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(Social Progress Imperative)   How does your country rate on the Social Progress Index? Nope, not there. Look further down the list. Further... well at least you aren't Chad   (socialprogressimperative.org) divider line 195
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7920 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Apr 2014 at 7:21 AM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-03 09:26:05 AM

Alonjar: dersk: The SEC is such a pain in the ass that I'm finally getting close to renouncing my US citizenship...

I'm curious what it is that you're trying to do that conflicts with the SEC so much...


The SEC and IRS have changed reporting rules so much that it's virtually impossible for a US Person (that's the official term, at least here in Holland) to open an investment account at all. All but one Dutch bank (including the one I work for in the Securities group, ironically) won't accept Americans as customers.
 
2014-04-03 09:26:28 AM
We're in the top 20!  USA USA USA!
 
2014-04-03 09:27:20 AM

whosits_112: Benevolent Misanthrope: sithon: The PRK is higher in most metrics than the USA ? Something wrong there.

1. PRK is not on the list.
2. Korea, Republic of (South Korea) scores lower than the US on 2 out of 3 metrics, which is not "most"

Nice try.  Do you work for the GOP as a statistics unskewer?  If not, you should apply.

That said, my country outranks the US.  Which is why I'm here - the USA is no longer the Land of Opportunity and is on its way, I fear, to being a second-tier nation.  Perhaps third tier within my lifetime, if the GOP/ Tea Party keep it up.

You seem to have a good hate-on for the US. Instead of trying to make it better, you ran to Canada and instantly claim it as "your" country. Not everyone can have that ability to jump ship.


It was an impressive use of "opportunity" , wasn't it?
 
2014-04-03 09:27:21 AM

culculhen: way south: A number of the top placers are fairly rigid and monochromatic societies with healthy economies.
Considering our current situation, I'd say our position isn't something to be ashamed of.

Seriously, tell us more about those filth multi-chromes keeping the monochromatic part of the US down in the ranking!

We should do something to celebrate and promote monochrome culture to combat it. Something visual so people could see the importance of it. Some kind of uniform without color would do nicely... Maybe some hood that covers the face too? I see real potential in such an organization. Who is with Way South and me?


 
We already do alot to combat your style of bigotry, and we're better off than most places, but nations without a similar cultural background that are well off economically (like Japan) don't have the same hurdles as those with extreme wealth inequality or cultural mixing.
Try living in many of those places while black, gay, or wearing a tattoo and your personal experience will vary greatly from the average.

/In short, the three reasons I won't bother going to Japan anytime soon.
 
2014-04-03 09:28:15 AM
Lorde's "Royals" must have bumped NZ up to #1.
 
2014-04-03 09:30:12 AM

some_beer_drinker: I don't know, 7th seems not so bad.

/Canadian, eh


Yup. I looked at it and thought "1st in places that aren't Scandinavia. Looks good to me."

Benevolent Misanthrope: I haven;t been here long enough to start making that decision - and I may change my tune when it comes time to fill in the forms. But if I get Canadian citizenship, I doubt I'll hang on to my US citizenship, if I don't intend to go back, ever.


You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.

On the other hand, I'm choosing NOT to get my American citizenship for probably similar socio-political reasons, so I understand your point.
 
2014-04-03 09:30:26 AM
These studies are ultimately hard to judge because the U.S. is just so massive compared to any other first world developed nation. For people to say that the U.S. is somehow fading is foolish. The United States has demographics on its side. Europe in the future will face some major issues of an aging population. Canada is great, i have a bunch of family there. But Canada's existence so tied to the U.S. that it will always be younger brother. As we go, they go.
 
2014-04-03 09:34:43 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: The US is the only nation that requires expats who earned no money in the US to pay income tax.


And avoiding taxes is as American as baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet.
 
2014-04-03 09:36:19 AM

Carousel Beast: nickdaisy: Complete rubbish based on the notion that only states can impart progress. Countries like Niger and Mozambique score high because their impotent lawmaking bodies pass cookie cutter, UN-approved legislation that's never actually enforced.

This is a wonderful indication of why one should look skeptically at any study that suggests the USA is less than progressive. We've never been a tyrannical state that rams supposed social progress own peoples' throats (well, until recently).

I loved BM's complaint about "Land of Opportunity", when she's one of the loudest shouting for "equality of condition".


