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(CNN)   Only 1 out of every 68 children in the U.S. is getting vaccinated   (cnn.com ) divider line 157
    More: Scary, U.S., spectrum disorders, developmental disorder  
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11062 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Mar 2014 at 5:56 PM (1 year ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



157 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2014-03-27 04:36:04 PM  
Idiots. Every single one of those parents should be jailed for child endangerment.
 
2014-03-27 04:41:59 PM  
I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.
 
2014-03-27 04:44:49 PM  
NO NO NO NO NO SUBMITTER. That is COMPLETELY incorrect.

1 in 65 children who get vaccinated have autism.

The rest obviously weren't vaccinated in the first place so obviously that other 1 in 3 won't have autism.
 
2014-03-27 04:48:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.


Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?
 
2014-03-27 05:02:52 PM  

raerae1980: Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?


As I understand it, the current research is focusing on neurological development and growth in utero, as studies have identified increased pre-frontal neuronal density as one of the common factors in children and adults who are on the Autism spectrum.

So much of the anti-vaccination movement, however, boils down to their child (or the person themselves) being a victim of something they can't even understand. If you want to lose faith in humanity, click on over to the Age Of Autism blog, and read the way some of these idiots talk about their own children. They actually believe their child would have been better off dead.
 
2014-03-27 05:04:22 PM  

raerae1980: hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.

Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?


Hey now.  No dodging your Boobies.  You swallowed that hook ;-)
 
2014-03-27 05:05:39 PM  

Diogenes: raerae1980: hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.

Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?

Hey now.  No dodging your Boobies.  You swallowed that hook ;-)


Agreed. It's a full on motorboating now.
 
2014-03-27 05:09:59 PM  
Oh, well done. Very well done.

in other news, I have a simple carrot-and-stick solution to this problem:

1. The state has a clear vested interest in public health. if there is an epidemic, productivity drops, taxes go away, and the state takes on added expenses. If the epidemic is bad enough, it damages public order. Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.

2. The state builds and maintains its own schools and its own roads. These are public property.

3. Neither schooling nor roads are rights. Schooling may be obligatory, but public school is a privilege, as demonstrated by routine suspensions and expulsions.

4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated. 

It's simple: you can't drink and drive. You can't send your kids to school with guns. Likewise, you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

But you ARE still free to not vaccinate. You just won't like it.
 
2014-03-27 05:12:47 PM  
Golf clap for the headline, subby!
 
2014-03-27 05:23:09 PM  

Diogenes: raerae1980: hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.

Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?

Hey now.  No dodging your Boobies.  You swallowed that hook ;-)


Eh, I've swallowed worst.
 
2014-03-27 05:34:27 PM  

raerae1980: Diogenes: raerae1980: hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.

Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?

Hey now.  No dodging your Boobies.  You swallowed that hook ;-)

Eh, I've swallowed worst.


I swallowed your last post.
 
2014-03-27 05:35:33 PM  
Damn. That's what I get for trying to poke the filter with a stick.

When did that change?
 
2014-03-27 05:38:08 PM  

fusillade762: Damn. That's what I get for trying to poke the filter with a stick.

When did that change?


Lol
 
2014-03-27 05:57:44 PM  
That's okay, the world is overpopulated
 
2014-03-27 06:01:51 PM  
Subby,

thumbs.ifood.tv

...is very unhappy with you right now.

/You may need a spanking
 
2014-03-27 06:03:41 PM  

fusillade762: Damn. That's what I get for trying to poke the filter with a stick.

When did that change?


It's always been that way.
/the trick is to make it flow with the filter.
//cute header, subby!
 
2014-03-27 06:04:37 PM  
We used to call them hyper.
 
2014-03-27 06:05:00 PM  

hardinparamedic: raerae1980: Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?

As I understand it, the current research is focusing on neurological development and growth in utero, as studies have identified increased pre-frontal neuronal density as one of the common factors in children and adults who are on the Autism spectrum.

So much of the anti-vaccination movement, however, boils down to their child (or the person themselves) being a victim of something they can't even understand. If you want to lose faith in humanity, click on over to the Age Of Autism blog, and read the way some of these idiots talk about their own children. They actually believe their child would have been better off dead.


Can't they just keep the front door unlocked and the problem solves itself?
 
2014-03-27 06:07:01 PM  
CSB:

My sister told me about her friends that had a child they were convinced was mildly autistic.  He'd get upset at busy malls, get mad at meals, and get so upset he'd knock his head on the floor.  I told her that he wasn't autistic, he was normal and their parents needed to discipline the child.  Turns out they started to discipline him and lo and behold, he acted better.
 
2014-03-27 06:08:45 PM  
I'm fine with people not vaccinating their kids, as long as they're fine with us bringing back medieval leper colonies and us forcing them to live there.
 
2014-03-27 06:12:15 PM  
slowclap.jpg
 
2014-03-27 06:14:17 PM  
They keep lowering the bar on what autism means, don't they.
 
2014-03-27 06:16:16 PM  
Nice one, subby.
 
2014-03-27 06:17:15 PM  
dat headline
 
2014-03-27 06:20:31 PM  

whistleridge: Oh, well done. Very well done.

in other news, I have a simple carrot-and-stick solution to this problem:

1. The state has a clear vested interest in public health. if there is an epidemic, productivity drops, taxes go away, and the state takes on added expenses. If the epidemic is bad enough, it damages public order. Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.

2. The state builds and maintains its own schools and its own roads. These are public property.

3. Neither schooling nor roads are rights. Schooling may be obligatory, but public school is a privilege, as demonstrated by routine suspensions and expulsions.

4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated. 

It's simple: you can't drink and drive. You can't send your kids to school with guns. Likewise, you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

But you ARE still free to not vaccinate. You just won't like it.


People have totally forgotten about the raging polio epidemics that occurred that totally shut down cities.  No one went to school, no one went to work, government services were shut down...  Everybody just stayed in their homes for a few WEEKS hoping that the epidemic would subside.
 
2014-03-27 06:22:24 PM  
I love what you did there, subs.
 
2014-03-27 06:22:39 PM  
Subby definitely got me to click the link, but not before I let out a loud, involuntary "What the fark...!!?"
 
2014-03-27 06:23:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.


What about children of the anti-vaxxers  coming down being born with autism?
 
2014-03-27 06:24:47 PM  

Shazam999: CSB:

My sister told me about her friends that had a child they were convinced was mildly autistic.  He'd get upset at busy malls, get mad at meals, and get so upset he'd knock his head on the floor.  I told her that he wasn't autistic, he was normal and their parents needed to discipline the child.  Turns out they started to discipline him and lo and behold, he acted better.


People often look to an external locus of control to explain why they suck ass at stuff.

/i blame white folk
 
2014-03-27 06:26:02 PM  
If my dog is required to have a rabies shot kids should be required to have their shots as well.
 
2014-03-27 06:26:49 PM  
A condition that may be legitimate for a small fraction of the population is blown out of proportion by worried parents that their snowflakes are not perfect and drug companies making money what?
 
2014-03-27 06:27:59 PM  
FTA- there's been a 30% increase  in just the last two years in the prevalence of autism.   Sounds like it's contagious! (After all, if you're born with it or acquire it at age 1 with your vaccinations, the prevalence in children couldn't possibly go up 30% in just two years, could it?)

/This is why you should never read about things having to do with epidemiology or statistics from CNN.  They post crap like "1 in 68 children now has autism, a 30% increase from 1 in 88 two years ago."  Dut dut dunhh!  The "30% increase in 2 years" statement is meaningless.  Why even report it when it's obvious the two things being compared are not similar observations- far more likely is a definition of "autism spectrum disorder" changed, sampling methods changed, reporting requirements changed, what have you.  I despair for our innumerate society.
 
2014-03-27 06:34:29 PM  
Great, McCarthyism on the rise again.

/farking AWtism
 
2014-03-27 06:34:37 PM  
The general takeaway I have from viewing comments tabs across the web: many people have a pre-formed opinion on what autism is and isn't, and no arguing changes it. That's one of the precious few facts I've been able to ascertain about the condition so far. That, and that chelation therapy is a scam that has a chance at killing your kid, autism or no. I also discovered that the Danes had a comprehensive national study that found no correlation between vaccinations and autism rates, but that few people have even heard of it. Also, even though Andrew Wakefield (the guy who pretty much established the "link" between autism and vaccinations, specifically the MMR scheduled ones) has been discredited and censured, he still maintains (note I don't say believes) his innocence, and claims that big Pharma and the government are smearing him to hide the truth! I believe he still accepts donations to help with his legal bills etc. Other than that? I know fark all about what's causing it and how screwed homo sapiens sapiens may soon be.
 
2014-03-27 06:35:58 PM  
I lol'ed.
 
