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(Gallup)   Gallup poll finds 68% of Americans view Russia as unfriendly or our enemy. Which is still 20% less than the number of Republicans who feel the same way about President Obama   (gallup.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, opinion polls, President Obama, Republicans, Gallup, Russia, Americans, U.S., Current Population Survey  
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350 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Mar 2014 at 9:26 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-29 08:17:44 AM  
Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business
 
2014-03-29 08:53:00 AM  

cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business


Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.
 
2014-03-29 08:53:47 AM  

enry: cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business

Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.


Fine. Bash my strawman. See if I care
 
2014-03-29 09:19:35 AM  

enry: cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business

Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.


I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.
 
2014-03-29 09:22:32 AM  
We've always been at war with Eastasia
 
2014-03-29 09:36:38 AM  
I regard Putin as a mobster boss and a dick, but I don't hold that against the Russian people directly. I think they're all facepalming (in private, of course) about their dipsh*t ruler doing crazy stuff much like were all were doing in the 2001-2008 years when Chimpy McFlightsuit was in charge.
 
2014-03-29 09:38:51 AM  
static6.businessinsider.com
 
2014-03-29 09:39:08 AM  
Mitt Romney warned us libulardos!

Where are your precious fartbingo phones now?
 
2014-03-29 09:39:43 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.


The Iraq war critics never realized their hyperbolic narrative spinning could be used to justify bad things by other people? I'm shocked.

We went into Iraq after a long-standing conflict that was never fully resolved. Anyone over 30 should at least realize the history as they'd have been alive for the first gulf war.
 
2014-03-29 09:40:52 AM  
68%? That's almost 69%!
 
2014-03-29 09:41:01 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: enry: cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business

Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.

I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.


My point was we didn't annex Iraq, so its hard to compare the reasoning and outcomes of each. Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.
 
2014-03-29 09:41:30 AM  
Russian Tea party:

static3.businessinsider.com
 
2014-03-29 09:48:23 AM  
Ah, the wisdom of the masses. Is there ANYTHING the common sense of the majority can't correctly discern?
 
2014-03-29 09:57:01 AM  

cman: enry: cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business

Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.

Fine. Bash my strawman. See if I care


That might be a bit hyperbolic, but I get the drift.  The Project for the New American Century's plan was a massive injection of Western-style democracy in the hopes that it would infect the region over time.
 
2014-03-29 09:59:04 AM  

enry: Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.


According to the election the Russians rigged......

I was with you up until that point.  You don't go invading other counties' sovereign territory anymore.  It's just not an acceptable tool in international relations.  It wasn't ok when we did it, and it's not ok now that the Russians are doing it.
 
2014-03-29 10:02:23 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: enry: cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business

Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.

I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.


Russia's death toll so far is what, maybe 10?
 
2014-03-29 10:05:11 AM  

Mrbogey: PC LOAD LETTER: I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.

The Iraq war critics never realized their hyperbolic narrative spinning could be used to justify bad things by other people? I'm shocked.

We went into Iraq after a long-standing conflict that was never fully resolved. Anyone over 30 should at least realize the history as they'd have been alive for the first gulf war.


You mean the history that Iraq had been effectively neutralized for over 10 years and posed no threat to anyone? Yea, I realized that.  I can think of another long-standing conflict that was never fully resolved... maybe we should invade North Korea.
 
2014-03-29 10:05:47 AM  

Lost Thought 00: PC LOAD LETTER: enry: cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business

Iraq is our 51st state? Did not know that.

I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.

Russia's death toll so far is what, maybe 10?


Precisely his point.
 
2014-03-29 10:10:14 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: enry: Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.

According to the election the Russians rigged......

I was with you up until that point.  You don't go invading other counties' sovereign territory anymore.  It's just not an acceptable tool in international relations.  It wasn't ok when we did it, and it's not ok now that the Russians are doing it.


OK, more of a liberator than we were. Then again, there weren't many Americans living in Iraq. Of course H*tler used this scheme to invade Austra so Putin's reasoning should keep us on our toes.

And I'm not disputing that it's OK in either case. But to compare the circumstances behind Iraq and Crimea ignores a lot.
 
2014-03-29 10:13:49 AM  
 Ha, it's better than that. Read through almost any right wing website, a good number of people see this guy as some kind of living god almost. This hilarious part is that they are the same folks who called people traitors for just opposing Bushes policies.
 
2014-03-29 10:15:10 AM  

enry: HMS_Blinkin: enry: Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.

According to the election the Russians rigged......

