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(The Atlantic)   Twenty years ago, it was mathematically possible to work your way through college with a minimum-wage job. Now? Not so much   (theatlantic.com) divider line 60
    More: Obvious, minimum wages, credit hours, institution of higher education, limiting factor, Murray State, Michigan State University  
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5601 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Apr 2014 at 2:16 PM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-02 12:25:53 PM
13 votes:
I'm not sure it's actually possible to work your way though life with a minimum-wage job, let alone through college.
2014-04-02 12:55:54 PM
7 votes:
I had to click the article and read the first few paragraphs to see if this was putting the blame on minimum wage being low, or college tuition increasing at a pace far ahead of inflation.


So, it's the latter, which to me is the critical issue. The example of a credit hour that adjusted for inflation would be around $80, but in reality is over $400 is pretty staggering.


Cool Bootstrappy Story Time,

I put myself through college with a warehouse job. It paid more than minimum wage, $10.58/hour, and I worked 28-35 hours a week, which I certainly don't recommend.

I lived at home and went to an institution in my home city. The courses for my entire degree (without books) cost $13,000 and I still needed some help from my parents to cover a few bills over the span of the 4 years.

But in the end I graduated with zero debt.


Now, what does my semi-bootstrappy story have to do with this? I lived a very lean and unglamorous college existence and paid a very cheap rate for my education, AND I STILL NEEDED HELP FROM MY PARENTS.

It's tough out there. Real tough.
2014-04-02 01:41:13 PM
4 votes:

thamike: You're getting into it with somebody who, in all seriousness, claims his tuition was "$400-600-ish per semester" and whose books for 5 or 6 classes cost "a total of $150."


If he's as anywhere nearly as old as I am, I most certainly believe him.  Because I paid even less.

Of course, I am old as the hills, and I graduated from college close to 30 years ago.  My tuition, at a state university (the University of Nevada), was $17/credit when I started.  For 15 credits, that would be $255/semester.  And yeah, $150 for the books sounds about what I paid (as long as I bought used ones when available).  30 years later, I see now on the university's website that resident undergrad tuition is up to $203 per credit.  That's 1200% of what I had to pay 30 years ago.

My wife graduated from college about the same time, from the University of California (Berkeley).  When my wife started at Berkeley, she paid "fees" (U.C. refused to call it "tuition" until about 2 or 3 years ago--they always said they had no tuition, only certain "fees") of $3100 as a non-resident of California, and then the next three years as a California resident, she paid fees of all of about $750 for the year ($375 per semester)--to attend one of the finest public universities in the country.  This year, 30 years later, nonresidents at U.C. pay $35,800 (1150% of what my wife paid as a nonresident) while resident tuition is now $12,900 (1500% of what she paid as a resident).

I have a kid who's going to start college in 2 years.  I'm really not liking these numbers at all.  Especially since she's more interested in certain private schools, whose tuition rates make even those sound dirt cheap by comparison.
2014-04-02 12:46:59 PM
4 votes:

Cyberluddite: I'm not sure it's actually possible to work your way though life with a minimum-wage job, let alone through college.


Done in two.
d23 [TotalFark]
2014-04-02 03:34:18 PM
3 votes:

ManRay: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: What's funny is college is a lot more affordable if you actually try your whole life and get scholarships and a real degree that you can leverage.

Whoa there buddy, don't start throwing around ideas like that. This is about the rest of the world owing you something, not what you can do for yourself.


Sorry... this is a bullshiat argument to anyone that lives outside the corporate bubble.  Literature, for instance, is worth study... what has happened is that a lot of people don't find value in anything that doesn't make them cash.  And the entitlement argument can be seen as a backwards form of projection.  Just because something doesn't make a corporation a wad of cash doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.  There are things worth subsidizing because it makes society a better place to live in.
2014-04-02 02:59:45 PM
3 votes:

ManRay: I was in college 20 years ago. I had to work to keep myself in school. I was able to survive though, because I was able to do work that paid above minimum wage. If you are not able to do anything but the minimum, then maybe you need to rethink college.


1: Gain an education to enhance your earnings
2: If your earnings are low, maybe education is not for you

Therefore: Don't be born so poor you have to work.

That about right?
2014-04-02 04:37:36 PM
2 votes:
The interesting thing about college education is that by making it open to nearly anyone with the desire, it has become almost mandatory, yet also devalued.

The problem with the cost of college is that enormous amounts of funding are being offered to 19 year olds who are neither suited for higher education, nor responsible enough to understand what paying back a loan really means.

