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(Huffington Post)   That's an awfully nice profit we make off your energy demands, India. It'd be a shame if you built a solar farm and...WAIT, STOP. DON'T DO THAT. Oh that's it. Fark you guys   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 81
    More: Asinine, energy demand, solar energy, United States, trade policies, low carbon, United States Secretary of Energy, pity, climate change policy  
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3995 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Mar 2014 at 1:02 PM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-28 12:17:37 PM
Damn straight.  Buy American.
 
2014-03-28 12:23:47 PM
I'm unsure, outrage goes where?
 
2014-03-28 12:24:03 PM
It's just a trade argument about India being protective of their solar manufacturing at the expense of solar equipment manufactured outside of India.

It's the kind of dispute the WTO deals with every day.  Trying to push it as though the US is trying to stop India from using solar farms is just silly.
 
2014-03-28 12:26:36 PM
The Obama administration isn't trying to stop India from going solar, it's just doing it's job by fighting a rule in India that would freeze US solar manufacturers out of the marking, which actually IS a Violation of the trade accords that the WTO enforces
 
2014-03-28 12:30:48 PM
Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?
 
2014-03-28 12:34:47 PM

what_now: Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?


Because we're trying to get ahead on green energy market and corner the international market.
 
2014-03-28 12:36:41 PM

James!: what_now: Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?

Because we're trying to get ahead on green energy market and corner the international market.


I meant for other stuff. Like cheap shiat from Walmart
 
2014-03-28 12:39:33 PM

what_now: James!: what_now: Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?

Because we're trying to get ahead on green energy market and corner the international market.

I meant for other stuff. Like cheap shiat from Walmart


It'd look pretty hypocritical to take India to the WTO over protectionist tariffs if we were using them ourselves.

I believe that democrats have been largely anti-tariff for a while.
 
2014-03-28 12:40:35 PM

James!: It'd look pretty hypocritical to take India to the WTO over protectionist tariffs if we were using them ourselves.


Yeah, I'm looking for a whole scale isolationist approach, so I don't care what India does.
 
2014-03-28 12:47:13 PM
India's rules for locally made products for its solar power program "discriminate against U.S. exports" and break WTO rules. "We are determined to stand up for U.S. workers and businesses," he said

Where was this guy when the Chinese were burying Solyndra under an avalanche of below cost solar?
 
2014-03-28 12:47:53 PM

what_now: James!: It'd look pretty hypocritical to take India to the WTO over protectionist tariffs if we were using them ourselves.

Yeah, I'm looking for a whole scale isolationist approach, so I don't care what India does.


It's hard to make money if we're only selling our shiat to ourselves.
 
2014-03-28 01:07:15 PM

James!: what_now: Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?

Because we're trying to get ahead on green energy market and corner the international market.


That and manufacturing solar cells creates a lot of incredibly poisonous stuff that turns into some really, really bad pollution if not correctly handled.  US companies, at least in the semiconductor industry, have a long and well-verified history of containing said waste properly.  I think you can probably figure out India's history on semiconductor waste disposal from how they handle disposal of everything else.

Basically we'd be doing the environment a big favor by making sure that the manufacturing isn't done in-country.  Even the  Chinese making the cells would be environmentally preferable, and that's an incredibly low bar to stumble on.
 
2014-03-28 01:08:37 PM

what_now: Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?



Because Hawley and Smoot were both total dicks.
 
2014-03-28 01:11:43 PM

James!: It's just a trade argument about India being protective of their solar manufacturing at the expense of solar equipment manufactured outside of India.

It's the kind of dispute the WTO deals with every day.  Trying to push it as though the US is trying to stop India from using solar farms is just silly.


This. Every country tries to slip tariffs under the radar, and then get slapped by the WTO for doing it (if it conflicts with established trade agreements.)
 
2014-03-28 01:12:31 PM

Marcus Aurelius: India's rules for locally made products for its solar power program "discriminate against U.S. exports" and break WTO rules. "We are determined to stand up for U.S. workers and businesses," he said

Where was this guy when the Chinese were burying Solyndra under an avalanche of below cost solar?