Come again?  So... I should pass up a great job offer in another country because it's not "AMERICA!  F*CK YEAH!"?  Or what?  I don't see the point, other than, "she took a job elsewhere, so she's a traitor to the cause of equality" or something.  Not really sure, actually.

/And please link the thread where I loudly shouted the phrase "equality of condition".  I'm honestly not even sure what that means.
 
2014-04-03 09:39:57 AM
Strangely there's no measurement for innovation, invention, and cultural production in the metrics.  Though I guess that's not really all that important when you've already made your mind up as far as what makes a country better than another.
 
2014-04-03 09:42:53 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: whosits_112: Benevolent Misanthrope: sithon: The PRK is higher in most metrics than the USA ? Something wrong there.

1. PRK is not on the list.
2. Korea, Republic of (South Korea) scores lower than the US on 2 out of 3 metrics, which is not "most"

Nice try.  Do you work for the GOP as a statistics unskewer?  If not, you should apply.

That said, my country outranks the US.  Which is why I'm here - the USA is no longer the Land of Opportunity and is on its way, I fear, to being a second-tier nation.  Perhaps third tier within my lifetime, if the GOP/ Tea Party keep it up.

You seem to have a good hate-on for the US. Instead of trying to make it better, you ran to Canada and instantly claim it as "your" country. Not everyone can have that ability to jump ship.

No, actually, I came to Canada for a job opportunity - because in the US, libraries are being cut left right and center. It's part of the rightward-moving culture of anti-intellectualism.  But rather than sitting on my fat ass complaining about my lot in life, I chose to do something about it.  Once I was out of the standard US masturbatory haze I realized that the US is not all I was told it was cracked up to be.  Other countries are indeed better.

It saddens me deeply that my birth country is being farked up by an entity so vapid and clueless as the Tea Party and a weak Democratic Party that keeps trying to make them see reason.  It worries me that the US is declining more and more each day.  But the market has shifted.  It's global now.  I have the freedom to put my skills on the market in places where they are appreciated, wanted, and, yes, fairly compensated.

No one in Canada has ever objected to my calling my country of residence "my country", by the way.  That's how it works here.  So get over your jingoistic self.


Nothing jingoistic about me. I'll biatch and whine about the state of this nation. But I try to make it better. The Tea Party is a symptom of a disease that should, hopefully, run it's course. Nations have their swings, and we are experiencing it. I just think that the thing that bothered me the most (in my early morning, caffeine-less haze), is that I've noticed you say "my country", with regards to Canada, while downing America. I don't think I've seen native Canadians do the same thing on here, but I could be mistaken. If I were to move away to another nation, I would like to think that I would feel pride there, but I also think I would still have pride for my country of birth. My friends and family are here, and for all the faults, I've still received a great opportunity, and make a very good living, even without going in massive debt due to college expenses.

Canada has a population of about 35 million. The US is nearly ten times that amount. Things are going to move pretty slowly here. But, as you can see, the gay marriage debate is slowly dying. The old white Conservatives are only getting older, and that means they will die. The rightward swing of the pendulum is slowing, and it will start swinging left again. Realize that things will change for the better here.
 
2014-04-03 09:43:34 AM
very smart, very happy man.

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-03 09:46:26 AM

padraig: Some of those metrics seem wonky.France and the US are 67th on freedom of movement, compared to Canada's 1st ? How on Earth are French and American people less free to move than the Canadian ?


I think it's not about being allowed so much as how easy the move is. As someone who has lived in 4 out of 10 provinces and worked for extended periods in most of the others, in Canada moving around is very easy. Laws are substantially the same.
 
2014-04-03 09:47:00 AM

Aidan: You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.


The issue isn't that US citizens are worried about getting taxed - the vast majority of US citizens living abroad are either below the income threshold for having to pay overseas taxes or live in countries with higher taxes than the US and end up with tax credits that exceed their tax liability. Failure to fill out the return, even if nothing is owed, can lead to stiff penalties.

The issue is that the US requires US citizens living overseas to file tax returns that can be complicated to fill out and very expensive if you need an accountant to help. Additionally, in an effort to prevent a few very wealthy people from hiding assets in Swiss/Cayman bank accounts the US has cast a regulatory dragnet so wide that many banks around the world refuse to open accounts for US citizens, making life rather difficult for overseas citizens.
 
2014-04-03 09:49:23 AM

Target Builder: Aidan: You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.