So everybody has to get a college degree just to meet the foot-in-the-door minimum, and all the buy-now-pay-later funding means that the cost has somehow risen to meet what the market will bear. If only certain social engineers, who decided that higher education was a universal right, hadn't had such a disdain of capitalism that they were wilfully ignorant of how it works.

But you knew all this, and the rest of the thread is just the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the damned. Excuse me for now, that young lady with a comp lit degree and a bone in her nose is bringing me my coffee. Ta.
2014-04-02 03:11:35 PM
2 votes:

dpzum1: Tigger: I went here and it was free.

[www.ctcoxfordshire.org.uk image 460x288]

But you know socialisms and whatnot.

Free??? Oh, so ridiculous income and sales taxes paid by you and the other people who didn't go there weren't paying for that education?

Just because you didn't write them a check, doesn't mean you didn't pay for it.
/and you actually went to college???/


Don't be a pointlessly contrarian cocksucker. You know exactly what I meant.
2014-04-02 03:04:15 PM
2 votes:

what_now: Yeah, it can't. I get that it sucks, and that's the worst farking thing, but unless you're at Harvard funds are limited.

And a parent choosing not to pay for college vs a parent who has no money and CAN'T pay is not a hard choice.

Does it suck that the students are punished? Of course. But if you said "Well, if you're parents won't pay, just let us know" every single parent would say "Uhh..yeah. I'm not paying for that".

I've had PLENTY of people tell me "Well, I worked my own way through college, and I want my kid to do the same, so I'm not going to support them" and get annoyed when I say that the school won't support them either.


18 year olds are adults in the eyes of law the law, why should their need be gauged by their farking parents income if their parents are not giving it to them?
2014-04-02 02:48:32 PM
2 votes:

Cyberluddite: I'm not sure it's actually possible to work your way though life with a minimum-wage job, let alone through college.


I live in northern california, sonoma county. Currently minimum wage is $8 per hour, and a lot of places actually pay that, though some pay better (inNout pays 10.50).

8x40=320 per week
320x4=1280 per month
- taxes = 1050 approximately per month

Rent for a 1 bedroom apartment will be around $1200. A 3 bedroom house goes for 1800 a month.
Unemployment among males under 30 is still over 25% here. Overall unemployment is well over 10%.
The chances of getting a minimum wage job that actually gives you 40 hours a week is zero. They do not exist here.

It is not possible to live by yourself off a minimum wage job without other sources of income in California, and I doubt there is many places in the US where it is possible.

I work for myself now, and Im making a decent living, but only because I dont have a car anymore. The extra expenses of a car would be enough to get me in trouble with money again.
2014-04-02 02:47:58 PM
2 votes:

lilplatinum: If you are working for minimum wage in college you are doing it wrong.  Be a competent waiter or bartender or get an office job or sell some farking weed... If all you can find is flipping burgers, maybe you shouldn't be in college in the first place.


Hmmm. If you are 18, 19 or 20 you aren't getting a bartending job, you aren't getting an office job unless you know somebody in charge, you could be a waiter, but probably at places like Applebee's, and if you get caught selling weed you have a criminal record. When you are in that age range, because if your lack of experience, their aren't very many choices.
2014-04-02 02:28:01 PM
2 votes:

Cyberluddite: I'm not sure it's actually possible to work your way though life with a minimum-wage job, let alone through college.


I bet there are some recent college graduates who would take any job right about now.
2014-04-02 02:23:31 PM
2 votes:
Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.

I loved paying $150 a semester for a rec center that was never open due to construction.
And the $50 computer fee for computers that were never used and that had been DONATED.
Its not even nickel and diming to death anymore, its full dinner night out checking.
2014-04-02 02:22:13 PM
2 votes:
I should clarify:

When looking up IPEDS data, your most important field should be "Cohort Default Rate". This is the rate and number of students who are in federal default on their student loans. If this number is over 10% throw the school's brochure away.

/also look at graduation rate
2014-04-02 02:21:17 PM
2 votes:
Impossible, I was reassured by a Fark Engineer that if he could work 40 hours a week at $5.50/hr, take a full class load, and drink, smoke pot, and Fark every night then someone could easily do that today.
2014-04-02 02:11:23 PM
2 votes:

Dr Dreidel: ZAZ: ...and that would be true even if minimum wage were $15 per hour. Doubling minimum wage would cut the job hours per credit hour ratio back to the 1993 level. That is when the article said working through school became impractical.

