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(The Atlantic)   Twenty years ago, it was mathematically possible to work your way through college with a minimum-wage job. Now? Not so much   (theatlantic.com) divider line 300
    More: Obvious, minimum wages, credit hours, institution of higher education, limiting factor, Murray State, Michigan State University  
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5637 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Apr 2014 at 2:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-02 04:46:19 PM  

letrole: The interesting thing about college education is that by making it open to nearly anyone with the desire, it has become almost mandatory, yet also devalued.

The problem with the cost of college is that enormous amounts of funding are being offered to 19 year olds who are neither suited for higher education, nor responsible enough to understand what paying back a loan really means.

So everybody has to get a college degree just to meet the foot-in-the-door minimum, and all the buy-now-pay-later funding means that the cost has somehow risen to meet what the market will bear. If only certain social engineers, who decided that higher education was a universal right, hadn't had such a disdain of capitalism that they were wilfully ignorant of how it works.

But you knew all this, and the rest of the thread is just the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the damned. Excuse me for now, that young lady with a comp lit degree and a bone in her nose is bringing me my coffee. Ta.


LOL, was that a stab at me, or just random coincidence?  I have a septum piercing, but I don't wait tables and my degree is in composition and rhetoric, with post-graduate work on adult literacy instruction.  I love literature, but realized that most college students need to learn how to communicate competently to have any chance of success in our society.  And I paid for that degree by working 18 years in business, 10 of which were spent running a multi-million dollar company so the CEO didn't have to do anything beyond come up with new, financially impractical business concepts.  I teach my students critical thinking skills they need to be strong, hirable employees (that I wish I had been able to employ) so they don't have to work at minimum wage jobs, and these actually dovetail perfectly with the skills they will need if they decide to stay in more "academic" areas, which you seem to disdain.
 
2014-04-02 04:47:01 PM  

ikanreed: Does anyone else smell plutocracy?


somewhat relevant:
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/today-s-college-freshmen-have-f am ily-7831.aspx

though I don't think this necessarily points to a plutocracy.  College education is a factor in income.
http://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/family -i ncome-selected-characteristics-2011

people who go to college probably have a higher percentage of offspring also go to college...reasons  likely include financial but also social issues.
 
2014-04-02 04:47:52 PM  
25 yrs ago, my college cost about $5K/yr for tuition (24 credits), room AND board for both Winter and Fall semesters!

summer you go home and live with your parents.

I can't even imagine what those numbers would look like today. Probably closer to $25K.
 
2014-04-02 04:48:31 PM  

SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year.  Very principled.


Wow, you must be a real captain of industry if you think $100K is anything like CEO pay.  Just so you know, that's $100K per year, not per week.

I don't know where you live, but around here, a significant number of people who make $100K per year don't even have college degrees at all--they may not even have high school diplomas.
 
2014-04-02 04:55:18 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Headso: Dancin_In_Anson: Headso: heh, now you're concerned with how people might react to their coworkers being paid too well?

No so fast bucko. You seem to think that the feds are just going to say "$15.00/hour is the new minimum wage" and there will be no result other that rainbow farting unicorns and that there will be a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage.

No I think the economy will collapse like every other time we forced companies to pay more with a minimum wage hike.

Hmm, citation?


It was sarcasm
 
2014-04-02 04:57:35 PM  

hasty ambush: has nothing to do with Prop.13

"Proposition 13 did not cut growth in government dollars. Governments have more revenue in constant dollars today than they did prior to Proposition 13. That point includes the schools. Per-pupil spending is higher today than it was in 1978 in constant dollars. How the money is being spent is another question.

Property tax for local governments has been one of the most stable tax sources, growing steadily every year. The state doesn't seem to be too restricted by Proposition 13's mandate requiring a two-thirds vote to raise taxes, either. In the last four years, the state general fund has grown more than 30 percent, from about $75 billion to more than $100 billion."

