If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Salon)   A panel of judges rules that Texas laws shutting down all but six clinics for women in the state "on its face does not impose an undue burden on the life and health of a woman"   (salon.com) divider line 170
    More: Fail, undue burden, United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, Texas, health crisis, speed limits, chemical abortion, appeals courts, reproductive rights  
•       •       •

596 clicks; posted to Politics » on 28 Mar 2014 at 8:58 AM (21 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



170 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2014-03-28 05:42:38 PM

Phinn: Dansker: Phinn: Dansker: Phinn:
Your sperm aren't organisms, any more than your kidney is.  What you do with your sperm is your business, and probably best kept private.

They are discrete, self-organized entities, so by your definition they're people. And they are better at surviving outside a human body than most embryoblasts.

By self-organized, I mean an organism.  Biology has a set of meaningful criteria for what an organism is.  There are single-celled organisms, but sperm cells are not among them.

By which criterium do they fail? They are mobile, carbon based life forms. Just because they're haploid, doesn't mean they're not organisms.

They're not capable of growth, development


Yes, they are.
img.photobucket.com

or reproduction (which sounds odd, since they are reproduction-specialty cells within some other organism).

A blastocyst is incapable of reproduction, ergo it's not a person.
 
2014-03-28 05:48:55 PM

Dansker: Phinn: Dansker: Phinn: Dansker: Phinn:
Your sperm aren't organisms, any more than your kidney is.  What you do with your sperm is your business, and probably best kept private.

They are discrete, self-organized entities, so by your definition they're people. And they are better at surviving outside a human body than most embryoblasts.

By self-organized, I mean an organism.  Biology has a set of meaningful criteria for what an organism is.  There are single-celled organisms, but sperm cells are not among them.

By which criterium do they fail? They are mobile, carbon based life forms. Just because they're haploid, doesn't mean they're not organisms.

They're not capable of growth, development

Yes, they are.
[img.photobucket.com image 850x417]

or reproduction (which sounds odd, since they are reproduction-specialty cells within some other organism).

A blastocyst is incapable of reproduction, ergo it's not a person.


Someone used the built in Powerpoint clip art.
 
2014-03-28 06:06:23 PM

Phinn: On its own, even with ample nutrition and protection from the elements, it will always only ever be a sperm cell.


The same is true for a person.
 
2014-03-28 07:43:28 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: bobothemagnificent: This is why I think abortion shouldn't be a national issue or even a state issue, but a local issue.  The divide on this issue is too deep and very even.  It's also impossible to build a consensus.  Libtrolls won't go for it, and social conservatives won't agree to anything less than a total or near total ban. If it's a completely local issue, then the predominant opinion of the area would make the rules and those who support it get it in their area and those who don't want it get that in their area.  The level of biatching drops significantly, I have less of a headache and a much more pleasant attitude towards humanity in general.  A nation wide policy, or even a state wide policy, will not work on this issue.

Violates the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution, so no dice. A constitutional amendment is about the least likely outcome on the issue.


Not to mention he's apparently open to the acceptability of towns where women who have abortions can be burned at the stake or stoned to death. Local issue, after all. That's how they roll in Zygote City.

Also, "Sanctity of the Zygote!" sounds like a good slogan for a troll sign at an anti-abortion rally.
 
2014-03-28 08:15:37 PM

jigger:
Someone used the built in Powerpoint clip art.


There's jizz themed clip art in your Powerpoint? Where do you work?
 
2014-03-29 12:20:07 AM

bigsteve3OOO: DrBenway: Almost Everybody Poops: bigsteve3OOO: Oh man this is awesome. The fundies are using your stuff against you LOL at you.

You really seem to get off on suppressing women's rights.

Usually he comes off as just really stupid. Today, though, he seems to be aspiring for "stupid asshole" territory. That's thinking big.

Got to mix it up now and then.  I do try, thanks for noticing the subtle differences.  I am an artist.