Or any time "U.S. workers and businesses" went overseas to be cheap? No clue who this guy is, but he's a liar, that I know.
 
2014-03-28 01:13:06 PM

Marcus Aurelius: India's rules for locally made products for its solar power program "discriminate against U.S. exports" and break WTO rules. "We are determined to stand up for U.S. workers and businesses," he said

Where was this guy when the Chinese were burying Solyndra under an avalanche of below cost solar?


They knew the Chinese gives a fark about what they say.
 
2014-03-28 01:14:24 PM

what_now: Wait..why doesn't the US start having the same kind of protectionist tariffs that the Indians have?


Because the WTO exists precisely to stop countries from protectionism or getting into tit-for-tat tariff wars
 
2014-03-28 01:14:32 PM
Uh...  Subby?

We don't care if they go solar.  We just object to them saying that all the solar has to be made in India.
 
2014-03-28 01:15:41 PM

James!: It's just a trade argument about India being protective of their solar manufacturing at the expense of solar equipment manufactured outside of India.

It's the kind of dispute the WTO deals with every day.  Trying to push it as though the US is trying to stop India from using solar farms is just silly.


India has the right to push its own local economic interests,  I wish the US would do the same concerning imports.
 
2014-03-28 01:18:26 PM

Marcus Aurelius: India's rules for locally made products for its solar power program "discriminate against U.S. exports" and break WTO rules. "We are determined to stand up for U.S. workers and businesses," he said

Where was this guy when the Chinese were burying Solyndra under an avalanche of below cost solar?


most likely farking a dead horse on some other trade issue.

Also he could have been told, "Don't piss off the Chi-Comms because they buy our treasuries at an astounding rate."
 
2014-03-28 01:18:36 PM

James!: It's hard to make money if we're only selling our shiat to ourselves.


its not like the average joes in the US are making money selling shiat to the world either.
 
2014-03-28 01:19:04 PM

Warlordtrooper: James!: It's just a trade argument about India being protective of their solar manufacturing at the expense of solar equipment manufactured outside of India.

It's the kind of dispute the WTO deals with every day.  Trying to push it as though the US is trying to stop India from using solar farms is just silly.

India has the right to push its own local economic interests,  I wish the US would do the same concerning imports.


When you sign an agreement saying you are going to adhere to certain rule, you have to adhere to those rules. That is what is in dispute here. That India isn't adhering to the rules and is shutting out foreign products.
 
2014-03-28 01:19:28 PM
US Greenies: What's India doing?
US Government: shiathead here watched renewable production costs precipitously drop last week and ever since then, he's been trying to do the solar energy trick. The crazy fark thinks he can produce clean energy and shiat with the sun.
[slaps the solar panel out of India's hand]
US Government: Knock it off!
US Greenies: [to India] The force is strong with this one.
US Government: Dude, don't encourage him.

// in this sketch, John Boehner is Michael Rooker
// and I guess Paul Ryan is LaFours?
 
2014-03-28 01:20:56 PM

tlchwi02: James!: It's hard to make money if we're only selling our shiat to ourselves.

its not like the average joes in the US are making money selling shiat to the world either.


Some things aren't about average joes.
 
2014-03-28 01:24:24 PM

James!: Some things aren't about average joes


the problem is that nothing is about the average joe anymore. what happens to a consumer based economy when only 10% of the population can afford to consume anymore?
 
2014-03-28 01:25:23 PM

tlchwi02: James!: Some things aren't about average joes

the problem is that nothing is about the average joe anymore. what happens to a consumer based economy when only 10% of the population can afford to consume anymore?


What does your question have to do with solar panels in India?
 
2014-03-28 01:26:34 PM

Warlordtrooper: James!: It's just a trade argument about India being protective of their solar manufacturing at the expense of solar equipment manufactured outside of India.

It's the kind of dispute the WTO deals with every day.  Trying to push it as though the US is trying to stop India from using solar farms is just silly.

India has the right to push its own local economic interests,  I wish the US would do the same concerning imports.