I was with you up until that point.  You don't go invading other counties' sovereign territory anymore.  It's just not an acceptable tool in international relations.  It wasn't ok when we did it, and it's not ok now that the Russians are doing it.

OK, more of a liberator than we were. Then again, there weren't many Americans living in Iraq. Of course H*tler used this scheme to invade Austra so Putin's reasoning should keep us on our toes.

And I'm not disputing that it's OK in either case. But to compare the circumstances behind Iraq and Crimea ignores a lot.


Godwin in 18 comments

Not fast enough for a putin thread. Get it together
 
2014-03-29 10:25:39 AM  
I find it curious how throughout the Cold War were were all taught the "Godless Commies" has destroyed religion in the USSR, but now Putin counts on the Russian Orthodox Church (with more than 70 percent of the Russian population as members) as the core of his political base.
Guess the tip-off was all those pictures of Red Square with St. Basil's Cathedral in the background.
Turns out the proletariat didn't read Marx either.
 
2014-03-29 10:28:08 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: enry: HMS_Blinkin: enry: Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.

According to the election the Russians rigged......

I was with you up until that point.  You don't go invading other counties' sovereign territory anymore.  It's just not an acceptable tool in international relations.  It wasn't ok when we did it, and it's not ok now that the Russians are doing it.

OK, more of a liberator than we were. Then again, there weren't many Americans living in Iraq. Of course H*tler used this scheme to invade Austra so Putin's reasoning should keep us on our toes.

And I'm not disputing that it's OK in either case. But to compare the circumstances behind Iraq and Crimea ignores a lot.

Godwin in 18 comments

Not fast enough for a putin thread. Get it together


Godwin is only in effect when the person compared to Hitler did nothing even close to what Hitler did.

For example,

"Obamacare has been rammed down our throats like Hitler did" or "smokers are being treated no different that the jews in Hitler's ovens" - Godwin's Law is in full effect

but

"Putin's actions in Crimea are reminiscent of how Hitler started grabbing land in Europe" - Godwin not met.  Sorry.
 
2014-03-29 10:31:03 AM  
Everyone ever to annex anything is hitler

Got it
 
2014-03-29 10:34:09 AM  

Mrbogey: PC LOAD LETTER: I have been thinking a lot about this analogy. It's of course not a good analogy (in fact, it's horrible), but we have really nearly zero moral leg to stand on here. We invaded a nation, the death toll for which is horrifying, all on false pretenses, whether those be accidental or intentional. Of course, we at least attempted to pretend that we were working via the UN and via an international coalition, but the end result is that we had a beef with Iraq and settled it by invasion. What Putin did was incredibly sneaky and underhanded, but if were going to compare the two situations, they come out WAY better than we do. And that's terrifying.

The Iraq war critics never realized their hyperbolic narrative spinning could be used to justify bad things by other people? I'm shocked.


What the shiat are you talking about? Are you seriously ignoring that Russia took one look at what we did and said "wow, thanks! I'll keep that in mind!" and you are trying to pin this on the critics? "Emboldening the enemy" is bullshiat. Our actions embolden our enemies.

We went into Iraq after a long-standing conflict that was never fully resolved. Anyone over 30 should at least realize the history as they'd have been alive for the first gulf war.

I have friends who fought in Gulf I, so perhaps you should ask yourself why "full invasion, unconditional surrender, and occupation" is the only definition of "fully resolved" first. Plus, the goal of the war was to liberate Kuwait, which was achieved. So while YOU think the goal SHOULD have been to take out Saddam, that's not how the universe works. Not every military action results in an occupation.
 
2014-03-29 10:35:59 AM  

Great_Milenko: but

"Putin's actions in Crimea are reminiscent of how Hitler started grabbing land in Europe" - Godwin not met.  Sorry.


I don't think you understand Godwin's Law.
 
2014-03-29 10:37:21 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: Great_Milenko: but

"Putin's actions in Crimea are reminiscent of how Hitler started grabbing land in Europe" - Godwin not met.  Sorry.

I don't think you understand Godwin's Law.


You know who else liked laws?

Hitler.
 
2014-03-29 10:39:55 AM  
At the same time, 64% of Americans believe Ukraine is an ally (17%) or friendly (47%) nation to the U.S.

www.melancholymen.com
What the Beatles were singing about: "Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out, they leave the West behind"
♪♫ Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends ♪♫
 
2014-03-29 10:44:37 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: enry: HMS_Blinkin: enry: Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.