You're like that kid who huddles in the corner of the lunch room, sniffing his own farts and giggling.
 
2014-03-29 02:46:02 AM
Hey guys, thanks for getting sidelined by the kids who like to play with their own poops.
 
2014-03-29 02:55:30 AM

Kittypie070: Hey guys, thanks for getting sidelined by the kids who like to play with their own poops.


Yeah, I was the Subby, and the thread got trolled to death pretty quickly.
 
2014-03-29 04:56:48 AM

Alphax: Kittypie070: Hey guys, thanks for getting sidelined by the kids who like to play with their own poops.

Yeah, I was the Subby, and the thread got trolled to death pretty quickly.


:(

I wish people would just stop talking to the keyboard wielding toilets around here.
 
2014-03-29 07:05:58 AM

Kittypie070: Alphax: Kittypie070: Hey guys, thanks for getting sidelined by the kids who like to play with their own poops.

Yeah, I was the Subby, and the thread got trolled to death pretty quickly.

:(

I wish people would just stop talking to the keyboard wielding toilets around here.


I wish you would say more interesting things.
 
2014-03-29 07:16:00 AM

Dansker: Phinn: On its own, even with ample nutrition and protection from the elements, it will always only ever be a sperm cell.

The same is true for a person.


You have ethical duties toward a person, but not toward a cell. I don't understand what it is you don't understand.

I think one of the problems you're having is the idea of owing duties only to people for being conscious, or however you put it earlier. That's not exactly accurate. People who are asleep or comatose are not conscious. But we owe them ethical duties (starting with Don't Kill) because we presume that they are going to develop consciousness in the FUTURE.

A person who is alive but brain dead has no such future, which is what makes killing such a person acceptable (or even preferable or mandatory). We presume everyone will be conscious until conclusively proven otherwise.

A sperm cell will never develop consciousness. This is known with certainty. It must be fused with another cell to become a new entity in order to do so. Neither the sperm cell nor egg from which each of us came was us. That fusion created the organism that literally is you -- it developed into the you of today.
 
2014-03-29 07:35:05 AM

Kittypie070: Hey guys, thanks for getting sidelined by the kids who like to play with their own poops.


Hey, when you're in the bathtub and don't have a boat or a rubber duckie, sometimes you gotta make your own toys.
 
2014-03-29 09:09:07 AM
www.colourbox.com

This is a picture of a house.
 
2014-03-29 10:03:47 AM

Phinn: Dansker: Phinn: On its own, even with ample nutrition and protection from the elements, it will always only ever be a sperm cell.

The same is true for a person.

You have ethical duties toward a person, but not toward a cell. I don't understand what it is you don't understand.

I think one of the problems you're having is the idea of owing duties only to people for being conscious, or however you put it earlier.


What I said was you have to have at least a functioning central nervous system to be a person. Your brain doesn't stop working just because you sleep or lose consciousness.

A person who is alive but brain dead has no such future, which is what makes killing such a person acceptable (or even preferable or mandatory).

And a clump of cells that doesn't have a brain is not a person, which is what makes removing such a clump of cells acceptable, so we almost agree.
 
2014-03-29 11:59:14 AM

Dansker: Phinn: Dansker: Phinn: On its own, even with ample nutrition and protection from the elements, it will always only ever be a sperm cell.

The same is true for a person.

You have ethical duties toward a person, but not toward a cell. I don't understand what it is you don't understand.

I think one of the problems you're having is the idea of owing duties only to people for being conscious, or however you put it earlier.

What I said was you have to have at least a functioning central nervous system to be a person. Your brain doesn't stop working just because you sleep or lose consciousness.

A person who is alive but brain dead has no such future, which is what makes killing such a person acceptable (or even preferable or mandatory).

And a clump of cells that doesn't have a brain is not a person, which is what makes removing such a clump of cells acceptable, so we almost agree.