2014-03-27 06:37:14 PM  

JohnnyApocalypse: The general takeaway I have from viewing comments tabs across the web: many people have a pre-formed opinion on what autism is and isn't, and no arguing changes it. That's one of the precious few facts I've been able to ascertain about the condition so far. That, and that chelation therapy is a scam that has a chance at killing your kid, autism or no. I also discovered that the Danes had a comprehensive national study that found no correlation between vaccinations and autism rates, but that few people have even heard of it. Also, even though Andrew Wakefield (the guy who pretty much established the "link" between autism and vaccinations, specifically the MMR scheduled ones) has been discredited and censured, he still maintains (note I don't say believes) his innocence, and claims that big Pharma and the government are smearing him to hide the truth! I believe he still accepts donations to help with his legal bills etc. Other than that? I know fark all about what's causing it and how screwed homo sapiens sapiens may soon be.


also. pre-empting [citation_needed.jpg]  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124634/
 
2014-03-27 06:37:56 PM  
If autism was caused by vaccinations and more specifically thermarasol or whatever it's called every kid vaccinated in the 60s and 70s would have been exposed to it before they removed it from vaccinations. As a child born in the 70s I don't recall any autistic kids. We may have had kids called hyperactive but no where near the numbers the anti vax folks would need to support their BS
 
2014-03-27 06:40:40 PM  
I suspect autism and a lot of other disorders are on the rise because of couples waiting until they are over 30 to start families. A man's sperm and a woman's eggs are at their best while we are in our 20s. After that, the odds that they will be damaged go way up.
 
2014-03-27 06:42:32 PM  
oh the places youll troll, subby.
 
2014-03-27 06:42:51 PM  
Nice job, subby. This is going to be a hilarious thread full of confusion due to many cases of  DRTFArtileritis (no vaccine for that either)
31.media.tumblr.com
 
2014-03-27 06:45:41 PM  
On the issue of "diagnosing" Autism Spectrum Disorder:

A note to all medical personnel and psychiatric quacks:
Kids who are merely socially awkward, or have never been properly disciplined by their parents, ARE NOT AUTISTIC, YOU FREAKING RETARDS!

Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Sincerely,
Uncle of an Autistic child
 
2014-03-27 06:47:32 PM  

hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.


You actually believe all of this is attributable to the Jenny McCarthys of the world and your MD from UG?

Hardly.

And I'll guarantee you that the difference is not attributable to the Religious Right, the Tea Party, Republicans or any of that usual brand of derp.
 
2014-03-27 06:47:50 PM  

ParallelUniverseParking: Nice job, subby. This is going to be a hilarious thread full of confusion due to many cases of  DRTFArtileritis (no vaccine for that either)


Of which I am totally guilt of B-)
 
2014-03-27 06:50:45 PM  

Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!


Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?
 
2014-03-27 06:50:49 PM  

ParallelUniverseParking: Nice job, subby. This is going to be a hilarious thread full of confusion due to many cases of  DRTFArtileritis


Between that and the Michelle Obama thread, this has turned into a trollmitter kinda day.  Not complaining.
 
2014-03-27 06:50:59 PM  
"1 in 68 U.S. children has autism"
No. No they don't.

I dare say that if there was a law that required autistic children to be euthanized there would a lot more engaged parents with well adjusted/behaved kids.

I suggest we start with the "Indigo" children first.
 
2014-03-27 06:52:46 PM  

just_intonation: You actually believe all of this is attributable to the Jenny McCarthys of the world and your MD from UG?


No. I believe that anti-vaccination is older than the internet, and even the telegraph. What I do know is that the Jenny McCarthies of the world are the public face of the anti-vaccination movement, and the face of one of the most prevalent anti-science movements in the world at this current time.

just_intonation: And I'll guarantee you that the difference is not attributable to the Religious Right, the Tea Party, Republicans or any of that usual brand of derp.


Anti-vaccination is a derp which is truly bipartisan.
 
2014-03-27 06:53:42 PM  

whistleridge: Oh, well done. Very well done.

in other news, I have a simple carrot-and-stick solution to this problem:

1. The state has a clear vested interest in public health. if there is an epidemic, productivity drops, taxes go away, and the state takes on added expenses. If the epidemic is bad enough, it damages public order. Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.

2. The state builds and maintains its own schools and its own roads. These are public property.

3. Neither schooling nor roads are rights. Schooling may be obligatory, but public school is a privilege, as demonstrated by routine suspensions and expulsions.

4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated. 

It's simple: you can't drink and drive. You can't send your kids to school with guns. Likewise, you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

But you ARE still free to not vaccinate. You just won't like it.


Yeah, sure.  Your argument falls completely apart for those families who are on the gubmint teat, or here illegally (or both).  There's no wallet to hit, except OURS.

Now, to your point 4) above -- since the State is still being expected to provide education for kids of illegals (e.g. California) -- how about we expand that to say 'if you're not a citizen, and you have about 30 of those 68 kids yourself -- they can't come to school until they are vaccinated.  That hits them in the wallet a lot more.
 
2014-03-27 06:58:55 PM  
Good. We need a new plague to wipe out most of the human race, since war isn't going to do it at this rate.
 
2014-03-27 06:59:20 PM  
They could argue disparate impact if you craft as law that is aimed at excluding Latinos without specifically saying it is exclusionary on its face.

You have a good chance of excluding Asians and Whites in the public interest, though.
 
2014-03-27 06:59:23 PM  

whistleridge: Oh, well done. Very well done.

in other news, I have a simple carrot-and-stick solution to this problem:

1. The state has a clear vested interest in public health. if there is an epidemic, productivity drops, taxes go away, and the state takes on added expenses. If the epidemic is bad enough, it damages public order. Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.

2. The state builds and maintains its own schools and its own roads. These are public property.

3. Neither schooling nor roads are rights. Schooling may be obligatory, but public school is a privilege, as demonstrated by routine suspensions and expulsions.

4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated.

It's simple: you can't shouldn't drink and drive. You can't shouldn't send your kids to school with guns. Likewise, you can't shouldn't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't shouldn't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

But you ARE still free to not vaccinate. You just won't like it.


FTFY

It is a known fact that those people CAN do that, it is just wrong to do so.
 
2014-03-27 06:59:26 PM  
Superb headline, Subby.

Simple, yet effective. HOTY candidate? I guess it's all in the context...
 
2014-03-27 07:00:02 PM  

blender61: "1 in 68 U.S. children has autism"
No. No they don't.

I dare say that if there was a law that required autistic children to be euthanized there would a lot more engaged parents with well adjusted/behaved kids.

I suggest we start with the "Indigo" children first.


I've been saying this for years (along with people who are allergic to everything).
 
2014-03-27 07:00:05 PM  
I laughed out loud at that one. farking bravo.
 
2014-03-27 07:01:35 PM  

whistleridge: Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.


Also, the ends justify the means. So whenever a disease is too expensive, deny care. Also, if there are risks for the greater good, hide those risks, lie about them, and then force the citizens to comply. Got to love the modern version of Freedom. If the vaccines worked, why would those with the vaccines be so worried? Oh, are they buying into herd immunity and all sorts of excuses?
 
2014-03-27 07:02:42 PM  

Shazam999: People have totally forgotten about the raging polio epidemics that occurred that totally shut down cities


People also forget the only route that polio is spread is feces being ingested. Look it up. Maybe if there wasnt a tolerable amount of poop in food and on unwashed hands...
 
2014-03-27 07:02:52 PM  

raerae1980: Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?


I heard the same thing on NPR on the way home.  Now they just have to prove that all the neurotoxins in our environment cause the brain malformation.
 
2014-03-27 07:03:51 PM  

blender61: I dare say that if there was a law that required autistic children to be euthanized


Hitler, Stalin and Mao agree.
 
2014-03-27 07:04:33 PM  

ebenbane: That's okay, the world is overpopulated


So more autism spectrum disorders which do not effect life expectancy is better how?
 
2014-03-27 07:06:07 PM  

hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?


The part where kids outside of his family are considered autistic as well.

/the only correct diagnosis is MY diagnosis
 
2014-03-27 07:08:19 PM  
Wow. I linked that from an anti-vax site.

Sorry. These are more accurate.
www.poliosurvivorsnetwork.org.uk
www.cdc.gov
 
2014-03-27 07:08:51 PM  

hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?


You should not expect anyone here to read the DSM - they are just armchair interneters that think this is all fun and games until one of their kids or relatives are diagnosed with an ASD.
 
2014-03-27 07:09:17 PM  
HairyNevus: What about children of the anti-vaxxers  coming down being born with autism?

img.fark.net
 
2014-03-27 07:09:41 PM  
If that is one of every 68 who should be vaccinated, then it is time for Canada and Mexico to close the borders. Naturally, in any given year, only a few percent would be up for new or booster shots.

I'm not criticizing the job the US has done. You should see the trucks lined up waiting to get through customs. THERE ARE NO TARIFFS TO SPEAK OF, AND YET IT TAKES HOURS TO GET A TRUCK ACROSS THE BORDER.

They are more worried about competition from NAFTA and FTA partners than they are about ebola or other plagues. Which would cost ten thousand times more.

It's like Republicans who are more worried that somewhere somebody might vote twice than they are about the election machinery being high-jacked by a ten year old with the result that the Angry Birds get enough Senate seats to govern the country. (Then again, all the election software and hardware is owned by Republicans, so they can just chuck out ALL of the votes and decide who is elected in a hotel room at 3:00 AM).
 
