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(io9)   After a few beers, who really cares if she is a neanderthal or a homo sapiens? It's all good   ( io9.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, heredity, Denisovans, Neanderthals, early humans  
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2928 clicks; posted to Geek » on 03 Apr 2014 at 9:08 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-03 08:23:06 AM  
img.fark.net
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-03 08:37:00 AM  
The io9 source plus the link headline (DRNTFA) reminds me of a Larry Niven anecdote about walking out of an SF con and forgetting to take off the tag that said "have sex outside your species."
 
2014-04-03 09:08:13 AM  

ZAZ: The io9 source plus the link headline (DRNTFA) reminds me of a Larry Niven anecdote about walking out of an SF con and forgetting to take off the tag that said "have sex outside your species."


Rishathra. Not just for breakfast anymore...
 
2014-04-03 09:28:22 AM  
" we have table manners and Android devices and can follow the plot on Game of Thrones "

Not for long, buddy, not for long.
 
2014-04-03 09:29:32 AM  
Scooters, hon.  Scooters.
 
2014-04-03 09:43:44 AM  
www.celebritysextapes.net

Personally, I would avoid the Neanderthals.
 
2014-04-03 09:53:24 AM  
Given my family is in the higher end of Neanderthal DNA someone in my lineage was into brow ridges.
 
2014-04-03 10:00:39 AM  

tzzhc4: Given my family is in the higher end of Neanderthal DNA someone in my lineage was into brow ridges.

i253.photobucket.com


For the sake of genetic research I must ask you...

Does this make you moist?
 
2014-04-03 10:00:50 AM  
Well, when we're finally able to discuss genetic differences among nationalities without clutching pearls or lynching people, the facts that we know this should help accommodate those differences.  Maybe even engineer solutions to the various diseases that disproportionately afflict different groups.

Until then, we can continue with the we're all the same unique snowflake nonsense.
 
2014-04-03 10:00:56 AM  
Why does it matter?  Because <shrill voice> THINK OF  THE CHILDREN!!!</shrill voice>
 
2014-04-03 10:05:26 AM  

FLMountainMan: Well, when we're finally able to discuss genetic differences among nationalities without clutching pearls or lynching people, the facts that we know this should help accommodate those differences.  Maybe even engineer solutions to the various diseases that disproportionately afflict different groups.

Until then, we can continue with the we're all the same unique snowflake nonsense.


Speaking as someone who does genomics work that often intersects with healthcare we talk about genetic differences in population groups all of the time because it has a huge impact on disease prevalence and effective treatments. Really my point is just that all of the public pearl clutching really has no actual bearing on health research in this regard and doesn't hold it back in any way.
 
2014-04-03 10:07:24 AM  
And the species/sub-species distinction is semantic wrangling anyway. The biological species concept everyone is familiar with is only one way of how we categorize species, and it only applies to animals, which is about 1% of all life on the planet. And we know it isn't a perfect fit there either, it just mostly works. We've mostly moved towards definitions of species that depend partially on things like reproductively isolated populations but much more on their actual genetic distinctiveness as a population.
 
2014-04-03 10:08:04 AM  
Ron Perlman, I suspect, is the last living neanderthal.

And what a bitter pill for old school white racists - honkeys are the ones with caveman genes, while black folks are the most pure.
 
2014-04-03 10:10:37 AM  
media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com

Okey-dokey.
 
2014-04-03 10:12:25 AM  
How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.
 
2014-04-03 10:12:47 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [www.celebritysextapes.net image 567x850]

Personally, I would avoid the Neanderthals.


She's black.  She's OJ's kid.
 
2014-04-03 10:13:35 AM  

Target Builder: How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.


Because science.
 
2014-04-03 10:14:28 AM  

FLMountainMan: Ron Perlman, I suspect, is the last living neanderthal.

And what a bitter pill for old school white racists - honkeys are the ones with caveman genes, while black folks are the most pure.


Pffft whatever and the prefered nominclature is cracker not honkeys.  Git it right.
 
2014-04-03 10:16:36 AM  

brandent: Target Builder: How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.

Because science.


Well actually I have a concern here.  There seems to be a (quite unintentional I'm sure) trend recently to paint the Neanderthals as some sort of red headed, blue eyed pure being of no ill intent who is then raped by the invaders from Africa.  It is then pointed out that today's Africans have no Neanderthal genetic material.  It smells at least a little like 19th century 'science' regarding Africans that was used to justify all manner of horrible things.
 