Link


Dude, seriously, don't cite an op-ed piece as evidence of anything.  But even taking it at face value, the "per-pupil spending" you're talking about is for K-12 education, not college and university spending.  You know--or you should know, anyway, if you're going to open this can of worms--that K-12 spending is locked in as a set minimum percentage of the budget in California, due to a ballot initiative that passed in the late 1980s, and cannot be reduced under the law.  It's carved in stone.  That's not the case with spending on postsecondary (college) education, which is, after all, the only thing we're talking about here.
 
2014-04-02 04:58:03 PM  

Cyberluddite: thamike: You're getting into it with somebody who, in all seriousness, claims his tuition was "$400-600-ish per semester" and whose books for 5 or 6 classes cost "a total of $150."

If he's as anywhere nearly as old as I am, I most certainly believe him.  Because I paid even less.

Of course, I am old as the hills, and I graduated from college close to 30 years ago.  My tuition, at a state university (the University of Nevada), was $17/credit when I started.  For 15 credits, that would be $255/semester.  And yeah, $150 for the books sounds about what I paid (as long as I bought used ones when available).  30 years later, I see now on the university's website that resident undergrad tuition is up to $203 per credit.  That's 1200% of what I had to pay 30 years ago.

My wife graduated from college about the same time, from the University of California (Berkeley).  When my wife started at Berkeley, she paid "fees" (U.C. refused to call it "tuition" until about 2 or 3 years ago--they always said they had no tuition, only certain "fees") of $3100 as a non-resident of California, and then the next three years as a California resident, she paid fees of all of about $750 for the year ($375 per semester)--to attend one of the finest public universities in the country.  This year, 30 years later, nonresidents at U.C. pay $35,800 (1150% of what my wife paid as a nonresident) while resident tuition is now $12,900 (1500% of what she paid as a resident).

I have a kid who's going to start college in 2 years.  I'm really not liking these numbers at all.  Especially since she's more interested in certain private schools, whose tuition rates make even those sound dirt cheap by comparison.


You did that at  UNR?! Holy farking shiat I'm getting ripped off.

/Hoping to head there in the fall
//Not sure I'll be able to afford it
 
2014-04-02 05:00:12 PM  

letrole: But you knew all this, and the rest of the thread is just the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the damned. Excuse me for now, that young lady with a comp lit degree and a bone in her nose is bringing me my coffee. Ta.

The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: LOL, was that a stab at me, or just random coincidence?  I have a septum piercing, but I don't wait tables and my degree is in composition and rhetoric, with post-graduate work on adult literacy instruction.

Think nothing of it. I don't really see the connection.

If it was a stab at you, I would have probably made it actually relevant to the fact that you don't wait tables, but you do indeed have experience with teaching adults how to read.

 
2014-04-02 05:00:30 PM  

Strolpol: endless price increase that can't last much longer


Buh?
 
2014-04-02 05:03:49 PM  

letrole: letrole: But you knew all this, and the rest of the thread is just the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the damned. Excuse me for now, that young lady with a comp lit degree and a bone in her nose is bringing me my coffee. Ta.

The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: LOL, was that a stab at me, or just random coincidence?  I have a septum piercing, but I don't wait tables and my degree is in composition and rhetoric, with post-graduate work on adult literacy instruction.Think nothing of it. I don't really see the connection.If it was a stab at you, I would have probably made it actually relevant to the fact that you don't wait tables, but you do indeed have experience with teaching adults how to read.


Funny coincidence then.  And I REALLY should have noted your name.
 
2014-04-02 05:07:17 PM  

redmid17: Summer Glau's Love Slave: Working my way through engineering school. It's easy once you give up sleep and any hint of a social life.

/Lost my left leg below the knee last year.
//Got a ton of scholarships out of that.
///Almost worth losing a leg said no one ever.

It's good to see you at least have a foot in the door. That's hard enough for any young person these days.


I see what you did there.... Idk if I like it but I see what you did.
 
2014-04-02 05:09:52 PM  

Three Crooked Squirrels: "President Obama once said he wants everybody in America to go to college. What a snob."

 -- Rand Paul


President Obama once said " .. if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor." "If you like your insurance you can keep your insurance." "Your will save $2500 a year." "Unemployment is only 6%." "I am a US Citizen."
 
