If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Telegraph)   You know how biofuels like ethanol were supposed to help the environment? About that   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 87
    More: Interesting, palm oil, sunflowers, cultivation, biofuels, effects of global warming, biodiesel, sugar canes, agricultural land  
•       •       •

3330 clicks; posted to Geek » on 29 Mar 2014 at 8:39 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



87 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-03-29 08:52:07 AM
Apparently the telegraph is confused by nuanced issues such as energy policy
 
2014-03-29 08:54:13 AM
Ethanol was never a great solution.  Algae-based biofuels seem a lot more realistic in terms of actual logistics.
 
2014-03-29 09:01:03 AM
Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water
 
2014-03-29 09:01:41 AM
Doktor_Zhivago:
Apparently the telegraph is confused by nuanced issues such as energy policy

"Nuance" is a modern code word for "I can't really defend this, so I'm going to just pretend I'm so smart I can't explain it."
 
2014-03-29 09:09:47 AM

GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water


When water is used, it is gone forever. This is why the oceans have dried up.
 
2014-03-29 09:14:00 AM

cirby: Doktor_Zhivago:
Apparently the telegraph is confused by nuanced issues such as energy policy

"Nuance" is a modern code word for "I can't really defend this, so I'm going to just pretend I'm so smart I can't explain it."


There are pros and cons to every energy source.

I don't think bioethanol is any worse than setting people's tap water on fire to get the sweet sweet natural gas under their front yard.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2014-03-29 09:22:02 AM
Ethanol is a terrible fuel.  It's corrosive to fuel systems.  It's destroys lawn equipment if it sits for 6 months or more.  A buddy of mine does small engine repair and ethanol damage alone has quadrupled his repair sales.

They're right, Ethanol pushes up food prices.  In Mexico, they've had riots because the price of corn flour (a food staple)  has skyrocketed because per bushel price of corn exploded.  Why? Because of the American Ethanol production efforts.  When you put a huge load on a fixed supply the price goes up.

Just before the US started using Ethanol in fuel, the price of corn was around $250 per ton.  A year later????? around $550 per ton.  In 2012 it jumped to $800 per ton.  This has caused a dramatic rise in meat prices and an increase in cost of corn products.
 
2014-03-29 09:23:22 AM
All I know from my time living in Nebraska is that too many people see ethanol as a way to make the Great Plains into the new Arabia. They're close to being correct: It's full of religious nutjobs reliant on one commodity for their success.
 
2014-03-29 09:29:20 AM

NFA: Ethanol is a terrible fuel.  It's corrosive to fuel systems.  It's destroys lawn equipment if it sits for 6 months or more.  A buddy of mine does small engine repair and ethanol damage alone has quadrupled his repair sales.

They're right, Ethanol pushes up food prices.  In Mexico, they've had riots because the price of corn flour (a food staple)  has skyrocketed because per bushel price of corn exploded.  Why? Because of the American Ethanol production efforts.  When you put a huge load on a fixed supply the price goes up.

Just before the US started using Ethanol in fuel, the price of corn was around $250 per ton.  A year later????? around $550 per ton.  In 2012 it jumped to $800 per ton.  This has caused a dramatic rise in meat prices and an increase in cost of corn products.


I always tell people, if you are running pump gas in your lawn shiat, run it dry. If you have a fuel petcock, turn it to off with the engine running and let all the lines and carb clear. Then drain the tank. Best way to still use pump gas and minimize damage.

I keep GTX260 or VP SEF around, personally. fark ethanol.
 
2014-03-29 09:33:20 AM

HMS_Blinkin: Ethanol was never a great solution.  Algae-based biofuels seem a lot more realistic in terms of actual logistics.


Yeah.  EtOH is shiat-tastic in all respects, especially if they make it from food.  Cellulosic ethanol's a bit better, but not by much.

FAME-produced biodiesel is good for the short term: you can do it in your garage.  It's not going to meet demand, though.

Fischer-Tropsch synthesis using waste materials as a feedstock is promising, but it's still energy intensive, since you have to convert everything to CO2 and H2 using high-temperature steam first.

Ideally it would be nice to catalytically convert biomass into diesel-range fuel.  I can tell you a dozen different ways that will never, ever work, but Los Alamos is still working on it and getting better results than I did.
 
2014-03-29 09:33:53 AM
Tea partiers and deniers.
 
2014-03-29 09:36:23 AM

Shakin_Haitian: GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water

When water is used, it is gone forever. This is why the oceans have dried up.


And that is *exactly* why the Ogallala aquifer has as much water now as it did 100 years ago, because it doesn't matter where the water goes, it's always there.