2014-04-03 10:27:26 AM  

brandent: brandent: Target Builder: How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.

Because science.

Well actually I have a concern here.  There seems to be a (quite unintentional I'm sure) trend recently to paint the Neanderthals as some sort of red headed, blue eyed pure being of no ill intent who is then raped by the invaders from Africa.  It is then pointed out that today's Africans have no Neanderthal genetic material.  It smells at least a little like 19th century 'science' regarding Africans that was used to justify all manner of horrible things.


There is truly no news article that an unemployed sociology major can't turn into a lecture on white privilege.
 
2014-04-03 10:28:49 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Personally, I would avoid the Neanderthals.


That's your choice. We all have different opinions.
 
2014-04-03 10:29:32 AM  

phaseolus: Okey-dokey.


So THAT'S what happens when one lops off Pippi Longstocking's braids...
 
2014-04-03 10:31:42 AM  

Target Builder: How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.


Since they could interbreed, technically they were not a different species. It's just that old timey science decided they were a different species and the idea stuck. They'd more accurately be called a subspecies today because of the ability to interbreed with H. sapiens, but at the time they were originally classified the ability to interbreed hadn't been established by DNA evidence and they were just looking at bones, and scientists back then almost wanted to think of other races as different species.
 
2014-04-03 10:31:44 AM  

brandent: brandent: Target Builder: How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.

Because science.

Well actually I have a concern here.  There seems to be a (quite unintentional I'm sure) trend recently to paint the Neanderthals as some sort of red headed, blue eyed pure being of no ill intent who is then raped by the invaders from Africa.  It is then pointed out that today's Africans have no Neanderthal genetic material.  It smells at least a little like 19th century 'science' regarding Africans that was used to justify all manner of horrible things.


Yeah this. They most certainly interbred. Eventually most of the Neanderthal traits went the way of the Dodo, as Homo sapiens far outnumbered them.
 
2014-04-03 10:33:10 AM  

brandent: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [www.celebritysextapes.net image 567x850]

Personally, I would avoid the Neanderthals.

She's black.  She's OJ's kid.


But he was good looking.  It makes no sense.
 
2014-04-03 10:35:52 AM  

entropic_existence: FLMountainMan: Well, when we're finally able to discuss genetic differences among nationalities without clutching pearls or lynching people, the facts that we know this should help accommodate those differences.  Maybe even engineer solutions to the various diseases that disproportionately afflict different groups.

Until then, we can continue with the we're all the same unique snowflake nonsense.

Speaking as someone who does genomics work that often intersects with healthcare we talk about genetic differences in population groups all of the time because it has a huge impact on disease prevalence and effective treatments. Really my point is just that all of the public pearl clutching really has no actual bearing on health research in this regard and doesn't hold it back in any way.


But he needs to be angry, man. Don't take that from him.
 
2014-04-03 10:42:14 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Since they could interbreed, technically they were not a different species


Not true. There are many cases where different species have interbred to produce viable (and fertile) offspring. The only "old timey" science here is the idea that hybrid speciation is rare. In plants, we've discovered that it's extremely common. In mammals, less so, but there are hybrid species out there (like the clymene dolphin, which is a reproductively distinct hybrid between two different dolphin species).

That said, based on genetic analysis, it's possible that Neanderthals were a distinct subspecies of  homo sapiens and not a different species. It's likely that they  were, simply because there's enough time between when the Neanderthals were in ascendance and when other  homospecies moved into their habitat. This happened while their habitat was undergoing a rapid change- if  homo sapiens were well adapted to the same environment as the Neanderthals, they would have moved in there during the glacial period. It's likely that Neanderthals were a fully distinct species, or were on the cusp of speciation when mainline  homo sapiens reclaimed their genetic branch.
 
2014-04-03 10:52:35 AM  
t3knomanser:

That said, based on genetic analysis, it's possible that Neanderthals were a distinct subspecies of  homo sapiens and not a different species. It's likely that they  were, simply because there's enough time between when the Neanderthals were in ascendance and when other  homospecies moved into their habitat. This happened while their habitat was undergoing a rapid change- if  homo sapiens were well adapted to the same environment as the Neanderthals, they would have moved in there during the glacial period. It's likely that Neanderthals were a fully distinct species, or were on the cusp of speciation when mainline  homo sapiens reclaimed their genetic branch.

