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(Social Progress Imperative)   How does your country rate on the Social Progress Index? Nope, not there. Look further down the list. Further... well at least you aren't Chad   (socialprogressimperative.org) divider line 195
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7915 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Apr 2014 at 7:21 AM (16 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-03 11:13:20 AM

Ecobuckeye: At least you ain't who?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x330]


Jesus. He plays at my local shopping centre every Tamworth Country Music Festival. He just ain't funny.
 
2014-04-03 11:18:22 AM

Greylight: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.

They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.

Yeah. After the flurry of news reports about that, I've been filing the FBAR. Ended up having a major brouhaha a couple of years ago with the IRS that lasted several months, involving lots of paperwork, nasty letters, and unpleasant phone conversations with unhelpful IRS personnel at various levels (and different offices that don't properly communicate with each other) of the hierarchy, before it all got finally straightened out. And that's with me being only a poor underpaid academic nobody. It's not like I was trying to exploit loopholes to hide vast wealth (I'd need wealth in order to do that).

Crap like this is why small-government conservatives are small-government.

Care to alert me as to what I might have missed?  This is my first year filing as an expat.

See a tax specialist.  Seriously.  I have friends with dual citizenship who have never personally lived or worked in the US but thought it would be beneficial to claim their US citizenship only to find themselves a few years later owing 7 figures in tax, fines, and penalties.


I'm a US citizen on a work permit in Canada.  Unfortunately, no one in my city does US taxes, and those that do elsewhere charge thousands.
 
2014-04-03 11:29:50 AM
Benevolent Misanthrope:

I'm a US citizen on a work permit in Canada.  Unfortunately, no one in my city does US taxes, and thos ...

Sorry to hear that, there is probably a good seasonal business idea in there for someone ;)    I hope you don't become too jaded by the popular anti US rhetoric sometimes heard here, deep down we are actually very fond of Americans, and defensive of them.  We mock and prod them in the hope of positive change and friendly rivalry, but they are OUR family to mock and prod!
 
2014-04-03 11:33:29 AM
So, I gather 'social metrics' is code for  tear down Western Civilization and set the Kraken free to eat children ..
 
2014-04-03 11:35:32 AM

Greylight: Benevolent Misanthrope:

I'm a US citizen on a work permit in Canada.  Unfortunately, no one in my city does US taxes, and thos ...

Sorry to hear that, there is probably a good seasonal business idea in there for someone ;)    I hope you don't become too jaded by the popular anti US rhetoric sometimes heard here, deep down we are actually very fond of Americans, and defensive of them.  We mock and prod them in the hope of positive change and friendly rivalry, but they are OUR family to mock and prod!


Oh - read above.  I've already been slammed today for pointing up that American exceptionalism is bullshiat and I prefer the True North Strong and Free. ;)
 
2014-04-03 11:36:39 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.

They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.

Yeah. After the flurry of news reports about that, I've been filing the FBAR. Ended up having a major brouhaha a couple of years ago with the IRS that lasted several months, involving lots of paperwork, nasty letters, and unpleasant phone conversations with unhelpful IRS personnel at various levels (and different offices that don't properly communicate with each other) of the hierarchy, before it all got finally straightened out. And that's with me being only a poor underpaid academic nobody. It's not like I was trying to exploit loopholes to hide vast wealth (I'd need wealth in order to do that).

Crap like this is why small-government conservatives are small-government.

Care to alert me as to what I might have missed?  This is my first year filing as an expat.



Bearing in mind that getting tax advice from a psychologist is about as good as getting psychotherapy from an accountant:

Are you single?  Because what caused my nightmares was issues involving dependents.  If you are single, then the 1040, 1116, and FBAR should be enough.  I couldn't find a good tax specialist in my area, so I peeked over the shoulder of another expat who had been in Canada for longer than I had.
 
2014-04-03 11:40:34 AM

Lady J: frozenhotchocolate: These studies are ultimately hard to judge because the U.S. is just so massive compared to any other first world developed nation. For people to say that the U.S. is somehow fading is foolish. The United States has demographics on its side. Europe in the future will face some major issues of an aging population. Canada is great, i have a bunch of family there. But Canada's existence so tied to the U.S. that it will always be younger brother. As we go, they go.

it would be nice if we could start thinking in terms of global civilisation and population.

we need to start thinking about water and carbon and pollutants from a global perspective n all

won't happen though, even liberals don't value brown people thousands of miles away as highly as they value whitey down the road who eats battery farmed eggs and doesnt recycle

/not quite sure where I went with the last bit, but yagetme


I guess the question is how would this even begin to be applied? We are not responsible for the welfare of others, only to our own citizens. We have problems enough with our own nation, to boot, so there's not exactly a glut of stuff that we could do to fix the world without basically invoking imperialism, either.

