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(The Atlantic)   Twenty years ago, it was mathematically possible to work your way through college with a minimum-wage job. Now? Not so much   (theatlantic.com) divider line 300
    More: Obvious, minimum wages, credit hours, institution of higher education, limiting factor, Murray State, Michigan State University  
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5604 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Apr 2014 at 2:16 PM (29 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-04-02 03:41:23 PM  

AngryDragon: The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: Obviously there are outliers, but people teaching college who are starting their careers now are definitely not people to be jealous of or angry with

Fair enough.  So exactly where the hell is all that money going?



www.biogeocreations.com

Looks like a lot of it goes to the athletic department.
 
2014-04-02 03:42:06 PM  

lilplatinum: redmid17: If you think you are in the grey area between gen x and gen y, it's about 99% certain that you are gen y.

It's a grey area because it's defined differently.  I'm 81, so I still remember the 80s well and grew up with GI Joe and Mask and Transformers and all that shiat (especially as my brother was 4 years older and firmly generation x).   I also remember a pre-internet time (I was a little nerd and ran a BBS in middle school).   But on the other hand I did have a computer my whole life, not sure where that places me.


You're 5 years older than me and 3 older than my sister. We were pretty much in the same situation except we saw the reruns. I remember my dad showing me how to load Prince of Persia from DOS, and then showing me the "World Wide Web" a few years later (94?).
 
2014-04-02 03:42:55 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Headso: No I think the economy will collapse like every other time we forced companies to pay more with a minimum wage hike.

When was the last time the wage more than doubled in one fell swoop?


1950 it went from 40 cents an hour to 75 cents an hour in one fell swoop, thats pretty close.

You don't remember it because society literally collapsed at the time (especially the small midwestern Texas shiatholes) and all records have been lost to history.
 
2014-04-02 03:44:11 PM  

redmid17: You're 5 years older than me and 3 older than my sister. We were pretty much in the same situation except we saw the reruns. I remember my dad showing me how to load Prince of Persia from DOS, and then showing me the "World Wide Web" a few years later (94?).


I played Sierra adventure games on my hercules monochrome monitor.. Nothing makes it easier to pick things out in a game than staring at black and yellowish-orange ;)
 
2014-04-02 03:45:06 PM  

AngryDragon: Headso: AngryDragon: SunsetLament: I love how all the liberals who hate Big Business ran at light speed (seriously, all I saw was a lightning bolt, kinda like the Flash) to defend college professors making 100k a year. Very principled.

This irritates me as well.

yeah, liberals defending middle class incomes makes me want to smash something.

Thanks for taking that out of context by the way, douchebag.  here's the rest again:

It's bullshiat that businesses are now asking for a bachelors or masters degree for entry level positions.  That is true.

Businesses aren't setting tuition rates though.


No it isn't. I work for an engineering firm. Bachelors or GTFO. I want some schmo that can't even prove he can pay attention in school to design substations?
 
2014-04-02 03:46:05 PM  

lilplatinum: Dancin_In_Anson: Headso: No I think the economy will collapse like every other time we forced companies to pay more with a minimum wage hike.

When was the last time the wage more than doubled in one fell swoop?

1950 it went from 40 cents an hour to 75 cents an hour in one fell swoop, thats pretty close.

You don't remember it because society literally collapsed at the time (especially the small midwestern Texas shiatholes) and all records have been lost to history.


An event forever immortalised by Cormac McCarthy in The Road.
 
2014-04-02 03:46:26 PM  

lilplatinum: If you are working for minimum wage in college you are doing it wrong.  Be a competent waiter or bartender or get an office job or sell some farking weed... If all you can find is flipping burgers, maybe you shouldn't be in college in the first place.


Basic math on how many of those jobs exist suggests your advice is retarded. As the economy worsens, the situation for even the average waiter goes down: your boss is less interested in someone who has to change up their schedule for college junk all the time, and more likely to over hire staff so he can keep them all hungry for more shifts.
 
2014-04-02 03:46:47 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Dr Dreidel: Hard to get more "Federal" than DC, bub.

// though I'm not sure what your point is

In smaller communities...let's use for example a small town in Midwest Texas that has a population of about 2400...how many employers do you assume there are that will be able to absorb this kind of increase in labor cost?