Isn't there a pretty obvious trend, where every dollar the state stopped giving their schools has been made up by the students?

Like, since 1993 (or whenever), the states reduced funding by $X billion (in 2014 dollars), and tuition's gone up by roughly that same figure?


I'm pretty sure that no place is more symptomatic of that than California, especially after Prop 13 passed in 1979.   Before that, the University of California was essentially free for California residents ($0 tuition, about $500 a year in "fees"), but as I mentioned above, resident tuition at U.C. is now about $13,000 and nonresident tuition is about $36,000.  Prior to Prop 13, a huge majority of the U.C. budget (80% maybe?) came from tax dollars, and now it's something like 10%, with the rest coming from tuition, private donations, and research money.
2014-04-02 01:03:50 PM
2 votes:

phaseolus: Hell, that's exactly what I did for the first couple years. Lived at home, took the city bus to school, tuition was $400-600ish per semester and books for 5 or 6 classes cost a total of $150 which seemed really outrageous at the time. Working 20 hours a week in the UWM union snack bar paid for it all.


Then you weren't exactly supporting yourself on a minimum wage job, unless perhaps you were paying rent to your parents (at the full market rental value), not using any of the electricity/heat/etc. that they paid for, and not eating any of their food.
2014-04-02 12:55:16 PM
2 votes:
At one point I had two jobs barely over min wage in college. Computer lab assistant for the win, do school work AND get paid. Best was pulling late hours at a rarely used computer lab so you wouldn't have to deal with anyone.

Barely paid for room and board, had loans to pay for the rest of it.

Personally I don't see what's wrong about getting student loans to pay for college. What I do think is wrong is not bothering to actually teach the kids who pay to learn and for making student loans non-dischargable. In some cases that can be a life sentence as kids can't pay off loans and wages are garnished. The US is not a fiefdom but we sure have done a lot to make it that way.

As always the answer seems to be kill all the bankers and lawyers. I'm sensing a trend here.
2014-04-02 12:52:09 PM
2 votes:
I couldn't work my way through college on minimum wage jobs in the 70s without taking out student loans.

For some strange calculations, because I was supporting myself on those same minimum wage jobs, I therefore was ineligible for grants or financial assistance though, i.e. free money for college.

/I still don't understand the logic.
2014-04-02 08:03:25 PM
1 votes:

lilplatinum: Smackledorfer: Now you are just a liar. I expect no less from someone who thinks the solution of un and underemployment is 'everybody wait tables, there is are infinite job openings'.

You seriously have a reading comprehension problem or you like to make up things I said.   Saying that college kids can realistically get jobs above minimum wage has nothing to do with solutions for un and undermployment, nor were those things you seemingly quoted me saying (with the incorrect marks) ever typed by me in this or any other thread.

Also, where am I a liar?  Where did you offer any links?


You insisted that there are sufficient job openings that all students can be waiters and bartenders. That is absurd on its face in a good economy, and moreso with high unemployment on the whole.

When you are ready to leave fantasy land and acknowledge that you cannot simply tell everyone to magically solve their money problems by getting better jobs, let us know.
2014-04-02 06:52:00 PM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: FizixJunkee: /// professor: the job that lets you choose which 60 hours/week you work.

*image link laughing gif*



You really are a retard, aren't you?

My husband is a professor.  I have dozens of close friends---like, people I can call up on the phone right now and chat with...not distant Facebook acquaintances---who are professors at various stages of their careers.  The people getting tenure-track positions today ARE THE BEST AT WHAT THEY DO.  They are experts in their fields.  They have spent 6-10+ years getting their PhDs, plus 3-10 years doing post docs.  They bring in MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for their universities via external funding.

My husband brings in more money to his university than he receives from them; his salary is essentially FREE to his school.  His salary is NOT coming from student tuition dollars.

They are the experts in their fields.  They work all the farking time.  Their grants provide millions of dollars to the university coffers.

And you begrudge them their middle class salaries?!!?  Are you farking serious?

Very few profs, especially the younger ones starting out, earn anything near $100,000/year.   Those making that much are very, very lucky and are at the most elite institutions.   I know far more profs making ~$60,000/year than $100,000+.    And these are professors in STEM fields, not arts and humanities.

In most any other field, a world-class expert would not be looked down upon for making $100,000/year.  Yet, for some reason, you expect university professors not to earn that much?

Go fark yourself, and your Mitt Romney blow-up doll, too.
2014-04-02 06:16:49 PM
1 votes:

Cyberluddite: PsiChick: I live an hour away. That's the major problem. Hopefully I'll get enough scholarships to pull it off...