The issue isn't that US citizens are worried about getting taxed - the vast majority of US citizens living abroad are either below the income threshold for having to pay overseas taxes or live in countries with higher taxes than the US and end up with tax credits that exceed their tax liability. Failure to fill out the return, even if nothing is owed, can lead to stiff penalties.

The issue is that the US requires US citizens living overseas to file tax returns that can be complicated to fill out and very expensive if you need an accountant to help. Additionally, in an effort to prevent a few very wealthy people from hiding assets in Swiss/Cayman bank accounts the US has cast a regulatory dragnet so wide that many banks around the world refuse to open accounts for US citizens, making life rather difficult for overseas citizens.


Ah, I see. I knew it was something to do with taxation, but I assumed it was the money, not the headache. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks. :)
 
2014-04-03 09:51:15 AM
Numerical rank is a stupid way to do things like this - especially with values carried out to the hundreths place.

Country A: 98.12
Country B: 97.95

But there's 20 countries between 98 and 97.9 so apparently A is a paradise and B is a "third world shiathole" even tho, other than mathematically, there's no appreciable lifestyle difference between a score of 98 and 97.
 
2014-04-03 09:53:01 AM
At least we're not Somalia.  Yet.
 
2014-04-03 09:57:38 AM
Add "Access to guns" under "Basic Human Needs" and the US should leap to #1.
 
2014-04-03 09:59:54 AM

Aidan: The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low


It is very difficult to renounce american citizenship.
(Trying to do it for my daughter, ... it is frustratingly and stupidly difficult)
 
2014-04-03 10:00:12 AM

jaybeezey: Alonjar: oryx: I suppose the U.S. should model itself after some worker's paradise such as Cuba or Venezuela. That would be according to Fark anyway.

Well, Cuba *does* have universal healthcare...

...aaaand political prisoners. It's the only progressive paradise that people are willing to strap 55 gallon barrels onto an old pontiac to try to float away from.


Um. Seems the US has a bit of an issue with political prisoners as well. Oddly, located in Cuba...
 
2014-04-03 10:00:41 AM

Aidan: some_beer_drinker: I don't know, 7th seems not so bad.

/Canadian, eh

Yup. I looked at it and thought "1st in places that aren't Scandinavia. Looks good to me."


Are we looking at the same table?  Or are New Zealand, Switzerland and the Netherlands now Scandinavia?


Benevolent Misanthrope: I haven;t been here long enough to start making that decision - and I may change my tune when it comes time to fill in the forms. But if I get Canadian citizenship, I doubt I'll hang on to my US citizenship, if I don't intend to go back, ever.

You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.

On the other hand, I'm choosing NOT to get my American citizenship for probably similar socio-political reasons, so I understand your point.


I have no descendants, though that might be a reason to keep it if I did.  2,369 people renounced or gave up their permanent residency in the US last year.  Small compared to the population, but up over 200%.  Mostly because of the new tax rules that are designed to punish people who leave to avoid paying US taxes.

I even have to declare any bank account that ever gets over $10,000.00 to the IRS, on two separate forms.  If I don't, the penalties are severe - and H&R Block had no idea, by the way.

The US makes it difficult for expats.
 
2014-04-03 10:03:11 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Aidan: some_beer_drinker: I don't know, 7th seems not so bad.

/Canadian, eh

Yup. I looked at it and thought "1st in places that aren't Scandinavia. Looks good to me."

Are we looking at the same table? Or are New Zealand, Switzerland and the Netherlands now Scandinavia?


Yeah, they're called New Scandinavia now. Didn't you get the memo?

Or I could have just glanced at the map and made my comment. Whichever seems more likely. :)
 
2014-04-03 10:05:34 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: 2,369 people renounced or gave up their permanent residency in the US last year. Small compared to the population, but up over 200%. Mostly because of the new tax rules that are designed to punish people who leave to avoid paying US taxes.


I see the problem. The wiki page only lists "important" (sigh) people who've renounced. I did wonder why that didn't jive with the other story which said something like 3000 in 2013 or whatever. I guess they don't count... :P
 
2014-04-03 10:07:50 AM

bighairyguy: Add "Access to guns" under "Basic Human Needs" and the US should leap to #1.


#2 behind Switzerland.
 
2014-04-03 10:12:06 AM
Canadians in general look at lists like these and compare ourselves to Scandinavian countries first to see how we are doing, then to the US for giggles.