2014-04-02 05:11:15 PM  
If the bubble doesn't burst before my kids get old enough for college, we'll have to think of an alternative to a traditional 4-year school.  We are saving for them, but we have one income right now and on top of our bills and debt, we are trying to save for retirement, too.  I don't want them to start out their lives in a lot of debt they can never get rid of.  I worked two jobs, got a couple of scholarships, lived in a hellhole and went to the 'cheaper' public school for 5 years (I studied abroad in Japan for my major and their semester doesn't start until April, so it moved me off from graduating sooner), and I still graduated with $30k of debt...and this was 10 years ago.  Before we had kids, I devoted myself to paying off all of the high interest loans that I had taken out, so now I just have a low-interest loan of $12k left at 2.2% interest.  But my parents weren't able to help me at all.  We will be able to help our kids, but not to the tune of $100k+.  But I just don't see how college can continue to operate at its current inflation...people of my generation will discourage their children from taking out thousands of dollars in loans and try to find alternatives, so I think it will burst.  If nothing else, it's detrimental to our economy with so many people in debt and unable to make or spend money.
 
2014-04-02 05:11:24 PM  

Rev.K: Now, what does my semi-bootstrappy story have to do with this? I lived a very lean and unglamorous college existence and paid a very cheap rate for my education, AND I STILL NEEDED HELP FROM MY PARENTS.


Indeed.  I had multiple sources of need-based aid (no federal grants, thank you Uncle Racist for deciding you had to be a felon to get a Pell if you were white and especially if you were a white male, no matter how piss-poor your family was), and a 50% ride scholarship on top of that (though that gets less effective as tuition goes up, of course).  I lived at home and went to a tiny, cheap school.

Tuition at a state school was cheaper, but room and board more than ate up the difference, in some cases more than twice the difference per semester, and none were within driving distance.  I drove a 10-year-old hand-me-down econo-box that got something like 27 mpg city / 30+ highway.

What savings we had was converted to cash and hidden years before applying for aid, or I'd have gotten none of it except the scholarship.  No, I'm not ashamed; we had ZERO discretionary income.  The savings was an inheritance, worth less than 1 year in tuition alone, much less other expenses.  With that PLUS the aid PLUS living at home PLUS working up to 35 hours a week, 60 in the summers (not work study, a "real" job, two in the summers, and not minimum wage, either), I still had $18k in loans that nearly bankrupted me within a year of them coming due.  If we hadn't hidden that cash, I literally would have run out at the end of sophomore year, with absolutely no recourse other than drug dealing, grand theft, the lottery or marrying rich to continue going to school.

To survive that first year, I literally went without electricity in the summer (no AC + cold showers = not as bad as you'd think), gave up even my POS car for not affording gas, and ate dry cereal and (not dry) ramen until my gums bled.  And I was employed in my field, since before graduation!

How anyone outside the 1%-ers does it outside of a community college these days I have no idea; it was hard enough "back in my day", i.e. the 90s...  Those state grants I depended on are just a fond memory these days.  No wonder I never even considered grad school.
 
2014-04-02 05:11:25 PM  

Cyberluddite: I'm pretty sure that no place is more symptomatic of that than California, especially after Prop 13 passed in 1979.


Ah.  Another person who blames everything on prop 13.  I guess you haven't figured out that California has some of the highest overall taxes in the entire country, despite the caps on property taxes.  Also, property taxes were primarily a LOCAL (county) revenue source while our state universities are funded through the state budget.
 
2014-04-02 05:11:32 PM  

The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: Funny coincidence then.  And I REALLY should have noted your name.


No dear, you should have noted the content of the post, and how it bears no real relation to you or your situation, certainly not to the degree that it would qualify as a "stab", and as an aside, perhaps you should see someone who's familiar with narcissism or paranoia.


/now that's a knoife

 
2014-04-02 05:18:04 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: AngryDragon: Headso: AngryDragon: SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year. Very principled.

This irritates me as well.

yeah, liberals defending middle class incomes makes me want to smash something.

Thanks for taking that out of context by the way, douchebag.  here's the rest again:

It's bullshiat that businesses are now asking for a bachelors or masters degree for entry level positions.  That is true.

Businesses aren't setting tuition rates though.