The problem is such protectionism makes goods more expensive for consumers and distorts comparative advantage, an economic concept that increases net utility from economic activity. That doesn't mean that there are no short term benefits to protectionism (since the wider wealth inequalities between countries rather than different areas of the same country naturally lead to greater trade surplus/deficits, so limiting the scope of trade limits the change in relative wealth for more prosperous countries) but trade wars probably hurt slightly more than they help Americans.
 
2014-03-28 01:26:55 PM

Magorn: The Obama administration isn't trying to stop India from going solar, it's just doing it's job by fighting a rule in India that would freeze US solar manufacturers out of the marking, which actually IS a Violation of the trade accords that the WTO enforces



India can pretty much respond to our kavetching about this by saying "Cotton", dropping the mic and walking off stage.

Brazil has brought our complex cotton subsidies to the WTO and the WTO has ruled against us like 5 times or something. But we keep doing it anyway, because "'Merica".
 
2014-03-28 01:30:48 PM
Tiny brown fingers can build solar cell arrays faster and cheaper than bloaty white fingers. We are those bloaty white fingers and we have to put our feet down.
 
2014-03-28 01:37:05 PM
WTF is the US doing?  India can't keep the power on 24 hours a day yet.  I don't care if they use their own stuff.  The people complaining on the US side should lose their jobs.
 
2014-03-28 01:38:18 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: Tiny brown fingers can build solar cell arrays faster and cheaper than bloaty white fingers. We are those bloaty white fingers and we have to put our feet down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96iJsdGkl44
 
2014-03-28 01:39:13 PM

rev. dave: WTF is the US doing?  India can't keep the power on 24 hours a day yet.  I don't care if they use their own stuff.  The people complaining on the US side should lose their jobs.


People should lose their jobs for doing their jobs? Interesting...
 
2014-03-28 01:44:48 PM

James!: What does your question have to do with solar panels in India?


the wider free trade issue. india is trying to protect and promote its domestic workers. here in the US we've written them off entirely.
 
2014-03-28 01:48:38 PM

tlchwi02: James!: What does your question have to do with solar panels in India?

the wider free trade issue. india is trying to protect and promote its domestic workers. here in the US we've written them off entirely.


Yes, arguing that India should remove tariffs on American made solar panels is exactly writing off American workers.  I see it so clearly now.
 
2014-03-28 01:49:00 PM
Hopefully India doesn't get wind of Washington State's production incentive for renewable projects that benefit locally made products. Although I think the main difference is that it doesn't ban foreign or out-of-state products as part of the plan.
 
2014-03-28 02:01:27 PM
But then on the other hand the Government has to supply coal to the villages because they already burned up all the wood for many miles .  It was taking the women a day and a half to bring back three days cooking wood .
We wouldn't want to take away those costs from the Government .  Wait
 
2014-03-28 02:07:30 PM

James!: Yes, arguing that India should remove tariffs on American made solar panels is exactly writing off American workers. I see it so clearly now.


'free trade' as exemplified in this sort of WTO action is bad for american workers because it reinforces a system that puts our workers at a global disadvantage to countries who do not have the same labor laws, environmental laws and standard of living that we do. i applaud india's efforts to encourage their own workers and i wish the united states were following their lead instead of attacking them for it.
 
2014-03-28 02:13:01 PM

tlchwi02: James!: Yes, arguing that India should remove tariffs on American made solar panels is exactly writing off American workers. I see it so clearly now.

'free trade' as exemplified in this sort of WTO action is bad for american workers because it reinforces a system that puts our workers at a global disadvantage to countries who do not have the same labor laws, environmental laws and standard of living that we do. i applaud india's efforts to encourage their own workers and i wish the united states were following their lead instead of attacking them for it.


It's difficult to make money if we're only selling things to ourselves.
 
2014-03-28 02:19:22 PM

James!: It's difficult to make money if we're only selling things to ourselves


and its difficult to buy things if there aren't any good jobs left to make money. there has to be a reasonable middle ground where a country can do things like provide a shield to try and build a new industry (and provide good jobs) in a hostile international market- especially since its pretty obvious that not every member of the 'free' trade alliances is playing by the same set of rules anyway.
 