Ah. Then we agree:

Dr Dreidel: The end result might (probably should) have to have some multiplier for cost of living (it's cheaper to live almost anywhere other than DC/SF).


And that "increase in labor cost" would be offset by the new found wealth of the area - they have more to spend, which means inventories of food (to use one example) go quicker now, especially toward the end of the month, since people have more to spend on the necessities many were doing without (food, clothes/shoes, dental care*, maybe finally joining the 1990s and getting a cell phone). So Months 1 and 2 might be leaner than normal, but Months 3 and 4 and beyond would be far lardier.

To say nothing of how often you'd need to rejigger the multiplier as the costs of living bounced around, and how finely you break apart "wage districts", but those are problems to be ironed out through rigorous observation and study, not waved away by a political philosophy.

* I recall some study a few years back that said dental problems were a decent indicator of class, and that good teeth were worth some insane amount of "wealth" ($10k/year in salary, or $100k in lifetime earnings, something like that; though I forget the actual numbers/measures).
 
2014-04-02 03:47:37 PM  

AirForceVet: I couldn't work my way through college on minimum wage jobs in the 70s without taking out student loans.

For some strange calculations, because I was supporting myself on those same minimum wage jobs, I therefore was ineligible for grants or financial assistance though, i.e. free money for college.

/I still don't understand the logic.


It's just government logic.

 What you do is apply for the grants first (while you're broke and unemployed). When those grants aren't enough to cover your tuition, you grab a job for whatever you need.

For grants you need to reapply for: if they're going off your tax returns, you won't be eligible next year, but if it's just monthly income you can "quit" your job before the application for the next year is due.

/sometimes it makes more sense to follow the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter.
 
2014-04-02 03:50:48 PM  
Working my way through engineering school. It's easy once you give up sleep and any hint of a social life.

/Lost my left leg below the knee last year.
//Got a ton of scholarships out of that.
///Almost worth losing a leg said no one ever.
 
2014-04-02 03:52:42 PM  
At one point I had three jobs and still needed help from my parents to stay in school full time. (1994)
 
2014-04-02 03:53:10 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Headso: No I think the economy will collapse like every other time we forced companies to pay more with a minimum wage hike.

When was the last time the wage more than doubled in one fell swoop?


I could understand having to raise it over the course of several years. The economy has done just fine under other raises in the minimum wage  and if it looks like it is going poorly each incremental raise could be postponed.  But come on, our economy relies on consumer spending so I think the whining from the oligarchs and their water carriers is something that can be ignored.
 
2014-04-02 03:53:26 PM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: Working my way through engineering school. It's easy once you give up sleep and any hint of a social life.

/Lost my left leg below the knee last year.
//Got a ton of scholarships out of that.
///Almost worth losing a leg said no one ever.


It's good to see you at least have a foot in the door. That's hard enough for any young person these days.
 
2014-04-02 03:54:18 PM  

give me doughnuts: AngryDragon: The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: Obviously there are outliers, but people teaching college who are starting their careers now are definitely not people to be jealous of or angry with

Fair enough.  So exactly where the hell is all that money going?


[www.biogeocreations.com image 850x478]

Looks like a lot of it goes to the athletic department.


Which is essentially advertising.
 
2014-04-02 03:54:25 PM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: Working my way through engineering school. It's easy once you give up sleep and any hint of a social life.

/Lost my left leg below the knee last year.
//Got a ton of scholarships out of that.
///Almost worth losing a leg said no one ever.


Well, you always have the amputee porn career to fall back on.
 
2014-04-02 03:54:28 PM  

Smackledorfer: Basic math on how many of those jobs exist suggests your advice is retarded. As the economy worsens, the situation for even the average waiter goes down: your boss is less interested in someone who has to change up their schedule for college junk all the time, and more likely to over hire staff so he can keep them all hungry for more shifts.


There are still non-minimum wage jobs available for people who aren't mouth breathers, even if they aren't super hot shiat.  Jesus christ, I made a couple bucks over minimum wage when I was 16 working at goddamn smoothie king.   If you can shower and form sentences you can manage over minimum wage jobs (and I still know lots of waiters who pull much more than minimum wage to this day).  