No it isn't. I work for an engineering firm. Bachelors or GTFO. I want some schmo that can't even prove he can pay attention in school to design substations?

hmmm...


Don't want to disappoint your snark, but entry level engineers do the heavy lifting with calculations and whatnot.  We send them to site to make sure things are right, they red-line drawings, they check numbers and calculations and generally learn how to be engineers.  I call that "design substations".  Why would a 10yr guy want to crunch basic numbers?  What do you think an entry level guy does, make coffee and facebook all day?  Either you hit the ground running or your ass is fired at my company, as it should be.  Now I've been around a while so I can waste time on Fark with the best of 'em, but I put in my dues to be here.
 
2014-04-02 05:18:07 PM  

lostcat: I took courses during the summer trimesters.


None of the physics courses, and many of the math courses, I needed for my degree were offered in the summer.  In fact, they were offered exactly ONCE per academic year.  If you didn't take the course when it was offered, you delayed graduation by a full year.

It made finding outside employment tough.  After all, when you have classes five days a week and at random times (e.g., not just mornings or afternoons), your schedule is just too crazy to be attractive to employers.

/worked full-time during my first degree (liberal arts degree, attended mid-1990's)
//worked minimally during the second degree (physics and math, attended early 2000's)
///tuition went up A LOT during that small interval of time
 
2014-04-02 05:18:42 PM  

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: AngryDragon: Headso: AngryDragon: SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year. Very principled.

This irritates me as well.

yeah, liberals defending middle class incomes makes me want to smash something.

Thanks for taking that out of context by the way, douchebag.  here's the rest again:

It's bullshiat that businesses are now asking for a bachelors or masters degree for entry level positions.  That is true.

Businesses aren't setting tuition rates though.

No it isn't. I work for an engineering firm. Bachelors or GTFO. I want some schmo that can't even prove he can pay attention in school to design substations?


Actual engineering, or IT engineering?

IT engineering is the better of the two.  No degree required.
 
2014-04-02 05:25:01 PM  

SunsetLament: College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.



Know how I know you don't know any professors?

/married to a professor
//has a gazillion friends who are professors
/// professor: the job that lets you choose which 60 hours/week you work.
 
2014-04-02 05:26:17 PM  

SunsetLament: You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.


Why don't you go back and read the posts about states cutting university budgets, then you can return to the adult table.
 
2014-04-02 05:28:05 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: you seem to be under the impression that equal opportunities exist in all parts of the USA. you are simply wrong. A perfect example would be in Florida (a right to work state - which means they can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason at all)... here, in Florida, if you don't have at least an Associates in something, science, arts, whatever... not even pertinent to what you are applying for, then the only job you will get is in a fast food joint, and here, they all start at minimum wage, or a waiter/waitress which is BELOW minimum wage... they even want bartenders to have a degree down here.... WTF kind of logic is that?


Okay I should have prefaced my argument by saying in 'sane places', not even Texas  where I went to school is as farking insane as Florida.

(waiter/waitresses can only be below minimum wage if your tips make up the difference plus some, if the tips don't make it minimum wage then the restaurant has to cover.  You have to be a pretty farking shiatty waiter to not get enough tips to make minimum wage - overall you could be stuck on a shift when no one comes in - probably working at Dennys, where wait staff goes to die)
 
2014-04-02 05:39:38 PM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: As someone in college 20 years ago. BULLSHIAT. You couldn't survive just on minimum wage back then either.


You could if you were in a cheap cost of living place, like most of the southern states (Except urban parts like Atlanta), and going to a state school on in-state tuition.  But you sure weren't going to a private school.  Now, you can't even do that at a state school.
 
2014-04-02 05:39:45 PM  

PsiChick: You did that at UNR?! Holy farking shiat I'm getting ripped off.

/Hoping to head there in the fall
//Not sure I'll be able to afford it


Well, it helps to be as old as dirt and to have gone there in the days when dinosaurs ruled the earth, but yeah, it was farking cheap.  Not only that, but I got some scholarship money, so it was essentially free.