Smrt
 
2014-03-29 09:43:17 AM

r1niceboy: All I know from my time living in Nebraska is that too many people see ethanol as a way to make the Great Plains into the new Arabia. They're close to being correct: It's full of religious nutjobs reliant on one commodity for their success.


If pulling in massive amounts of government subsidies is welfare, then success has been achieved.
 
2014-03-29 09:53:52 AM
I can't remember the last time I thought ethanol was a good idea.
 
2014-03-29 09:54:13 AM
Well good thing this is a UN report so we can ignore it. Wouldn't want to upset the biofuel industry and their business model of reliance on government subsidies.
 
2014-03-29 10:05:23 AM
butanol.
 
2014-03-29 10:05:27 AM
Remember when california liberals forced MTBE into the gas supply "for the environment"?

/// cleanup for that little escapade is estimated to run around 25-30 billion.
//// yes, with a "b".
 
2014-03-29 10:06:49 AM
 
2014-03-29 10:11:16 AM

OnlyM3: Remember when california liberals forced MTBE into the gas supply "for the environment"?

/// cleanup for that little escapade is estimated to run around 25-30 billion.
//// yes, with a "b".


Yeah lead was way better
 
2014-03-29 10:16:04 AM
All tractors should run on ethanol. Checkmate.
 
2014-03-29 10:21:49 AM

El Dudereno: r1niceboy: All I know from my time living in Nebraska is that too many people see ethanol as a way to make the Great Plains into the new Arabia. They're close to being correct: It's full of religious nutjobs reliant on one commodity for their success.

If pulling in massive amounts of government subsidies is welfare, then success has been achieved.


I'll correct my assertion. Two commodities, ethanol and easily bought politicians.
 
2014-03-29 10:21:59 AM
Meanwhile, other countries acually get their citizens to seperate their food waste from their other waste, collect it, and make their bio-fuel from that.

In the city I lived in for a while, the public transport busses are all run on that, and if you convert your motor to run on it, the city lets you fuel up for free.

0_o
 
2014-03-29 10:30:00 AM

GRCooper: Shakin_Haitian: GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water

When water is used, it is gone forever. This is why the oceans have dried up.

And that is *exactly* why the Ogallala aquifer has as much water now as it did 100 years ago, because it doesn't matter where the water goes, it's always there.

Smrt


So now we're qualifying the water.
 
2014-03-29 10:35:01 AM

Shakin_Haitian: GRCooper: Shakin_Haitian: GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water

When water is used, it is gone forever. This is why the oceans have dried up.

And that is *exactly* why the Ogallala aquifer has as much water now as it did 100 years ago, because it doesn't matter where the water goes, it's always there.

Smrt

So now we're qualifying the water.


WTF does that even mean?

Enjoy trying to irrigate the great plains with your runoff that's swirling through the Mississippi on the way to the gulf.
 
2014-03-29 10:35:58 AM
I've been saying this for years.

Maybe the UN has a loud enough voice Washington will listen.
 
2014-03-29 10:42:48 AM
Cars pollute way more than horses which is why they never really took off.

/People miss the point that alternative fuels are about finding new sources of energy more than they are being nice to the environment
 
2014-03-29 11:00:39 AM

edmo: Cars pollute way more than horses which is why they never really took off.

/People miss the point that alternative fuels are about finding new sources of energy more than they are being nice to the environment


No we have to squeeze every drop of oil out of every rock because the alternatives aren't perfect enough and ruin lawnmowers
 
2014-03-29 11:04:52 AM

Doktor_Zhivago: edmo: Cars pollute way more than horses which is why they never really took off.

/People miss the point that alternative fuels are about finding new sources of energy more than they are being nice to the environment

No we have to squeeze every drop of oil out of every rock because the alternatives aren't perfect enough and ruin lawnmowers


No we have to keep using a touchy-feely solution that wasn't thought through because if you don't you hate panda's
 
2014-03-29 11:05:32 AM
I heard wind power kills birds.

Burning coal is way better
 
2014-03-29 11:05:55 AM
Bio fuels have been around forever and they never really improved on the process.
Early diesel engines were made to run on vegetable oils until the 1920's
And the Nazi's and Americans used bio fuels during WWII
For a good read:
http://www.ybiofuels.org/resources/history_biofuel.php
 
2014-03-29 11:14:35 AM
What do you mean "biofuels like ethanol"?
As far as I know, the only biofuel that is "like ethanol" is ethanol.
 
2014-03-29 11:15:04 AM
The problem isn't biofuels, it's using stupid-ass crops like corn to make the fuel. Which, itself, is a problem with crooked politicians rigging the agricultural subsidies system for personal gain.
 
