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(Edvantage)   In South Korea, gamers who are in college are finally being recognized as student athletes   ( edvantage.com.sg) divider line
    More: Unlikely, South Korea, student athlete, gamers  
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1928 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Apr 2014 at 6:20 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-03 10:34:52 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org

What a real varsity athlete may look like

 
2014-04-03 10:40:25 AM  

Pichu0102: After watching Free to Play, pro gaming can go fark itself. When pro gamers actually receive a living wage and pay for going out and entertaining a large crowd, but get nothing but bills because they lost, we can talk.


Pro golf is the same way.
 
2014-04-03 10:44:22 AM  

Mike_LowELL: Mentalpatient87: Man, you really hate that game, don't you?

In fairness, I pretty much hate any game based on Defense of the Ancients, so I'm just being an equal opportunity partner here.  It doesn't take much to figure out why it's a really bad idea to create an action game using an RTS interface and game model as your base.  If I want to run around a battlefield slaughtering armies with a comically overpowered champion, I'll play Sacrifice, Guilty Gear 2, Brutal Legend, the Ninety-Nine Nights games, or the Kindgom Under Fire games (sans Circle of Doom) before I get near a Dota game.  (Particularly Sacrifice, which almost entirely manifests as a rebuttal of Dota.)


MOBA games are about a competitive play environment that's a touch more tactical than Call of Doody, bringing greater emphasis on decision-making and teamwork than twitch-trigger reflexes and displaying individual skills. Teams with good teamwork but poor individual skills usually beat teams with great individual skill but shiatty teamwork. That's the appeal of the genre.
"Slaughtering armies" is pretty much the opposite of what they're about, they're player v player games. But don't let me stop your hate train, I just wanted to correct your mischaracterization.
 
2014-04-03 10:45:18 AM  

mr.doctor: Mike_LowELL: Oh, just to add, whining over whether people think a video game can be a sport is the least of anyone's worries.  The actual problem is that League of Legends is a terrible game and shouldn't be played by anyone, let alone watched by large audiences, let alone called a sport.  It's more the notion of calling the game a sport in order to hide the fact the game is crap.

I fully support and endorse this statement. I have some friends that poured massive amounts of money into this head of crap. After trying the game, I felt it was extremely bland and nothing worth of note. Of course it is worse if you just watch it instead of play it. Overall a terrible game that does not deserve the praise it gets.


Every MOBA is like this: bland, dull and very simple.

They're baby's first RTS and that's why they're popular. It doesn't take much to learn the basics and there's enough calculated elements to keep addicts in like a drug.

They're only big because the makers have poured tons of money into marketing (and yes even the tournaments are basically giant ads.). The games themselves are aggressively mediocre.
 
2014-04-03 10:47:12 AM  

mr.doctor: Of course it is worse if you just watch it instead of play it.


The irony is that roughly a decade ago, I was repeatedly told by various video game fans that Warcraft III could never cut it as a spectator endeavor because you had to have too much insider knowledge in order to watch and appreciate what was going on in the game.  Now, League of Legends and Dota 2--which are the manifestation of insider knowledge and rote memorization--are the two most popular spectator endeavors in video games.  I dunno.  I guess there are so many people playing the games that the broadcasts now have a ready-made audience.

squegeebooo: I think LoL is a great game, however the players remind me of the people I used to mute when playing FPS's like Call of Duty.

Cobblestone Flag: As many (or more) people play it compulsively as play it because they enjoy it, and I think that ratchets up the terrible, hateful playerbase that the game has.


Dota has toxic team modes because there are no proper sandbox modes where you can learn the game without the game biting back.  It's that simple.  There's no campaigns, you can't learn any real multiplayer skills playing against bots.  (Nor would you want to, because most of the appeal in Dota is what a team of live human players can do to stop your efforts.)  But also, there's few multiplayer formats where players can engage the game without having to deal with the hypercompetitive types who think "learning the game through the act of play" is some sort of heretical notion.  There's no one-on-one and there's no relaxed team formats.  Every time you play, someone else expects you to contribute.

squegeebooo: And, making it free to play, along with the rotating champions, besides skins, is a great way to stop people from just buying their way to good.


The ideal would be to sell people a boxed game that comes with everything, and that way, you can make sure that all of the characters can be designed for each other.  But obviously, that's not nearly as profitable as free-to-play is right now.  The simple fact is that if you're placing all those champions behind a paywall, you can't make them essential parts, so they become disposable, leading to a game with more bloat.  I just think free-to-play is a toxic business model to begin with, and this isn't really a complaint about League of Legends on its lonesome.  Free-to-play forces you to compromise the design of your game, even if you have games like Dota 2 that insist "you're not buying gameplay".  You're still buying visual design choices, and those things need to be carefully considered in the design of the game.