It's not a bad school at all, and it's still surprisingly affordable.  $200 a credit isn't bad--that's only about $7000 a year in tuition for a full load of classes.  And Reno is a pretty affordable place to live as a student--reasonably-priced housing, cheap food, and cheap (or free) booze at nearby casinos.  Also a very pretty and pleasant campus, and a respected and talented faculty.  If you go there, you will enjoy it.
 
2014-04-02 05:42:13 PM  

Cyberluddite: PsiChick: You did that at UNR?! Holy farking shiat I'm getting ripped off.

/Hoping to head there in the fall
//Not sure I'll be able to afford it

Well, it helps to be as old as dirt and to have gone there in the days when dinosaurs ruled the earth, but yeah, it was farking cheap.  Not only that, but I got some scholarship money, so it was essentially free.

It's not a bad school at all, and it's still surprisingly affordable.  $200 a credit isn't bad--that's only about $7000 a year in tuition for a full load of classes.  And Reno is a pretty affordable place to live as a student--reasonably-priced housing, cheap food, and cheap (or free) booze at nearby casinos.  Also a very pretty and pleasant campus, and a respected and talented faculty.  If you go there, you will enjoy it.


I live an hour away. That's the major problem. Hopefully I'll get enough scholarships to pull it off...
 
2014-04-02 05:42:14 PM  

ManRay: Smackledorfer: If you believe that an educated populace doesn't have an ROI above and beyond raw production that is directly related to the areas of study, then you are an idiot.

I do realize that. But we do not have unlimited cash on hand for this sort of thing so I would rather send a guy to trade school to learn HVAC than spend 4 times as much for someone to study English Lit and not be able to get a job when they graduate.


I disagree.

It would require a heavy hand over universities, but we can afford it.

No more subsidizing sports.
No more heavy shifting of arts money to science departments. Paying a lawyer to tell thirty people about law in a classroom with chairs and tables should be cheap. When we criticize art majors for too low a return on the investment we can only do that by ignoring the way the subsidize the "real majors" like hard sciences that need labs and materials. They subsidize research projects and meaningful studies.

So yea, we can get everyone an education, or we avoid doing that and pull back serious funding to a variety of things whose roi's nobody questions.

Or, and I am no bursar, the money is going down other rabbit holes and never coming back. That should be adressed as well.

In no way is 'down with arts majors, down with literature, etc' going to help anything.
 
2014-04-02 05:46:49 PM  

Headso: It would be an awful hardship, you'd suddenly have a bunch of consumers with additional spending power.


Assuming their employers could (or would want to) absorb the cost.

lilplatinum: Well my small busniess pays all of my employees over double the minimum wage already, so it's not an issue


Great! Now when the entry level guy comes in at the same rate of pay that they are making after however many years of service what do you think the reaction will be?
(Hint...there's a reason why the AFL-CIO is in favor of hiking the minimum wage for people that by and large aren't AFL-CIO members)

lilplatinum: I don't think it should be doubled overnight (or necessarily doubled), but significant raising of the minimum wage (you can even staggar it through phases over the next several years)


Why not?
 
2014-04-02 05:55:39 PM  

OgreMagi: Cyberluddite: I'm pretty sure that no place is more symptomatic of that than California, especially after Prop 13 passed in 1979.

Ah.  Another person who blames everything on prop 13.  I guess you haven't figured out that California has some of the highest overall taxes in the entire country, despite the caps on property taxes.  Also, property taxes were primarily a LOCAL (county) revenue source while our state universities are funded through the state budget.


California's biggest problem, tax-wise, is that it limited its most steady, predictable source of revenue (property taxes) and now is forced to rely almost exclusively on unpredictable, uneven sources that are directly affected by the state of the economy (income tax and sales tax).  So it creates boom-and-bust cycles that fark up the budget on both ends of the spectrum, given that the idiots in the Legislature overspend in the boom years and in the bust years it creates a vortex of debt and decreased government services/spending that further flushes the state's economy down the shiatter.  That ain't no way to run a state.