We can always be better citizens as far as living more responsibly, but we cannot, and should not, dictate to others or impose our will on sovereign nations.
 
2014-04-03 11:43:34 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Oh - read above. I've already been slammed today for pointing up that American exceptionalism is bullshiat and I prefer the True North Strong and Free. ;)


I think the issue is more along the lines of badmouthing while at the same time saying "I'm getting the fark out". Doesn't help anyone if you're not hanging around to help solve the problem.
 
2014-04-03 11:58:02 AM

Kit Fister: Lady J: frozenhotchocolate: These studies are ultimately hard to judge because the U.S. is just so massive compared to any other first world developed nation. For people to say that the U.S. is somehow fading is foolish. The United States has demographics on its side. Europe in the future will face some major issues of an aging population. Canada is great, i have a bunch of family there. But Canada's existence so tied to the U.S. that it will always be younger brother. As we go, they go.

it would be nice if we could start thinking in terms of global civilisation and population.

we need to start thinking about water and carbon and pollutants from a global perspective n all

won't happen though, even liberals don't value brown people thousands of miles away as highly as they value whitey down the road who eats battery farmed eggs and doesnt recycle

/not quite sure where I went with the last bit, but yagetme

I guess the question is how would this even begin to be applied? We are not responsible for the welfare of others, only to our own citizens. We have problems enough with our own nation, to boot, so there's not exactly a glut of stuff that we could do to fix the world without basically invoking imperialism, either.

We can always be better citizens as far as living more responsibly, but we cannot, and should not, dictate to others or impose our will on sovereign nations.


I disagree very strongly with two points.  The conventional wisdom has always been that as the US goes so goes Canada, but that doesn't seem to be playing out anymore, it breaks my heart to see the economic disasters taking place the last few years in the south, and I am grateful we haven't felt the same impact.  The second point that really irks me is the notion of lack of responsibility to others.  Isolationism is running high again in the US, at the same time imperialist rhetoric of policing the world is ever present.  More to the point though, we live in a global community these days and cannot burry our head in the sand to the world, nor can we try and impose our interests on others without consequence.
 
2014-04-03 12:01:00 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Rev. Skarekroe: Yeah, well we have a little thing here called "freedom".  It means we don't need the government to look after our "social progress", whatever that means lol.  If you like those other coutnries so much MOVE THERE!!!! And take Obama with you!

I did.  I make more, I have more opportunity, I have health care guaranteed, I can marry whom I choose, and I don't have to put up with things like a full governmental shutdown because some Congressmen decided to throw a collective tantrum.

I know it was a troll (2/10, by the way), but there's a reason the US should stop making that argument.  Lots of people are indeed moving away, and are renouncing their US citizenship in larger numbers, too.


For someone who is so happy and secure, you spend a lot of time around here ragging on the US. You took your ball and left, and yet, you can't seem to let go.
 
2014-04-03 12:06:55 PM

Son of Thunder: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.

They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.

Yeah. After the flurry of news reports about that, I've been filing the FBAR. Ended up having a major brouhaha a couple of years ago with the IRS that lasted several months, involving lots of paperwork, nasty letters, and unpleasant phone conversations with unhelpful IRS personnel at various levels (and different offices that don't properly communicate with each other) of the hierarchy, before it all got finally straightened out. And that's with me being only a poor underpaid academic nobody. It's not like I was trying to exploit loopholes to hide vast wealth (I'd need wealth in order to do that).

Crap like this is why small-government conservatives are small-government.

Care to alert me as to what I might have missed?  This is my first year filing as an expat.


Bearing in mind that getting tax advice from a psychologist is about as good as getting psychotherapy from an accountant:

Are you single?  Because what caused my nightmares was issues involving dependents.  If you are single, then the 1040, 1116, and FBAR should be enough.  I couldn't find a good tax specialist in my area, so I peeked over the shoulder of another expat who had been in C ...


Ah.

No worries there, single and no dependents.  I have several other forms relating to the Northern Living Deduction, provicial tax, and so on, but no dependents.
 
2014-04-03 12:08:37 PM

Greylight: I disagree very strongly with two points. The conventional wisdom has always been that as the US goes so goes Canada, but that doesn't seem to be playing out anymore, it breaks my heart to see the economic disasters taking place the last few years in the south, and I am grateful we haven't felt the same impact. The second point that really irks me is the notion of lack of responsibility to others. Isolationism is running high again in the US, at the same time imperialist rhetoric of policing the world is ever present. More to the point though, we live in a global community these days and cannot burry our head in the sand to the world, nor can we try and impose our interests on others without consequence.


