lewis's "Liar, lunatic, or Lord" argument?

/Mainly interested in keeping good conversation going
 
2014-04-04 11:31:26 PM  

Boojum2k: BammerTide: I was born and raised here. East Alabama

I moved here almost directly from England, while in elementary school. You can imagine how that went. I still like the place, although I handle cold weather a lot better than the demonic asscrack summers here.


cold i cannot do. Give me 100 degree with 99% humidity anyday
 
2014-04-04 11:33:17 PM  

BammerTide: cold i cannot do. Give me 100 degree with 99% humidity anyday


I've shoveled snow in t-shirt and shorts. It wasn't until I moved here that I realized that air conditioning was the greatest human invention ever.
 
2014-04-04 11:36:02 PM  

Boojum2k: Lenny_da_Hog: I agree with most of what Jesus of Nazareth is purported to have said.You're only a Christian if you believe he's the Christ.

This is a good point. What do you think of CS Lewis's "Liar, lunatic, or Lord" argument?

/Mainly interested in keeping good conversation going


It doesn't allow for the simple solution: Fans deify their idols, especially after martyrdom. He didn't necessarily say everything that's attributed to him.
 
2014-04-04 11:36:51 PM  

Boojum2k: BammerTide: cold i cannot do. Give me 100 degree with 99% humidity anyday

I've shoveled snow in t-shirt and shorts. It wasn't until I moved here that I realized that air conditioning was the greatest human invention ever.


I lived in GErmany for 3 yrs and it was painful in the winter. Play soccer one day and wake the next and its a white out. Loved the country, but damn the winters sucked
 
2014-04-04 11:37:38 PM  
I was in northern Thailand one time, and watched a religious ceremony at a remote temple in the jungle.  I have no idea what they were doing, but that's okay.

I have the same opinion towards what the folks do at the church down the street here at home in Berkeley CA.
 
2014-04-04 11:43:53 PM  
FTA: "According to MIT Technology Review, back in 1990 only eight percent of the U.S. population did not have a religious affiliation. Twenty years later in 2010 that number was up to 18 percent. That is a jump of 25 million people. Americans seem to be losing their religion, and from Downey's research we may have an answer."

Bullshiat.  More than 50% of the population does NOT actually believe their so-called religious affiliation and that isn't exactly NEWS...  it has been that way forever.  Social norms force outward conformity though inward doubt remains.  Church is a business opportunity.  Mega-church is a mega opportunity.  Internet simply offers the chance to have a sense of community without the bullshiat so more folks feel free to admit that they always had questions and many never believed.

/  I am right.
// You'll see.
/// Eventually.
 
2014-04-04 11:46:49 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: It doesn't allow for the simple solution: Fans deify their idols, especially after martyrdom. He didn't necessarily say everything that's attributed to him.


That's not the answer I was expecting, that's pretty damn good too! I was leaning towards "just because someone is delusional on some points doesn't make them wrong on all points" but historical deviation and revision works rather well.
 
2014-04-04 11:58:50 PM  

Athiest, Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Liberal, Conservative, it doesn't matter.  I like to watch this quick 3 minute video every morning to inspire me to being the best I can be.  Not some narcissistic, self serving, superficial non-sense either. Just being nice to people and understanding why it's nice to be nice to people without some reason connected to affiliation is one of the most centered feelings you can have.




The clip SFW and so safe it should probably should be shown at your next company meeting
 
2014-04-05 12:10:50 AM  

jcooli09: Just think what could be accomplished without religion holding them back.


Hence the reason it was co-opted by power. Every tool in the chest is used to keep the rabble under control, if saying a couple wololo's in front of people keeps a few million from asking too many questions, it's worth the wololos.
 
2014-04-05 12:15:19 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: It also helped that the earliest foothold on the internet came from collegiates, scientists, and advanced computer users.


In the sense that it "helped" that the people who flew the Mercury missions were also astronauts.

/wut
 
2014-04-05 12:38:16 AM  
8% to 18% in 20 years.  Sounds like much of that 8% had children, and did not indoctrinate them.
 
