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(BBC-US)   Italian factory worker spends $20 on two nice painting he sees at an unclaimed property auction, ends up hanging previously stolen Gauguin and Bonnard masterpieces, collectively worth about $30 million on his kitchen wall for 40 years   (bbc.com) divider line 53
    More: Interesting, Gauguin, Pierre Bonnard, Italians, burglar alarms, unclaimed money, paintings  
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6856 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Apr 2014 at 2:43 PM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-02 12:56:49 PM
"They were bought by an art-loving worker, who hung them for 40 years in his kitchen, first in Turin then in Sicily, after he retired," he added.

That's apparently debatable.
 
2014-04-02 01:15:10 PM

thamike: "They were bought by an art-loving worker, who hung them for 40 years in his kitchen, first in Turin then in Sicily, after he retired," he added.

That's apparently debatable.


Well you have to admit he had a good eye for art.  Not an educated one perhaps, but definitely a pretty good asthetic
 
2014-04-02 01:37:39 PM
Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there Lou
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-02 01:41:06 PM
According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.
 
2014-04-02 01:48:08 PM

ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.


Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.
 
2014-04-02 02:04:59 PM

Magorn: ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.

Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.


Probably better just to settle for some lesser amount.  Who really wants a $30+ million piece of art in their house?  It's nice, but not that nice.
 
2014-04-02 02:27:59 PM

Magorn: thamike: "They were bought by an art-loving worker, who hung them for 40 years in his kitchen, first in Turin then in Sicily, after he retired," he added.

That's apparently debatable.

Well you have to admit he had a good eye for art.  Not an educated one perhaps, but definitely a pretty good asthetic



It's still debatable, no matter how you...frame it.
 
2014-04-02 02:46:25 PM

onecanshort: Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there Lou


It worked, didn't it? Can't argue with results.
 
2014-04-02 02:52:52 PM

EvilEgg: Magorn: ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.

Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.

Probably better just to settle for some lesser amount.  Who really wants a $30+ million piece of art in their house?  It's nice, but not that nice.


I'd rather have $30 million cash and a print of a piece of art I like than a $30 million original.

Of course my pocket money budget is several zeros less than $30,000,000.00
 
2014-04-02 02:54:54 PM

onecanshort: Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there Lou


Came here to say the same thing.  Leaving satisfied.
 
2014-04-02 03:01:10 PM

Oldiron_79: I'd rather have $30 million cash and a print of a piece of art I like than a $30 million original.

Of course my pocket money budget is several zeros less than $30,000,000.00


Get a decent painter to paint a copy in the same style, that tends to be nicer than a print.
 
2014-04-02 03:02:51 PM
I would SO love to win the "art lottery".  But considering I don't give a crap enough about paintings to ever go look for one, let alone buy one, I don't think I ever will.

I'd have a better chance of finding $10M in gold coins while walking my dog.  Except that I don't have a dog.
 
2014-04-02 03:04:45 PM

Magorn: ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.

Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.


So the cops get the credit and the lawyers get the money.

Somethings are the same wherever you go.
 
2014-04-02 03:07:09 PM
Unlike the artist, he won't get caught short.
 
2014-04-02 03:07:48 PM

Oldiron_79: EvilEgg: Magorn: ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.

Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.

Probably better just to settle for some lesser amount.  Who really wants a $30+ million piece of art in their house?  It's nice, but not that nice.

I'd rather have $30 million cash and a print of a piece of art I like than a $30 million original.

Of course my pocket money budget is several zeros less than $30,000,000.00


Right now, yeah. If I already had a billion dollars, though? I'd probably want the art.
 
2014-04-02 03:08:05 PM

Magorn: However, the rules on stolen art get complicated


It was a gift.
From Hitler.
I couldn't return it.
 
2014-04-02 03:14:02 PM
"Art police"

My god, hanging that painting with those drapes is criminal! And who told you that thing was sculpture!?
 
2014-04-02 03:15:25 PM
TFA states that the painting is valued at $14.5 million US (€10.8 million), and that's the journalist's equivalent of cop math at best.  They then add that it may be worth €30 million!
Man finds $750,000 painting hanging on his wall = semi-meh
Man finds $14,500,000 painting hanging on his wall = OMG TEH PAGE CLICKS
 
2014-04-02 03:18:42 PM
Sad that most anyone who finds a treasure like this, even if they want to keep it, could never afford the insurance, so they are almost forced to sell.