So, what do you propose we do? I'm not against being a good global citizen by helping where we can, but at the same time, I'm not in favor of going to extremes whereby we are influencing or being influenced by others too heavily.  I like being a good neighbor, but I don't want an HOA, as it were.
 
2014-04-03 12:13:01 PM

Kit Fister: Benevolent Misanthrope: Oh - read above. I've already been slammed today for pointing up that American exceptionalism is bullshiat and I prefer the True North Strong and Free. ;)

I think the issue is more along the lines of badmouthing while at the same time saying "I'm getting the fark out". Doesn't help anyone if you're not hanging around to help solve the problem.


You act like I sought to leave, all "fark you" and shiat.  I accepted a job.  My former library had to cut jobs, and I was laid off.  Like ALOT of people in libraries.  I needed a job, immediately.  I don't think staying in the US as a dependent of the State would do much toward fixing the problems.  I don't think moving to rural Minnesota at half my previous salary would help much either.

And frankly, a lifetime of marching, protesting, standing up, sitting in, writing, reasoning and "processing" for equal rights is a helluvalot more than most will do.  So sue me if I said, this once, "You know, I'd really like to have a roof over my head, so I'll go where I can get a job without having to be on the market for 6 months and endure total financial ruin."

I'm sure you would have done the courageous thing and stayed, though.
 
2014-04-03 12:15:46 PM

Kit Fister: Greylight: I disagree very strongly with two points. The conventional wisdom has always been that as the US goes so goes Canada, but that doesn't seem to be playing out anymore, it breaks my heart to see the economic disasters taking place the last few years in the south, and I am grateful we haven't felt the same impact. The second point that really irks me is the notion of lack of responsibility to others. Isolationism is running high again in the US, at the same time imperialist rhetoric of policing the world is ever present. More to the point though, we live in a global community these days and cannot burry our head in the sand to the world, nor can we try and impose our interests on others without consequence.

So, what do you propose we do? I'm not against being a good global citizen by helping where we can, but at the same time, I'm not in favor of going to extremes whereby we are influencing or being influenced by others too heavily.  I like being a good neighbor, but I don't want an HOA, as it were.


The first step is an honest assessment of ones actions and ethnocentric bias', and I do not mean some public display of contriteness, but rather letting go of the idea of American Exceptionalism for the good of the nation, not simply for others.  It is in fact in the US' best interests.
 
2014-04-03 12:18:17 PM

Nabb1: Benevolent Misanthrope: Rev. Skarekroe: Yeah, well we have a little thing here called "freedom".  It means we don't need the government to look after our "social progress", whatever that means lol.  If you like those other coutnries so much MOVE THERE!!!! And take Obama with you!

I did.  I make more, I have more opportunity, I have health care guaranteed, I can marry whom I choose, and I don't have to put up with things like a full governmental shutdown because some Congressmen decided to throw a collective tantrum.

I know it was a troll (2/10, by the way), but there's a reason the US should stop making that argument.  Lots of people are indeed moving away, and are renouncing their US citizenship in larger numbers, too.

For someone who is so happy and secure, you spend a lot of time around here ragging on the US. You took your ball and left, and yet, you can't seem to let go.


Cant fault someone for doing what is best for themselves
 
2014-04-03 12:19:40 PM

Nabb1: Benevolent Misanthrope: Rev. Skarekroe: Yeah, well we have a little thing here called "freedom".  It means we don't need the government to look after our "social progress", whatever that means lol.  If you like those other coutnries so much MOVE THERE!!!! And take Obama with you!

I did.  I make more, I have more opportunity, I have health care guaranteed, I can marry whom I choose, and I don't have to put up with things like a full governmental shutdown because some Congressmen decided to throw a collective tantrum.

I know it was a troll (2/10, by the way), but there's a reason the US should stop making that argument.  Lots of people are indeed moving away, and are renouncing their US citizenship in larger numbers, too.

For someone who is so happy and secure, you spend a lot of time around here ragging on the US. You took your ball and left, and yet, you can't seem to let go.


I am still a citizen.  I look at my birth country with different eyes, since I now have a different view.  American exceptionalism needs to go.  It's a global economy, and travel is now easy and (relatively) cheap.  So, people are going to start treating borders as suggestions rather than defining limits.