2014-03-27 07:11:52 PM  
Subby, you magnificent bastard!
 
2014-03-27 07:11:59 PM  

zeio: Shazam999: People have totally forgotten about the raging polio epidemics that occurred that totally shut down cities

People also forget the only route that polio is spread is feces being ingested. Look it up. Maybe if there wasnt a tolerable amount of poop in food and on unwashed hands...


It just meant that your grandma did ATM.
 
2014-03-27 07:12:57 PM  
There are some good things about vaccinations, and bad things, and some very bad things. Do the research, ask questions from credible resources and decide for yourself. Opinions are like a**holes, almost everybody has one, but not all of em work. For the record, I have two un-vaccinated kids, both alive, neither has autism, and as far as I know have not contracted any serious diseases. They both got whooping cough (pertussis), and survived it. They gave it to me and their mother and we are vaccinated, and survived it. I'm sure some of the meanies out there will be happy to hear we were "infected".

Try not to hate too much, just because not everybody chooses to believe everything their told, or do it the way you think it should be done.
 
2014-03-27 07:13:00 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?

The part where kids outside of his family are considered autistic as well.

/the only correct diagnosis is MY diagnosis


You are autistic?
 
2014-03-27 07:13:13 PM  

hardinparamedic: That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.


Even more amusing there is zero evidence that Autism is a 'disease'
 
2014-03-27 07:13:29 PM  

just_intonation: whistleridge: Oh, well done. Very well done.

in other news, I have a simple carrot-and-stick solution to this problem:

1. The state has a clear vested interest in public health. if there is an epidemic, productivity drops, taxes go away, and the state takes on added expenses. If the epidemic is bad enough, it damages public order. Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.

2. The state builds and maintains its own schools and its own roads. These are public property.

3. Neither schooling nor roads are rights. Schooling may be obligatory, but public school is a privilege, as demonstrated by routine suspensions and expulsions.

4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated. 

It's simple: you can't drink and drive. You can't send your kids to school with guns. Likewise, you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

But you ARE still free to not vaccinate. You just won't like it.

Yeah, sure.  Your argument falls completely apart for those families who are on the gubmint teat, or here illegally (or both).  There's no wallet to hit, except OURS.

Now, to your point 4) above -- since the State is still being expected to provide education for kids of illegals (e.g. California) -- how about we expand that to say 'if you're not a citizen, and you have about 30 of those 68 kids yourself -- they can't come to school until they are vaccinated.  That hits them in the wallet a lot more.


Let's play a game. It's called 'who can be the stupidest asshole in the thread'.

Oh hey, look: you won! Congratulations! We can all tell you worked hard at it.

News flash: poor people get vaccines for free through public health programs. And they actually do it, because they can't afford to miss work because.

The only group that is driving the anti-vaccine movement are middle-to-upper middle class whites, who almost universally lean right and spend too much time at church. They're self-centered idiots, who refuse to look at actual facts. Kind of like your post above.

Thank you for playing though.
 
2014-03-27 07:15:17 PM  

whistleridge: The only group that is driving the anti-vaccine movement are middle-to-upper middle class whites, who almost universally lean right and spend too much time at church. They're self-centered idiots, who refuse to look at actual facts. Kind of like your post above.


Hmm, all the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely liberal.  And don't make much money.
 
2014-03-27 07:16:29 PM  
hardinparamedic: just_intonation: You actually believe all of this is attributable to the Jenny McCarthys of the world and your MD from UG?

No. I believe that anti-vaccination is older than the internet, and even the telegraph. What I do know is that the Jenny McCarthies of the world are the public face of the anti-vaccination movement, and the face of one of the most prevalent anti-science movements in the world at this current time.


Well, at least we agree on that.  It is* older than the Internet, and will continue unabated for a number of reasons -- not the least of which are the Jenny McCarthys of the world.

just_intonation: And I'll guarantee you that the difference is not attributable to the Religious Right, the Tea Party, Republicans or any of that usual brand of derp.

Anti-vaccination is a derp which is truly bipartisan.


One of the many failures of the two-party system, but that's a topic for the Politics tab, and for another time when I don't have to run away from the keyboard to keep an appointment.
 
2014-03-27 07:19:55 PM  
CNN: "...The study found nearly half of children with an autism spectrum disorder have average or above-average intellectual ability -- an IQ above 85 -- compared with one-third of children a decade ago...."

Wait, what?  I thought an average IQ was around 100. Or are they just talking about CNN's viewers and staff?
 
2014-03-27 07:24:16 PM  

Shazam999: whistleridge: The only group that is driving the anti-vaccine movement are middle-to-upper middle class whites, who almost universally lean right and spend too much time at church. They're self-centered idiots, who refuse to look at actual facts. Kind of like your post above.

Hmm, all the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely liberal.  And don't make much money.


The anti-vaxxers I know are upper-middle class liberals.
 
2014-03-27 07:25:28 PM  

zeio: hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?

You should not expect anyone here to read the DSM - they are just armchair interneters that think this is all fun and games until one of their kids or relatives are diagnosed with an ASD.


I've read it well enough to keep my kids away from shrinks, if at all possible...

/diagnostic fads are nothing new
 
2014-03-27 07:32:55 PM  

farkinologist: There are some good things about vaccinations, and bad things, and some very bad things. Do the research, ask questions from credible resources and decide for yourself. Opinions are like a**holes, almost everybody has one, but not all of em work. For the record, I have two un-vaccinated kids, both alive, neither has autism, and as far as I know have not contracted any serious diseases. They both got whooping cough (pertussis), and survived it. They gave it to me and their mother and we are vaccinated, and survived it. I'm sure some of the meanies out there will be happy to hear we were "infected".

Try not to hate too much, just because not everybody chooses to believe everything their told, or do it the way you think it should be done.


I wonder how many children and adults contracted pertussis from your children.  I wonder if anyone down the line in the chain of infection died.  But hey, you and your partner and your kids are okay, so that's all just fine, then.
 
2014-03-27 07:33:33 PM  
85 is the avg IQ?!?

....the more ya know.... I guess....
 
2014-03-27 07:35:01 PM  
www.operatorchan.org
 
2014-03-27 07:36:29 PM  
Oh, Subby. You got me. Sort of.

At any rate, I doubt if vaccines have anything whatsoever to do with autism. It is more likely to be due to aging fathers, marriages between geeks, and other factors. It is almost assuredly congenital but not due to exposure to mercury compounds or vaccines. Some part of it is hereditary and random, but as the upper middle class men no longer marry secretaries or nurses but other doctors, lawyers, tech geeks, and rich people, the genes have a much higher risk of expression and crazy-ass parenting, electronics and sterile environments are triggering these genes or creating similar behaviour.

People don't have any historical sense, so they don't think of the large amount of class mixing that occurred before the Conservatives pitched us back into the Robber Baron or Gilded Age. Even the Conservatives never dreamt that men would be allowed to marry professionals and successful business partners.

Doctor-Doctor marriages are more dangerous than gay marriages. The professions are inbreeding at a tremendous rate, and that is a bad thing for everything except the concentration of wealth, income, power, education, intelligence and hereditary disease.

Look at the Jews--nothing wrong with them per se but the Ashkenazi Jews were exposed to dangerous levels of intelligence, neuroticism, and autism before there were words for such things. The Ashkenazi Jews had to invent words for all those things because they were the first people exposed to them by birth and by their professional practices as doctors, psychologists, psychiatrist, lawyers, and so forth. Most of pre-Enlightenment Europe was pretty dumb.

Especially the WASPS. The name of the Picts means "tattoed people". Britannia comes from the Greek pretannike, which also means "painted people". Until the Jews came along, the British were dying their bodies blue and running around nekkid because they didn't want their tats covered up.

Some mild inbreeding helps to concentrate both good and bad genes and the bad genes run themselves out of town. But the cost is terrible for many families. When the English lifted a centuries long ban on the Jews, the Englightenment and the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions happened. Because the smart people were no longer lyinng around moaning and groaning because the savages had pulled their gold teeth out and smashed their eye glasses.

It's not a coincidence. Apart from being Ashkenazi, eye glasses are about the only thing that correlates with intelligence consistently and sufficiently to be scienifically significant. Nobody has explained the Asians yet, but then the Japanese are a bit weird. Presumably thousands of years of exam taking have made half of Asia near-sighted and bookish, just like the Ashkenazi. Genetics and Environment are powerful alone, but in combination they are unstoppable. Just look at the rack on the extinct Irish Elk. Of course sexual selection was involved in that case, but that is another dangerous force that can lead to success and extinction.

Yup. Sexual selection for brains is very dangerous. All in all, it is not a good idea to breed for intelligence. Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. pointed out that big giant human brains are not an advantage, they are a handicap. He was one of the few.

I know two things that aren't causing autism:  smoking and tats. Because they are both things stupid people like to do in excess. You don't need big brains to kill you. Dumbth will do the job just as well.
 
2014-03-27 07:37:00 PM  
Also, apparently boys get vaccinated 4.5x as often as girls.
 
2014-03-27 07:41:58 PM  
Might I point out that the context of the article has very little to do with vaccination.