But hey, Prop 13 is great for me personally, because I'm old and I bought my house 16 years ago at the bottom of the market, and my taxes will never increase to market levels.  All the new buyers get to subsidize me--suck on that, kids!  My property taxes are less than $2000 a year, but my next door neighbor, whose house is smaller than mine and worth less, pays around $5000 a year because she bought her house only a few years ago.  Prop 13 was pitched as a way to keep grandma and grandpa in their houses in their golden years, but in this case my neighbor is a single, widowed, retired senior citizen with recent health problems, who pays more than twice as much in taxes as her working, middle-aged neighbor who has a bigger, more valuable house (i.e., me).  Sucks to be her, but hey, great for me!

Of course, my wife and I have considered buying another house, and one of the things that keeps us from doing that is the fact that we would at least triple our property taxes if we bought a new house, even if it was a similar value to our present house.  So in that respect, Prop 13 creates a disincentive to move up in real estate and is a drag on the real estate sales market.
 
2014-04-02 05:57:47 PM  

stappawho: Right.  Most college diets consist of macaroni and cheese, top ramen and pasta-roni.

\shudders


I estimate that 98% of what I consumed while on campus was beer, ramen and pizza.
 
2014-04-02 06:01:30 PM  

PsiChick: I live an hour away. That's the major problem. Hopefully I'll get enough scholarships to pull it off...


What area do you live in?

HindiDiscoMonster: it's funny what we call affordable or not bad today... I remember paying $0.83/gallon for gas...


Yeah, we biatch and moan about gas prices, but it really hasn't gone up all that much over the years compared to many other things, especially college tuition.  As I mentioned above, the price of tuition and my university is about 12X as much as it was when I graduated, but the price of gas is, I dunno, maybe 5 or 6 times as much as what I was paying for gas back then.
 
2014-04-02 06:03:41 PM  
CTRL-F "Stripper" - Zero hits.  Fark, I am disappoint.
 
2014-04-02 06:09:21 PM  

what_now: lilplatinum: Similarly, a legal adult can prove they are not getting income from their parents, they should qualify just like anyone else who has a similar lack of income.

You've just graduated from HS, where presumably, you lived with your parents. Now you're going to college. How would you propose that we "prove" that the parents won't support the student any longer?

lilplatinum: In reality it should be like Europe where university is free and for those who actually should go to university, and we should have trade schools for many, many more subjects so they just aren't for retards who can't read.

I agree completely with that. But that's not where we are, so arguing that we shouldn't consider parent income is a non starter.



I never got a penny from my parents when I was in school, but I was able to prove I was financially independent of them.  I had to show the financial aid office my apartment lease (Hey, look! No co-signers!), banking statements, utility statements, etc., as well as pay stubs and tax forms.  In effect, I had to prove that my income equaled my expenses exactly, and that there was no hidden sources of income (since I was truly self-sufficient, this was easy to do).   Fortunately, I was great at record keeping, so I had every document at my disposal with the financial aid office asked for them.
 
2014-04-02 06:13:22 PM  
SunsetLament:
This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.

I wish Fark had a retard button in addition to the Smart and Funny buttons.
 
2014-04-02 06:16:49 PM  

Cyberluddite: PsiChick: I live an hour away. That's the major problem. Hopefully I'll get enough scholarships to pull it off...


What area do you live in?


'An hour away from Reno' is the most specific I'm getting online, sorry.
 
2014-04-02 06:18:15 PM  

Cyberluddite: SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year.  Very principled.

Wow, you must be a real captain of industry if you think $100K is anything like CEO pay.  Just so you know, that's $100K per year, not per week.

I don't know where you live, but around here, a significant number of people who make $100K per year don't even have college degrees at all--they may not even have high school diplomas.


You realize the thread is about the minimum wage right?  It's in the thread title.
 
2014-04-02 06:18:58 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Headso: It would be an awful hardship, you'd suddenly have a bunch of consumers with additional spending power.

Assuming their employers could (or would want to) absorb the cost.


They aren't just going to say "well, I guess we're going to close up shop" if the minimum wage goes up.   If the company can't afford to pay more than 7.25 an hour to their employees, then they probably shouldn't exist anyway - because the rest of us end up likely having to subsidize them anyway since nobody can actually live on those wages.