And for the record, I didn't take my ball and go.  After I had been working all my adult life to try to get the rules enforced the same for everyone, the ref grabbed my ball, knifed it, grinned and said, "Tough shiat.  You can play in the game 6 months from now or so.  Or you can tie one arm behind you and play that way".  So I got into a game where I could play.  And I found it to be a much fairer game, indeed.

But can you blame me for talking about the US?  I mean really - how many stories on Fark are about Canada?
 
2014-04-03 12:28:29 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Nabb1: Benevolent Misanthrope: Rev. Skarekroe: Yeah, well we have a little thing here called "freedom".  It means we don't need the government to look after our "social progress", whatever that means lol.  If you like those other coutnries so much MOVE THERE!!!! And take Obama with you!

I did.  I make more, I have more opportunity, I have health care guaranteed, I can marry whom I choose, and I don't have to put up with things like a full governmental shutdown because some Congressmen decided to throw a collective tantrum.

I know it was a troll (2/10, by the way), but there's a reason the US should stop making that argument.  Lots of people are indeed moving away, and are renouncing their US citizenship in larger numbers, too.

For someone who is so happy and secure, you spend a lot of time around here ragging on the US. You took your ball and left, and yet, you can't seem to let go.

I am still a citizen.  I look at my birth country with different eyes, since I now have a different view.  American exceptionalism needs to go.  It's a global economy, and travel is now easy and (relatively) cheap.  So, people are going to start treating borders as suggestions rather than defining limits.

And for the record, I didn't take my ball and go.  After I had been working all my adult life to try to get the rules enforced the same for everyone, the ref grabbed my ball, knifed it, grinned and said, "Tough shiat.  You can play in the game 6 months from now or so.  Or you can tie one arm behind you and play that way".  So I got into a game where I could play.  And I found it to be a much fairer game, indeed.

But can you blame me for talking about the US?  I mean really - how many stories on Fark are about Canada?


When you are a mouse sleeping with an elephant, one tends to focus on the elephant.  Well, since I am talking about honest self assessments and all I guess I should pony up and say that I do my best to turn any discussion to one about Canada :p
 
2014-04-03 12:29:13 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Nabb1: Benevolent Misanthrope: Rev. Skarekroe: Yeah, well we have a little thing here called "freedom".  It means we don't need the government to look after our "social progress", whatever that means lol.  If you like those other coutnries so much MOVE THERE!!!! And take Obama with you!

I did.  I make more, I have more opportunity, I have health care guaranteed, I can marry whom I choose, and I don't have to put up with things like a full governmental shutdown because some Congressmen decided to throw a collective tantrum.

I know it was a troll (2/10, by the way), but there's a reason the US should stop making that argument.  Lots of people are indeed moving away, and are renouncing their US citizenship in larger numbers, too.

For someone who is so happy and secure, you spend a lot of time around here ragging on the US. You took your ball and left, and yet, you can't seem to let go.

I am still a citizen.  I look at my birth country with different eyes, since I now have a different view.  American exceptionalism needs to go.  It's a global economy, and travel is now easy and (relatively) cheap.  So, people are going to start treating borders as suggestions rather than defining limits.

And for the record, I didn't take my ball and go.  After I had been working all my adult life to try to get the rules enforced the same for everyone, the ref grabbed my ball, knifed it, grinned and said, "Tough shiat.  You can play in the game 6 months from now or so.  Or you can tie one arm behind you and play that way".  So I got into a game where I could play.  And I found it to be a much fairer game, indeed.

But can you blame me for talking about the US?  I mean really - how many stories on Fark are about Canada?


Sure, I get that. It just seems that you express a lot of negativity. Sorry things weren't going your way here and that upon reflection, you don't seem to find anything positive to discuss about your native country.
 
2014-04-03 12:29:27 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: But can you blame me for talking about the US?  I mean really - how many stories on Fark are about Canada?


Just because there is a story on fark does not mean comments are required.
 
2014-04-03 12:37:17 PM

trappedspirit: Benevolent Misanthrope: But can you blame me for talking about the US?  I mean really - how many stories on Fark are about Canada?

Just because there is a story on fark does not mean comments are required.


I bet you read Playboy for the articles too. ;)
 
2014-04-03 12:40:13 PM

Greylight: trappedspirit: Benevolent Misanthrope: But can you blame me for talking about the US?  I mean really - how many stories on Fark are about Canada?

Just because there is a story on fark does not mean comments are required.

I bet you read Playboy for the articles too. ;)


Nope, I draw on their bodies and cut the eyes out of the photographs just like everyone else.
 
2014-04-03 12:42:27 PM
Meh, this is no different than "Top 100 songs of all time" or "Bottom 100 movies".
 