Who are you calling a homospecies?  I like girls!

Oh.

nevermind.
 
2014-04-03 10:55:34 AM  
If you're a white person, you've got Neanderthal in your blood. If you want to get cute about it, you can claim that Europeans are the result of paleolithic miscegenation, making whitey a much less "pure" version of Homo sapiens than Africans.

Ffs. Considering the actual totality of evidence, at least no one is stupid enough to...

FLMountainMan: And what a bitter pill for old school white racists - honkeys are the ones with caveman genes, while black folks are the most pure.

Oh, nevermind. Racists will racist, I guess.

For the rest of us not stuck in idiot mode, the genetic reality is that all human population groups evince evidence of breeding with other, previously-considered-non-human population groups like Neandertals, Denisovans, etc.
All of us. Every single one. Modern humanity is the result, from the most primitive Bushman to Hawking and Einstein.
 
2014-04-03 11:01:02 AM  
Also, just as a whatever, man...

It's possible that Europeans inherited red hair from Neanderthals.

No, it's really not. The mutations for red hair amongst Neandertals and modern humans are completely different with absolutely no relation.
 
2014-04-03 11:03:41 AM  

Empty H: entropic_existence: FLMountainMan: Well, when we're finally able to discuss genetic differences among nationalities without clutching pearls or lynching people, the facts that we know this should help accommodate those differences.  Maybe even engineer solutions to the various diseases that disproportionately afflict different groups.

Until then, we can continue with the we're all the same unique snowflake nonsense.

Speaking as someone who does genomics work that often intersects with healthcare we talk about genetic differences in population groups all of the time because it has a huge impact on disease prevalence and effective treatments. Really my point is just that all of the public pearl clutching really has no actual bearing on health research in this regard and doesn't hold it back in any way.

But he needs to be angry, man. Don't take that from him.


Not angry at all, more amused than anything.

I think racial equality as a legal and social concept is an absolute necessity for any society I'd like to live in.  But when I'm putting together a 440 relay team, I'm going to set it aside.
 
2014-04-03 11:05:05 AM  

Facetious_Speciest: If you're a white person, you've got Neanderthal in your blood. If you want to get cute about it, you can claim that Europeans are the result of paleolithic miscegenation, making whitey a much less "pure" version of Homo sapiens than Africans.

Ffs. Considering the actual totality of evidence, at least no one is stupid enough to...

FLMountainMan: And what a bitter pill for old school white racists - honkeys are the ones with caveman genes, while black folks are the most pure.

Oh, nevermind. Racists will racist, I guess.

For the rest of us not stuck in idiot mode, the genetic reality is that all human population groups evince evidence of breeding with other, previously-considered-non-human population groups like Neandertals, Denisovans, etc.
All of us. Every single one. Modern humanity is the result, from the most primitive Bushman to Hawking and Einstein.


Have you actually read any of the research around this issue?
 
2014-04-03 11:05:12 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [www.celebritysextapes.net image 567x850]

Personally, I would avoid the Neanderthals.


My goodness.  If OJ Simpson had a daughter, that's exactly what she would look like.  Who is that?
 
2014-04-03 11:06:22 AM  
FLMountainMan

Have you actually read any of the research around this issue?

Well, one of us has, and it isn't you.

Not trying to be a dick, but your racist bullshiat is like most racist bullshiat...evidence of ignorance.
 
2014-04-03 11:12:41 AM  

Target Builder: How are Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens different species if a Bichon Frize and German Shepherd are the same species?

I'm curious - this is well outside my field of expertise but the differences seem minor.


Large phenotypic differences can sometimes be due to relatively minor genetic changes, large genetic differences can have very little observable effect in terms of appearance, and the species/sub-species definitions are somewhat arbitrary. We call things "species" because humans have an innate tendency to categorize things into discrete containers. Of course reality is far more diffuse and continuous than discrete, so it is always messy. Calling things species does reflect reality, but only in an approximate way.
 
2014-04-03 11:18:15 AM  

Facetious_Speciest: Oh, nevermind. Racists will racist, I guess.

For the rest of us not stuck in idiot mode, the genetic reality is that all human population groups evince evidence of breeding with other, previously-considered-non-human population groups like Neandertals, Denisovans, etc.
All of us. Every single one. Modern humanity is the result, from the most primitive Bushman to Hawking and Einstein.