Great! Now when the entry level guy comes in at the same rate of pay that they are making after however many years of service what do you think the reaction will be?


Obviously I would likely bump their pay a bit too.  Not double of course, but things would even out - lord knows when I lived in Germany they seemed to make do paying living wages (and giving 24 statutory minimum vacation days, health benefits for everyone etc).

Why not?


Why not overnight?  Because things that change overnight tend to work out less poorly than things that are allowed to phase in.
 
2014-04-02 06:19:39 PM  

FizixJunkee: /// professor: the job that lets you choose which 60 hours/week you work.


*image link laughing gif*
 
2014-04-02 06:22:02 PM  

SunsetLament: Cyberluddite: SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year.  Very principled.

Wow, you must be a real captain of industry if you think $100K is anything like CEO pay.  Just so you know, that's $100K per year, not per week.

I don't know where you live, but around here, a significant number of people who make $100K per year don't even have college degrees at all--they may not even have high school diplomas.


You realize the thread is about the minimum wage right?  It's in the thread title


You were the one that brought up 100K a year and then intimated that that was somehow some exorbitant salary.
 
2014-04-02 06:36:32 PM  

SunsetLament: Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.


This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.


As the spouse off a hard working professor I would disagree. My husband is salaried and puts in at least 60 hours a week making his hourly pay less than $20/hour. The tuition money is NOT going to the teaching faculty. Blame the high dollar sports programs not the teachers who bust their asses and actually give a fark about the students
 
2014-04-02 06:39:07 PM  

GrammaSwmbo: SunsetLament: Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.


This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.

As the spouse off a hard working professor I would disagree. My husband is salaried and puts in at least 60 hours a week making his hourly pay less than $20/hour. The tuition money is NOT going to the teaching faculty. Blame the high dollar sports programs not the teachers who bust their asses and actually give a fark about the students


Non-tenured faculty don't earn much.  I don't know how old your husband is, but if he's over 40, and still doesn't have tenure, he probably never will.  He may want to look into doing something else.
 
2014-04-02 06:39:58 PM  

GrammaSwmbo: Blame the high dollar sports programs not the teachers who bust their asses and actually give a fark about the students


Why would you blame them, when you factor in increased alumni donations the majority of high dollar sports programs are a net benefit to the school.
 
2014-04-02 06:45:23 PM  

lilplatinum: If the company can't afford to pay more than 7.25 an hour to their employees, then they probably shouldn't exist anyway


LOL whut?

lilplatinum: Obviously I would likely bump their pay a bit too. Not double of course, but things would even out


Yeah...the new guy just got his salary doubled...so "of course" I'll be happy with .10/ hour.  You betcha.

lilplatinum: Why not overnight? Because things that change overnight tend to work out less poorly than things that are allowed to phase in


But the wage doubled in 1950 to no detriment! You said so yourself!
 
2014-04-02 06:47:54 PM  

lilplatinum: GrammaSwmbo: Blame the high dollar sports programs not the teachers who bust their asses and actually give a fark about the students

Why would you blame them, when you factor in increased alumni donations the majority of high dollar sports programs are a net benefit to the school.


That is assuming facts not in evidence, namely that no donors would donate without the existence of sports programs. At best they are a race to the bottom in this regard.
 
2014-04-02 06:49:50 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: lilplatinum: If the company can't afford to pay more than 7.25 an hour to their employees, then they probably shouldn't exist anyway

LOL whut?


Funny that you conveniently cut off the word because and the subsequent statement after anyway before feigning surprise.

Yeah...the new guy just got his salary doubled...so "of course" I'll be happy with .10/ hour.  You betcha.


Yes, because that is what I said I would do, double one guys salary and raise the other one only .10 cents.


But the wage doubled in 1950 to no detriment! You said so yourself!


Yes, proving it can be done without all these catastrophic affects you seem to assert will happen, like everyone quitting their job because a new guy is making more or all these businesses going out of shop.

It doesn't mean I think the best way to implement this thing would be "overnight", rather than phasing it in over a relatively small number of years (3 or so).  It just means that even if you did it overnight society would adjust and the world would not be ashes the next day.