2014-04-03 12:46:45 PM

Nabb1: Sure, I get that. It just seems that you express a lot of negativity. Sorry things weren't going your way here and that upon reflection, you don't seem to find anything positive to discuss about your native country.


I guess I feel like the positive goes without saying.  Retail Nirvana.  Barbecue - in any style you can imagine.  Every biome you could want to visit.  The Grand Canyon.  Jazz.  Blues. Every cuisine you can name.  Gibson guitars.  Grits.  Hobie cats.

But, unfortunately, also a really bad health care system so watered down as to be useless, a national legislature that is openly owned by business, the Tea Party, marriage equality in far fewer than half the states and judges fighting tooth and nail every day to turn back the clock... And America can't do poutine to save its life.  Loaded cheese fries make up for it, though.

Don't get me wrong, I love America.  But I also see the faults - much more clearly now that I'm not in the middle of them - and if that makes people uncomfortable, well, tough.  I think the best thing Americans can do for the country is jettison the whole American exceptionalism thing.  Model health care on France - America could do it, and even better.  Make public education 16 grades, through an undergraduate degree, and make graduate degrees free IF you test in solely on merit.  If people don't want to (or aren't suited to) go to college, their 4 years after high school can be a trades apprenticeship.  Dropping out after Grade 12 would be allowable, but don't be surprised if you can't get a good job on a grade 12 diploma.  America could do this, if it wanted to.  The ingrained belief that America is somehow special is the root cause of alot of entropy.

America, with its population of risk-takers, eternal optimists and disputatious extroverts, could be great again.  Not a super-power, those days are over.  But certainly the first nation on the world stage for reasons OTHER than they have more weapons.
 
2014-04-03 12:48:14 PM

Rev. Skarekroe: Yeah, well we have a little thing here called "freedom".  It means we don't need the government to look after our "social progress", whatever that means lol.  If you like those other coutnries so much MOVE THERE!!!! And take Obama with you!


Umm...(bout the 2:47 mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHSXUS0_1c
 
2014-04-03 01:17:18 PM
Interesting how a lot of the top countries have populations smaller than most major US school districts student head count, just saying is easy to be all socially and givey when you don't have hundreds of millions of people and waves of immigrants and refugees pouring in. Though talking with friend in Finland they are getting really fed up with the small number of Somali Immigrants moving in an mooching off their utopia.
 
2014-04-03 01:50:40 PM

Meez: Interesting how a lot of the top countries have populations smaller than most major US school districts student head count, just saying is easy to be all socially and givey when you don't have hundreds of millions of people and waves of immigrants and refugees pouring in. Though talking with friend in Finland they are getting really fed up with the small number of Somali Immigrants moving in an mooching off their utopia.


That there is what I would call another isolationist fallacy.  It is easier to immigrate to most of those countries then it is to the US.  Take Canada for instance, when you dig into the facts beyond the gut speculation, most immigrants are hard working contributors to the economy, not a drain.
 
2014-04-03 02:07:49 PM

Greylight: Meez: Interesting how a lot of the top countries have populations smaller than most major US school districts student head count, just saying is easy to be all socially and givey when you don't have hundreds of millions of people and waves of immigrants and refugees pouring in. Though talking with friend in Finland they are getting really fed up with the small number of Somali Immigrants moving in an mooching off their utopia.

That there is what I would call another isolationist fallacy.  It is easier to immigrate to most of those countries then it is to the US. Take Canada for instance, when you dig into the facts beyond the gut speculation, most immigrants are hard working contributors to the economy, not a drain.


About 3.6% of the people in the US are illegal immigrants, 12.5 % are legal immigrants, and as of 2010 abotu a 1/4 of people under 18 are immigrants opr children of immigrants.

I would be shocked if any of the countries you are looking at had higher numbers in any of those categories, I would be flabbergasted if one of them could beat all three.
 
2014-04-03 02:14:08 PM

liam76: Greylight: Meez: Interesting how a lot of the top countries have populations smaller than most major US school districts student head count, just saying is easy to be all socially and givey when you don't have hundreds of millions of people and waves of immigrants and refugees pouring in. Though talking with friend in Finland they are getting really fed up with the small number of Somali Immigrants moving in an mooching off their utopia.

That there is what I would call another isolationist fallacy.  It is easier to immigrate to most of those countries then it is to the US. Take Canada for instance, when you dig into the facts beyond the gut speculation, most immigrants are hard working contributors to the economy, not a drain.