It wasn't always that way. Still, I welcome ex pat Americans and former ex pat Canadians returning home as the reverse brain drain continues. Canada may be the little brother in the relationship, but we will still look after our big bro socially, while he looks after us militarily. It's not always pretty, but is a very good pairing of different strengths.
 
2014-04-03 10:12:09 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Aidan: some_beer_drinker: I don't know, 7th seems not so bad.

/Canadian, eh

Yup. I looked at it and thought "1st in places that aren't Scandinavia. Looks good to me."

Are we looking at the same table?  Or are New Zealand, Switzerland and the Netherlands now Scandinavia?


Benevolent Misanthrope: I haven;t been here long enough to start making that decision - and I may change my tune when it comes time to fill in the forms. But if I get Canadian citizenship, I doubt I'll hang on to my US citizenship, if I don't intend to go back, ever.

You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.

On the other hand, I'm choosing NOT to get my American citizenship for probably similar socio-political reasons, so I understand your point.

I have no descendants, though that might be a reason to keep it if I did.  2,369 people renounced or gave up their permanent residency in the US last year.  Small compared to the population, but up over 200%.  Mostly because of the new tax rules that are designed to punish people who leave to avoid paying US taxes.

I even have to declare any bank account that ever gets over $10,000.00 to the IRS, on two separate forms.  If I don't, the penalties are severe - and H&R Block had no idea, by the way.

The US makes it difficult for expats.


There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.
 
2014-04-03 10:13:16 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: The US is the only nation that requires expats who earned no money in the US to pay income tax. Yes, there are treaties that are supposed to ensure you don't get taxed twice - but the US has a cap on how much your foreign tax liability can offset your US tax liability. And Cthulhu help you if you own American property or securities.


If you own property in the US shoudln't you pay taxes on it?


I lived abroad fro a few years after 2001. Then the limit was no tax on your first 80k (so if you made 100k, it was taxed as if you made 20k), also they deducted the tax you paid abroad. Not sure how much it changed but I was pulling down 120k with no taxes paid in the US, and that seemed very resaonable to me.
 
2014-04-03 10:14:58 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Aidan: some_beer_drinker: I don't know, 7th seems not so bad.

/Canadian, eh

Yup. I looked at it and thought "1st in places that aren't Scandinavia. Looks good to me."

Are we looking at the same table?  Or are New Zealand, Switzerland and the Netherlands now Scandinavia?


Benevolent Misanthrope: I haven;t been here long enough to start making that decision - and I may change my tune when it comes time to fill in the forms. But if I get Canadian citizenship, I doubt I'll hang on to my US citizenship, if I don't intend to go back, ever.

You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.

On the other hand, I'm choosing NOT to get my American citizenship for probably similar socio-political reasons, so I understand your point.

I have no descendants, though that might be a reason to keep it if I did.  2,369 people renounced or gave up their permanent residency in the US last year.  Small compared to the population, but up over 200%.  Mostly because of the new tax rules that are designed to punish people who leave to avoid paying US taxes.

I even have to declare any bank account that ever gets over $10,000.00 to the IRS, on two separate forms.  If I don't, the penalties are severe - and H&R Block had no idea, by the way.

The US makes it difficult for expats.


Let me stoke the flames: you are in the same group as those who are Sovereign Citizens who gainsay their citizenship due to taxation
 
2014-04-03 10:16:42 AM

Aidan: Benevolent Misanthrope: 2,369 people renounced or gave up their permanent residency in the US last year. Small compared to the population, but up over 200%. Mostly because of the new tax rules that are designed to punish people who leave to avoid paying US taxes.

I see the problem. The wiki page only lists "important" (sigh) people who've renounced. I did wonder why that didn't jive with the other story which said something like 3000 in 2013 or whatever. I guess they don't count... :P


I find it hilarious that the US publishes a quarterly report of every person who renounced citizenship or residency.  Kind of a public shaming.  As if someone who went to the trouble (and I hear it is alot of trouble) would be ashamed at that point.

The US also taxes you when you leave, if you're worth $2M or more.  One last chance to gouge you, I suppose.
 
2014-04-03 10:18:52 AM

Greylight: Canadians in general look at lists like these and compare ourselves to Scandinavian countries first to see how we are doing, then to the US for giggles.

It wasn't always that way. Still, I welcome ex pat Americans and former ex pat Canadians returning home as the reverse brain drain continues. Canada may be the little brother in the relationship, but we will still look after our big bro socially, while he looks after us militarily. It's not always pretty, but is a very good pairing of different strengths.