Cobblestone Flag: I think the forty minute-hour long games play into the reward triggering of the brain somehow. The number of people I see on other sites that say "I hate this game. Why do I play it?" is absurd.


Pretty much hits a whole bunch of different fronts, but I suppose the most addictive one is that it takes level-up mechanics and places them within the context of a versus multiplayer game.  You can get the thrill of climbing to level 25 every match you play!
 
2014-04-03 10:47:50 AM  

Mike_LowELL: I'll most certainly vouch that StarCraft II should be studied as an example of absolutely how to destroy your market share.


Mike, can you give a cliff's notes version of how SCII has destroyed Blizzard's market share? As far as I was aware, their professional events in South Korea are still as strong (read: crazy) as ever.
 
2014-04-03 10:50:35 AM  

mokinokaro: mr.doctor: Mike_LowELL: Oh, just to add, whining over whether people think a video game can be a sport is the least of anyone's worries.  The actual problem is that League of Legends is a terrible game and shouldn't be played by anyone, let alone watched by large audiences, let alone called a sport.  It's more the notion of calling the game a sport in order to hide the fact the game is crap.

I fully support and endorse this statement. I have some friends that poured massive amounts of money into this head of crap. After trying the game, I felt it was extremely bland and nothing worth of note. Of course it is worse if you just watch it instead of play it. Overall a terrible game that does not deserve the praise it gets.

Every MOBA is like this: bland, dull and very simple.

They're baby's first RTS and that's why they're popular. It doesn't take much to learn the basics and there's enough calculated elements to keep addicts in like a drug.

They're only big because the makers have poured tons of money into marketing (and yes even the tournaments are basically giant ads.). The games themselves are aggressively mediocre.


Yeah, I saw it as one giant wank on themselves, and their "pros", Trying to watch anything they put on Twitch or streams, it is horrid.

Still I find the game is not a baby-step at all into actual RTS games. They want it as simple as possible to make people feel like they are masters of the game and stay there to teach the newbies a lesson. It is all done very cyclical in my opinion to keep people there to troll another person. No real element for PVP environment, or real strategy for teaming.

Also the meta is crap, where it all revolves around whatever character is OP at the moment before/after the previous nerf is not a meta.
 
2014-04-03 11:16:35 AM  

starsrift: MOBA games are about a competitive play environment that's a touch more tactical than Call of Doody, bringing greater emphasis on decision-making and teamwork than twitch-trigger reflexes and displaying individual skills. Teams with good teamwork but poor individual skills usually beat teams with great individual skill but shiatty teamwork. That's the appeal of the genre.


There are countless excellent games along a wide range of genres which also emphasize teamwork in a versus multiplayer setting, dating all the way back to games like Team Fortress.  The difference is that many of those excellent games--particularly RTS games with team multiplayer modes--were simply an extension of the demands required to play solo game modes.  They were team formats that gave individuals proper agency to distinguish themselves.  "Teamwork" isn't a defining factor of Dota unto itself.

starsrift: "Slaughtering armies" is pretty much the opposite of what they're about, they're player v player games. But don't let me stop your hate train, I just wanted to correct your mischaracterization.


Every game should ideally convey some cool idea or notion.  You have to package it with some sort of visual intrigue.  Ideally, the visual intrigue of the Dota genre is "I'm a badass hero of high fantasy legend, hear me roar", and there are lots of games which do this better than the Dota genre.  The genre is still doing the same things that Defense of the Ancients did in an RTS game engine with limited support for high unit counts and destructible terrain.  Meanwhile, you have games like Kingdom Under Fire II doing things like this.  Dota needs to move on.

imashark: Mike, can you give a cliff's notes version of how SCII has destroyed Blizzard's market share? As far as I was aware, their professional events in South Korea are still as strong (read: crazy) as ever.


My memory on the topic is a bit sketchy, but I'll do the best I can.  Long story short, the Korean e-Sports Players Association (KeSPA) had been running StarCraft: Brood War tournaments for nearly a decade, and so far as anyone knows, they had not paid a dime to Blizzard for royalties.  Basically, that pro scene not only jeopardized the financial success of StarCraft II, but at some point, Blizzard decided that the pro scene threatened their intellectual property rights, most likely the notion that their games could be rebroadcasted at tournaments without the company's consent.  South Korean StarCraft was so culturally entrenched that it could have prevented StarCraft II from getting any traction in Korea.