What basic math shows your claim?   Jesus, if the Republitards are to be believed corporations want to minimize the amount of health benefits they have to pay out, which makes relatively low paying part time college labor that you don't have to insure look more appealing.

If you are making minimum wage and not a cent over as this argument in TFA assumes, then you are either a retard or you don't give a shiat.  And I say this even as someone who supports a living wage.
 
2014-04-02 03:55:06 PM  

Smackledorfer: lilplatinum: If you are working for minimum wage in college you are doing it wrong.  Be a competent waiter or bartender or get an office job or sell some farking weed... If all you can find is flipping burgers, maybe you shouldn't be in college in the first place.

Basic math on how many of those jobs exist suggests your advice is retarded. As the economy worsens, the situation for even the average waiter goes down: your boss is less interested in someone who has to change up their schedule for college junk all the time, and more likely to over hire staff so he can keep them all hungry for more shifts.


To add to this, as I was also born in 81 I worked my way through college (along with using my high school savings as down payment on a condo and renting rooms - I made a profit on my living conditions while at school, which helped immensely) as a waiter, the economy is not the same today as it was in 2001. Even fast food jobs have the average employee age in the 30s.  That is the reality on the ground today. Advising individuals to work harder and get better jobs is great - everyone should be working on improving their individual condition of course.  Throwing that same advice out there as some sort of workforce solution is immensely stupid.  Most people working minimum wage jobs don't work them by choice, but because that is all that is available.

Now, you can fall back a step further and say "well kiddo if all you can get is a minimum wage job you shouldn't go to college" I guess, but that seems kind of defeatist.  I guess we should expect the next generation to work at MickeyD's until they are 35 and have saved up enough for an education, then apply for entry level jobs in their field at 40?
 
2014-04-02 03:56:25 PM  

ginandbacon: Cyberluddite: I'm not sure it's actually possible to work your way though life with a minimum-wage job, let alone through college.

Done in two.


Should it be?
 
2014-04-02 03:58:11 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I can do some back of the envelope math, if you'd like, based on my experience in DC:
-Rent: $1100 (though I have a roommate, so you could use $2200 for a 2-bedroom)
-Food: $200 (I'm estimating. Part of the joys of single living on a high-ish salary is I don't have or need a "food budget". If I had a kid, this would be higher.)
-Utilities: $150 (I actually have utilities included in rent, but most do not. This is the approximate cost of my cell phone/internet usage)
-Transportation: $120 (I own a car, and pay for the insurance on it, but I take the train to work for $3.05 each way, 20 round trips per month. If you include my car payments on top of that, it's $350.)


$200 for food?

What, you mean a week?
 
2014-04-02 03:58:56 PM  

lilplatinum: What basic math shows your claim?


Uhh, the unemployment numbers? Unless you are such a farking retard that you believe everyone who is unemployed is there by choice?


I can see your advice now "the solution to unemployment is to get a job, durr"

lilplatinum: If you are making minimum wage and not a cent over as this argument in TFA assumes, then you are either a retard or you don't give a shiat.


Because if they were making a buck over minimum wage, that would change everything right?

Feel free to reread any of my comments with the change of "at or near minimum wage" instead of "minimum wage" if that is all you've got.
 
2014-04-02 04:00:38 PM  

sendtodave: $200 for food?

What, you mean a week?


I spend about 200 a week on food for three people.

Though I do like eggs and beans, which are pretty farking cheap, but that number also includes some amount of alcohol.
 
2014-04-02 04:00:53 PM  

sendtodave: Dr Dreidel: I can do some back of the envelope math, if you'd like, based on my experience in DC:
-Rent: $1100 (though I have a roommate, so you could use $2200 for a 2-bedroom)
-Food: $200 (I'm estimating. Part of the joys of single living on a high-ish salary is I don't have or need a "food budget". If I had a kid, this would be higher.)
-Utilities: $150 (I actually have utilities included in rent, but most do not. This is the approximate cost of my cell phone/internet usage)
-Transportation: $120 (I own a car, and pay for the insurance on it, but I take the train to work for $3.05 each way, 20 round trips per month. If you include my car payments on top of that, it's $350.)

$200 for food?

What, you mean a week?


$50 a week for food is eminently doable, albeit not quite as enticing as dropping a bit more. I probably averaged between $50 and $75 when I was in school.
 