2014-03-29 11:19:41 AM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: The problem isn't biofuels, it's using stupid-ass crops like corn to make the fuel. Which, itself, is a problem with crooked politicians rigging the agricultural subsidies system for personal gain.


Exactly, hemp give more bang for the buck
 
2014-03-29 11:29:20 AM
Doktor_Zhivago:
I don't think bioethanol is any worse than setting people's tap water on fire to get the sweet sweet natural gas under their front yard.

Except, of course, that all of the cases where they try to pretend that happened are in places where the water was like that before anyone started drilling for oil. That scene in Gasland? People have been lighting their water on fire for decades in that area. Natural gas deposits are really near the surface in a lot of places, and surface seepage has been one of the old-school ways to find natural gas fields.

...and about MTBE:

Yeah lead was way better

Actually, octane itself was way better, but the Powers That Be decided we needed "oxygenators" in gasoline, so the oil companies had to go a different route.
 
2014-03-29 11:41:13 AM

jso2897: What do you mean "biofuels like ethanol"?
As far as I know, the only biofuel that is "like ethanol" is ethanol.


Biodiesel (mentioned already). Also butanol, a 4-carbon alcohol which has properties closer to that of gasoline.
 
2014-03-29 11:45:26 AM

GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water


Or "how to make a Canadian nervous".
 
2014-03-29 11:47:21 AM
The only thing ethanol polluted gasoline "helps" is my cousin's bank account as he puts more and more prairie back into service to produce corn.
 
2014-03-29 12:07:56 PM

NFA: Ethanol is a terrible fuel.  It's corrosive to fuel systems.  It's destroys lawn equipment if it sits for 6 months or more.  A buddy of mine does small engine repair and ethanol damage alone has quadrupled his repair sales.

They're right, Ethanol pushes up food prices.  In Mexico, they've had riots because the price of corn flour (a food staple)  has skyrocketed because per bushel price of corn exploded.  Why? Because of the American Ethanol production efforts.  When you put a huge load on a fixed supply the price goes up.

Just before the US started using Ethanol in fuel, the price of corn was around $250 per ton.  A year later????? around $550 per ton.  In 2012 it jumped to $800 per ton.  This has caused a dramatic rise in meat prices and an increase in cost of corn products.


It's rare on FARK to actually read accurate facts, but this must be a lucky day. Ethanol as an additive rots out the materials used to make gaskets in gas and diesel engines, and it's gotten to the point in the boating world (where engines might only run once a week) to trade "secrets" about where unadulterated diesel and gas might be obtained for outboards and auxiliaries.

Diesel from algae or cellulose, on the other hand, is very clean, and only has a few of the issues of incomplete esterization. The biggest current hassle is that glycerol in large amounts (about 10% of the process) is produced and there's only so much use for "Grandad's antifreeze", although as a non-toxic carb, it could be eaten by something.
 
2014-03-29 12:08:55 PM

Psylence: NFA: Ethanol is a terrible fuel.  It's corrosive to fuel systems.  It's destroys lawn equipment if it sits for 6 months or more.  A buddy of mine does small engine repair and ethanol damage alone has quadrupled his repair sales.

They're right, Ethanol pushes up food prices.  In Mexico, they've had riots because the price of corn flour (a food staple)  has skyrocketed because per bushel price of corn exploded.  Why? Because of the American Ethanol production efforts.  When you put a huge load on a fixed supply the price goes up.

Just before the US started using Ethanol in fuel, the price of corn was around $250 per ton.  A year later????? around $550 per ton.  In 2012 it jumped to $800 per ton.  This has caused a dramatic rise in meat prices and an increase in cost of corn products.

I always tell people, if you are running pump gas in your lawn shiat, run it dry. If you have a fuel petcock, turn it to off with the engine running and let all the lines and carb clear. Then drain the tank. Best way to still use pump gas and minimize damage.

I keep GTX260 or VP SEF around, personally. fark ethanol.


The run dry and empty the tank technique would have helped me avoid a carb rebuild on my Honda outboard.
 
2014-03-29 12:09:56 PM

Doktor_Zhivago: edmo: Cars pollute way more than horses which is why they never really took off.

/People miss the point that alternative fuels are about finding new sources of energy more than they are being nice to the environment

No we have to squeeze every drop of oil out of every rock because the alternatives aren't perfect enough and ruin lawnmowers


Replace every lawn with a patch of hemp. Win-win!
 
2014-03-29 12:13:00 PM

HMS_Blinkin: Ethanol was never a great solution.  Algae-based biofuels seem a lot more realistic in terms of actual logistics.