About 3.6% of the people in the US are illegal immigrants, 12.5 % are legal immigrants, and as of 2010 abotu a 1/4 of people under 18 are immigrants opr children of immigrants.

I would be shocked if any of the countries you are looking at had higher numbers in any of those categories, I would be flabbergasted if one of them could beat all three.


If you want to stand behind the notion that immigrants (not refugees) are a net drain on any given state, the onus is on you to prove it.  Don't rely on others bigotry to do the work for you.
 
2014-04-03 02:27:57 PM

Greylight: If you want to stand behind the notion that immigrants (not refugees) are a net drain on any given state, the onus is on you to prove it.


I never said that. I actually think legal immigrants are a huge resource to the US. Illegal immigrants on the other hand not so much.

But lets get back to the facts you made a claim about the ease of immigration in response to a claim about the level of immigration in the US. You are wrong about the level of immigration, and you are wrong about the ease.


If you are actually going to do the digging to learn, rather than claim anyone who says you don't have the whole picture is a bigot, you will learn that there are some countries that beat us in % of immigrants, however they are all much harder to immigrate into.

Take New Zealand. It does beat the US in % of immigrants, yet how many of them can come in with no money and little or no english, and not skills?

And before you jump ahead and try and cry racist or bigot over that statement, I am ok with a hardworking guy coming to the US who is in that boat, as long as he does so legally.
 
2014-04-03 02:32:28 PM

liam76: Greylight: If you want to stand behind the notion that immigrants (not refugees) are a net drain on any given state, the onus is on you to prove it.

I never said that. I actually think legal immigrants are a huge resource to the US. Illegal immigrants on the other hand not so much.

But lets get back to the facts you made a claim about the ease of immigration in response to a claim about the level of immigration in the US. You are wrong about the level of immigration, and you are wrong about the ease.


If you are actually going to do the digging to learn, rather than claim anyone who says you don't have the whole picture is a bigot, you will learn that there are some countries that beat us in % of immigrants, however they are all much harder to immigrate into.

Take New Zealand. It does beat the US in % of immigrants, yet how many of them can come in with no money and little or no english, and not skills?

And before you jump ahead and try and cry racist or bigot over that statement, I am ok with a hardworking guy coming to the US who is in that boat, as long as he does so legally.


OK, so let's narrow the scope and eliminate the whole emotionally charged bigotry thang.  Do you really want to stand behind the idea that it is easier to immigrate to the US then it is to Canada?
 
2014-04-03 02:42:28 PM

Greylight: Do you really want to stand behind the idea that it is easier to immigrate to the US then it is to Canada?


11 million illegal immigrants say yes.

Now if you want to frame it just in terms of "legal immigrants" that is fine, but then you are missing the legit problems Meez pointed out.

Also, I am still going to say it is easier. IIRC (and it has been a while since I worked with canadians and we talked about this) they have similiar "deald" for family members, but as the US has more immigrants that means more people can avail themselves of the special rules. Canada also has a two language requirement vice the US's 1.

Also, if we can move beyond Canada for a moment, most of the countries on the list don't have unconditional birthright citizenship like the US and Canada.
 
2014-04-03 02:43:13 PM

liam76: deald


deals...


fark.
 
2014-04-03 02:52:02 PM

liam76: liam76: deald

deals...


fark.


S'all good my man, I know what you are getting at.  But I would challenge you to look at the common rhetoric thrown about that it is too easy too immigrate to Canada, and US security is threatened by it, or that many folks who are refused entry to the US immigrate instead to Canada as a second choice.  We could draw this out a little longer with some stats but really this isn't going to propel the discussion further.  You and I both agree that immigration is a net positive, you are now changing the scope it seems to illegal immigrants being the cause of poor performance in measures like these DESPITE an advantage in cherry picking legal immigrants.

Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to self deceive.
 
2014-04-03 03:04:33 PM

Greylight: But I would challenge you to look at the common rhetoric thrown about that it is too easy too immigrate to Canada, and US security is threatened by it, or that many folks who are refused entry to the US immigrate instead to Canada as a second choice.


That rhetoric is only common in derpistan.

I am curious if you have numbers of people who switch from US to Canada.


Greylight: You and I both agree that immigration is a net positive, you are now changing the scope it seems to illegal immigrants being the cause of poor performance in measures like these DESPITE an advantage in cherry picking legal immigrants


It isn't a change of scope. The conversation started about immigrants. I am asking you to clarify exactly what you mean.

Every country gets to "cherry pick" legal immigrants. Very few have to worry about illegals on the scale the US does. So if you are going to include illegals on the scale you can't really find and apples to apples comparison until you show me a country with the same level of the problem. If you are just going to ignore illegals, then you are tossing out factors you don't want to account for.
 