What area do you live in?


'An hour away from Reno' is the most specific I'm getting online, sorry.
2014-04-02 05:55:39 PM
1 votes:

OgreMagi: Cyberluddite: I'm pretty sure that no place is more symptomatic of that than California, especially after Prop 13 passed in 1979.

Ah.  Another person who blames everything on prop 13.  I guess you haven't figured out that California has some of the highest overall taxes in the entire country, despite the caps on property taxes.  Also, property taxes were primarily a LOCAL (county) revenue source while our state universities are funded through the state budget.


California's biggest problem, tax-wise, is that it limited its most steady, predictable source of revenue (property taxes) and now is forced to rely almost exclusively on unpredictable, uneven sources that are directly affected by the state of the economy (income tax and sales tax).  So it creates boom-and-bust cycles that fark up the budget on both ends of the spectrum, given that the idiots in the Legislature overspend in the boom years and in the bust years it creates a vortex of debt and decreased government services/spending that further flushes the state's economy down the shiatter.  That ain't no way to run a state.

But hey, Prop 13 is great for me personally, because I'm old and I bought my house 16 years ago at the bottom of the market, and my taxes will never increase to market levels.  All the new buyers get to subsidize me--suck on that, kids!  My property taxes are less than $2000 a year, but my next door neighbor, whose house is smaller than mine and worth less, pays around $5000 a year because she bought her house only a few years ago.  Prop 13 was pitched as a way to keep grandma and grandpa in their houses in their golden years, but in this case my neighbor is a single, widowed, retired senior citizen with recent health problems, who pays more than twice as much in taxes as her working, middle-aged neighbor who has a bigger, more valuable house (i.e., me).  Sucks to be her, but hey, great for me!

Of course, my wife and I have considered buying another house, and one of the things that keeps us from doing that is the fact that we would at least triple our property taxes if we bought a new house, even if it was a similar value to our present house.  So in that respect, Prop 13 creates a disincentive to move up in real estate and is a drag on the real estate sales market.
2014-04-02 05:39:45 PM
1 votes:

PsiChick: You did that at UNR?! Holy farking shiat I'm getting ripped off.

/Hoping to head there in the fall
//Not sure I'll be able to afford it


Well, it helps to be as old as dirt and to have gone there in the days when dinosaurs ruled the earth, but yeah, it was farking cheap.  Not only that, but I got some scholarship money, so it was essentially free.

It's not a bad school at all, and it's still surprisingly affordable.  $200 a credit isn't bad--that's only about $7000 a year in tuition for a full load of classes.  And Reno is a pretty affordable place to live as a student--reasonably-priced housing, cheap food, and cheap (or free) booze at nearby casinos.  Also a very pretty and pleasant campus, and a respected and talented faculty.  If you go there, you will enjoy it.
2014-04-02 04:48:31 PM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year.  Very principled.


Wow, you must be a real captain of industry if you think $100K is anything like CEO pay.  Just so you know, that's $100K per year, not per week.

I don't know where you live, but around here, a significant number of people who make $100K per year don't even have college degrees at all--they may not even have high school diplomas.
2014-04-02 04:44:25 PM
1 votes:

ikanreed: Does anyone else smell plutocracy?


I think it might be wafting over from the Supreme Court thread, but I think the real villain here is the monetization of colleges, which have fully transitioned away from institutions designed for education and enrichment into what are effectively taxpayer-subsidized boarding schools designed to generate as much profit as possible for the school's board members and administrators, the overwhelming majority of whom make more than any of the educational faculty.

Colleges and the financial world have colluded to form a system by which very nearly all career-path jobs require a Bachelor's degree just to even get as far as being reviewed by HR. Colleges have likewise spent their time indoctrinating and propagandizing themselves to parents and kids alike that the only hope for a successful future is to go to college; and for better or worse, statistics back them up on that. Combined with a bevy of parasitic and exploitative side-businesses (college sports, textbook rackets, student loan financial institutions), it has created a system by which the only way you can succeed is to be born into enough wealth to bear the costs.

There are probably some reforms Congress could undertake to fix these problems, but I'm rather pessimistic about that possibility. College is currently in a bubble state of endless price increase that can't last much longer.
2014-04-02 04:25:22 PM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.


This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.


Uh, no. Professors are nowhere NEAR that much of what a college's money goes to. Hell, colleges are doing everything they can to kill tenure and simply turn academia into a tiered system of administrators that rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars and converting their faculties into nothing but adjuncts and assistant professors working on-contract for a few thousand dollars a semester.