Narf?

img.fark.net
 
2014-04-03 10:18:58 AM

cman: Let me stoke the flames: you are in the same group as those who are Sovereign Citizens who gainsay their citizenship due to taxation


How so?  Why should the US have any claim on money I made in Canada, spent in Canada, and paid taxes on in Canada?
 
2014-04-03 10:22:39 AM
Well, how do you even go about reliably measuring those variables they are talking about and then convert all that various data different countries have into a metric you can use to compare across them all?
 
2014-04-03 10:24:49 AM

Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.


They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.
 
2014-04-03 10:25:04 AM

cman: Benevolent Misanthrope: Aidan: some_beer_drinker: I don't know, 7th seems not so bad.

/Canadian, eh

Yup. I looked at it and thought "1st in places that aren't Scandinavia. Looks good to me."

Are we looking at the same table?  Or are New Zealand, Switzerland and the Netherlands now Scandinavia?


Benevolent Misanthrope: I haven;t been here long enough to start making that decision - and I may change my tune when it comes time to fill in the forms. But if I get Canadian citizenship, I doubt I'll hang on to my US citizenship, if I don't intend to go back, ever.

You don't have to renounce it though. You can just shove it in a drawer somewhere. Might be good for your descendants (or not, YMMV). The list of people who've actually renounced American citizenship is startlingly low. I could see renouncing it so you don't get taxed, but that seems like a pretty small reason.

On the other hand, I'm choosing NOT to get my American citizenship for probably similar socio-political reasons, so I understand your point.

I have no descendants, though that might be a reason to keep it if I did.  2,369 people renounced or gave up their permanent residency in the US last year.  Small compared to the population, but up over 200%.  Mostly because of the new tax rules that are designed to punish people who leave to avoid paying US taxes.

I even have to declare any bank account that ever gets over $10,000.00 to the IRS, on two separate forms.  If I don't, the penalties are severe - and H&R Block had no idea, by the way.

The US makes it difficult for expats.

Let me stoke the flames: you are in the same group as those who are Sovereign Citizens who gainsay their citizenship due to taxation


IRS stands for Internal Revenue Service.

I don't live in the US.
I don't work for anyone connected to the US.
I'm not paid in US currency.
I don't deposit my pay check in a US account.
None of my investments are through US financial organizations.
I don't own any US property.
How the fark is any of my revenue "internal"? I'd love to be able to get away with sending in a note, instead of a 1040, saying only "Dear IRS: Mind your own damn business."
 
2014-04-03 10:25:24 AM
Saudi Arabia ranks 65 and not dead last?  The country were women can't be seen outdoors unless they are covered head to toe in a sack?  The country  were Jews are prohibited from entering?  The country where you can get your hand chopped off for shoplifting a soda?

Bogus "study" is bogus.
 
2014-04-03 10:25:58 AM

way south: culculhen: way south: A number of the top placers are fairly rigid and monochromatic societies with healthy economies.
Considering our current situation, I'd say our position isn't something to be ashamed of.

Seriously, tell us more about those filth multi-chromes keeping the monochromatic part of the US down in the ranking!

We should do something to celebrate and promote monochrome culture to combat it. Something visual so people could see the importance of it. Some kind of uniform without color would do nicely... Maybe some hood that covers the face too? I see real potential in such an organization. Who is with Way South and me?


We already do alot to combat your style of bigotry, and we're better off than most places, but nations without a similar cultural background that are well off economically (like Japan) don't have the same hurdles as those with extreme wealth inequality or cultural mixing.
Try living in many of those places while black, gay, or wearing a tattoo and your personal experience will vary greatly from the average.

/In short, the three reasons I won't bother going to Japan anytime soon.


My style of bigotry? Ha! I'm not the one complaining how bad minorities are. Or how minorities that lived in the US for centuries are a "hurdle" for the majority and aren't part of the same "culture" Yeah, sure my pal. You literally called people of a different  color the reason why the US does badly and you think it's not just the same old style bigotry dressed up in fancier rhetoric? Seriously, if you want to avoid mockery about how bigoted your statements were don't say how the US is hurt statistically by not being "monochrome"
 
2014-04-03 10:27:13 AM

Fissile: Saudi Arabia ranks 65 and not dead last?  The country were women can't be seen outdoors unless they are covered head to toe in a sack?  The country  were Jews are prohibited from entering?  The country where you can get your hand chopped off for shoplifting a soda?