According to the election the Russians rigged......

I was with you up until that point.  You don't go invading other counties' sovereign territory anymore.  It's just not an acceptable tool in international relations.  It wasn't ok when we did it, and it's not ok now that the Russians are doing it.

OK, more of a liberator than we were. Then again, there weren't many Americans living in Iraq. Of course H*tler used this scheme to invade Austra so Putin's reasoning should keep us on our toes.

And I'm not disputing that it's OK in either case. But to compare the circumstances behind Iraq and Crimea ignores a lot.

Godwin in 18 comments

Not fast enough for a putin thread. Get it together


I kinda walked into that one, didn't I...

But can you call Godwin if it's really true? Because it is.

Doesn't mean that Putin is going to carve up Poland or start gassing Jews, but the reasoning these two leaders gave for annexing territory and the way they went about it are almost exactly the same.
 
2014-03-29 10:44:41 AM  
Thanks Gallup - I sure do appreciate that super serial important much wow infromation, along with all the other brilliant polling you do.
Always nice to know what Cletus and Lurline "think" about things.
 
2014-03-29 10:45:03 AM  

JAYoung: I find it curious how throughout the Cold War were were all taught the "Godless Commies" has destroyed religion in the USSR, but now Putin counts on the Russian Orthodox Church (with more than 70 percent of the Russian population as members) as the core of his political base.
Guess the tip-off was all those pictures of Red Square with St. Basil's Cathedral in the background.
Turns out the proletariat didn't read Marx either.


Learn some history. Read the book "Revolution 1989".

Religion was discriminated against officially, but as long as they didn't do political stuff, they were almost completely ignored.
 
2014-03-29 10:50:37 AM  

enry: But can you call Godwin if it's really true? Because it is.

Doesn't mean that Putin is going to carve up Poland or start gassing Jews, but the reasoning these two leaders gave for annexing territory and the way they went about it are almost exactly the same.


Really? Putin wanted Crimea for lebensraum? I'm gonna need a citation on that.
 
2014-03-29 10:54:01 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: enry: HMS_Blinkin: enry: Of course, Putin really was greeted as a liberator.

According to the election the Russians rigged......

I was with you up until that point.  You don't go invading other counties' sovereign territory anymore.  It's just not an acceptable tool in international relations.  It wasn't ok when we did it, and it's not ok now that the Russians are doing it.

OK, more of a liberator than we were. Then again, there weren't many Americans living in Iraq. Of course H*tler used this scheme to invade Austra so Putin's reasoning should keep us on our toes.

And I'm not disputing that it's OK in either case. But to compare the circumstances behind Iraq and Crimea ignores a lot.

Godwin in 18 comments

Not fast enough for a putin thread. Get it together


According to Godwin, that's not a Godwin.
 
2014-03-29 10:57:27 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: Great_Milenko: but

"Putin's actions in Crimea are reminiscent of how Hitler started grabbing land in Europe" - Godwin not met.  Sorry.

I don't think you understand Godwin's Law.


Godwin hates what his law turned into. It went from EXACTLY what Great Milenko said to simply any mention of Hitler or the NAZIs. So popular culture ruined Godwin's Law and now it's just a stupid fallacy to invoke Godwin on a legitimate historical comparison. It's to the point where someone could be gassing Jews and cremating the remains and people would call Godwin's Law on someone who said, "Hey, didn't Hitler do that?" It's farking stupid.
 
2014-03-29 10:57:37 AM  

cman: JAYoung: I find it curious how throughout the Cold War were were all taught the "Godless Commies" has destroyed religion in the USSR, but now Putin counts on the Russian Orthodox Church (with more than 70 percent of the Russian population as members) as the core of his political base.
Guess the tip-off was all those pictures of Red Square with St. Basil's Cathedral in the background.
Turns out the proletariat didn't read Marx either.

Learn some history. Read the book "Revolution 1989".

Religion was discriminated against officially, but as long as they didn't do political stuff, they were almost completely ignored.



On second thought, and after a Wikipedia read, that wasn't always the case. It does look like there was significant discrimination at times, especially pre-WWII.
 
2014-03-29 11:01:24 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: enry: But can you call Godwin if it's really true? Because it is.

Doesn't mean that Putin is going to carve up Poland or start gassing Jews, but the reasoning these two leaders gave for annexing territory and the way they went about it are almost exactly the same.

Really? Putin wanted Crimea for lebensraum? I'm gonna need a citation on that.