2014-04-02 04:02:16 PM  

lilplatinum: 1950 it went from 40 cents an hour to 75 cents an hour in one fell swoop, thats pretty close.


Great. So you could absorb a doubling of your labor costs in your small business over night just like you did in 1950. This is what you're telling me.

Headso: I could understand having to raise it over the course of several years


Obviously this wouldn't be necessary. I mean .35 = 7.75
 
2014-04-02 04:02:48 PM  
Right.  Most college diets consist of macaroni and cheese, top ramen and pasta-roni.

\shudders
 
2014-04-02 04:03:31 PM  

d23: Sorry... this is a bullshiat argument to anyone that lives outside the corporate bubble. Literature, for instance, is worth study... what has happened is that a lot of people don't find value in anything that doesn't make them cash. And the entitlement argument can be seen as a backwards form of projection. Just because something doesn't make a corporation a wad of cash doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. There are things worth subsidizing because it makes society a better place to live in.


The point of society subsidizing the cost of a college education is not to let people do whatever the hell they want with no expectation of ROI. We want a better educated workforce that can produce something of value in order to compete with the rest of the world to come out the other side. If you do not do that you have wasted money someone else could have used to better themselves. Study literature for as long as you want, but do it on your own dime.
 
2014-04-02 04:04:14 PM  
Smackledorfer: "...Now, you can fall back a step further and say "well kiddo if all you can get is a minimum wage job you shouldn't go to college" I guess, but that seems kind of defeatist.  I guess we should expect the next generation to work at MickeyD's until they are 35 and have saved up enough for an education, then apply for entry level jobs in their field at 40? "


Honestly....   the 'powers that be' inside Government and outside Government in private circles don't seem to have any answers for college kids today.
 
2014-04-02 04:05:10 PM  

Headso: Dancin_In_Anson: Headso: No I think the economy will collapse like every other time we forced companies to pay more with a minimum wage hike.

When was the last time the wage more than doubled in one fell swoop?

I could understand having to raise it over the course of several years. The economy has done just fine under other raises in the minimum wage  and if it looks like it is going poorly each incremental raise could be postponed.  But come on, our economy relies on consumer spending so I think the whining from the oligarchs and their water carriers is something that can be ignored.


The last round of raises, from 5.15 to the current 7.25, was phased in in 3 incremental stages and took something like 2 years.

*checks wiki*

Fair Minimum Wage Act - signed (by President BUSH!) 25 May 2007:
-60 days after passage (24 July 2007), it went up 70 cents to $5.85 per hour
-a full year later (24 July 2008), it went up another 70 cents, to $6.55 per hour
-a full year after THAT (24 July 2009) it went up 70 cents to $7.25 per hour

So last time, we gave businesses 2 years for a roughly 50% increase ($5.15, raised by $2.10 overall). If we do it the same way this time - make it an $2.75 increase (to a flat $10/hour) with localized multipliers over the same time span - and where does a problem arise where there wasn't one last time?
 
2014-04-02 04:06:22 PM  
Graduated in 1984- community colleges were free in CA at that time so I did my first two years there and got all the required courses out of the way. Transferred to UC and finished there- books @$100 a term if I got lucky with used books, tuition was $450 a term. Worked full time in a bakery (at work at 4:00 AM, work til 8:00 AM, rode bus to school, came back to work at 4:00 PM til 8:00 PM, went to bed... no social life to speak of). Held down two jobs to finish the Masters and grabbed every scholarship I could hunt down.... Yes, I am bootstrappy.

But it could never be done today.

Just paid off school for the kids- $50,000 for one (four year), $20,000 (two year) for the other. And I give thanks for the inheritance from my parents and the full ride scholarship for the one now in grad school.
 
2014-04-02 04:06:44 PM  

ManRay: The point of society subsidizing the cost of a college education is not to let people do whatever the hell they want with no expectation of ROI. We want a better educated workforce that can produce something of value in order to compete with the rest of the world to come out the other side. If you do not do that you have wasted money someone else could have used to better themselves. Study literature for as long as you want, but do it on your own dime.


If you believe that an educated populace doesn't have an ROI above and beyond raw production that is directly related to the areas of study, then you are an idiot.

