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(UC San Diego)   Autism develops during pregnancy, which begs the question: How do vaccines make you pregnant?   (health.ucsd.edu) divider line 74
    More: Interesting, begs the question, visual cortex, Center of Excellence, vaccines, pregnancy, temporal lobes, social cue, autism  
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2109 clicks; posted to Geek » on 27 Mar 2014 at 1:07 PM (26 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2014-03-27 11:32:03 AM
This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.
 
2014-03-27 11:36:18 AM
Immaculate inoculation?
 
2014-03-27 11:43:29 AM
Both involve injections.

But the oral vaccine rarely results in pregnancy.
 
2014-03-27 11:47:22 AM
Vaccines, like pregnancy, start with a small prick.
 
2014-03-27 11:48:53 AM

I_Am_Weasel: Vaccines, like pregnancy, start with a small prick.


Also some overlap in the phrase, "I'll try to make this as painless as possible."
 
2014-03-27 11:59:15 AM
This is the central problem of anti-vaxx idiocy that I have been raising since Wakefield and his farkwit army gained prominence.

Autism is a disorder of neuronal migration. This happens in the second trimester. The neurons move to make the brain. In autistic brains they move to all sorts of wrong places. If I were to show you a non-clinical brain and an autistic brain you can see the structural differences with the naked eye. Big stuff too: Five layers or cortex where there should be six and so on.

Any theory linking vaccines and autism must have at least a theory of how vaccines given at 1 year create changes that we know occur 18 months earlier in utero.
 
2014-03-27 12:07:07 PM
Hot beef injections.
 
2014-03-27 12:17:57 PM
Because the mom was vaccinated when she was a child, dur!
 
2014-03-27 12:23:14 PM

Tigger: This is the central problem of anti-vaxx idiocy that I have been raising since Wakefield and his farkwit army gained prominence.

Autism is a disorder of neuronal migration. This happens in the second trimester. The neurons move to make the brain. In autistic brains they move to all sorts of wrong places. If I were to show you a non-clinical brain and an autistic brain you can see the structural differences with the naked eye. Big stuff too: Five layers or cortex where there should be six and so on.

Any theory linking vaccines and autism must have at least a theory of how vaccines given at 1 year create changes that we know occur 18 months earlier in utero.


They use Obama's time machine. D'uh!
 
2014-03-27 12:24:10 PM

factoryconnection: This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.


"how do vaccines make you pregnant?" begs the question. "autism starts during pregnancy" does not. Half credit.
 
2014-03-27 12:29:09 PM

gilgigamesh: factoryconnection: This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.

"how do vaccines make you pregnant?" begs the question. "autism starts during pregnancy" does not. Half credit.


OP wasn't being literal about vaccines causing pregnancy.  The "making you pregnant" is more of a conceptional thing.
 
2014-03-27 12:29:49 PM

Kome: Tigger: This is the central problem of anti-vaxx idiocy that I have been raising since Wakefield and his farkwit army gained prominence.

Autism is a disorder of neuronal migration. This happens in the second trimester. The neurons move to make the brain. In autistic brains they move to all sorts of wrong places. If I were to show you a non-clinical brain and an autistic brain you can see the structural differences with the naked eye. Big stuff too: Five layers or cortex where there should be six and so on.

Any theory linking vaccines and autism must have at least a theory of how vaccines given at 1 year create changes that we know occur 18 months earlier in utero.

They use Obama's time machine. D'uh!


It seems so obvious now. What a waste of time that education in neuroscience turned out to be.
 
2014-03-27 12:32:16 PM
I'm certain that all the famed anti-vaxxers will say, "Oops, sorry about that. It appears we'd jumped to a conclusion about thimerosal and pharmaceutical conspiracies and all that. Please, carry on."

I'm just sure of it.
 
2014-03-27 12:35:40 PM

Diogenes: I_Am_Weasel: Vaccines, like pregnancy, start with a small prick.

Also some overlap in the phrase, "I'll try to make this as painless as possible."


Or, I'll just put the tip in.
 
2014-03-27 12:55:53 PM

gilgigamesh: "how do vaccines make you pregnant?" begs the question. "autism starts during pregnancy" does not. Half credit.


Okay, okay... so would "Autism develops during pregnancy, which leads us to beg the question: how do vaccines make you pregnant?" be a valid construct of the rhetorical fallacy?
 