Blizzard decided to muscle KeSPA out of the way.  They built the new version of Battle.net so all players had to play through the Battle.net service and abide by Blizzard's End User License Agreement.  This way, any companies which wanted to broadcast StarCraft II matches would be doing it in violation of the Battle.net Terms of Use and the Blizzard End User Licensing Agreement.  (Or, in a worst-case scenario, Blizzard could pull the plug on the matches if they were unauthorized.)  And number two, they were prepared to sue the hell out of KeSPA over their unauthorized broadcasts, and KeSPA eventually ceded to a Blizzard licensing process.  During this time, Blizzard gave the StarCraft II broadcasting rights to a company by the name of GomTV, and Blizzard threw their weight behind StarCraft II.  Basically, Blizzard left the Brood War scene for dead to make sure that StarCraft II could live.

In spite of this, the Koreans did not give a shiat about StarCraft II, and the Korean scene is apparently in such dire straights that the top Koreans are simply choosing to play overseas.  This basically left this huge void for professional gaming in Korea that has now been swamped out by League of Legends.  Blizzard destabilized South Korean StarCraft so StarCraft II could have a shot, and they simply blew up both scenes in the process.  StarCraft II may be the most fantastic post-release disaster in the 21st century of video games.  It is amazing how badly Blizzard screwed that up.
 
2014-04-03 11:28:11 AM  

Mike_LowELL: jonny_q: So, what you're really saying about LoL is that ... it insists upon itself.

*looks up meaning of "insists upon itself"*

Yeah, that works.  A pro scene or a "competitive" scene does not mean your game is good, but that's precisely why Riot pushes the tournaments.  They're not just great marketing, they're a great propaganda tool.


Count me in the camp of liking League as well, but this statement hits the nail right on the head. It's amazing how many people (I would probably call them kids because any adult I've talked to who plays this game doesn't really think this way) think that because some pro played a champ that "OMG THIS CHAMP SOOOO OP! I"M GONNA START PLAYING IT AND PWN NOOBS! AND ILL BE SO GOOD ILL GO PRO TOO!" It's really quite sad.

 

squegeebooo: mr.doctor: Mike_LowELL: Oh, just to add, whining over whether people think a video game can be a sport is the least of anyone's worries.  The actual problem is that League of Legends is a terrible game and shouldn't be played by anyone, let alone watched by large audiences, let alone called a sport.  It's more the notion of calling the game a sport in order to hide the fact the game is crap.

I fully support and endorse this statement. I have some friends that poured massive amounts of money into this head of crap. After trying the game, I felt it was extremely bland and nothing worth of note. Of course it is worse if you just watch it instead of play it. Overall a terrible game that does not deserve the praise it gets.

I think LoL is a great game, however the players remind me of the people I used to mute when playing FPS's like Call of Duty.  It allows for casual solo play, casual play with friends, and more competitive playing once you start playing against human opponents.  And, making it free to play, along with the rotating champions, besides skins, is a great way to stop people from just buying their way to good.


Aaaaaand this, this, and this. It's rare a GOOD player will talk smack to a teammate who does poorly, it always seems to be the people who are bad that are the worst harassers. The community really is terrible and I don't really feel their reporting system means shiat. CSS: I even had one person who went so far as to log into all his "smurf" accounts after a game, where he was obviously so much better than me even with his worse farm and k/d, and try and friend me on all of them just to harass me. I mean, it's a consequence of free to play, and you can either deal with that if you like and want to play the game or you don't have to play. It's actually gotten to the point where at the beginning of the game I just mute everyone, there's nothing I can't say in pings. But with Elder Scrolls releasing this week, I won't be playing this much anyway.
 
2014-04-03 11:47:31 AM  

GoldSpider: lack of warmth: And hs golf teams were formed.  Oh, and hs bowling teams.

At least those are competition.


So is chess, but what was your point again?

Maybe back when I was school, we should've started D&D competitions and get varsity jackets for it.
 
2014-04-03 11:49:10 AM  
Ah, South Korea.  It's like everything that's weird or lame about Japan, plus kimchi.
 
2014-04-03 11:53:27 AM  
Mike_LowELL:
My memory on the topic is a bit sketchy, but I'll do the best I can.  Long story short, the Korean e-Sports Players Associa ...

As far as I can tell, SC2 seems to be doing okay in Korea, no where close to BW in it's heyday, but steady. You are totally correct about the top pros often going to overseas tourneys now when in BW's day they probably didn't even have to leave Seoul.

I guess what I'm most curious about is if Blizzard is happy with the fact that they killed off like half the flock but now they get to keep all the wool.
 