As for true ownership, Individuals who find works like this can end up in court for decades, but nations and large museums can tell other countries to fark off when they call for their art and artifacts to be returned.
 
2014-04-02 03:23:02 PM

LemSkroob: Sad that most anyone who finds a treasure like this, even if they want to keep it, could never afford the insurance, so they are almost forced to sell.

As for true ownership, Individuals who find works like this can end up in court for decades, but nations and large museums can tell other countries to fark off when they call for their art and artifacts to be returned.


I'm not sure that you can insure unique works of art.
 
2014-04-02 03:31:40 PM
news.bbcimg.co.uk

Now carefully guarded by a Nazi officer?
 
2014-04-02 03:39:36 PM

Oldiron_79: I'd rather have $30 million cash and a print of a piece of art I like than a $30 million original.


This. You should see what the kitchen walls look like every place I've had, grease stains everywhere.

Of course my pocket money budget is several zeros less than $30,000,000.00

Also this.
 
2014-04-02 03:42:17 PM

onecanshort: Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there Lou Luigi

 
2014-04-02 03:42:53 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 640x360]

Now carefully guarded by a Nazi officer?


You should try going in through an airport or sea crossing. They have these guys (but another color) with SMGs ready for anything.

/not at land crossings though
//neighbors are more predictable than us barbarian outlanders from across the sea
 
2014-04-02 03:47:39 PM
They'll just confiscate the stolen paintings.  The guy will be lucky if some generous sold gives his $20 back.
 
2014-04-02 03:48:15 PM
. . . "generous soul".  Gah.
 
2014-04-02 03:52:10 PM

EdNortonsTwin: Magorn: ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.

Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.

So the cops get the credit and the lawyers get the money.

Somethings are the same wherever you go.


Which somethings?  All of them?
 
2014-04-02 03:56:23 PM
So did he get his money back?
 
2014-04-02 03:57:03 PM

Magorn: ZAZ: According to the Guardian article, there is no known person with a superior claim to the paintings but distant relatives of the dead former owner are expected to come out of the woodwork.

Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.  However, the rules on stolen art get complicated, and there would be some question as to whether this guy who bought it from the Italian Railway, wouldn't qualify as a "bona-fide Purchaser in due course"   since he was unaware that the item was stolen property and purchased it in good faith having no connection to the original theft.  Moreover the person who sold it to him had lawfully acquired good title to the work under operation of Italian law since the railway is allowed to take title, and then sell items of unclaimed property after a set number of days.

If he can claim BFP status, it's probably his, and all other claims are extinguished.   I would expect he'll probably have to spend the value of the lesser work (about $600,000 ) proving that in court however.


That bold part, there? Yeah.

As for the rest, if it were me, I would offer the lesser valued painting as the contingency fee for a lawyer to win the case for me
 
2014-04-02 04:00:13 PM
Nice of them to include a large picture of each painting...
 
2014-04-02 04:06:32 PM

Tillmaster: LemSkroob: Sad that most anyone who finds a treasure like this, even if they want to keep it, could never afford the insurance, so they are almost forced to sell.

As for true ownership, Individuals who find works like this can end up in court for decades, but nations and large museums can tell other countries to fark off when they call for their art and artifacts to be returned.

I'm not sure that you can insure unique works of art.


You're kidding, right?

Of course you can insure them. They're investments with significant value, and if you don't insure them, you're a fool. You get them appraised, and if stolen or destroyed, you get a payout of whatever that appraised value is, probably adjusted for current market conditions.
 
2014-04-02 04:10:23 PM

cptjeff: Tillmaster: LemSkroob: Sad that most anyone who finds a treasure like this, even if they want to keep it, could never afford the insurance, so they are almost forced to sell.

As for true ownership, Individuals who find works like this can end up in court for decades, but nations and large museums can tell other countries to fark off when they call for their art and artifacts to be returned.

I'm not sure that you can insure unique works of art.

You're kidding, right?

Of course you can insure them. They're investments with significant value, and if you don't insure them, you're a fool. You get them appraised, and if stolen or destroyed, you get a payout of whatever that appraised value is, probably adjusted for current market conditions.


In order to get insurance you've got to show that you have pretty damned good security.
 
2014-04-02 04:11:51 PM

thamike: "They were bought by an art-loving worker, who hung them for 40 years in his kitchen, first in Turin then in Sicily, after he retired," he added.