2014-03-27 01:11:19 PM

factoryconnection: This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.


And in an autism thread too, must be significant somehow.

Also anyone still linking vaccinations to the development of autism really is showing off how farking ignorant they are WRT the current research findings.
 
2014-03-27 01:15:11 PM

Tigger: This is the central problem of anti-vaxx idiocy that I have been raising since Wakefield and his farkwit army gained prominence.

Autism is a disorder of neuronal migration. This happens in the second trimester. The neurons move to make the brain. In autistic brains they move to all sorts of wrong places. If I were to show you a non-clinical brain and an autistic brain you can see the structural differences with the naked eye. Big stuff too: Five layers or cortex where there should be six and so on.

Any theory linking vaccines and autism must have at least a theory of how vaccines given at 1 year create changes that we know occur 18 months earlier in utero.


I think I suggested some kind of tachyon bombardment of liquid mercury in a thread long ago but it figured that was science fictiony gobbledygook.
 
2014-03-27 01:17:14 PM
http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

/just a small PSA for all you doubters
 
2014-03-27 01:18:30 PM
Kinda sucks that they need dead babies to continue the studies. =/
 
2014-03-27 01:19:59 PM

factoryconnection: This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.


It's a modern use.  Another modern meaning is to avoid the question.  The classic meaning is to assume the conclusion of the argument.

/grammarians do it in style
 
2014-03-27 01:20:58 PM
Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.
 
2014-03-27 01:21:41 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: I think I suggested some kind of tachyon bombardment of liquid mercury in a thread long ago but it figured that was science fictiony gobbledygook.


You might be able to get some traction on that over at Conservapedia.
 
2014-03-27 01:22:23 PM

gilgigamesh: factoryconnection: This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.

"how do vaccines make you pregnant?" begs the question. "autism starts during pregnancy" does not. Half credit.


Incorrect. You are assuming the debate use with colloquial use.

English: where words and phrases can mean different things in different contexts and under different circumstances.

Seriously. Arguing that this is an incorrect use of "begs the question" is like arguing that "gay" means "happy" and not "homosexual".
 
2014-03-27 01:22:58 PM

I_Am_Weasel: The "making you pregnant" is more of a conceptional thing.


I get the joke!
 
2014-03-27 01:22:59 PM
Conflating, not assuming.

Mixed phrases in my head and garbled the sentence.
 
2014-03-27 01:26:06 PM
What I find interesting is that the study states that autism could be caused by a problem in the creation of the cortical layers, that the process "was disrupted". This seems to imply that it is not genetic, but rather due to an outside influence. Perhaps this means that autism could be defeated through improvements in prenatal care?

/No, it just means the mothers shouldn't have been vaccinated.
 
2014-03-27 01:40:01 PM

Unoriginal_Username: http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

/just a small PSA for all you doubters


Direct and concise, I wish more documentation was like that.
 
2014-03-27 01:50:08 PM

star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.


This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.
 
2014-03-27 01:56:12 PM

Mikey1969: star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.

This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.


Drugs that affect brain chemistry might have an impact on developing brains!   What is this madness?!?
 
2014-03-27 01:59:29 PM
Don't worry, the Anti-Vaccinators will just start claiming it's due to the pregnant mothers vaccinations, or deny the study is valid. One can always find an alternative explanation.
 
2014-03-27 02:02:34 PM

Diogenes: Mikey1969: star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.

This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.

Drugs that affect brain chemistry might have an impact on developing brains!   What is this madness?!?


I know, crazy-talk!!!
 
2014-03-27 02:07:30 PM

Mikey1969: Diogenes: Mikey1969: star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.

This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.

Drugs that affect brain chemistry might have an impact on developing brains!   What is this madness?!?

I know, crazy-talk!!!


So if this pans out, does that mean big-pharma is actually covering up the true cause of autism because they make too much money on anti-depressants?

/Why yes, I do hold lots of stock in tinfoil....why do you ask?
 
2014-03-27 02:07:46 PM

star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.


Yup, they are already known to cause a shiatton of birth defects as it is.  Which is why I am terrified of getting pregnant while taking the SSRI I've been on for years.  I do use birth control, but I am pretty sure that if I ever get pregnant by accident while taking it, I'll just automatically get an abortion due to the risks.  If I ever decide to have a kid, I will make sure I am off the meds for at least a year, if not more, before attempting to get pregnant.
 