/adjunct history instructor
//you want to find the waste in college education, it's all going into administration
///no college president has ever justified more than 100K/year
2014-04-02 03:41:23 PM
1 votes:

AngryDragon: The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: Obviously there are outliers, but people teaching college who are starting their careers now are definitely not people to be jealous of or angry with

Fair enough.  So exactly where the hell is all that money going?



www.biogeocreations.com

Looks like a lot of it goes to the athletic department.
2014-04-02 03:40:57 PM
1 votes:
Thanks, Taftbongo.

If the federal government is going to back federal student loans, guess what happens?
2014-04-02 03:35:48 PM
1 votes:

redmid17: If you think you are in the grey area between gen x and gen y, it's about 99% certain that you are gen y.


It's a grey area because it's defined differently.  I'm 81, so I still remember the 80s well and grew up with GI Joe and Mask and Transformers and all that shiat (especially as my brother was 4 years older and firmly generation x).   I also remember a pre-internet time (I was a little nerd and ran a BBS in middle school).   But on the other hand I did have a computer my whole life, not sure where that places me.
2014-04-02 03:32:28 PM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year.  Very principled.


While I get that the "old regime" has in some ways earned this perception, things are changing immensely.  I had the parents who claimed me as a dependent but wouldn't give a dime towards my college (said I should have gotten a full ride, and even went so far as to make me pay for my classes at the school my mom worked at, then took the refund checks as "rent").  I busted my butt, worked full time though a BA and MA (took while-was in business working 50+ hours) and when I finally realized I'd rather be dirt broke than work with noting contributed to society, made $19k my first year teaching as an adjunct.  I usually picked up 5-7 classes each regular semester, and 4 in the summer.  With the new health care laws, schools are now frequently relying on up to 80% adjunct labor, so chances are, if someone teaches college, they are not making anywhere near $100k.  When I finally secured a full time position, making $43k, I taught 5 classes each semester, plus 5 hours/week committee work, plus 5 hours/week meeting/office hours, plus got to prep for 3 different courses and grade 120 essays every 3-4 weeks (taking roughly 25 minutes per essay).  Granted, I seem to care more than my more senior colleagues, who can't believe I actually take the time to offer annotations, rubrics, and recorded mini-lectures for each student in response to those essays.

Obviously there are outliers, but people teaching college who are starting their careers now are definitely not people to be jealous of or angry with.
2014-04-02 03:27:45 PM
1 votes:
CSB:

I was an idiot out of high school:  My parent wanted me to get a college education.  I, being 18, knew my vast wealth of brains, coupled with me innate understanding of the world would surely be all I would need to truly succeed - yet my parents insisted I at least go to the local college to get my generals under my belt, and, depending on my GPA - I could then transfer to the school of my choice to pursue whatever I decided was right for me.  But, as long as I maintained a decent GPA and stuff, they would pay for my tuition/books, etc.  My dad also wanted me to have a part time job, but said if it interfered with my studies, he would pay for my other expenses...feeling the education HE never got was something his daughter wasn't going to miss out on.

Well - two years and a lack of desire really didn't help much in terms of forging a successful college career:  My GPA, coupled with my tendancy to skip the classes, I learned, most instructors never gave a shiat if I actually showed up for, meant my Dad pulled the plug on the funding. (His exact words:  If I had a stock that was performing this shiatty, I wouldn't dare keep my money in it.)  That's OK - I was 20!  I KNEW IT ALL!

Two years of working shiat jobs was far enough time for me to realize that I did not, in fact, know it all, and I would need a degree if I ever wanted any hope of having a wider variety of choices, vocationally speaking.  I approached my Dad with my desire to return to the academic career - he was very frank:  I blew my one shot at a free ride - however, as long as I came up with the funding, he would give me a roof over my head while I got a degree, and, as long as I continued to work towards that and not screw around...he would let me move in and not ask for rent/utilities.  But I had to pay for it.

Suffice to say, three jobs while going to school full time, (Got real lucky with my part time jobs - helped augment my education with experience in my, at the time, chosen field.) AND student loans/scholarships/pell grants (Had to retake several of my previous courses to get those shiatty grades off my GPA), taught me more than the initial free ride ever could have.  While I'm still kicking myself for not capitalizing on the original opportunity my parents were more than willing to hand to me and I pissed all over - I still learned a valuable lesson once I actually GOT my degree, and managed to value the accomplishment.