2014-03-28 02:22:50 PM

tlchwi02: James!: It's difficult to make money if we're only selling things to ourselves

and its difficult to buy things if there aren't any good jobs left to make money. there has to be a reasonable middle ground where a country can do things like provide a shield to try and build a new industry (and provide good jobs) in a hostile international market- especially since its pretty obvious that not every member of the 'free' trade alliances is playing by the same set of rules anyway.


Hence the WTO.  A mediating body to resolve trade disputes.
 
2014-03-28 02:25:28 PM
So outsourcing is only good when we send jobs there, not them sending jobs here?  Screw that non-sense.
 
2014-03-28 02:28:27 PM

max_pooper: People should lose their jobs for doing their jobs? Interesting...


let's add the DEA to that list...
 
2014-03-28 02:30:30 PM

James!: Hence the WTO. A mediating body to resolve trade disputes.


I would argue that the WTO is hardly a fair and impartial mediator since their entire mission statement/goal is unfettered free trade. I think the WTO itself and the underlying assumption of 'free trade=always best' is flawed.
 
2014-03-28 02:37:42 PM
The US makes a lot of solar products?  I thought most of the US solar manufacturers had closed their US plants and moved them to China?
 
2014-03-28 02:39:27 PM

tlchwi02: James!: Hence the WTO. A mediating body to resolve trade disputes.

I would argue that the WTO is hardly a fair and impartial mediator since their entire mission statement/goal is unfettered free trade. I think the WTO itself and the underlying assumption of 'free trade=always best' is flawed.


Their mission statement is not "unfettered free trade".
 
2014-03-28 02:43:12 PM

James!: Their mission statement is not "unfettered free trade".


the very first bullet point in their mission statement is:

- negotiating the reduction or elimination of obstacles to trade (import tariffs, other barriers to trade) and agreeing on rules governing the conduct of international trade (e.g. antidumping, subsidies, product standards, etc.)

so its hard to argue that they don't have an agenda.
 
2014-03-28 02:47:12 PM

tlchwi02: James!: Their mission statement is not "unfettered free trade".

the very first bullet point in their mission statement is:

- negotiating the reduction or elimination of obstacles to trade (import tariffs, other barriers to trade) and agreeing on rules governing the conduct of international trade (e.g. antidumping, subsidies, product standards, etc.)

so its hard to argue that they don't have an agenda.


Of course they have an agenda... Who would argue that they didn't?  What part of that bullet makes you think their agenda is "unfettered free trade"?
 
2014-03-28 02:50:15 PM

tlchwi02: I would argue that the WTO is hardly a fair and impartial mediator since their entire mission statement/goal is unfettered free trade. I think the WTO itself and the underlying assumption of 'free trade=always best' is flawed.


Especially when your dealing with a currency that is printed from nothing then lended out at interest so there is never enough physical money to pay the perpetual debt.
 
2014-03-28 02:52:28 PM

Angela Lansbury's Merkin: The US makes a lot of solar products?  I thought most of the US solar manufacturers had closed their US plants and moved them to China?


While the data is a little old - in less than a decade, we went from the #2 manufacturer to 6th. Over the same period of time, China's production has skyrocketed.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2014-03-28 02:56:56 PM

James!: Of course they have an agenda... Who would argue that they didn't? What part of that bullet makes you think their agenda is "unfettered free trade"?


the part where their mission statement says that their goal is to eleminate obstacles to trade? wouldn't 'unfettered free trade' be an eleminiation of all obstacles to trade? what do you interpret that directive to be?

and my broader point is that the WTO is not around just to settle trade disputes- its around to settle trade disputes in a way that always favors the elemination of obstacles to trade. enact a tarrif to try and create desperately needed jobs at home? doesn't matter, blocking free trade. trying to protect a domestic industry from another country who illegally but deniably stole the designs your domestic companies spent billions developing, then manufactured them at a loss and are dumping on your home market? doesn't matter, blocking free trade.
 
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