2014-03-27 02:11:59 PM

JayCab: What I find interesting is that the study states that autism could be caused by a problem in the creation of the cortical layers, that the process "was disrupted". This seems to imply that it is not genetic, but rather due to an outside influence. Perhaps this means that autism could be defeated through improvements in prenatal care?

/No, it just means the mothers shouldn't have been vaccinated.


Genetic does not mean heritable. A gene holds instructions for building a protein. Whether it is "activated" or not often is triggered by hormones. What protein is coded for is hereditary but whether it is activated or not is often environmental. All this growth and development is driven by very subtle interactions, starting with gravity and ending up with what contaminants are introduced from the mother's diet without anyone realizing it.

The problem in talking about this is the blame game, the notion that it has to be someone's fault. And typically there is no way to predict these outcomes, and the mother can end up blaming herself because she feels someone must be to blame.

The fact is that autism has always been there, we simply haven't measured it because it wasn't until the last several decades that it became an identified problem in classrooms. Modern education has no allowances for autism. Adults develop coping mechanisms so aren't considered pathological like children are. And even the contaminant hypothesis doesn't adequately address that fact, which to my mind means that nobody can predict or prevent the rise of autism in any given fetus. Just talking about it, however, leaves parents wondering "maybe if we had moved, maybe if we hadn't drank that bottled water, maybe if we'd switched to bottled water, etc etc" and still blaming themselves.

Because as the Jenny McCarthy phenomenon has illustrated someone will be blamed regardless of the facts.
 
2014-03-27 02:12:38 PM

factoryconnection: This may be a correct use of "begging the question."  Having never seen one on Fark, however, I'm not sure.  The End Times may or may not be nigh.


20/10, best troll in the history of fark.
 
2014-03-27 02:20:14 PM
Kome [TotalFark]

They use Obama's time machine. D'uh!
We can't ask him.

First he's not granting interviews, second he's to busy being worried about vaccines causing autism.
 
2014-03-27 02:21:39 PM

Driedsponge: Mikey1969: Diogenes: Mikey1969: star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.

This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.

Drugs that affect brain chemistry might have an impact on developing brains!   What is this madness?!?

I know, crazy-talk!!!

So if this pans out, does that mean big-pharma is actually covering up the true cause of autism because they make too much money on anti-depressants?

/Why yes, I do hold lots of stock in tinfoil....why do you ask?


Maybe they're just conveniently ignoring it?
 
2014-03-27 02:22:34 PM

Mikey1969: star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.

This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.


Might be worth looking into adderall or ritalin as a cause, too. Funny how dosing kids on chemicals very, very close to methamphetamine might have some drawbacks in the long term..
 
2014-03-27 02:28:57 PM

Somaticasual: Might be worth looking into adderall or ritalin as a cause, too. Funny how dosing kids on chemicals very, very close to methamphetamine might have some drawbacks in the long term..


I assume you mean for people that were on prescription stimulants that later had children, right?  Just checking.

DrKillPatient: Don't worry, the Anti-Vaccinators will just start claiming it's due to the pregnant mothers vaccinations, or deny the study is valid. One can always find an alternative explanation.


I was prompted to read the comment thread about this story on Npr.org and in addition to a Fark-worthy snark-fest all over it, there are several anti-vax diehards trotting out every thing they can to dispute it, including what you suggest.  It isn't going well for them.
 
2014-03-27 02:36:22 PM

Somaticasual: Mikey1969: star_topology: Let's look into antidepressants, plzkthx.

Crazy, depressed, vulnerable wimmen. Just my type.

This would fall in line with the rise in autism as well as the fact that i didn't know anyone with an autistic kid in Az, yet within 4 years of moving to Utah, I worked with 2 people, and knew 3 more with autistic kids. Utah has some of the highest rates of antidepressant use in the US, and since a lot of the older kids with autism are n their mid to late teens, this would dovetail rather nicely with the increase in antidepressant use in the early to mid 90s.

Not saying that correlation proves causation, but that the particular theory has a lot of little things that fall into line, and I think should be explored further.

Might be worth looking into adderall or ritalin as a cause, too. Funny how dosing kids on chemicals very, very close to methamphetamine might have some drawbacks in the long term..


Yeah, I understand that some kids have real issues, but WAY too many people just throw chemicals at their kids as a solution for them acting like kids.
 