I can't imagine being a parent today and having to cover the tuition costs - would scare the bejesus out of me.  But, also - before you actually send your kid off to learn...make damned sure they are actually ready to take on the responsibility they will need to actually get the education.  That investment is too freakin huge now, and I can't imagine how rage-filled my 'rents woulda been had they had to pay today's tuition prices for their daughter to initially just flunk out because she wasn't ready to do her part.
2014-04-02 03:26:06 PM
1 votes:

AngryDragon: SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year. Very principled.

This irritates me as well.


yeah, liberals defending middle class incomes makes me want to smash something.
2014-04-02 03:21:47 PM
1 votes:

what_now: You've just graduated from HS, where presumably, you lived with your parents. Now you're going to college. How would you propose that we "prove" that the parents won't support the student any longer?


I don't know, make a system showing bank records, rental records, etc. or some such to prove it.  Obviously any system can be scammed, but if you are offering aid to adults it should not be predicated on their parents income because the system is a bit more difficult to implement.

Or just eliminate grants altogether and make student loans dischargable through bankruptcy - make kids pay their own way but give them an out.   It's the same mentality banks were giving me and my other friends tens of thousands of dollars of credit when we were 18 or 19 and the risk seemed okay for them.
2014-04-02 03:16:48 PM
1 votes:
The cost is minimum wage PLUS student loan borrowing capacity.

The more the federal government got involved, the more the schools jacked up the prices.
2014-04-02 03:16:21 PM
1 votes:
Ow! That was my feelings!:

College students are not considered 'adults' when it comes to student aid, if they are under 25. I was an independent 20 year old with a full time job when I started college. I had to prove I was independent and self-sufficient in order to receive the most basic aid.

I am aware of that, I was complaining about that very thing.

//18yr old are not really treated as adults in this country, don't be pedantic.

They are legally adults, I never said anything about being treated as adults.  Many 28 year olds aren't treated like adults in this farking country, it is kind of a problem with my generation (maybe, i'm in the grey zone between gen X and mellinials).
2014-04-02 03:13:19 PM
1 votes:

what_now: lilplatinum: 18 year olds are adults in the eyes of law the law, why should their need be gauged by their farking parents income if their parents are not giving it to them?

Ok.

Let's do that. Let's give Pell Grants based on the income of an 18 year old.

That kid who worked two jobs in school to help pay the rent? He's too rich for a grant.
The kid who's never worked a day in his life? Well, he's below the poverty line. Free money for him!!


Kids certainly shouldn't be penalized for working themselves and saving, if it can be proven that the amount saved is obtainable with the W-2s of that kid's work history (up to point x or whatever), he should still qualify.

Similarly, a legal adult can prove they are not getting income from their parents, they should qualify just like anyone else who has a similar lack of income.   It's no more his fault he has parents who are unwilling to support him than it is someone who has parents who are unable to support them.

In reality it should be like Europe where university is free and for those who actually should go to university, and we should have trade schools for many, many more subjects so they just aren't for retards who can't read.
2014-04-02 03:11:56 PM
1 votes:
I am way past college age.   You kids in college do have it hard financially.   The economy crapped out and has been slow to recover.   Little anyone can do.

They did spend billions on wind mills and solar panels to try and help the economy.   They bailed out car companies and banks.    But they did very little to help the middle class or middle class kids in college.

You did not luck out.

You took the AP classes,  you were top 5% of your class, you picked a moderate school wisely.    But you are going to rack up debt and it mostly because of bad luck and timing.    You do not have it easy.   But right now your parents don't have it easy either.

It's the economy,  and I think it will be this way for at least another 10 years.
2014-04-02 03:08:22 PM
1 votes:

lilplatinum: 18 year olds are adults in the eyes of law the law, why should their need be gauged by their farking parents income if their parents are not giving it to them?


Ok.

Let's do that. Let's give Pell Grants based on the income of an 18 year old.

That kid who worked two jobs in school to help pay the rent? He's too rich for a grant.
The kid who's never worked a day in his life? Well, he's below the poverty line. Free money for him!!
2014-04-02 02:58:53 PM
1 votes:

FitzShivering: I even had a letter from one of my parents explaining they weren't going to contribute anything and couldn't, but didn't matter to the aid folks.


Yeah, it can't. I get that it sucks, and that's the worst farking thing, but unless you're at Harvard funds are limited.

And a parent choosing not to pay for college vs a parent who has no money and CAN'T pay is not a hard choice.