Bogus "study" is bogus.


I think you underestimate how much of a shiathole most of the world is to live in.
 
2014-04-03 10:27:37 AM

Fizpez: Numerical rank is a stupid way to do things like this - especially with values carried out to the hundreths place.

Country A: 98.12
Country B: 97.95

But there's 20 countries between 98 and 97.9 so apparently A is a paradise and B is a "third world shiathole" even tho, other than mathematically, there's no appreciable lifestyle difference between a score of 98 and 97.


Hey, hey, hey, what I said earlier applies to you too.  Knock it off with your common sense.  The only appropriate thing to do with this link is to appropriate the information to prop up your own red team/blue team political views and then run around flailing your arms and screaming about it until you turn blue in the face and pass out.
 
2014-04-03 10:27:43 AM

liam76: Benevolent Misanthrope: The US is the only nation that requires expats who earned no money in the US to pay income tax. Yes, there are treaties that are supposed to ensure you don't get taxed twice - but the US has a cap on how much your foreign tax liability can offset your US tax liability. And Cthulhu help you if you own American property or securities.

If you own property in the US shoudln't you pay taxes on it?


You pay property tax in the US, and gains tax in Canada AND the US.

I lived abroad fro a few years after 2001. Then the limit was no tax on your first 80k (so if you made 100k, it was taxed as if you made 20k), also they deducted the tax you paid abroad. Not sure how much it changed but I was pulling down 120k with no taxes paid in the US, and that seemed very resaonable to me.

The effective cutoff is now about $100K, or so I hear.  I paid this year.  I'll pay every year.
 
2014-04-03 10:28:18 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: How so? Why should the US have any claim on money I made in Canada, spent in Canada, and paid taxes on in Canada


I am curious about the specifics here.

You owe noting until you break 97,600. After that you are taxed as if the additional money is your total salary. You can then also write off your taxes in Canada, and you can write off living expenses.
 
2014-04-03 10:34:48 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.

They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.


Yeah. After the flurry of news reports about that, I've been filing the FBAR. Ended up having a major brouhaha a couple of years ago with the IRS that lasted several months, involving lots of paperwork, nasty letters, and unpleasant phone conversations with unhelpful IRS personnel at various levels (and different offices that don't properly communicate with each other) of the hierarchy, before it all got finally straightened out. And that's with me being only a poor underpaid academic nobody. It's not like I was trying to exploit loopholes to hide vast wealth (I'd need wealth in order to do that).

Crap like this is why small-government conservatives are small-government.
 
2014-04-03 10:36:44 AM

liam76: Benevolent Misanthrope: How so? Why should the US have any claim on money I made in Canada, spent in Canada, and paid taxes on in Canada

I am curious about the specifics here.

You owe noting until you break 97,600. After that you are taxed as if the additional money is your total salary. You can then also write off your taxes in Canada, and you can write off living expenses.


You want I should send you my tax return?  I owed, I paid.
 
2014-04-03 10:36:57 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: liam76: Benevolent Misanthrope: The US is the only nation that requires expats who earned no money in the US to pay income tax. Yes, there are treaties that are supposed to ensure you don't get taxed twice - but the US has a cap on how much your foreign tax liability can offset your US tax liability. And Cthulhu help you if you own American property or securities.

If you own property in the US shoudln't you pay taxes on it?

You pay property tax in the US, and gains tax in Canada AND the US.

I lived abroad fro a few years after 2001. Then the limit was no tax on your first 80k (so if you made 100k, it was taxed as if you made 20k), also they deducted the tax you paid abroad. Not sure how much it changed but I was pulling down 120k with no taxes paid in the US, and that seemed very resaonable to me.

The effective cutoff is now about $100K, or so I hear.  I paid this year.  I'll pay every year.


Benevolent Misanthrope: The effective cutoff is now about $100K, or so I hear. I paid this year. I'll pay every year


Have they changed how the foreign tax credit works?


With Canada having a higher tax rate (in general) than the US I am having a tought time seeing how that is possible.


If I made enoug when I worked in Indoensia or Egypt it woudl have been possbile, but in a high rate place like Canada, I don;t see how I would have ever reached that.
 
2014-04-03 10:37:42 AM

Son of Thunder: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.

They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.