"Hey, there are a lot of _[Nationality]__ in ____[Region of another country]____ who want to leave and join ____[Motherland]____. You should let them."

Germans/Russians
Sudetenland/Crimea
Germany/Russia
But you know what? You're right.

Hitler didn't send troops in first. He negotiated for it.
 
2014-03-29 11:02:57 AM  
To be fair, Obama has farked up the country way worse than the Russians ever will.
 
2014-03-29 11:03:06 AM  
Or we could stop comparing Putin to Hitler cause he's not Hitler
 
2014-03-29 11:03:25 AM  

cman: cman: JAYoung: I find it curious how throughout the Cold War were were all taught the "Godless Commies" has destroyed religion in the USSR, but now Putin counts on the Russian Orthodox Church (with more than 70 percent of the Russian population as members) as the core of his political base.
Guess the tip-off was all those pictures of Red Square with St. Basil's Cathedral in the background.
Turns out the proletariat didn't read Marx either.

Learn some history. Read the book "Revolution 1989".

Religion was discriminated against officially, but as long as they didn't do political stuff, they were almost completely ignored.


On second thought, and after a Wikipedia read, that wasn't always the case. It does look like there was significant discrimination at times, especially pre-WWII.


I was going to say - it also depends, much like in NAZI Germany, what religion. Russian Orthodox in the CCCP didn't have NEARLY the problems Catholics did, just like Lutherans did better than Jehova's Witnesses in the Third Reich.
 
2014-03-29 11:04:42 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Or we could stop comparing Putin to Hitler cause he's not Hitler


All analogies are wrong. Some analogies are useful.
 
2014-03-29 11:08:02 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: Great_Milenko: but

"Putin's actions in Crimea are reminiscent of how Hitler started grabbing land in Europe" - Godwin not met.  Sorry.

I don't think you understand Godwin's Law.


I always thought it was "an argument is over when someone is compared to hitler".  Oh well.
 
2014-03-29 11:09:44 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Or we could stop comparing Putin to Hitler cause he's not Hitler


Yes, we really need to get back to comparing hitler to a true monster, Barry al-Hussein Superhitler Fartbongo.

//Hitler is his middle-name!
 
2014-03-29 11:10:05 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Or we could stop comparing Putin to Hitler cause he's not Hitler


Never said he was, so I'd appreciate you not implying I did.
 
2014-03-29 11:10:18 AM  
The US annexed Puerto Rico. McKinley is therefor Hitler
 
2014-03-29 11:13:53 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Everyone ever to annex anything is hitler

Got it


No. So learn some history and quit being obtuse.
 
2014-03-29 11:18:26 AM  

enry: Doktor_Zhivago: Everyone ever to annex anything is hitler

Got it

No. So learn some history and quit being obtuse.


Putin is on an ultranationalist quest for lebensraum for his racially superior ubermenschen and is willing to start a global war to achieve that goal?

Or is he just projecting Russian power over areas he feels Russian influence has traditionally dominated?

They're so simlar how could I possibly miss the connection?
 
2014-03-29 11:18:44 AM  

vygramul: Doktor_Zhivago: Or we could stop comparing Putin to Hitler cause he's not Hitler

All analogies are wrong. Some analogies are useful.


Useful to who? Comparing Putin to Hitler is completely ignoring the history of the situation. Russia made a move to protect their vital national security interest by taking Crimea back from a belligerent Ukraine that wants to join the EU and NATO. NATO has already brought in Poland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.
 
2014-03-29 11:20:56 AM  

Doktor_Zhivago: enry: Doktor_Zhivago: Everyone ever to annex anything is hitler

Got it

No. So learn some history and quit being obtuse.

Putin is on an ultranationalist quest for lebensraum for his racially superior ubermenschen and is willing to start a global war to achieve that goal?

Or is he just projecting Russian power over areas he feels Russian influence has traditionally dominated?

They're so simlar how could I possibly miss the connection?


So you're trolling. Well you got me good for a while. Congrats. 8/10.
 
2014-03-29 11:23:06 AM  

Mrbogey:
The Iraq war critics never realized their hyperbolic narrative spinning could be used to justify bad things by other people? I'm shocked.


And by "critics" of course you mean "advocates and perpetrators". Many critics warned that it could become a bad precedent.
 
2014-03-29 11:24:25 AM  

cman: Well, to be fair, that whole deal in Iraq kinda told them that its ok to invade other people who don't do what you want them to do.

/Still does not make it right
//Or our business


Violations of international laws are everybody's business.
 
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