Does it suck that the students are punished? Of course. But if you said "Well, if you're parents won't pay, just let us know" every single parent would say "Uhh..yeah. I'm not paying for that".

I've had PLENTY of people tell me "Well, I worked my own way through college, and I want my kid to do the same, so I'm not going to support them" and get annoyed when I say that the school won't support them either.
2014-04-02 02:54:26 PM
1 votes:
When I started at Rutgers in the early 80s, tuition was about $800 per semester ($1,600 per year), and I could take up to 21 credits.  Books for my first semester came to about $150, and I thought that was outrageously expensive.   At the time minimum wage was $3.35 per hour.  I worked over the summer and winter breaks.  So, 16 weeks, @40 hours per week, times $3.35 equals $2,140.00  Even after deductions it was enough to cover my entire tuition bill for the year.  I lived at home,  my parents helped me out with gas, insurance and book money.   My parents were not wealthy, so there were no spring break trips to Florida.

Today tuition at Rutgers is $13,500 and the current minimum wage in Jersey is $8.25 per hour.  Working the same hours as I did back then,  a kid could earn $5,280 before deductions.

/Fark your boot straps.
2014-04-02 02:54:13 PM
1 votes:

Dancin_In_Anson: The world needs ditch diggers too.


And full-time ditch-diggers deserve incomes that can put them well above squalid living conditions, feed them and possibly a kid as well (a spouse'd ideally be working too), pay utilities (which includes a cell phone bill and probably home internet as well) and have something left over at the end of the month for savings.

Being unable to support your college habit by working a (single) minimum wage job is a symptom of the same disease.
2014-04-02 02:51:19 PM
1 votes:

lilplatinum: FitzShivering: Also, for you bootstrappy people, you may be interested to note that if you work really hard and save your money to be able to afford things, your financial aid will be decreased by a certain factor of what you earned, insuring you end up with loans.

Must be nice to have it in the first place, my parents only support to me was pay for my health insurance for about 9 months when I couldn't.  Despite the fact that I was only my own and not a dependent on their taxes, their income still precluded me from financial aid.


I had to fight for it.  I was precluded from financial aid on the first go-round for that reason, despite the fact my parents were not contributing a penny towards my education.  To be fair to them, they didn't actually have any money, but it looked like it on paper due to a re-marriage.  I fought like a rattlesnake to get it re-done. Second go around I did end up as "just me" but my income was noticeably missing.  Third go around I watched the aid re-disappear as they included all I had worked.

I even had a letter from one of my parents explaining they weren't going to contribute anything and couldn't, but didn't matter to the aid folks.
2014-04-02 02:43:27 PM
1 votes:

Cyberluddite: As far as the student loan thing goes, I refuse to pay--or to have my kid pay--interest to those bloodsucking leeches (at least for undergrad)


Yeah, totally understand that. And it sounds like you aren't raising an entitled little snot, so it may not be a problem for you, but a LOT of students now have this "College Experience is a Right" mentality, and spend more time partying than studying, and no time at all earning a pay check.

/should be a good mix of all three.
2014-04-02 02:42:13 PM
1 votes:
Went to school on some very large scholarships, which unfortunately weren't allowed to cover things like meal plan (mandatory to have), or books.  I worked 40+ hours a week above minimum wage, and still had no money left over.  Is it possible to go to college on minimum wage?  Sure, if you don't mind going to the worst schools on Earth.  Is it possible to go to a good college on minimum wage?  No.  Of course not.

Also, for you bootstrappy people, you may be interested to note that if you work really hard and save your money to be able to afford things, your financial aid will be decreased by a certain factor of what you earned, insuring you end up with loans.  I ran into that when it came to parts of room and board (also mandatory, and scholarships not allowed to be used for it unless athletic), where I worked for 2 years, saved my money, and when filing the revised statement with my income/savings, seeing my aid reduced by 90% of my savings amount.  Quoth the advisor at college, "You're really better off not working before coming to college, if you need aid."  Well thanks for letting me know that ahead of time, farking assholes.

/it was expensive when I went, but even crazier now
//feels bad for you younger peeps
2014-04-02 02:34:05 PM
1 votes:

Ow! That was my feelings!: As someone in college 20 years ago. BULLSHIAT. You couldn't survive just on minimum wage back then either.