Yeah. After the flurry of news reports about that, I've been filing the FBAR. Ended up having a major brouhaha a couple of years ago with the IRS that lasted several months, involving lots of paperwork, nasty letters, and unpleasant phone conversations with unhelpful IRS personnel at various levels (and different offices that don't properly communicate with each other) of the hierarchy, before it all got finally straightened out. And that's with me being only a poor underpaid academic nobody. It's not like I was trying to exploit loopholes to hide vast wealth (I'd need wealth in order to do that).

Crap like this is why small-government conservatives are small-government.


Care to alert me as to what I might have missed?  This is my first year filing as an expat.
 
2014-04-03 10:49:20 AM
Has there ever been a unanimous opinion on what "progress" actually means? I didn't think so.
 
2014-04-03 10:51:35 AM

frozenhotchocolate: These studies are ultimately hard to judge because the U.S. is just so massive compared to any other first world developed nation. For people to say that the U.S. is somehow fading is foolish. The United States has demographics on its side. Europe in the future will face some major issues of an aging population. Canada is great, i have a bunch of family there. But Canada's existence so tied to the U.S. that it will always be younger brother. As we go, they go.


it would be nice if we could start thinking in terms of global civilisation and population.

we need to start thinking about water and carbon and pollutants from a global perspective n all

won't happen though, even liberals don't value brown people thousands of miles away as highly as they value whitey down the road who eats battery farmed eggs and doesnt recycle

/not quite sure where I went with the last bit, but yagetme
 
2014-04-03 10:59:10 AM

Fizpez: Numerical rank is a stupid way to do things like this - especially with values carried out to the hundreths place.

Country A: 98.12
Country B: 97.95

But there's 20 countries between 98 and 97.9 so apparently A is a paradise and B is a "third world shiathole" even tho, other than mathematically, there's no appreciable lifestyle difference between a score of 98 and 97.


What's even more amusing is that the values used for these calculations are largely subjective.  Then weighting factors are subjectively applied.  In other words, they have taken several subjectively applied numbers, plugged them into a suspect algorithm and then we're supposed to have absolute faith in their accuracy because they're calculated out to hundredths of a percent of precision.
 
2014-04-03 11:00:10 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: Benevolent Misanthrope: Son of Thunder: There at least we agree. The bottom line ends up being that I usually get a chunk of change at the end of the process, but it's a pain in the keister, and at a conceptual level there is a problem with the IRS claiming that money that I am paid in Canada for work in Canada which gets spent in Canada is any of their business. Not to mention my joint accounts with my Canadian wife, which means that the IRS is claiming authority over someone who is not a US citizen, and they've been threatening Canadian banks if the banks don't obey. The IRS needs (at the VERY least) to be taken down a few pegs.

They won.

Be careful.  FATCA is not farking around.  Filing your 8938 with your US taxes is not enough - you also have to file an FBAR form by June 30.

Yeah. After the flurry of news reports about that, I've been filing the FBAR. Ended up having a major brouhaha a couple of years ago with the IRS that lasted several months, involving lots of paperwork, nasty letters, and unpleasant phone conversations with unhelpful IRS personnel at various levels (and different offices that don't properly communicate with each other) of the hierarchy, before it all got finally straightened out. And that's with me being only a poor underpaid academic nobody. It's not like I was trying to exploit loopholes to hide vast wealth (I'd need wealth in order to do that).

Crap like this is why small-government conservatives are small-government.

Care to alert me as to what I might have missed?  This is my first year filing as an expat.


See a tax specialist.  Seriously.  I have friends with dual citizenship who have never personally lived or worked in the US but thought it would be beneficial to claim their US citizenship only to find themselves a few years later owing 7 figures in tax, fines, and penalties.
 
2014-04-03 11:05:23 AM

Public Savant: Greylight: Canadians in general look at lists like these and compare ourselves to Scandinavian countries first to see how we are doing, then to the US for giggles.

It wasn't always that way. Still, I welcome ex pat Americans and former ex pat Canadians returning home as the reverse brain drain continues. Canada may be the little brother in the relationship, but we will still look after our big bro socially, while he looks after us militarily. It's not always pretty, but is a very good pairing of different strengths.

Narf?

[img.fark.net image 850x637]


Bro, are you pondering what I am pondering?
 
2014-04-03 11:12:26 AM
Is this the index that is measured by how many Ayn Rand books are sold per day?
 
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