Anyway, going to assume you don't have any actual arguments since you didn't manage to come up with any, so enjoy your day.
 
2014-04-02 06:52:00 PM  

SunsetLament: FizixJunkee: /// professor: the job that lets you choose which 60 hours/week you work.

*image link laughing gif*



You really are a retard, aren't you?

My husband is a professor.  I have dozens of close friends---like, people I can call up on the phone right now and chat with...not distant Facebook acquaintances---who are professors at various stages of their careers.  The people getting tenure-track positions today ARE THE BEST AT WHAT THEY DO.  They are experts in their fields.  They have spent 6-10+ years getting their PhDs, plus 3-10 years doing post docs.  They bring in MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for their universities via external funding.

My husband brings in more money to his university than he receives from them; his salary is essentially FREE to his school.  His salary is NOT coming from student tuition dollars.

They are the experts in their fields.  They work all the farking time.  Their grants provide millions of dollars to the university coffers.

And you begrudge them their middle class salaries?!!?  Are you farking serious?

Very few profs, especially the younger ones starting out, earn anything near $100,000/year.   Those making that much are very, very lucky and are at the most elite institutions.   I know far more profs making ~$60,000/year than $100,000+.    And these are professors in STEM fields, not arts and humanities.

In most any other field, a world-class expert would not be looked down upon for making $100,000/year.  Yet, for some reason, you expect university professors not to earn that much?

Go fark yourself, and your Mitt Romney blow-up doll, too.
 
2014-04-02 06:52:29 PM  

Smackledorfer: That is assuming facts not in evidence, namely that no donors would donate without the existence of sports programs. At best they are a race to the bottom in this regard.


We aren't in a courtroom, and anyone with any passing familiarity with how big school sports work would never deny that success on the field brings in the big bucks.

Of course, it could just be a magical coincidence that A&M got 100 million more than ever before in donations the two years their shiathead quarterback blew up.
 
2014-04-02 06:54:01 PM  

Smackledorfer: That is assuming facts not in evidence, namely that no donors would donate without the existence of sports programs. At best they are a race to the bottom in this regard


Here you go:

"Nearly every university loses money on sports. Even after private donations and ticket sales, they fill the gap by tapping students paying tuition or state taxpayers."

linky linky
 
2014-04-02 07:00:30 PM  

FizixJunkee: Smackledorfer: That is assuming facts not in evidence, namely that no donors would donate without the existence of sports programs. At best they are a race to the bottom in this regard

Here you go:

"Nearly every university loses money on sports. Even after private donations and ticket sales, they fill the gap by tapping students paying tuition or state taxpayers."

linky linky


The underlying study, when googled, does not take into account alumni donations.  Plus a lot of the losing schools are not high money teams, but schools trying to catch up with the joneses.  The big boys are going to make money with it (and should have their own league).
 
2014-04-02 07:02:33 PM  

Strolpol: SunsetLament: Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.


This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.

Uh, no. Professors are nowhere NEAR that much of what a college's money goes to. Hell, colleges are doing everything they can to kill tenure and simply turn academia into a tiered system of administrators that rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars and converting their faculties into nothing but adjuncts and assistant professors working on-contract for a few thousand dollars a semester.

/adjunct history instructor
//you want to find the waste in college education, it's all going into administration
///no college president has ever justified more than 100K/year


Amen brother. Administration exists solely to justify its own existence
 
2014-04-02 07:21:44 PM  

lilplatinum: FizixJunkee: Smackledorfer: That is assuming facts not in evidence, namely that no donors would donate without the existence of sports programs. At best they are a race to the bottom in this regard

Here you go:

"Nearly every university loses money on sports. Even after private donations and ticket sales, they fill the gap by tapping students paying tuition or state taxpayers."

linky linky

The underlying study, when googled, does not take into account alumni donations.  Plus a lot of the losing schools are not high money teams, but schools trying to catch up with the joneses.  The big boys are going to make money with it (and should have their own league).


And again wrt alumni donations, we have no way of knowing if people would still donate if the sports dept were either self-sufficient or even non-existent.

So like I said, you assume things we don't know. But feel free to prove us wrong and find that info.
 
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