2014-04-05 12:38:27 AM  
"The word "Christian" tells you nothing without a long string of modifiers and brand affiliations. There are literally thousands of different belief sets that all call themselves "Christian."

That's why you need to read for yourself and know what Christ actually said if you are interested.
That way you can't be deceived like some of these belief sets are.
If you can't or won't do that, you should just stay out of any debate on the subject.
 
2014-04-05 12:40:31 AM  

Kurmudgeon: "The word "Christian" tells you nothing without a long string of modifiers and brand affiliations. There are literally thousands of different belief sets that all call themselves "Christian."

That's why you need to read for yourself and know what Christ actually said if you are interested.
That way you can't be deceived like some of these belief sets are.
If you can't or won't do that, you should just stay out of any debate on the subject.


Why, that's the same thing the other 999 sects say about *you*.
 
2014-04-05 12:41:16 AM  

thrasherrr: Darth_Lukecash: thrasherrr: It's not the only framework. There are some alternate ones that work better for, say, people who think that a true god must be unimaginable (and thus cannot actually be believed in) by humans


Look, either you believe in the supernatural or you don't. It's not rocket science.  It's basic logic.

That's wrong logic. You don't even have to use an esoteric example to make it fail.

Kepler coined the original Watchmaker, who set the universe in motion according to rules and then got the hell out of the way.  In this belief system 'the supernatural' does not even exist.  God made Nature, and that's that.  Yet such believers are definitely Theists on the framework.

So no, 'God' does not equal 'the supernatural' in that framework.

Maybe I'm being pedantic, but this "watchmaker" you speak of would have to be outside of, or abovethe natural world that he/she/it created.

That sounds like the supernatural to me.

*Super: above; over; beyond.
 
2014-04-05 12:42:25 AM  

FlashHarry: well, knowledge is an antidote to superstition. and the internet is the greatest doorway to knowledge ever created,


For certain values of "knowledge," sure.
 
2014-04-05 12:48:18 AM  

Whatchoo Talkinbout: The rise of Americans who claim no religious affiliation coincides with (medisbullshait) The Rise Of Satan.



blogs.babble.com

Well, isn't that special.
 
2014-04-05 01:58:05 AM  

Truther: 18%?
The atheists have won.
Guess I'll give up my belief in God now.
/since they are a majority and all


It's not about percentages. It's about what's true.
 
2014-04-05 02:06:30 AM  

Boojum2k: Lenny_da_Hog: I agree with most of what Jesus of Nazareth is purported to have said.You're only a Christian if you believe he's the Christ.

This is a good point. What do you think of CS Lewis's "Liar, lunatic, or Lord" argument?

/Mainly interested in keeping good conversation going


The problem with that argument is that it is dishonest and uses loaded language to anger believers. It also leaves out other valid answers, such as "myth".
 
2014-04-05 02:11:33 AM  

shtychkn: You mean the US is catching up with the test of the modern world?


I wish.  The US is shifting even more politically rightward than it has in a century.  Just take a look at Nate Silver's numbers and Charlie Cook's commentaries.  The R's are going to take the Senate this year.
 
2014-04-05 02:13:55 AM  

doosh: As a gen-x'er I remember back in the 80's and early 90's when I had to think twice before admitting to someone I was an atheist. usually there was a gasp of disbelief but sometimes people would get visibly upset.


I once told a Muslim I was an atheist.  Without pausing, he asked, "Then how do you know the difference between right and wrong?"  I was speechless.
 
2014-04-05 02:14:30 AM  

Ed Grubermann: The problem with that argument is that it is dishonest and uses loaded language to anger believers. It also leaves out other valid answers, such as "myth".


Lenny actually covered that pretty well, too. But CS Lewis posed it as a means to prove the divinity of Jesus, not to anger believers. It just fails on in depth analysis as we've seen, but it started as a logical argument at least.
 
2014-04-05 02:21:54 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Boojum2k: talkertopc: I'm an Atheist but I think people are jumping the gun in equating no religious affiliation with atheism. I don't know any other Atheists but I do know people who believe there is a God but claim not to believe in any religion, those people still practice some religious rituals (baptism, wedding) for cultural reasons.