2014-04-03 03:19:28 PM

liam76: Greylight: But I would challenge you to look at the common rhetoric thrown about that it is too easy too immigrate to Canada, and US security is threatened by it, or that many folks who are refused entry to the US immigrate instead to Canada as a second choice.

That rhetoric is only common in derpistan.

I am curious if you have numbers of people who switch from US to Canada.

Greylight: You and I both agree that immigration is a net positive, you are now changing the scope it seems to illegal immigrants being the cause of poor performance in measures like these DESPITE an advantage in cherry picking legal immigrants

It isn't a change of scope. The conversation started about immigrants. I am asking you to clarify exactly what you mean.


You're an intelligent person lian76, let's not devolve this into a pedantic demand for stats.  While I have read and evaluated studies in the past I do not keep them on hand, and nor do you.   I can confidently say it is a given on the world stage that it is easier to immigrate to Canada then it is to the US, and it is common knowledge.

liam76:
Every country gets to "cherry pick" legal immigrants. Very few have to worry about illegals on the scale the US does. So if you are going to include illegals on the scale you can't really find and apples to apples comparison until you show me a country with the same level of the problem. If you are just going to ignore illegals, then you are tossing out factors you don't want to account for.

Here we get to the crux of the matter don't we.  Illegal immigration.  This really is the crutch Meez is clinging too.  Don't go down with him my friend, you're better then that.
 
2014-04-03 03:24:13 PM

Greylight: I can confidently say it is a given on the world stage that it is easier to immigrate to Canada then it is to the US, and it is common knowledge.


I am not claiming to be an expert, nor have I greatly researched it, but I used to work abroad with other expats, and the consensous was that it was easier to becoem canadian if you have money. They have since made it easier in the US if you have money. Now that "consensous:" is hardly based in fact, but it is going to hold more sway than your claim of common knowledge.

I am more than willing to drop it, but you haven't proved your claim.


Greylight: Here we get to the crux of the matter don't we. Illegal immigration. This really is the crutch Meez is clinging too. Don't go down with him my friend, you're better then that


Do you really think illegal immigration isn't a serious social problem?
 
2014-04-03 03:30:46 PM

liam76: Greylight: I can confidently say it is a given on the world stage that it is easier to immigrate to Canada then it is to the US, and it is common knowledge.

I am not claiming to be an expert, nor have I greatly researched it, but I used to work abroad with other expats, and the consensous was that it was easier to becoem canadian if you have money. They have since made it easier in the US if you have money. Now that "consensous:" is hardly based in fact, but it is going to hold more sway than your claim of common knowledge.

I am more than willing to drop it, but you haven't proved your claim.


Again Lian76, I am not the one trying to unskew the results of this research to meet a particular world view.  The onus is on you if you wish to be pedantic.

Greylight: Here we get to the crux of the matter don't we. Illegal immigration. This really is the crutch Meez is clinging too. Don't go down with him my friend, you're better then that

Do you really think illegal immigration isn't a serious social problem?


Do you really think illegal immigration is the root of the problem?
 
2014-04-03 03:58:30 PM

liam76: Greylight: Meez: Interesting how a lot of the top countries have populations smaller than most major US school districts student head count, just saying is easy to be all socially and givey when you don't have hundreds of millions of people and waves of immigrants and refugees pouring in. Though talking with friend in Finland they are getting really fed up with the small number of Somali Immigrants moving in an mooching off their utopia.

That there is what I would call another isolationist fallacy.  It is easier to immigrate to most of those countries then it is to the US. Take Canada for instance, when you dig into the facts beyond the gut speculation, most immigrants are hard working contributors to the economy, not a drain.

About 3.6% of the people in the US are illegal immigrants, 12.5 % are legal immigrants, and as of 2010 abotu a 1/4 of people under 18 are immigrants opr children of immigrants.

I would be shocked if any of the countries you are looking at had higher numbers in any of those categories, I would be flabbergasted if one of them could beat all three.


About a quarter of Australia's population is foreign born, given such a large foreign-born population I'd be amazed if less than a quarter of Aussie kids have at least one foreign born parent..

No data on illegal immigration, although despite an absurdly large mostly uninhabited coastline across the north the logistics of illegally immigrating are a bit tougher than the US faces. So the US probably wins on that one.
 
2014-04-03 04:03:17 PM

Target Builder: liam76: Greylight: Meez: Interesting how a lot of the top countries have populations smaller than most major US school districts student head count, just saying is easy to be all socially and givey when you don't have hundreds of millions of people and waves of immigrants and refugees pouring in. Though talking with friend in Finland they are getting really fed up with the small number of Somali Immigrants moving in an mooching off their utopia.