Sub-saharan Africans have the most genetic diversity of any population group, which makes sense given it's where we come from, and only a subset of that diversity left Africa. But the Neanderthal lineage still split from the rest of our collective family tree well before the appearance of "modern humans" in Africa. There is evidence for 1-4% introgression of Neanderthal genes with people of European descent and less with Asian groups. The Denisovans come as a separate introgression and that is pretty much restricted to Asia and Pacific population groups.

AFAIK from the papers I have read there is essentially zero evidence of genetic introgression of Neanderthals or Denisovans with African populations. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but there is no evidence of it from either a fossil record perspective or genetic studies. That has nothing to do with racism, it just is really reliant on where different populations of humans lived at the relevant time periods.

/Is in the 99th percentile for DNA of neanderthal origin
//No brow ridges
///Tall, not short and squat
 
2014-04-03 11:22:21 AM  
entropic_existence

AFAIK from the papers I have read there is essentially zero evidence of genetic introgression of Neanderthals or Denisovans with African populations.

Which, of course, has nothing at all to do with introgression from other archaic hominins.
 
2014-04-03 11:54:03 AM  

RumsfeldsReplacement: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [www.celebritysextapes.net image 567x850]

Personally, I would avoid the Neanderthals.

My goodness.  If OJ Simpson had a daughter, that's exactly what she would look like.  Who is that?


It's the big Kardashian.
 
2014-04-03 11:56:53 AM  

entropic_existence: We call things "species" because humans have an innate tendency to categorize things into discrete containers.


Which, it's worth pointing out that there's a lot of debate over what is a species. Personally (and as a layman, my opinion means jack), I think of genotypes as a multidimensional space (massively multidimensional). Species are volumes where organisms tend to cluster. They are "stable" nodes, or "low points" in space. The sparse areas of the possible genome are "unstable" or "high points" in space- organisms will tend to have offspring that will either die or drift towards a stable point. As the environment changes, some "unstable" genomes will become "stable", and vice versa.

It's just a way to visualize species, and it fits in things like hybridization and horizontal transfer.
 
2014-04-03 11:58:16 AM  

phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.


Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

www.rotoscopers.com
 
2014-04-03 12:02:53 PM  

washington-babylon: phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.

Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

[www.rotoscopers.com image 850x478]


She was trying to be Wilma Flintstone without a comb?
 
2014-04-03 01:35:17 PM  

washington-babylon: phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.

Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

[www.rotoscopers.com image 850x478]


Except that your pic is stretched out. The character actually has little ape-like legs and a much wider frame/skull.

bostonherald.com

(And facially (and hair-wise) she looks a lot like an ex-girlfriend of mine, who did have normal-sized limbs.)
 
2014-04-03 01:35:23 PM  

Far Cough: washington-babylon: phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.

Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

[www.rotoscopers.com image 850x478]

She was trying to be Wilma Flintstone without a comb?


The Croods was a fairly popular film with the kids...

www.michaelspornanimation.com
 
2014-04-03 02:23:02 PM  

washington-babylon: phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.

Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

[www.rotoscopers.com image 850x478]


Who dat?
 
2014-04-03 03:35:12 PM  
Caught the Croods on Netflix. Was actually pretty good. Visually stunning for sure.
 
2014-04-03 05:03:28 PM  

mainsail: washington-babylon: phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.

Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

[www.rotoscopers.com image 850x478]

Who dat?


Eep. Not even kidding, that is the Character's name.
 
2014-04-03 05:06:46 PM  

washington-babylon: mainsail: washington-babylon: phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.

Nice. Most Cosplayers don't look anything at all like what they are trying to be, but she nailed it.

To clarify the confused minds, here ya go:

[www.rotoscopers.com image 850x478]

Who dat?

Eep. Not even kidding, that is the Character's name.


Many thanks.
 
2014-04-03 05:14:18 PM  

phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.


Unga Bunga CAPTAIN CAAAAAAVEEEEEEBOOOOOOONERRRRRR
 
2014-04-03 08:17:58 PM  

Facetious_Speciest: For the rest of us not stuck in idiot mode, the genetic reality is that all human population groups evince evidence of breeding with other, previously-considered-non-human population groups like Neandertals, Denisovans, etc.


Don't forget the Basque.
 
2014-04-04 05:43:14 AM  

phaseolus: [media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com image 500x763]

Okey-dokey.


I sure do love the expression on her face...
 
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