2014-04-03 12:10:00 PM  

Mike_LowELL: starsrift: MOBA games are about a competitive play environment that's a touch more tactical than Call of Doody, bringing greater emphasis on decision-making and teamwork than twitch-trigger reflexes and displaying individual skills. Teams with good teamwork but poor individual skills usually beat teams with great individual skill but shiatty teamwork. That's the appeal of the genre.

There are countless excellent games along a wide range of genres which also emphasize teamwork in a versus multiplayer setting, dating all the way back to games like Team Fortress.  The difference is that many of those excellent games--particularly RTS games with team multiplayer modes--were simply an extension of the demands required to play solo game modes.  They were team formats that gave individuals proper agency to distinguish themselves.  "Teamwork" isn't a defining factor of Dota unto itself.

starsrift: "Slaughtering armies" is pretty much the opposite of what they're about, they're player v player games. But don't let me stop your hate train, I just wanted to correct your mischaracterization.

Every game should ideally convey some cool idea or notion.  You have to package it with some sort of visual intrigue.  Ideally, the visual intrigue of the Dota genre is "I'm a badass hero of high fantasy legend, hear me roar", and there are lots of games which do this better than the Dota genre.  The genre is still doing the same things that Defense of the Ancients did in an RTS game engine with limited support for high unit counts and destructible terrain.  Meanwhile, you have games like Kingdom Under Fire II doing things like this.  Dota needs to move on.

imashark: Mike, can you give a cliff's notes version of how SCII has destroyed Blizzard's market share? As far as I was aware, their professional events in South Korea are still as strong (read: crazy) as ever.

My memory on the topic is a bit sketchy, but I'll do the best I can.  Long story short, the Korean e-Sports Players Associa ...


If by defense of the ancients you mean aoen of strife, then you are correct.
 
2014-04-03 01:46:55 PM  

NewbornRook: "OMG THIS CHAMP SOOOO OP! I"M GONNA START PLAYING IT AND PWN NOOBS! AND ILL BE SO GOOD ILL GO PRO TOO!" It's really quite sad.


Making character choices based on the strengths and weaknesses of your personal playstyle and the strength of your opponents is against the meta.  Enjoy your ban.

Tumbleweed Garden: I guess what I'm most curious about is if Blizzard is happy with the fact that they killed off like half the flock but now they get to keep all the wool.


A while back, one of the Firaxis bigwigs recalled a private presentation where Activision COO Thomas Tippl basically said that StarCraft II wasn't worth it, i.e. "it made its money back but the ROI wasn't good enough".  That was before the StarCraft II professional scene imploded.  I don't imagine we're going to be seeing a new RTS from Blizzard any time soon.

hammer85: If by defense of the ancients you mean aoen of strife, then you are correct.


Aeon of Strife really played nothing like Defense of the Ancients, even when Aeon was adapted for a versus multiplayer format.  That's why I prefer to call them Dota games, since League of Legends, Dota 2, Demigod, Awesomenauts, Smite, and whatever else pretty much draws from the glass cannon template and the other concepts found in Defense of the Ancients.  Don't worry, I've given it quite a bit of thought. ^^
 
2014-04-03 02:02:34 PM  
What I got out of this article is there are enough universities in S Korea to necessitate a top 10 list.
 
2014-04-03 02:23:27 PM  
Mike_LowELL:

Aeon of Strife really played nothing like Defense of the Ancients, even when Aeon was adapted for a versus multiplayer format.  That's why I prefer to call them Dota games, since League of Legends, Dota 2, Demigod, Awesomenauts, Smite, and whatever else pretty much draws from the glass cannon template and the other concepts found in Defense of the Ancients.  Don't worry, I've given it quite a bit of thought. ^^

DoTA vastly improved upon it, but AoS had the jungle, hero players computer creep, and item power ups found in DoTA.  DoTA mainly distinguished itself with the custom abilities (pretty sure early AoS just used basic heroes and their skills) and items, making it less of a "RTS match without having to make all my own orcs" to something slightly more unique.

I used to play MOBAs all the time, but now every now and then I just do Infinite Crisis.  Because while it plays like DOTA/LoL, there's something to be said about smashing people with Harley's mallet that makes it more fun than the other two.
 
2014-04-03 03:04:07 PM  
i.imgur.com

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i.imgur.com
 
2014-04-03 03:26:42 PM  
If Chess can be considered a sport.
 
2014-04-03 05:12:46 PM  

Red_Fox: I'll betcha that real athletes still pick on them.


They are real athletes so, what do you mean?
 
2014-04-03 06:23:27 PM  

stuffy: If Chess can be considered a sport.


It can't
 
2014-04-03 06:46:01 PM  
So we're calling obese couch potatoes "athletes" now?
 
2014-04-04 05:19:03 AM  
It's like some Revenge of the Nerds fantasy!
 
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