And while the CDC reports it is still seeing a higher prevalence of autism in white children relative to African-American and Hispanic children, "there's a greater percentage of people of color and in females being diagnosed now," says Scott Badesch, president and CEO of the Autism Society of America. "We're also seeing a great increase of diagnosis above the age of 8 in girls."

You also need to add in the population explosion since the 1960's. The bigger the population, the more prevalent various diseases and problems. If we ever stop killing off millions with assorted wars, police actions, terrorist attacks, rebellions and coups, we'll be standing shoulder to shoulder from coast to coast in a couple of decades.

You should be considering also the side effects of a burgeoning global population: the increase in pollution. With so many chemicals floating around these days, one never knows what can happen when several different types combine in the human body, absorbed through food, water, air and physical contact.

We're also, globally, a lot more radioactive than we were prior to the creation of the nuclear bomb.

So there can be a whole lot of factors which contribute to autism.
 
2014-03-27 07:42:33 PM  
whistleridge:
4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Not sure I agree re the driver's license, but strongly agree about keeping unvaccinated children out of public schools.  If parents refuse to vaccinate their kids, then they should expect society to treat their kids like lepers.

/and most of the dangerous diseases unvaccinated kids would spread are actually far more contagious than leprosy
 
2014-03-27 07:47:47 PM  
That's a lot of retarded people.  Remind me again why we need to support a bunch of useless retarded people with our taxes when it's difficult enough for normal people to get by?
 
2014-03-27 07:48:36 PM  

farkinologist: There are some good things about vaccinations, and bad things, and some very bad things. Do the research, ask questions from credible resources and decide for yourself. Opinions are like a**holes, almost everybody has one, but not all of em work. For the record, I have two un-vaccinated kids, both alive, neither has autism, and as far as I know have not contracted any serious diseases. They both got whooping cough (pertussis), and survived it. They gave it to me and their mother and we are vaccinated, and survived it. I'm sure some of the meanies out there will be happy to hear we were "infected".

Try not to hate too much, just because not everybody chooses to believe everything their told, or do it the way you think it should be done.


The asymptomatic transmission period for whooping cough is an average of 7 to 10 days with a range of 5 to 21 days. Whooping cough is highly contagious. I wonder how many people your family infected before being diagnosed and (hopefully) quarantined. I wonder if any of them were very young, very old, or immunosuppressed. I wonder if any of them had to be hospitalized. I wonder if any of them died.

But hey, you all survived, so that's what matters, right?
 
2014-03-27 07:50:11 PM  

whistleridge: just_intonation: whistleridge: Oh, well done. Very well done.

in other news, I have a simple carrot-and-stick solution to this problem:

1. The state has a clear vested interest in public health. if there is an epidemic, productivity drops, taxes go away, and the state takes on added expenses. If the epidemic is bad enough, it damages public order. Therefore, the state has a legitimate reason to regulate this issue.

2. The state builds and maintains its own schools and its own roads. These are public property.

3. Neither schooling nor roads are rights. Schooling may be obligatory, but public school is a privilege, as demonstrated by routine suspensions and expulsions.

4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated. 

It's simple: you can't drink and drive. You can't send your kids to school with guns. Likewise, you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

But you ARE still free to not vaccinate. You just won't like it.

Yeah, sure.  Your argument falls completely apart for those families who are on the gubmint teat, or here illegally (or both).  There's no wallet to hit, except OURS.

Now, to your point 4) above -- since the State is still being expected to provide education for kids of illegals (e.g. California) -- how about we expand that to say 'if you're not a citizen, and you have about 30 of those 68 kids yourself -- they can't come to school until they are vaccinated.  That hits them in the wallet a lot more.

Let's play a game. It's called 'who can be the stupidest asshole in the thread'.

Oh hey, look: you won! Congratulations! We can all tell you worked hard at it.

News flash: poor people get vaccines for free through public health programs. And they actually do it, because they can't afford to miss work because.

The only group that is driving the anti-vaccine movement are middle-to-upper middle class whites, who almost universally lean right and spend too much time at church. They're self-centered idiots, who refuse to look at actual facts. Kind of like your post above.

Thank you for playing though.


Yeah Jenny McCarthy seems like the type of woman to be a conservative church goer
 
2014-03-27 07:50:39 PM  

Skeptos: whistleridge:
4. QED: if you don't have your kids vaccinated, you can't send your kids to public school, and you lose your driver's license. But you ARE still obligated to provide for their schooling.

Not sure I agree re the driver's license, but strongly agree about keeping unvaccinated children out of public schools.  If parents refuse to vaccinate their kids, then they should expect society to treat their kids like lepers.

/and most of the dangerous diseases unvaccinated kids would spread are actually far more contagious than leprosy


Keep them out of all shared spaces.
 
2014-03-27 07:55:48 PM  
I am on the autism spectrum.

The very far side that indicates I have no autism.
 
2014-03-27 07:56:30 PM  

jaytkay: Shazam999: whistleridge: The only group that is driving the anti-vaccine movement are middle-to-upper middle class whites, who almost universally lean right and spend too much time at church. They're self-centered idiots, who refuse to look at actual facts. Kind of like your post above.

Hmm, all the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely liberal.  And don't make much money.

The anti-vaxxers I know are upper-middle class liberals.


The only anti-vaxxers I've known have all been religious. They're all nutty fruitbags. I guess the outlet is just different.
 
2014-03-27 07:56:52 PM  

Pattuq: That's a lot of retarded people.  Remind me again why we need to support a bunch of useless retarded people with our taxes when it's difficult enough for normal people to get by?


I don't particularly mind my taxes going to support actual retarded people, or other people with legitimate disabilities that prevent them from fully participating in the economy -- that's something a civilized society should do as a matter of course.

Who I utterly loathe are people of normal cognitive ability who deliberately choose to be stupid and ignorant in ways that put the rest of us at risk, like the anti-vaccinators.

I'd be quite happy to see them starve.
 
2014-03-27 07:56:58 PM  
Scary tag? Really? The only thing dumber than that is 90% of the comments in this thread so far.
 
2014-03-27 07:57:52 PM  

filter: 85 is the avg IQ?!?

....the more ya know.... I guess....


I think that's for people who get their news from CNN.  100 is average for the rest of us.
 
2014-03-27 07:59:45 PM  

whistleridge: ...you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.


How is an unvaccinated kid, in a group of vaccinated kids, a danger to anybody?
 
2014-03-27 08:02:00 PM  

neilbradley: jaytkay: Shazam999: whistleridge: The only group that is driving the anti-vaccine movement are middle-to-upper middle class whites, who almost universally lean right and spend too much time at church. They're self-centered idiots, who refuse to look at actual facts. Kind of like your post above.

Hmm, all the anti-vaxxers I know are extremely liberal.  And don't make much money.

The anti-vaxxers I know are upper-middle class liberals.

The only anti-vaxxers I've known have all been religious. They're all nutty fruitbags. I guess the outlet is just different.


I have a friend with five kids - college educated, two parent family, good jobs, not especially religious. Jenny started her nonsense as my friend was pregnant with her youngest. The first four were vaccinated on schedule. The fifth was not. Guess which one is autistic.

Now he's fully vaccinated.
 
2014-03-27 08:03:43 PM  

godxam: filter: 85 is the avg IQ?!?

....the more ya know.... I guess....

I think that's for people who get their news from CNN.  100 is average for the rest of us.


55-65 for Fox News watchers though...
 
2014-03-27 08:05:00 PM  

DrPainMD: whistleridge: ...you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

How is an unvaccinated kid, in a group of vaccinated kids, a danger to anybody?


http://pediatrics.about.com/b/2014/03/19/not-vaccinating-your-kids-w ho -are-you-putting-at-risk.htm

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/249411.php
 
2014-03-27 08:05:09 PM  

MrBentor: CNN: "...The study found nearly half of children with an autism spectrum disorder have average or above-average intellectual ability -- an IQ above 85 -- compared with one-third of children a decade ago...."

Wait, what?  I thought an average IQ was around 100. Or are they just talking about CNN's viewers and staff?


I think it might be an awkward way of saying that the average IQ of autistics is equivalent to the total society's 85 IQ point (85USA = 100Autism). Half of autistic children are at or above that point (85USA), whereas a decade ago only a third of autistic children were at or above that point (85USA).
 
2014-03-27 08:05:29 PM  

DrPainMD: whistleridge: ...you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

How is an unvaccinated kid, in a group of vaccinated kids, a danger to anybody?


It's called herd immunity. I'm on a phone or I'd give you a link. Look it up on Wikipedia.

Basically, you need 95% of the herd to be immunized to get the benefit for everyone. Less, and it pops up again. Some places are pushing 90% now. LA is having problems with pertussis, NYC has measles, etc.
 
2014-03-27 08:05:33 PM  
According to the article, 1 in 45 males born in New Jersey have autism. That sounds staggeringly high.
 
2014-03-27 08:07:49 PM  

Alonjar: According to the article, 1 in 45 males born in New Jersey have autism. That sounds staggeringly high.