Now, if you REALLY believe what you claim you do, then I imagine you should be calling for the elimination of K-12 for about half of the population right? We could save a lot of money by not wasting time teaching people who will only go on to do menial labor to read and think.
 
2014-04-02 04:07:36 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: lilplatinum: 1950 it went from 40 cents an hour to 75 cents an hour in one fell swoop, thats pretty close.

Great. So you could absorb a doubling of your labor costs in your small business over night just like you did in 1950. This is what you're telling me.



It would be an awful hardship, you'd suddenly have a bunch of consumers with additional spending power.
 
2014-04-02 04:07:51 PM  

stappawho: Right.  Most college diets consist of macaroni and cheese, top ramen and pasta-roni.

\shudders


I'd be lying if I said my college diet didn't have more than its fair share of $1 mini pizzas or Mac n Cheese, but you can eat relatively healthy with the same budget. You just have concentrate on cheap starches (pasta, rice), non-meat protein (beans, nuts), and cheap, but hopefully fresh, produce.
 
2014-04-02 04:10:33 PM  

Tigger: Ironically[1] enough[2] people that[3] get a college degree are much less likely to become right wing authoritarians[4].....[5]

1. not ironic

2. use a comma for introductions

3. who

4. not true, in the sense that "right wing authoritarians" is a meaningless nut-job phrase used by goobers who also tend to say "xtian theocracy"

5. usage and grammar flames are legitimate when the target has delusions of edjumacational prowess

 
2014-04-02 04:12:55 PM  
I totally did it but it was 100% because at the time the good citizens of Texas opted to heavily subsidize their public schools. Thirty years ago tuition at Texas A&M was $4 an hour. That's $60 a semester. There was a little bit in the way of fees but it wasn't that much more, especially since I skipped the sports package. Books were my big problem. I always asked for upcoming textbooks as Xmas and birthday presents. I lived in a crap apartment with a bunch of roommates, never but never ate out, and still managed to have enough to drink plenty all on a succession of awful minimum wage jobs. I honestly don't think I would have gone to college if the relative cost was the same then as it is now. I would have hit the oil fields, I guess. (I almost did anyway.) I ended up with a PhD -- the economics of grad school, while frugal, were way easier.  I credit a Texas that no longer exists for my achieving that.
 
2014-04-02 04:15:39 PM  

Aar1012: waterrockets: I didn't have too much trouble with my $20/hr software engineering internship in 1994. YMMV.

Which probably became an unpaid internship sometime in 2002.


No, I regularly hire computer science interns for software engineering, and they are very well paid for their age.
 
2014-04-02 04:16:26 PM  
There's absolutely nothing wrong with ending up with some student debt after college.

There is, however, a problem with ending up with a debt of $50k+ for some crappy arts degree.
 
2014-04-02 04:16:39 PM  

Smackledorfer: sendtodave: $200 for food?

What, you mean a week?

I spend about 200 a week on food for three people.

Though I do like eggs and beans, which are pretty farking cheap, but that number also includes some amount of alcohol.


Oh.

You find time to cook.  I guess that would help.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=United+ St ates&city=Arlington%2C+VA

Combo Meal at McDonalds or Similar8.50

Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant18.00 $

Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle)6.00 $

Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle)6.00 $

Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle)6.00 $

Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle)6.00 $

Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle)6.00 $

Imported Beer (0.33 liter bottle)6.00 $


Taxi 1km (Normal Tariff)1.30  x20

And that's just a typical Tuesday.
 
2014-04-02 04:19:46 PM  

macdaddy357: College is a racket. It would be too expensive at a third of the price.


"College" is not a single product. You have to shop smart if you're shopping for an investment. This smart decision-making is more important now than it used to be.
 
2014-04-02 04:20:00 PM  

Smackledorfer: Uhh, the unemployment numbers? Unless you are such a farking retard that you believe everyone who is unemployed is there by choice?


Why did you say "basic math" instead of "unemployment numbers".

Probably because you realized that if you were that specific it would then bring up inconvenient facts like the fact that many unemployed people don't consider minimum wage jobs or waiting tables because they would sacrifice their unemployment and those jobs would not do anything to make them more employable in the immediate future.  (Not that there is anything wrong with these decisions).   These jobs do exist for kids.

Because if they were making a buck over minimum wage, that would change everything right?