I'm an agnostic atheist and Christmas is still my favorite holiday, for the "getting together with friends and family" aspect along with trying to surprise someone with a cool gift. Also, shopping is easy when you're a big guy in a leather jacket.

/or Amazon

You cannot be an agnostic atheist. You are either an Agnostic or an Atheist.


Maybe he believes aliens created us and not something more divine? Aliens aren't gods, but they can very likely be a higher power, so he might be agnostic and atheist.

/At least he isn't an autoparanoid schitzophrenic dyslexic agnostic insomniac
//they lie awake at night wondering if it might be the dog's out to get him.
 
2014-04-05 02:24:00 AM  

People_are_Idiots: Maybe he believes aliens created us and not something more divine?


Nope. It's a "I can't prove there isn't a God (see: proving a negative), but I don't believe there is one anyway, based on the evidence I have seen." No more than that.
 
2014-04-05 02:25:08 AM  

Ed Grubermann: Truther: 18%?
The atheists have won.
Guess I'll give up my belief in God now.
/since they are a majority and all

It's not about percentages. It's about what's true.


Until you start deciding the truth with weapons, that is.
 
2014-04-05 02:37:32 AM  
i.imgur.com

The only way to fight madness is with wisdom,
 
2014-04-05 03:11:02 AM  

doosh: As a gen-x'er I remember back in the 80's and early 90's when I had to think twice before admitting to someone I was an atheist. usually there was a gasp of disbelief but sometimes people would get visibly upset.


Also a gen-X'er, but since I live in the bible belt I still get those reactions sometimes.
 
2014-04-05 03:36:26 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Boojum2k: talkertopc: I'm an Atheist but I think people are jumping the gun in equating no religious affiliation with atheism. I don't know any other Atheists but I do know people who believe there is a God but claim not to believe in any religion, those people still practice some religious rituals (baptism, wedding) for cultural reasons.

I'm an agnostic atheist and Christmas is still my favorite holiday, for the "getting together with friends and family" aspect along with trying to surprise someone with a cool gift. Also, shopping is easy when you're a big guy in a leather jacket.

/or Amazon

You cannot be an agnostic atheist. You are either an Agnostic or an Atheist.


Don't you start.

Gnostic: knows god(s) exist. Root is from the greek gnosis meaning knowledge.
Agnostic: does not know if god(s) exist. lit. "without knowledge"

Theist: believes in god(s). Root from the greek theos meaning god.Comes from the sanskrit dyeus which means "sky".
Atheist: does not believe in god(s). lit "without god".

Apodeictic: can be proven. From the greek verb apodeiknunai "to demonstrate".
Non-apodeictic: cannot be proven.

So a non-apodeictic agnostic atheist is someone who has no belief in god(s) does not have knowledge whether or not gods exist and believes it cannot be proven.

An apodeictic gnostic theist is someone who believes in god(s), knows god(s) exist, and believes their existence can be proven.

Seriously, this is what they teach you first year religious studies. There's no need to muddy the conversation with vague language.

Capital-Letter-A Agnostic: pretentious, sanctimonious, contrarian twat with a keffiya who shiats on every discussion about religion and thinks that makes him look superior.
 
2014-04-05 04:47:30 AM  
Computers use electricity.

The internet runs on computers.

More internet usage means more computers are being used.

Therefore more electricity is being consumed.

I conclude that the devil is inside of electricity, and we shoul all unplug our toasters to bring our nation back to Jesus.
 
2014-04-05 04:49:45 AM  

acohn: doosh: As a gen-x'er I remember back in the 80's and early 90's when I had to think twice before admitting to someone I was an atheist. usually there was a gasp of disbelief but sometimes people would get visibly upset.

I once told a Muslim I was an atheist.  Without pausing, he asked, "Then how do you know the difference between right and wrong?"  I was speechless.


I hope you ended up having a conversation and learned that Muslims are human beings, and complex, and that the Muslim learned about different points of view.

//What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?
 
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