Agreed. I went into the Army for several years and when I got out was able to use the education "bonus" (which was higher for me than average because of my particular MOS) And STILL had to work multiple jobs (on and off campus) 20-30 hours/week. I also had a PELL grant (not much but it helped) and STILL had to take out a small student loan to help me get buy. Mind you that I didn't actually pinch pennies and deny myself some fun but, on the other hand, I didn't have that much extra to spend to begin with.

I can't imagine what it would be like today, carrying a student loan debt that will follow you around for ages.
2014-04-02 02:33:47 PM
1 votes:
I went here and it was free.

www.ctcoxfordshire.org.uk

But you know socialisms and whatnot.
2014-04-02 02:32:06 PM
1 votes:

SunsetLament: College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.


Or just under 20% of what a US congressman (who also works 2 days a week) makes.
2014-04-02 02:31:16 PM
1 votes:
College is a racket. It would be too expensive at a third of the price.
2014-04-02 02:30:52 PM
1 votes:

waterrockets: I didn't have too much trouble with my $20/hr software engineering internship in 1994. YMMV.


Which probably became an unpaid internship sometime in 2002.

I was happy to get a $9/hr job with the University's Tech Transfer Office my last year and a half. It was probably the best paying on campus job and the best 'internship'. I was suppose to be a simple file clerk but I got more responsibilities the moment that senior staff quit because they hated the new director.
2014-04-02 02:27:53 PM
1 votes:

Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.



This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.
2014-04-02 02:26:53 PM
1 votes:
So artificially increasing the demand for a product skyrockets the cost?  Odd.
2014-04-02 02:25:00 PM
1 votes:
The 'not so much' thing has really gotten stale. Please stop using it.

/I know, right?
2014-04-02 02:22:42 PM
1 votes:
As someone in college 20 years ago. BULLSHIAT. You couldn't survive just on minimum wage back then either.
2014-04-02 01:50:06 PM
1 votes:

Cyberluddite: phaseolus: Hell, that's exactly what I did for the first couple years. Lived at home, took the city bus to school, tuition was $400-600ish per semester and books for 5 or 6 classes cost a total of $150 which seemed really outrageous at the time. Working 20 hours a week in the UWM union snack bar paid for it all.

Then you weren't exactly supporting yourself on a minimum wage job, unless perhaps you were paying rent to your parents (at the full market rental value), not using any of the electricity/heat/etc. that they paid for, and not eating any of their food.



That's a valid point. If I'd gone to one of the other UW campuses I wouldn't have been able to pay for tuition and books and housing and food by working 20 hours a week for $3.75/hour. The fact that a school in my town offered programs I was interested in meant that I could live at home and keep expenses low, thus making college possible.


thamike: You're getting into it with somebody who, in all seriousness, claims his tuition was "$400-600-ish per semester" and whose books for 5 or 6 classes cost "a total of $150."
You might as well be arguing with a plantain.



What? That's actually what it cost me back then. Fall semester 1978 was $375, and it went up a bit every year. Note that I wasn't claiming that a kid could live at home, commute, and fund tuition & books at a state school by working food service jobs part time. I'm aware that stopped being possible not too long after I graduated.
2014-04-02 01:49:13 PM
1 votes:

Three Crooked Squirrels: Cyberluddite: I have a kid who's going to start college in 2 years. I'm really not liking these numbers at all.

I have an 8-month old.  Think of how scary this trend is to me!


Don't worry America will be in full oligarchy/kleptocracy  mode at that point, paying for college with the be the least of their problems.
2014-04-02 01:14:20 PM
1 votes:
Oh yeah and I too had help from my parents starting out the first two years.

It really is impossible to fund college on a minimum wage job, especially today, without help.
2014-04-02 01:01:00 PM
1 votes:

tallguywithglasseson: phaseolus: Hell, that's exactly what I did for the first couple years. Lived at home, took the city bus to school, tuition was $400-600ish per semester

In case you were curious, tuition is approx. $4,700 per semester at UWM now.


And the bus costs a handjob.
2014-04-02 12:39:03 PM
1 votes:
Hell, that's exactly what I did for the first couple years. Lived at home, took the city bus to school, tuition was $400-600ish per semester and books for 5 or 6 classes cost a total of $150 which seemed really outrageous at the time. Working 20 hours a week in the UWM union snack bar paid for it all.

When I got an engineering co-op job and a teaching assistant gig for the Materials Science 301 lab life was even better.
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2014-04-02 12:05:20 PM
1 votes:
...and that would be true even if minimum wage were $15 per hour. Doubling minimum wage would cut the job hours per credit hour ratio back to the 1993 level. That is when the article said working through school became impractical.
 
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