The cerebral hemispheres are formed in the fifth week. That's about the time many women first detect their pregnancies due to absent menstruation. The restriction in Texas that the Left is so up in arms about permits abortion up to 20 weeks, which is about the mid-way point of gestation. Even if we extend the CNS development threshold out to 10 weeks, there isn't any US prohibition on abortion that early, I believe.

In any event, the "development of a central nervous system" isn't a clear moment and therefore arbitrary. It's a shorthand way of summarizing millions of developmental processes.

I still don't understand how anyone can argue that a unique, human individual doesn't exist as of the moment it LITERALLY exists as a single, coherent organism. It's a tautology. Self-evident once you understand the basic mechanism of fertilization. Neither of the component parts can be rationally described as the organism that constitutes an individual, but the fertilized egg is. Its growth and development from that moment on is one long continuous chain of change.

When you set aside the electoral politics and just look at the biological facts, that fertilized egg is the individual entity that constitutes a human being.
 
2014-03-29 12:24:28 PM

Phinn: The cerebral hemispheres are formed in the fifth week.


That's not at fertilization, which is when you said the cells become a person.

In any event, the "development of a central nervous system" isn't a clear moment and therefore arbitrary.

Inexact is not equal to arbitrary.

I still don't understand how anyone can argue that a unique, human individual doesn't exist as of the moment it LITERALLY exists as a single, coherent organism.

Our disagreement is simple to understand: I don't agree that two cells are the same as a person, regardless of their potential.
But at least you learned a few new things in this thread. If you manager to retain that new knowledge, it has not been a complete waste.
 
2014-03-29 01:25:47 PM

Dansker: Phinn: The cerebral hemispheres are formed in the fifth week.

That's not at fertilization, which is when you said the cells become a person.


I know.  I was responding to your proposition about CNS development being the operative condition for humanity, or personhood, or whatever label the Left is using this week.  Even if the CNS were the controlling factor, I was saying, it would support justifying the prohibition of abortions as early as 5 weeks, which is 15 weeks earlier than this Texas law prohibits them.

As for the rest of your comments, you have now earned the farkie of "Pedantic Eurotard."
 
2014-03-29 01:35:38 PM

Phinn: Dansker: Phinn: The cerebral hemispheres are formed in the fifth week.

That's not at fertilization, which is when you said the cells become a person.

I know.  I was responding to your proposition about CNS development being the operative condition for humanity, or personhood, or whatever label the Left is using this week.  Even if the CNS were the controlling factor, I was saying, it would support justifying the prohibition of abortions as early as 5 weeks, which is 15 weeks earlier than this Texas law prohibits them.

As for the rest of your comments, you have now earned the farkie of "Pedantic Eurotard."


I love how you're calling him pedantic while you're ignoring decades of work in bioethics in favor of dictionary definitions.
 
2014-03-29 02:45:07 PM

Phinn: I was responding to your proposition about CNS developmen being the operative condition for humanity, or personhood,


I didn't say "development", I said that having a functioning central nervous system is my lowest requirement for calling something a "person".

As for the rest of your comments, you have now earned the farkie of "Pedantic Eurotard."

I earned that years ago, from better people than you.
But if you had paid attention to my pedantry, you could have learned that British energy, telecom, and transportation are not nationalized, and that spermcells and eggs both grow and develop from gonozytes.
Also, Marx wanted a national bank with exclusive monopoly on credit and lending, and the London Underground is not a political movement.
 
2014-03-29 08:45:10 PM
I enjoyed reading through this thread, last 2 days of work.  It's always fun watching somebody try to argue that their logic is superior by ignoring the arguments and points of others. 

All I have else to add, is that while I'd love to have kids of my own, I'd rip out my own womb and throw it on the House steps before I allowed people to tell me that I am required to bring an embryo to term.  It's my farking choice.  I know when I'm ready, nobody else does.

And I'm not your god damned brood mare.
 
Displayed 20 of 170 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report