This.  The only people who ever thought it was a good idea to turn corn into fuel were the corn growers who benefited from the government subsidies.  Even using algae to create the ethanol still suffers from the same drawbacks of inferior energy density compared to regular gasoline and the problem with the fuel turning to sludge and deteriorating fuel lines.
 
2014-03-29 12:16:49 PM
A major purpose of ethanol production is to stabilize corn prices. I don't know of any farmer who talks about the environmental goodness of ethanol. However, people forget that the byproduct of ethanol production is a nutritious foodstuff for cattle.
 
2014-03-29 12:16:49 PM

NFA: Just before the US started using Ethanol in fuel, the price of corn was around $250 per ton. A year later????? around $550 per ton. In 2012 it jumped to $800 per ton. This has caused a dramatic rise in meat prices and an increase in cost of corn products.


Excellent.  This is a good opportunity then to quit feeding corn to some of those animals - they aren't supposed to be eating it anyway.
 
2014-03-29 12:19:48 PM
Environmentalists thought ethanol was a bad idea since day one.  It was nothing more than a handout from Bush to his Midwest supporters.
 
2014-03-29 12:32:43 PM

NFA: Ethanol is a terrible fuel.  It's corrosive to fuel systems.  It's destroys lawn equipment if it sits for 6 months or more.  A buddy of mine does small engine repair and ethanol damage alone has quadrupled his repair sales.

They're right, Ethanol pushes up food prices.  In Mexico, they've had riots because the price of corn flour (a food staple)  has skyrocketed because per bushel price of corn exploded.  Why? Because of the American Ethanol production efforts.  When you put a huge load on a fixed supply the price goes up.

Just before the US started using Ethanol in fuel, the price of corn was around $250 per ton.  A year later????? around $550 per ton.  In 2012 it jumped to $800 per ton.  This has caused a dramatic rise in meat prices and an increase in cost of corn products.


And forces me to buy my boat's gas at the marina for a huge overcharge.
 
2014-03-29 12:34:34 PM

GRCooper: Shakin_Haitian: GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water

When water is used, it is gone forever. This is why the oceans have dried up.

And that is *exactly* why the Ogallala aquifer has as much water now as it did 100 years ago, because it doesn't matter where the water goes, it's always there.

Smrt


Yea, but there wouldn't be a ww3 over water when there are oceans to desalinate.
 
2014-03-29 12:40:49 PM

cirby: Doktor_Zhivago:
Apparently the telegraph is confused by nuanced issues such as energy policy

"Nuance" is a modern code word for "I can't really defend this, so I'm going to just pretend I'm so smart I can't explain it."


Just because everyone in farks thinks you're an idiot, you don't have to verify it.
 
2014-03-29 12:42:37 PM

jso2897: What do you mean "biofuels like ethanol"?
As far as I know, the only biofuel that is "like ethanol" is ethanol.


In common use, that phrase means ethanol is an example of a type of biofuel.


Also, since you knew this and probably thought you were showing your smartitude by being a language nerd, see definition 4:
http://i.word.com/idictionary/-like

When feigning ignorance in a pedantic fashion, one ought to be at least technically correct :)
 
2014-03-29 12:45:04 PM

Smackledorfer: GRCooper: Shakin_Haitian: GRCooper: Read a report in the Economist a few years back - it takes 26 or so gallons of water to create 1 gallon of ethanol (versus 1:1 for gasoline )

If true, it doesn't sound viable as a gas replacement - WW3 will be fought over water

When water is used, it is gone forever. This is why the oceans have dried up.

And that is *exactly* why the Ogallala aquifer has as much water now as it did 100 years ago, because it doesn't matter where the water goes, it's always there.

Smrt

Yea, but there wouldn't be a ww3 over water when there are oceans to desalinate.


We had plenty of crown princes, but WW1 still happened.

/slightly snarky, but still - all it takes is a flashpoint. A fight over water rights. Best bet at this point, India/Pakistan
 
2014-03-29 12:51:18 PM

Hollie Maea: Environmentalists thought ethanol was a bad idea since day one.  It was nothing more than a handout from Bush to his Midwest supporters.


Which Bush?  I'm honestly wondering what your source is on this.

Don't get me wrong,  Dubya was the worst president in history.   Period, end of discussion on Bush.  But the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 - the first legislation to start requiring blends of ethanol top be used in the U.S., and specify annual minimums -  was an overwhelmingly Democrat initiative and strongly opposed by the oil industry.  (Which Dubya supposedly was in bed with.)  And Obama has greatly expanded this initiative with legislation requiring E85, E50, and E30 pumps installed nationwide by 2015.
 
Displayed 50 of 87 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report