The numbers are horseshiat, that's why.  They apply the "Autism" label to anyone who has any sort of social difficulty so they can sell those people drugs.
 
2014-03-27 08:09:25 PM  
Autism researcher here.

As for autism related to vaccines, there are conflicting theories and frankly the biological mechanism is feasible.  But, more research needs to be done, and insofar the positive contributions of vaccines to society far outweigh any known risks at this time.

On the other hand, a theory that I have been looking into for the past few years in the feasibility of autism being triggered by excessive ultrasound exposure in the womb.  There are some side effects of ultrasound exposure that can be linked directly with autism symptoms.

Whatever it is, we need to find out what is causing this rise and fast.  If you extrapolate the data, in about 50 years we will have like ... 50 autists for every 1 non-ASD.  So, wouldn't autism then become neurotypical?
 
2014-03-27 08:11:03 PM  

DrPainMD: whistleridge: ...you can't drive around spreading your preventable epidemics, and you can't send your kids to school to do the same. It's simple prevention.

How is an unvaccinated kid, in a group of vaccinated kids, a danger to anybody?


The short answer (see the links provided above) is that *not* all kids can be vaccinated even if their parents want them to be because (a) they're too young, (b) they have compromised immune systems from some other disease, (c) they have serious allergies to the substances the vaccines are made of, etc.

"Herd immunity," i.e., when everybody who medically can be vaccinated has been, protects these people because it's far less likely they'll come into contact with something like whooping cough.
 
2014-03-27 08:17:14 PM  

umudbro: Autism researcher here.

As for autism related to vaccines, there are conflicting theories and frankly the biological mechanism is feasible.  But, more research needs to be done, and insofar the positive contributions of vaccines to society far outweigh any known risks at this time.

On the other hand, a theory that I have been looking into for the past few years in the feasibility of autism being triggered by excessive ultrasound exposure in the womb.  There are some side effects of ultrasound exposure that can be linked directly with autism symptoms.

Whatever it is, we need to find out what is causing this rise and fast.  If you extrapolate the data, in about 50 years we will have like ... 50 autists for every 1 non-ASD.  So, wouldn't autism then become neurotypical?


It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.
 
2014-03-27 08:34:40 PM  

Tetzlaff: t's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.


That's a harsh way of putting it, but, yes.

We live in a permissive, neurotic, narcissistic society. What do we get when we breed? Autism.
Not very believable when you look at it. It is a catch-all to avoid a bigger issue.

Does autism exist? I think it does.
Unfortunately, I have a friend with an autistic sibling. I'm not a doctor but that boy is no where near  "normal".
 
2014-03-27 08:38:27 PM  
I have to call BS on this one. I see all of the vaccination data in our district and the number of kids without vaccinations or claiming waivers is about 5% if that.

The head line should read 68 of 69 kids not vaccinated yet.
 
2014-03-27 08:47:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?


For starters, from the article you linked:

1.       Deficits in using communication for social purposes, such as greeting and sharing information, in a manner that is appropriate for the social context.
2.       Impairment of the ability to change communication to match context or the needs of the listener, such as speaking differently in a classroom than on the playground, talking differently to a child than to an adult, and avoiding use of overly formal language.
3.       Difficulties following rules for conversation and storytelling, such as taking turns in conversation, rephrasing when misunderstood, and knowing how to use verbal and nonverbal signals to regulate interaction.
4.       Difficulties understanding what is not explicitly stated (e.g., making inferences) and nonliteral or ambiguous meanings of language (e.g., idioms, humor, metaphors, multiple meanings that depend on the context for interpretation).


All 4 can be applied to 90% of all children under the age of 12.

The other half of the problem is that parents (and far too many physicians) seem to think that a kid with a lot of pent-up energy or throwing a temper tantrum is automatically a sign of ASD. Or, the parents just want an excuse to medicate their child instead of disciplining them, or even just taking an active role in raising them.

And, no, letting them sit in front of a TV watching shows or playing video games and smartphone apps all day is NOT raising a child.

Nowadays, it seems like no one wants to see the obvious connection between kids being unable to sit still, and the fact that kids no longer run around outside and use up all that pent-up energy...
 
2014-03-27 08:48:55 PM  
Soooo...I'm actually just really annoyed. Everyone in the world has behavioral patterns that fall into a category of some sort of "label". Take narcissistic types, almost everyone has a few of the items that fall under the label, some can be truly labeled as such. There is no way in hell that out of a little over 5 thousand kids in 11 states are found to be truly autistic as opposed to having "some" of the qualities of a TRUE autistic. Everybody panic and contact Jenny McCarthy.
 
2014-03-27 08:50:10 PM  
Ah.. ahuh. Wanna know what leads to increased rates of autism diagnosis? Redefining it in the DSM. Come DSM VI, rates of autism will mysteriously drop back down again. Book it, done.
 
2014-03-27 08:51:03 PM  
raerae1980:

Did I hear correctly when I heard that autism begins in the womb, which would be before vaccinations begins?

Autism is caused by exposure to Gene Autry.
 
2014-03-27 08:53:38 PM  

zeio: ebenbane: That's okay, the world is overpopulated

So more autism spectrum disorders which do not effect life expectancy is better how?


Autistic people don't breed as often?
 
2014-03-27 08:53:40 PM  

Pattuq:

The numbers are horseshiat, that's why.  They apply the "Autism" label to anyone who has any sort of social difficulty so they can sell those people drugs.

Tetzlaff: umudbro: Autism researcher here.

It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.


I'm not sure how "fashionable" it is to shop for an Autism diagnosis, but I do know it's quite "fashionable" to make blanket obtstructive and antagonistic remarks for the sake of collecting feedback... also known as "trolling" and "bites". For example, take the thread's headline. That there's a troll. However, as has been stated multiple times, that is an inventive troll that leans toward the snarky and humorous rather than the blatantly vitriolic.

Now with you two, I don't know if you're just standard internet tough guys who "know better", or just attention whores seeking negative feedback for your "trolling". In either case, if you actually knew more about what you spoke of, your choice of post might be a bit different. Having some anecdote of knowing a farkwad who calls his recalcitrant son "autistic" isn't evidence that this here is just a faddish concocted epidemic.

In other words... refrain from posting and do some research... or go back to 4chan and bone up on trolling.
 
2014-03-27 08:56:14 PM  

Nick Nostril: We used to call them hyper.


Yeah I think you're unfamiliar with autism then.

On another note, while I think it's unlikely that vaccinations cause autism, and I would certainly vaccinate any of my children until they thought they were pin cushions, one must admit that even if vaccinations led to an increased incidence of autism, it wouldn't necessarily affect vaccinated person. So the fact that one in sixty-eight children is autistic does not prove that vaccinations don't cause autism.
 
2014-03-27 08:59:45 PM  

proteus_b: Nick Nostril: We used to call them hyper.

Yeah I think you're unfamiliar with autism then.

On another note, while I think it's unlikely that vaccinations cause autism, and I would certainly vaccinate any of my children until they thought they were pin cushions, one must admit that even if vaccinations led to an increased incidence of autism, it wouldn't necessarily affect vaccinated person. So the fact that one in sixty-eight children is autistic does not prove that vaccinations don't cause autism.


Sure. What you're semantically saying is true. That's not the proof. Other studies rather are the proof that they have not found any correlation to vaccinations and autism. Such as unvaccinated children getting autism (unless your point was that there could be many causes of autism).
 
2014-03-27 09:14:47 PM  

rebelyell2006: MrBentor: CNN: "...The study found nearly half of children with an autism spectrum disorder have average or above-average intellectual ability -- an IQ above 85 -- compared with one-third of children a decade ago...."

Wait, what?  I thought an average IQ was around 100. Or are they just talking about CNN's viewers and staff?

I think it might be an awkward way of saying that the average IQ of autistics is equivalent to the total society's 85 IQ point (85USA = 100Autism). Half of autistic children are at or above that point (85USA), whereas a decade ago only a third of autistic children were at or above that point (85USA).


Actually, anything between 85 and 115 is considered "average", so above 115 is "above average".
 
2014-03-27 09:15:12 PM  
Step 1: Redefine "autism" from a specific disorder into a spectrum of traits, ranging from benign to life destroying, that have always been part of human existence.
Step 2: Publish the data with the adjusted higher numbers for peers to reveiw.
Step 3: Undo Louis Pastuer's life's work when the plebians panic.

Good news: Idiocracy can never happen.
Bad news: You'll never get to dine at Buttfarker's.
 
2014-03-27 09:16:16 PM  
I got all my vaccines and I turned out fine.
 
2014-03-27 09:20:14 PM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Pattuq:

The numbers are horseshiat, that's why.  They apply the "Autism" label to anyone who has any sort of social difficulty so they can sell those people drugs.

Tetzlaff: umudbro: Autism researcher here.

It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.

I'm not sure how "fashionable" it is to shop for an Autism diagnosis, but I do know it's quite "fashionable" to make blanket obtstructive and antagonistic remarks for the sake of collecting feedback... also known as "trolling" and "bites". For example, take the thread's headline. That there's a troll. However, as has been stated multiple times, that is an inventive troll that leans toward the snarky and humorous rather than the blatantly vitriolic.