2014-03-27 02:36:26 PM

factoryconnection: I assume you mean for people that were on prescription stimulants that later had children, right? Just checking


Not sure on that one. Could easily be on either end, if not both. Though i suppose for the purposes of this article, it'd have to be pregnancy. Since the children of the 80s are in the later part of the childbearing years, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was during pregnancy..
 
2014-03-27 02:45:04 PM
So...how long until its detectable early enough in the pregnancy for abortion?  I would think that's an important issue here. Like with Down's Syndrome you can get a high functioning person or a decorative human.
 
2014-03-27 02:45:44 PM

JayCab: What I find interesting is that the study states that autism could be caused by a problem in the creation of the cortical layers, that the process "was disrupted". This seems to imply that it is not genetic, but rather due to an outside influence. Perhaps this means that autism could be defeated through improvements in prenatal care?

/No, it just means the mothers shouldn't have been vaccinated.


There is a high genetic component to autism but it does not present with 100% comorbidity in identical twins. This means there are environmental factors as well.

It's technically a 'polygenic multifactorial environmental model' which is science for we don't have a farking clue.
 
2014-03-27 02:47:01 PM

Maggie_Luna: So...how long until its detectable early enough in the pregnancy for abortion?  I would think that's an important issue here. Like with Down's Syndrome you can get a high functioning person or a decorative human.


It is only detectable through behavioral observation - there is no in utero test for autism as it's caused by lots and lots of genes and we don't know how.

A conclusive diagnosis can in fact only be made via autopsy. Whether we should but jenny mccarthy's head off or not is left as an exercise for the reader.
 
2014-03-27 02:51:14 PM
Driedsponge:

I know, crazy-talk!!!

So if this pans out, does that mean big-pharma is actually covering up the true cause of autism because they make too much money on anti-depressants?

/Why yes, I do hold lots of stock in tinfoil....why do you ask?


Most doctors will tell you that the cause is probably a mixture of genetic disposition tied in with some environmental trigger.   My observation is there is a lot of study on the genetic component, but not a lot on the environmental aspect.  I think that is because whatever it turns out to be, it is probably pervasive in the environment (think mercury in fish, for example) and the resulting lawsuits would probably bankrupt the entire nation.
 
2014-03-27 03:04:05 PM
That's all we need, a bunch of fragile, depressed women whose depression caused their kid to have autism. Should either increase the supplies of antidepressants or suicide booths.
 
2014-03-27 03:04:46 PM

Diogenes: Crotchrocket Slim: I think I suggested some kind of tachyon bombardment of liquid mercury in a thread long ago but it figured that was science fictiony gobbledygook.

You might be able to get some traction on that over at Conservapedia.


There are just as many lefty loons that are anti-vaxxers, if not more. Look at the Pacific Northwest vaccination rates. Hell, Mississippi is the hardest state in the US to deny your kids vaccines.
 
2014-03-27 03:23:02 PM

machoprogrammer: Diogenes: Crotchrocket Slim: I think I suggested some kind of tachyon bombardment of liquid mercury in a thread long ago but it figured that was science fictiony gobbledygook.

You might be able to get some traction on that over at Conservapedia.

There are just as many lefty loons that are anti-vaxxers, if not more. Look at the Pacific Northwest vaccination rates. Hell, Mississippi is the hardest state in the US to deny your kids vaccines.


Which I fully acknowledged much earlier in the thread.

And which has nothing to do with zany crap and bizarre explanations posted on Conservapedia in general.
 
2014-03-27 03:24:09 PM

I_Am_Weasel: Vaccines, like pregnancy, start with a small prick.


IT'S A DECENT SIZE!
 
2014-03-27 03:41:48 PM

Rent Party: Driedsponge:

I know, crazy-talk!!!

So if this pans out, does that mean big-pharma is actually covering up the true cause of autism because they make too much money on anti-depressants?

/Why yes, I do hold lots of stock in tinfoil....why do you ask?

Most doctors will tell you that the cause is probably a mixture of genetic disposition tied in with some environmental trigger.   My observation is there is a lot of study on the genetic component, but not a lot on the environmental aspect.  I think that is because whatever it turns out to be, it is probably pervasive in the environment (think mercury in fish, for example) and the resulting lawsuits would probably bankrupt the entire nation.


... except that mercury hasn't been used in vaccines for decades, nor has it ever been found to have even a correlative relationship to developing autism even in cases of in utero vaccination.
 
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