Feel free to reread any of my comments with the change of "at or near minimum wage" instead of "minimum wage" if that is all you've got.


I would say if you have half a brain you can probably do $10 an hour at school.  That ain't exactly banking and may not eve be livable in some parts of the country, but if you choose to go to a public school you can certainly work enough to make the amount of loans you need to take out very managable.  Especially if you are smart enough to take your bullshiat classes at Community College and only have to pay 5-6 semesters at real school.

Dancin_In_Anson: Great. So you could absorb a doubling of your labor costs in your small business over night just like you did in 1950. This is what you're telling me.


Well my small busniess pays all of my employees over double the minimum wage already, so it's not an issue.  But apparently the sky didn't fall in 1950 and it wouldn't fall then.   I don't think it should be doubled overnight (or necessarily doubled), but significant raising of the minimum wage (you can even staggar it through phases over the next several years) would not make the world fall apart and all these mythical mom and pop stores that were long since shut down by wallmart anyway disappear. 

And you'd have the added benefit of the poorest people in society getting more cash in their hands, at least you know its going to be spent as opposed to someone like me who if you cut my taxes is probably going to spend it on vacation in europe.
 
2014-04-02 04:20:48 PM  

yequalsy: I totally did it but it was 100% because at the time the good citizens of Texas opted to heavily subsidize their public schools. Thirty years ago tuition at Texas A&M was $4 an hour. That's $60 a semester. There was a little bit in the way of fees but it wasn't that much more, especially since I skipped the sports package. Books were my big problem.


Books are a big problem for most people who go to Texas A&M.

/and numbers
//and stacking
 
2014-04-02 04:20:55 PM  

AngryDragon: The Goat Men Are Rampaging In The Fields: Obviously there are outliers, but people teaching college who are starting their careers now are definitely not people to be jealous of or angry with

Fair enough.  So exactly where the hell is all that money going?


I'm clearly not an education finance analyst, but it's definitely not going to the programs that would actually enhance education the most, from what I've seen in a limited capacity hat 5 different schools.  Getting funding to support programs that directly impact student success are a nightmare (writing centers are shown to increase course pass rates by 50% and graduation rates by 15% but getting funding...pulling teeth, etc.).  I do, however, see enormous numbers of staff and administrators getting paid to do things that other people easily could do.  Every admin I have ever worked with has complained to me about nowhere near enough work to stay busy (instead spending 75% of their time surfing the web), yet they seem to exist solely so the "old regime" faculty don't have to make their own copies.  Layers and layers of management, school administration, and new "beautification" projects would be my primary suspects from what I've seen--and I have only worked at state institutions.
 
2014-04-02 04:25:22 PM  

SunsetLament: Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.


This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.


Uh, no. Professors are nowhere NEAR that much of what a college's money goes to. Hell, colleges are doing everything they can to kill tenure and simply turn academia into a tiered system of administrators that rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars and converting their faculties into nothing but adjuncts and assistant professors working on-contract for a few thousand dollars a semester.

/adjunct history instructor
//you want to find the waste in college education, it's all going into administration
///no college president has ever justified more than 100K/year
 
2014-04-02 04:28:02 PM  

Strolpol: SunsetLament: Best Princess Celestia: Maybe people should look at the cost of college instead of the common college jobs.


This.  The higher education industry (Big School) is just as "evil" as all the other big businesses liberals rail on and on about constantly.  They convinced the country that if you don't go to college, you can't get a "good" job.  And now that everyone is convinced you can't exist in society without a college education, they have raised the costs of attending college through the roof.  College professors who work twice a week for two hours are making the same as cops and firemen.  You want to know the root cause of the problem?  There you go.

Uh, no. Professors are nowhere NEAR that much of what a college's money goes to. Hell, colleges are doing everything they can to kill tenure and simply turn academia into a tiered system of administrators that rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars and converting their faculties into nothing but adjuncts and assistant professors working on-contract for a few thousand dollars a semester.

/adjunct history instructor
//you want to find the waste in college education, it's all going into administration
///no college president has ever justified more than 100K/year


Pretty much right in line with my earlier post.  And as the trend to remove the actual professors from any chance of participating in quality control of education itself, that education will continue to devalue in practical terms.  People really will be just buying their piece of paper (enforced pass rates, anyone?).
 