Now with you two, I don't know if you're just standard internet tough guys who "know better", or just attention whores seeking negative feedback for your "trolling". In either case, if you actually knew more about what you spoke of, your choice of post might be a bit different. Having some anecdote of knowing a farkwad who calls his recalcitrant son "autistic" isn't evidence that this here is just a faddish concocted epidemic.

In other words... refrain from posting and do some research... or go back to 4chan and bone up on trolling.


There is autism. But is it really on the rise? Or do we label kids who'd been considered "weird kid" as "OMG autism" nowadays? The talk is always about a "spectrum". Same problem with ADHD...some have it, many others would just need a full 8 hours of sleep and better nutrition et voila, ADHD gone.

Here's how I think those numbers rise.

1950
Case A: Kid has actually autism.
Case B: Kid is a bit weird but o.k.
Case C: Kid goes through a phase but is o.k.
--> 1 autism case

2010:
Case A: Kid has actually autism.
Case B: Kid is a bit weird but ok....but the parents INSIST it's autism
Case C: Kid goes through a phase but is ok...but the MD doesn't dare to say "I dunno maybe your kid is just a bit funky and was born that way" and says "could be autism" instead.
--> 3 autism cases

Media: OMG autism tripled
 
2014-03-27 09:22:30 PM  
I'm "on the spectrum" as they say now a days, but, I think it's genetic, based on some of my relatives.  Didn't get diagnosed until I was in my 50's, but, wasn't really surprised and it explained a lot of things in my early life.  Managed to lead a "normal" life, for the most part.  A bit of self-medicating, maybe a bit too much in my late teens and twenties.  Wife and kids and step-daughters, legitimate career (will be retired soon), etc.  The psych who diagnosed me, wanted me to be a speaker and tell my life story, so others could see that you can have a "normal" life.  I, of course, said I couldn't do that, because I hate public speaking, so people struggle on, without the benefit of hearing about zimbomba63's multi-faceted life.
 
2014-03-27 09:25:37 PM  

JohnnyApocalypse: (unless your point was that there could be many causes of autism).


There indeed could be many causes of autism, and even if vaccination were one of them, it doesn't necessarily mean that every vaccination will cause autism. In the same way that having sex with someone who has AIDS doesn't necessarily mean that you will contract AIDS. That can vary from fairly low risk to fairly high risk depending on what kind of sex you have, for instance.
 
2014-03-27 09:31:39 PM  
Tetzlaff:

It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.


Hi.  It's true that lots of people flock to autism for a diagnosis for a variety of reasons.  And it is true that ASD is a very broad disorder diagnosed by salient social issues.   However, do not fall victim to ennui because of the sudden inundation of autism as a fad diagnosis.

This ongoing study from the CDC has shown an exponential rise since the 1970's -- long before autism became a fad.  At the end of the day all we have is data.  And, dare I say,in the face of raw data the onus of convincing me that it is a fictional disease falls upon your shoulders.

/pulls up chair, lights cigar

You may begin.
 
2014-03-27 09:36:41 PM  

whistleridge: Hit them in the wallet. That will shape them up really quickly. Sure, they'll sue, both for discrimination and for religious reasons, but they'll lose. There's not a court in the land that will uphold these assholes' right to not vaccinate against the state's right to regulate its roads. Particularly not when a clear public good is associated.


You'd think so but Waldorf schools have some of the lowest vaccination rates and charge $20,000+ a year.
 
2014-03-27 09:42:29 PM  
One in 68 U.S. children has an autism spectrum disorder (ASD)

but

the CDC estimates 1 in 42 boys has autism, 4.5 times as many as girls (1 in 189).

so 68 is about halfway between 42 and 189?  lol whut?
 
2014-03-27 09:43:10 PM  

Skeptos: Pattuq: That's a lot of retarded people.  Remind me again why we need to support a bunch of useless retarded people with our taxes when it's difficult enough for normal people to get by?

I don't particularly mind my taxes going to support actual retarded people, or other people with legitimate disabilities that prevent them from fully participating in the economy -- that's something a civilized society should do as a matter of course.

Who I utterly loathe are people of normal cognitive ability who deliberately choose to be stupid and ignorant in ways that put the rest of us at risk, like the anti-vaccinators.

I'd be quite happy to see them starve.


Cool, do we all get to choose who gets the benefit of our tax money or are you the only one, El Supremo..
 
2014-03-27 09:45:36 PM  

umudbro: Tetzlaff:

It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.

Hi.  It's true that lots of people flock to autism for a diagnosis for a variety of reasons.  And it is true that ASD is a very broad disorder diagnosed by salient social issues.   However, do not fall victim to ennui because of the sudden inundation of autism as a fad diagnosis.

This ongoing study from the CDC has shown an exponential rise since the 1970's -- long before autism became a fad.  At the end of the day all we have is data.  And, dare I say,in the face of raw data the onus of convincing me that it is a fictional disease falls upon your shoulders.

/pulls up chair, lights cigar

You may begin.


Raw data based on what? If the "raw data" is rise in children diagnosed with autism then the CDC data can not be used by either of us. If we changed the criteria scaling the cut-off the spectrum more and more towards diagnosing with autism instead of not then the "cases of autism" slowly rise. Every fad has a beginning THEN rises to the point where everybody (mainstream)  notices.

But there is actually one thing I can think of: More and more parents have their children rather later in life than sooner as compared to the early 20th century and before. Maybe that's worth looking into.
 
2014-03-27 09:51:29 PM  
The sensationalist headlines "journalists" are throwing around now are downright scary in their misinformation.
Fear sells clicks, clicks make money, and they know it. But there is nothing to fear, the ASD definition was recently broadened, so it's only logical that incidences of autism would rise sharply, now that more people by definition have autism.
 
2014-03-27 10:07:42 PM  

Loreweaver: All 4 can be applied to 90% of all children under the age of 12.

The other half of the problem is that parents (and far too many physicians) seem to think that a kid with a lot of pent-up energy or throwing a temper tantrum is automatically a sign of ASD. Or, the parents just want an excuse to medicate their child instead of disciplining them, or even just taking an active role in raising them.


Actually, I agree with you one one thing: Family Doctors and General Pediatricians have no business diagnosing autism outside of infancy, or really any mental health issue. They should be referring these kids to actual pediatric psychiatry practices for evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment.

But, to be blunt, it sounds less like you're concerned with misdiagnosis of children based on the failings of the parents, and more with the concern that your autistic child could be lumped together with the likes of people like Chris Chambers and most of 4Chan. It's defined as a spectrum for a reason.
 
2014-03-27 10:21:06 PM  
Tetzlaff:
Raw data based on what? If the "raw data" is rise in children diagnosed with autism then the CDC data can not be used by either of us. If we changed the criteria scaling the cut-off the spectrum more and more towards diagnosing with autism instead of not then the "cases of autism" slowly rise. Every fad has a beginning THEN rises to the point where everybody (mainstream)  notices.

But there is actually one thing I can think of: More and more parents have their children rather later in life than sooner as compared to the early 20th century and before. Maybe that's worth looking into.


The epidemiology of autism is a complicated issue, yes, especially because of the DSM changes.

But saying it is a fictitious disease is not accurate..  There are too many documented physical pathologies and genetics linked with genuine autism.  And while the overarching symptoms are diagnosed based on social cues, there are very real underlying physical abnormalities that predispose people to those actions and cognitive difficulties.

Of course social cues are not the best metric, and ASD is a catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders.  A number of people diagnosed with ASD are just similar to people with the genuine underlying physical issues that cause ASD.  The CDC numbers are concerning, but are indeed blurry.

You had mentioned age being a risk factor...  As I had mentioned earlier I am concerned about side effects from prenatal sonography possibly predisposing a child to autism.  I think older mothers get a number more of sonograms, too, considering they are "high risk".
 
2014-03-27 10:22:43 PM  
Every one of those 1 in 68 has a fulfilling career awaiting for them at the Department of Education.
 
2014-03-27 10:37:24 PM  
I had no idea there were so many immunologists on Fark.  So, if I pretend that I'm all science-y and condemn all anti-vaxxers to death, and act like I've read ALL the research "out there" on vaccination and autism, can I get my dick sucked too?
 
2014-03-27 10:44:29 PM  
so where the fk are these idiots getting their kids into schools ? idk of any schools that will take kids without their shots . wtf ? are all these assholes taking their kids to private schools ? wtf !?!?!
 
2014-03-27 10:57:35 PM  

JohnnyApocalypse: Pattuq:

The numbers are horseshiat, that's why.  They apply the "Autism" label to anyone who has any sort of social difficulty so they can sell those people drugs.

Tetzlaff: umudbro: Autism researcher here.

It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.

I'm not sure how "fashionable" it is to shop for an Autism diagnosis, but I do know it's quite "fashionable" to make blanket obtstructive and antagonistic remarks for the sake of collecting feedback... also known as "trolling" and "bites". For example, take the thread's headline. That there's a troll. However, as has been stated multiple times, that is an inventive troll that leans toward the snarky and humorous rather than the blatantly vitriolic.