That's apparently debatable.


Yes it is. I suggest you take the position that he hates art, while I argue the opposite. We'll see who scores most points.
 
2014-04-02 04:12:29 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 640x360]

Now carefully guarded by a Nazi officer?


No, you're thinkng of The Fallen Madonna With The Big Boobies
 
2014-04-02 04:13:35 PM

vudukungfu: Magorn: However, the rules on stolen art get complicated

It was a gift.
From Hitler.
I couldn't return it.


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2014-04-02 04:14:04 PM
So... did the guy get any kind of compensation for returning them, or what?
 
2014-04-02 04:45:48 PM

peacheslatour: cptjeff: Tillmaster: LemSkroob: Sad that most anyone who finds a treasure like this, even if they want to keep it, could never afford the insurance, so they are almost forced to sell.

As for true ownership, Individuals who find works like this can end up in court for decades, but nations and large museums can tell other countries to fark off when they call for their art and artifacts to be returned.

I'm not sure that you can insure unique works of art.

You're kidding, right?

Of course you can insure them. They're investments with significant value, and if you don't insure them, you're a fool. You get them appraised, and if stolen or destroyed, you get a payout of whatever that appraised value is, probably adjusted for current market conditions.

In order to get insurance you've got to show that you have pretty damned good security.


Even if you don't have great security, I'm sure you'd find somebody willing to insure it. The premium won't exactly be cheap, though.
 
2014-04-02 04:52:35 PM

Crudbucket: onecanshort: Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there Lou

It worked, didn't it? Can't argue with results.


hey funboys, get a room. Undt mach schnell mit der paintings, I have to get to a kraftwerk show in Stuttgart.
 
2014-04-02 04:54:18 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 640x360]

Now carefully guarded by a Nazi officer?


now we're all rich! Rich as Nazis!
 
2014-04-02 04:54:56 PM

Magorn: Actually I'd bet there is an insurance company somewhere that paid out from the original theft who would feel entitled to claim it.


Given that we're talking about Italy here, there's a very good chance the insurance compay will attempt to implicate him in the original theft.

Likewise, there's a good chance that they'd be right.
 
2014-04-02 04:57:58 PM

vudukungfu: Unlike the artist, he won't get caught short.


No, you're thinking of Toulouse-Lautrec
 
2014-04-02 05:18:03 PM

cptjeff: Even if you don't have great security, I'm sure you'd find somebody willing to insure it. The premium won't exactly be cheap, thou


Lloyd's of London

.
 
2014-04-02 06:01:34 PM

onecanshort: Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there Lou


That would be Luigi.
 
2014-04-02 06:06:38 PM

onecanshort: Italian culture minister Dario Franceschini said: "It's an incredible story, an amazing recovery. A symbol of all the work which Italian art police have put in over the years behind the scenes."

Which is to sit back and wait for someone to call them saying, 'Hey we found some old stolen art'.

That's some fine police work there  Lou

 Luigi.

ftfm
 
2014-04-02 06:08:48 PM
Damnit.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-02 06:56:03 PM
It's a good day for those who enjoy reading about stolen art. Coincidentally, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court has just issued its decision in Bakwin v. Mardirosian. Lawyer Robert Mardirosian had an art thief client who stole Bakwin's valuable paintings. The client died, leaving the paintings on Mardirosian's property. Rather than return the stolen paintings, he tried to sell them after a cooling off period. He was foiled by the Art Loss Register and is now in federal prison. The SJC today affirmed judgments under the Uniform Fraudulent Transfer Act against some people he tried to give his assets to once he knew he was going to get sued.
 
2014-04-02 07:23:57 PM

Jument: So... did the guy get any kind of compensation for returning them, or what?




I bet the standard finders fee of 20% from the insurance company.
 
2014-04-02 09:01:54 PM

Ctrl-Alt-Del: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 640x360]

Now carefully guarded by a Nazi officer?

No, you're thinkng of The Fallen Madonna With The Big Boobies


I see Im not the only one that watched that show.
 
2014-04-03 02:50:22 AM
Why is it "great" art always looks horrible? I mean, smudgy, badly-drawn or formed shiat like this.
 
2014-04-03 10:22:50 AM
s1.favim.com

I_Am_Weasel: It's still debatable, no matter how you...



qph.is.quoracdn.net

...frame it.


wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net
 
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