2014-04-02 04:31:38 PM  

Headso: Three Crooked Squirrels: Cyberluddite: I have a kid who's going to start college in 2 years. I'm really not liking these numbers at all.

I have an 8-month old.  Think of how scary this trend is to me!

Don't worry America will be in full oligarchy/kleptocracy  mode at that point, paying for college with the be the least of their problems.


Pretty much this. This is why I have not and will not be having kids. Parents these days have their fingers in their ears and their hands over their eyes about how dire the global economic and environmental situation is. "I want someone to care for me when I'm old!" Yeah, well, you won't live to be old, and your kids even less so.
 
2014-04-02 04:32:03 PM  
Does anyone else smell plutocracy?
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2014-04-02 04:34:14 PM  
You know, increasing productivity was supposed to make life better for EVERYONE.

George Jetson has a line in the pilot of "The Jetsons" that goes something like "These three day workweeks are killing me!"

Instead, we work our ass off so that assholes in corporate boardrooms can give money to bigger suit-wearing assholes that work 2 days a week on Capitol Hill.
 
2014-04-02 04:37:36 PM  
The interesting thing about college education is that by making it open to nearly anyone with the desire, it has become almost mandatory, yet also devalued.

The problem with the cost of college is that enormous amounts of funding are being offered to 19 year olds who are neither suited for higher education, nor responsible enough to understand what paying back a loan really means.

So everybody has to get a college degree just to meet the foot-in-the-door minimum, and all the buy-now-pay-later funding means that the cost has somehow risen to meet what the market will bear. If only certain social engineers, who decided that higher education was a universal right, hadn't had such a disdain of capitalism that they were wilfully ignorant of how it works.

But you knew all this, and the rest of the thread is just the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the damned. Excuse me for now, that young lady with a comp lit degree and a bone in her nose is bringing me my coffee. Ta.
 
2014-04-02 04:43:01 PM  
Not everybody needs or should even go to college.  But that is a conversation for another day.

If you have the money or scholarships go right to college.  If not, hit up a CC while working and bust out your AA.  It may takes an extra year or two to finish up but that's not a big deal.  I took time off after my freshman year of college so I graduated about two years after my high school classmates (assuming they finished in 4 years).  No lingering affects from that.

Also, some debt is fine,  trying to fund your entire education via loans is typically not going to be a good idea.  Maybe law, dental or medical school.  But not undergrad.

I know people that worked while in school and took out the max amount in student loads.  They didn't need to, but it was 'free' money.  Bought cars and vacations.  15 years later they are still paying for it.
 
2014-04-02 04:44:08 PM  

stappawho: Right.  Most college diets consist of macaroni and cheese, top ramen and pasta-roni.

\shudders


Back in the day, Steak-umm and tortillas.
 
2014-04-02 04:44:25 PM  

ikanreed: Does anyone else smell plutocracy?


I think it might be wafting over from the Supreme Court thread, but I think the real villain here is the monetization of colleges, which have fully transitioned away from institutions designed for education and enrichment into what are effectively taxpayer-subsidized boarding schools designed to generate as much profit as possible for the school's board members and administrators, the overwhelming majority of whom make more than any of the educational faculty.

Colleges and the financial world have colluded to form a system by which very nearly all career-path jobs require a Bachelor's degree just to even get as far as being reviewed by HR. Colleges have likewise spent their time indoctrinating and propagandizing themselves to parents and kids alike that the only hope for a successful future is to go to college; and for better or worse, statistics back them up on that. Combined with a bevy of parasitic and exploitative side-businesses (college sports, textbook rackets, student loan financial institutions), it has created a system by which the only way you can succeed is to be born into enough wealth to bear the costs.

There are probably some reforms Congress could undertake to fix these problems, but I'm rather pessimistic about that possibility. College is currently in a bubble state of endless price increase that can't last much longer.
 
2014-04-02 04:44:45 PM  

Smackledorfer: If you believe that an educated populace doesn't have an ROI above and beyond raw production that is directly related to the areas of study, then you are an idiot.


I do realize that. But we do not have unlimited cash on hand for this sort of thing so I would rather send a guy to trade school to learn HVAC than spend 4 times as much for someone to study English Lit and not be able to get a job when they graduate.
 
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