Now with you two, I don't know if you're just standard internet tough guys who "know better", or just attention whores seeking negative feedback for your "trolling". In either case, if you actually knew more about what you spoke of, your choice of post might be a bit different. Having some anecdote of knowing a farkwad who calls his recalcitrant son "autistic" isn't evidence that this here is just a faddish concocted epidemic.

In other words... refrain from posting and do some research... or go back to 4chan and bone up on trolling.


I'm a salesman for a major pharmaceutical company.  We push drugs on doctors every day, regardless of whether or not it's ethical.  I have rarely met a doctor who can't be convinced of the value (economic, of course) of championing specific medications.  If you are suggesting that autism diagnoses for drug sales are nonsense based on anecdotal evidence, it seems to me you've never been involved in the industry and shouldn't be talking about the subject as if you were a sage.
 
2014-03-27 10:59:28 PM  
HOTY, if we're talking about what's real.
 
2014-03-27 11:02:46 PM  

umudbro: But saying it is a fictitious disease is not accurate.. There are too many documented physical pathologies and genetics linked with genuine autism. And while the overarching symptoms are diagnosed based on social cues, there are very real underlying physical abnormalities that predispose people to those actions and cognitive difficulties.

Of course social cues are not the best metric, and ASD is a catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders.


A wastebasket diagnosis is pretty much the definition of a fictitious disease.

/a thing is that many things is probably nothing at all...
 
2014-03-27 11:39:25 PM  
There's people that have not been vaccinated that believe that just because they're not getting sick, vaccines are something you should just freely be able to chose to get.

There's people that drive drunk and kill no one. So think about that.
 
2014-03-27 11:53:35 PM  

zeio: hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: Stop diluting the definition of Autism to include brats with self-entitled helicopter parents!

Humor us and define Autism.

As a bonus, which of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM-V for autism and social development disorders do you disagree with, and why?

You should not expect anyone here to read the DSM - they are just armchair interneters that think this is all fun and games until one of their kids or relatives are diagnosed with an ASD.


Wait doesn't everyone have a DSM-V at home?

/Maybe on their kindle
//ISBN  9780890425558
///C'mon you can even rent it
 
2014-03-27 11:56:04 PM  

zeio: Shazam999: People have totally forgotten about the raging polio epidemics that occurred that totally shut down cities

People also forget the only route that polio is spread is feces being ingested. Look it up. Maybe if there wasnt a tolerable amount of poop in food and on unwashed hands...


Do you know, historically, what fertilizer is?
 
2014-03-28 12:03:49 AM  
Damn, two links like this greened today. People really need to start reading the articles before commenting.
 
2014-03-28 12:08:57 AM  

Bumblefark: umudbro: But saying it is a fictitious disease is not accurate.. There are too many documented physical pathologies and genetics linked with genuine autism. And while the overarching symptoms are diagnosed based on social cues, there are very real underlying physical abnormalities that predispose people to those actions and cognitive difficulties.

Of course social cues are not the best metric, and ASD is a catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders.
A wastebasket diagnosis is pretty much the definition of a fictitious disease.

/a thing is that many things is probably nothing at all...


It's not a wastebasket diagnosis.  It has very distinct symptoms.  Even moreso, we are learning that autism has very distinct underlying physical symptoms as well.  It has a chemical signature.

That is why there are worries that vaccines, paternal age, ultrasound, etc. are risk factors for autism.  Some theories have feasible mechanisms.  Kind of like if you hear a certain clunk in a car you can figure out what the problem is.
 
2014-03-28 12:13:55 AM  
To clarify:
There are several distinct issues within the Autism Spectrum Disorders, and ASD is a broad ranging diagnosis...but for the more specific diagnoses of autism, asperger's, etc there are some distinct signatures.  They have genetic markers and have documented pathology.  Real stuff, not fictitious.

There is lots more to learn about them though.
 
2014-03-28 12:55:51 AM  

umudbro: Bumblefark: umudbro: But saying it is a fictitious disease is not accurate.. There are too many documented physical pathologies and genetics linked with genuine autism. And while the overarching symptoms are diagnosed based on social cues, there are very real underlying physical abnormalities that predispose people to those actions and cognitive difficulties.

Of course social cues are not the best metric, and ASD is a catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders.
A wastebasket diagnosis is pretty much the definition of a fictitious disease.

/a thing is that many things is probably nothing at all...

It's not a wastebasket diagnosis.  It has very distinct symptoms.  Even moreso, we are learning that autism has very distinct underlying physical symptoms as well.  It has a chemical signature.

That is why there are worries that vaccines, paternal age, ultrasound, etc. are risk factors for autism.  Some theories have feasible mechanisms.  Kind of like if you hear a certain clunk in a car you can figure out what the problem is.


So...it's a "catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders," all of which happen to share a common and well-defined symptomology/physiology/chemistry?

Meh. I'll play along. If it's such a tidy and uniform thing, empirically, what's the basis for speculating that there might be some innumerable different disorders causing it?
 
2014-03-28 01:26:21 AM  
Vaccinate them like bison, just wait until you get a clear shot. Kinda like the waist gunner in "Platoon".
 
2014-03-28 01:34:26 AM  
My son is 10 years old. He just learned to verbalized 3-word sentences this last year. His speech is so slurred, only relatives and teachers understand him after months of exposure. He is in the 3rd grade.

He was diagnosed with pure autism at 2 years old. That type of autism has a 1 in 1000 occurance, even now. This is important for people to understand. Autism Spectrum Disorder may be 1 in 100 or whatever (changes yearly), but the diagnosis of "Autism" as a stand alone word - the kind that is obviously not just bad behavior (Rain Man) - is a hell of a lot lower.

Just something to keep in mind. Rain Man autism is much more rare, but that doesn't mean anyone with autism can grow up to be a businessman with a family if beaten enough.

I don't think the "pure Autism" diagnosis exists in the new DSM, but the explanation is still accurate and relevant. The severity levels in children and adults with autism vary WILDLY. Expecting the term "autism" to accurately illustrate them all is ludacris.
 
2014-03-28 01:40:39 AM  

hardinparamedic: Loreweaver: All 4 can be applied to 90% of all children under the age of 12.

The other half of the problem is that parents (and far too many physicians) seem to think that a kid with a lot of pent-up energy or throwing a temper tantrum is automatically a sign of ASD. Or, the parents just want an excuse to medicate their child instead of disciplining them, or even just taking an active role in raising them.

Actually, I agree with you one one thing: Family Doctors and General Pediatricians have no business diagnosing autism outside of infancy, or really any mental health issue. They should be referring these kids to actual pediatric psychiatry practices for evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment.

But, to be blunt, it sounds less like you're concerned with misdiagnosis of children based on the failings of the parents, and more with the concern that your autistic child could be lumped together with the likes of people like Chris Chambers and most of 4Chan. It's defined as a spectrum for a reason.


You are right. I don't like the idea of someone who is truly Autistic being lumped into the same group with the average kid throwing a temper tantrum at the supermarket, just because it is convenient and trendy to classify most behavior problems as "Autism Spectrum".

But, the reason they are getting lumped together is *because* of years of parental pressure on doctors to "fix" behavior problems which actually stem from a lack of parenting. I say this as someone with 25 years of personal parenting experience, as someone who grew up being a surrogate parent to 5 younger siblings over the years. I am talking the whole deal, from diapers to graduation...

I say this as someone who has demonstrated firsthand how much a child's behavior changes when you don't talk down to them, actually listen to what they have to say, explain *why* they should or shouldn't do something, in a way they can understand and respect, and thank them for good behavior. Notice I said *thank* them , not just praise them.
 
2014-03-28 01:46:47 AM  
So...it's a "catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders," all of which happen to share a common and well-defined symptomology/physiology/chemistry?

Meh. I'll play along. If it's such a tidy and uniform thing, empirically, what's the basis for speculating that there might be some innumerable different disorders causing it?


They have distinct symptoms, not well defined.  It's not very tidy, but patterns are emerging.

To clarify: Autism Spectrum Disorders is the catchall term.  There are 5 subclasses of ASD in the current DSM: Rett's Syndrome, Childhood Disintigrative Disorder, Asperger's Syndrome, Classical Autism, and Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Yet Specified.

A rudimentary wiki search will show a variety of patterns emergent in each population, and there are numerous research articles picking out specific genetic sequences and biomarkers for each.

The rub is that we see the tip of the ice berg.  People's bodies are very complicated and made of many smaller moving parts.  There could be many different problems with the same manifestation, hence the numerous underlying disorders leading to similar issues.

Since autism was first discovered through social cues, we have to work backgrounds from the social to the physical in order to figure out the problem that's really going on underneath.  Lots of patterns are lining up.  It will get more clear with time, but more research is needed.
 
2014-03-28 01:50:39 AM  

JPSimonetti: My son is 10 years old. He just learned to verbalized 3-word sentences this last year.


Stop tutoring him.
 
2014-03-28 02:04:07 AM  

umudbro: So...it's a "catchall for what could be hundreds if not thousands of underlying disorders," all of which happen to share a common and well-defined symptomology/physiology/chemistry?