That there is what I would call another isolationist fallacy.  It is easier to immigrate to most of those countries then it is to the US. Take Canada for instance, when you dig into the facts beyond the gut speculation, most immigrants are hard working contributors to the economy, not a drain.

About 3.6% of the people in the US are illegal immigrants, 12.5 % are legal immigrants, and as of 2010 abotu a 1/4 of people under 18 are immigrants opr children of immigrants.

I would be shocked if any of the countries you are looking at had higher numbers in any of those categories, I would be flabbergasted if one of them could beat all three.

About a quarter of Australia's population is foreign born, given such a large foreign-born population I'd be amazed if less than a quarter of Aussie kids have at least one foreign born parent..

No data on illegal immigration, although despite an absurdly large mostly uninhabited coastline across the north the logistics of illegally immigrating are a bit tougher than the US faces. So the US probably wins on that one.


The question remains, is illegal immigration the root of the problem?
 
2014-04-03 04:06:57 PM
Time for refreshments - so I'll post my reply first.  Three words ... economy of scale.
 
2014-04-03 05:56:30 PM

Greylight: The onus is on you if you wish to be pedantic.


You made a claim about immigration, yes or no?

You have failed to back it up, yes or no?


Greylight: Do you really think illegal immigration is the root of the problem?


Did I claim that?

I think the scale is worthless, I was just weighing in when I saw some bullshiat flying, if you don't want to address the BS, that is fine, but please stop making up arguments and assigning them to me.
 
2014-04-03 07:08:38 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Nabb1: Sure, I get that. It just seems that you express a lot of negativity. Sorry things weren't going your way here and that upon reflection, you don't seem to find anything positive to discuss about your native country.

I guess I feel like the positive goes without saying.  Retail Nirvana.  Barbecue - in any style you can imagine.  Every biome you could want to visit.  The Grand Canyon.  Jazz.  Blues. Every cuisine you can name.  Gibson guitars.  Grits.  Hobie cats.

But, unfortunately, also a really bad health care system so watered down as to be useless, a national legislature that is openly owned by business, the Tea Party, marriage equality in far fewer than half the states and judges fighting tooth and nail every day to turn back the clock... And America can't do poutine to save its life.  Loaded cheese fries make up for it, though.

Don't get me wrong, I love America.  But I also see the faults - much more clearly now that I'm not in the middle of them - and if that makes people uncomfortable, well, tough.  I think the best thing Americans can do for the country is jettison the whole American exceptionalism thing.  Model health care on France - America could do it, and even better.  Make public education 16 grades, through an undergraduate degree, and make graduate degrees free IF you test in solely on merit.  If people don't want to (or aren't suited to) go to college, their 4 years after high school can be a trades apprenticeship.  Dropping out after Grade 12 would be allowable, but don't be surprised if you can't get a good job on a grade 12 diploma.  America could do this, if it wanted to.  The ingrained belief that America is somehow special is the root cause of alot of entropy.

America, with its population of risk-takers, eternal optimists and disputatious extroverts, could be great again.  Not a super-power, those days are over.  But certainly the first nation on the world stage for reasons OTHER than they have more weapons.


I get it, and i apologize for being rude.
 
2014-04-03 07:18:19 PM

Kit Fister: I get it, and i apologize for being rude.


Hey, now.  No being civil - this is Fark!

/Apology accepted. :)
 
2014-04-03 08:04:53 PM

liam76: Greylight: The onus is on you if you wish to be pedantic.

You made a claim about immigration, yes or no?

You have failed to back it up, yes or no?


Greylight: Do you really think illegal immigration is the root of the problem?

Did I claim that?

I think the scale is worthless, I was just weighing in when I saw some bullshiat flying, if you don't want to address the BS, that is fine, but please stop making up arguments and assigning them to me.


Boring!  Good day sir.

/I said ... GOOD DAY!
 
2014-04-04 01:10:56 AM

nickdaisy: Complete rubbish based on the notion that only states can impart progress. Countries like Niger and Mozambique score high because their impotent lawmaking bodies pass cookie cutter, UN-approved legislation that's never actually enforced.

This is a wonderful indication of why one should look skeptically at any study that suggests the USA is less than progressive. We've never been a tyrannical state that rams supposed social progress own peoples' throats (well, until recently).


You still aren't. The US (or at least parts of the it) is well ahead of many if not most others when it comes to gay rights and legalizing of marijuana.
 
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