Meh. I'll play along. If it's such a tidy and uniform thing, empirically, what's the basis for speculating that there might be some innumerable different disorders causing it?

They have distinct symptoms, not well defined.  It's not very tidy, but patterns are emerging.

To clarify: Autism Spectrum Disorders is the catchall term.  There are 5 subclasses of ASD in the current DSM: Rett's Syndrome, Childhood Disintigrative Disorder, Asperger's Syndrome, Classical Autism, and Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Yet Specified.

A rudimentary wiki search will show a variety of patterns emergent in each population, and there are numerous research articles picking out specific genetic sequences and biomarkers for each.

The rub is that we see the tip of the ice berg.  People's bodies are very complicated and made of many smaller moving parts.  There could be many different problems with the same manifestation, hence the numerous underlying disorders leading to similar issues.

Since autism was first discovered through social cues, we have to work backgrounds from the social to the physical in order to figure out the problem that's really going on underneath.  Lots of patterns are lining up.  It will get more clear with time, but more research is needed.


Yeah, I saw your follow-up only after I posted. Otherwise, I would have picked another angle. Point I was trying to get to:

Basically, I think we agree that it really isn't a "spectrum" (one thing in varying degrees) so much as a hodgepodge (many things, collected under one label). The only difference between (your) "catchall" and (my) "wastebasket" is that I tend to think that there's been a whole lot of junk diagnoses thrown in there, as well.

/I do find your optimism remarkable, though. The idea that clinical constructs not initially derived from etiological research (or any sort of empirical research, actually) will nevertheless be validated and explained by the same...that's quite a leap of faith. :)
 
2014-03-28 02:33:46 AM  
 
Basically, I think we agree that it really isn't a "spectrum" (one thing in varying degrees) so much as a hodgepodge (many things, collected under one label). The only difference between (your) "catchall" and (my) "wastebasket" is that I tend to think that there's been a whole lot of junk diagnoses thrown in there, as well.


It is kind of both a hodgepodge and spectrum.  It is a spectrum in that there are many varying degrees of the same presentations.  It is a hodgepodge in that the symptoms are so commonplace there is much overlap with other disorders and the general public.

And not to mention the dsm keeps changing, ...farking thing.  That's made epidemiology hell and my life hell and everything is hell.  (balancing the optimism with reality)

But progress has been made on etiology.  We have made some serious connections now, and animal models are becoming more useful.  Although autism animal models are still in their infancy.
 
2014-03-28 02:55:50 AM  
Bravo, subby
 
2014-03-28 03:14:20 AM  

umudbro: And not to mention the dsm keeps changing, ...farking thing. That's made epidemiology hell and my life hell and everything is hell. (balancing the optimism with reality)


Heh. I worked the clinical side, once upon a time; I lost optimism a long time ago. Would be nice to see research taking a greater lead.

Stuff like this gives me hope, tho.
 
2014-03-28 06:51:02 AM  
static.comicvine.com
 
2014-03-28 08:38:56 AM  
If the number of people who actually have some form of biological autism is truly so high, and rising so quickly, then we have nothing short of an ecological disaster on our hands.

The folks claiming to link it to genetics are almost certainly wrong. We've found a bit of a tendency for autism to run in families, but the "genetic links" found thus far are too weak and unreliable to account for that tendency. There are plenty of other things that run in families, and we should be looking to those for answers.

I'd call the antivaxxers wrong, but the junk-science behind their claims is so bad that they don't even rise to the level of "wrong". At most, they have a single discredited study by a known fraudster and quack. Said quack seems to at least be sincere, but that has only made him more dangerous, given the fraud and deception he has shown himself willing to commit just to advance that belief.

The current epigenetic research that hardinparamedic mentioned seems much more promising: factors that arise in utero (long before vaccines are ever administered), but are not linked to genes per se. They're already showing common threads that are much, much stronger than anything previous research has been able to find. We still haven't found a cause, but these strong common factors are like signposts: follow the trail of cause and effect, and as long as it stays this strong, you'll likely find your culprit.

That said, this research also points to the likelihood of something to blame: something people do that dramatically ups the risk of their child developing this, or can avoid doing to dramatically lower that risk. If autism is truly on the rise, then this thing, whatever it is, is likely on the rise as well. I suspect that if this research finally gives us an answer, it is going to make a lot of people very uncomfortable.
 
2014-03-28 08:41:12 AM  
Not surprising that more and more people are being diagnosed with Autism.  It's the new ADHD.
 
2014-03-28 09:25:42 AM  
So uhhh... who actually read the article? Cause all I saw was the CNN talking about how the CDC said 1 in 68 children are becoming autistic. Nothing about vaccinations.....


/well played subby
//hook line and sinker
 
2014-03-28 12:11:55 PM  
So...what is the cause of Autism again?
 
2014-03-28 05:09:36 PM  

doubled99: So...what is the cause of Autism again?


Cell phone usage while pregnant. The rate of autism has increased during the same time that cell phone usage has increased. Therefore, this MUST be it.

Either that or Nutella. There wasn't nearly as much autism before Nutella was popular here.
 
2014-03-28 05:27:47 PM  

Pattuq: JohnnyApocalypse: Pattuq:

The numbers are horseshiat, that's why.  They apply the "Autism" label to anyone who has any sort of social difficulty so they can sell those people drugs.

Tetzlaff: umudbro: Autism researcher here.

It's caused by helicopter parents, snowflake syndrome and lazy MDs who can't find anything wrong with the kid and use it as a "go to" excuse or something they can tell angry parents so that they leave happy.

You waste your time on a mostly fictive "fashion disease". Maybe you want to look into some real problems like diabetes or Alzheimer's.

I'm not sure how "fashionable" it is to shop for an Autism diagnosis, but I do know it's quite "fashionable" to make blanket obtstructive and antagonistic remarks for the sake of collecting feedback... also known as "trolling" and "bites". For example, take the thread's headline. That there's a troll. However, as has been stated multiple times, that is an inventive troll that leans toward the snarky and humorous rather than the blatantly vitriolic.

Now with you two, I don't know if you're just standard internet tough guys who "know better", or just attention whores seeking negative feedback for your "trolling". In either case, if you actually knew more about what you spoke of, your choice of post might be a bit different. Having some anecdote of knowing a farkwad who calls his recalcitrant son "autistic" isn't evidence that this here is just a faddish concocted epidemic.

In other words... refrain from posting and do some research... or go back to 4chan and bone up on trolling.

I'm a salesman for a major pharmaceutical company.  We push drugs on doctors every day, regardless of whether or not it's ethical.  I have rarely met a doctor who can't be convinced of the value (economic, of course) of championing specific medications.  If you are suggesting that autism diagnoses for drug sales are nonsense based on anecdotal evidence, it seems to me you've never been involved in the industry and shouldn't be ...


Goal post moving etc. etc. Too bad I'm late to reply, as you've probably driven on to crap on some other thread. I didn't say that autism diagnoses for drug sales are nonsense. You're calling autism a fictitious disease that get diagnosed by doctors both to make money and to get helicopter parents out of their office. Just because you boldly claim to have no ethical qualms about selling doctors on your pharmaceutical wares, regardless of efficacy, and that some doctors will turn around and sell these drugs as help for autism, doesn't invalidate autism as an actual malady. That's like saying that because you have "convinced" doctors through financial incentive of your particular drug's effectiveness in battling leukemia that therefore leukemia doesn't exist. Whether or not doctors overdiagnose autism spectrum disorders, they still exist. And fundamentally, drugs don't cure it... they may help some individuals cope with some of the symptoms.

Though I'm not a drug rep, I do know something about autism, although not that much. Just because you're a drug rep, that doesn't give you much more expertise either, except perhaps that some physicians are unscrupulous. About the only thing you've convinced me of is that you have little faith in people, and that you have no qualms in exploiting them.
 
2014-03-28 05:35:20 PM  

umudbro: Autism researcher here.

As for autism related to vaccines, there are conflicting theories and frankly the biological mechanism is feasible.  But, more research needs to be done, and insofar the positive contributions of vaccines to society far outweigh any known risks at this time.

On the other hand, a theory that I have been looking into for the past few years in the feasibility of autism being triggered by excessive ultrasound exposure in the womb.  There are some side effects of ultrasound exposure that can be linked directly with autism symptoms.

Whatever it is, we need to find out what is causing this rise and fast.  If you extrapolate the data, in about 50 years we will have like ... 50 autists for every 1 non-ASD.  So, wouldn't autism then become neurotypical?


I assume someone who calls themselves an "autism researcher" is someone without any clinical training or access to a laboratory?
 
2014-03-28 11:09:03 PM  

hardinparamedic: I've always said this country needs a few good epidemics of vaccine preventable disease, and thousands of dead and crippled people as a result of it before people stop listening to outright idiots who got their medical degrees at the University of Google.

That said, there is zero evidence that autism is caused by vaccination or a vaccine component, out of almost twenty five years of intense studies on the matter.

Also, bravo, submitter. You'll get a few bites.


And how disappointed would you be if that epidemic failed to materialize?
 
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